in fact

事實上

I was invited by the Chinese Anti-xiejiao Association, which is part of the CCP,

中共權下的反邪教協會曾邀請我和其他學者一同探討邪教的定義

together with several other scholars to discuss the definition of xiejiao.

很明顯，在邪教問題上達成共識是幾乎不可能的

It was very clear that it's almost impossible to come to an agreement about xiejiao

原因有兩個

for two reasons.

第一，大約三十年前西方的學者就不再使用「cult」這個詞了

Number one, some 30 years ago, scholars in the West stopped using the word "cult."

當然，一些媒體、記者和政治活躍人士仍然會使用這個詞

The word "cult" is still used, of course,

但是我們不用了

by the media, journalists, political activists,

早在三十年前，這個詞就不再出現在學術研究領域裡了

but we don't use the word "cult."

為什麼呢？

The word "cult" disappeared from academic studies 30 years ago.

因為使用這個詞就意味著我們要對一些教派作出價值判斷

Why?

而學者一般不作這樣的判斷

Because the word "cult" implies a value judgment on groups,

第二，我們覺得把「邪教」翻譯成「cult」是不對的

and scholars do not give value judgments.

現在人們一般認為「cult」這個詞起源於19世紀的歐洲

But there is a second reason. We believe it is wrong to translate xiejiao as "cult."

然而「邪教」這個說法卻起源於明朝

Cult in the modern sense is a word originating in the early 19th century in Europe,

所以把「cult」翻譯成「邪教」屬於犯了年代誤植的錯誤

xiejiao originated in the Ming era,

中國的法律給出的邪教定義

so it's anachronistic to translate xiejiao as "cult."

和歐洲過去一百年所使用的邪教定義毫不相干

The definition of xiejiao in Chinese law

你們可能知道

has nothing to do with any definition of cult used in Europe

中國最高法院和中國最高人民檢察院於2017年初給邪教下的定義

in the past hundred years.

（其實這個詞在英文裡根本不存在）

You already heard about the definition

他們把神化首要分子以及散播迷信邪說的組織定性為邪教

given by the Chinese Supreme Court and the Chinese Procuratorate,

西方在過去的一百年已不談論cult了，我們也不談論cult

this word doesn't really exist in English by the way, in early 2017,

沒有人會認同上述定義

saying xiejiao are groups deifying their leaders or spreading superstitious fallacies.

因為散播迷信邪說可以用來指控任何一種宗教

Now, nobody who talked about cults in the West in the last hundred years,

誰能決定什麼樣的教義屬於迷信

and we no longer talk about cults.

什麼樣的教義屬於真正的教義呢？

Nobody will recognize this definition,

邪教這個詞在中國有一段特殊的歷史

because spreading superstitious fallacies is an accusation

它被用來查禁那些被政府定罪為異端教派的組織

which can be used against any religion.

而且正如我剛才所說的，這個說法起源於明代

Who decides what doctrines are superstitious

所以我建議不要把「邪教」翻譯成「cult」

and what doctrines are really religious?

就使用漢語拼音xiejiao即可

So xiejiao has a specific history in China

我此行去中國和中共當局展開的對話相當艱難

to ban heterodox groups accused of being against governments

我認為邪教的定義有三種

and that, as I said, is from the Ming era.

如果我們問三自教堂的牧師怎麼理解邪教

So I would recommend not to translate xiejiao as cults

事實上我們確實也問了

and to leave it in Chinese "xiejiao."

他們會把邪教定義為異端教派

When I visited China for this very difficult dialogue with Chinese authorities,

即不相信三位一體這一傳統基督教教義

I understood there are three different definitions of xiejiao.

不相信傳統基督教對耶穌基督的認識的教派

If we talk with Three-Self pastors,

那麼對他們而言，什麼是邪教呢？

and we did,

邪教就是異端教派

Three-Self pastors will define xiejiao as heretical groups,

我們不喜歡某個教派的教義，這個教派就是邪教

groups that do not believe in the traditional Christian theology of Trinity,

現在有的中共學者對邪教的定義是借用以往西方對邪教的舊定義

traditional Christian ideas about Jesus Christ.

他們認為邪教就是通過洗腦來控制成員的教派

So for them, what is xiejiao?

從某個角度來看，這讓人覺得可笑

It's a heretical group,

因為「洗腦」這個詞

it's a group whose theology we do not like.

是美國中情局為了給毛澤東和中國作反面宣傳而新造的詞

Now CCP scholars borrow an old definition of cults from the West

換句話說，什麼叫洗腦呢？

and they define cults as groups using something called brainwashing

愛德華·亨特曾是美國中情局的一個特務

to control their members.

他寫了介紹中國使用洗腦手段的第一本書

This is very funny in a way

根據他對洗腦的定義，洗腦是邪惡的中共所使用的卑劣手段

because the word "brainwashing"

所以，看到中共如今用「洗腦」這個詞來定義「邪教」真的是很有趣

was coined by the CIA as a tool for the propaganda against Mao Zedong and China.

英語裡原本沒有brainwash（洗腦）這個詞

In other words, what was brainwashing?

它是上個世紀五十年代中情局為了給中國作反面宣傳而新造的詞

Brainwashing as defined by Edward Hunter,

第三種定義主要是我們西方人提出的

a CIA agent who wrote the first book about brainwashing in China,

我們的想法是：

brainwashing was something very bad the evil Chinese Communists do.

你想保留「邪教」這個詞，因為你已經用了好幾個世紀了，行

So, to see the Chinese Communist now using the word brainwashing is

但是唯一一種不帶歧視性地使用這個詞的辦法

in a way very interesting.

就是把它用於被我稱為犯罪宗派的教派身上

This word did not exist in English language

當然有的教派確實具有犯罪性質

and was invented in the 50s by the CIA for their propaganda against China.

但是「具有犯罪性質」指的是它們有犯罪行徑

The third definition is mostly the definition we from the West proposed,

在民主社會，不應該有人因其信仰或想法而被起訴

say,

但是很顯然，不管一個人是否有宗教信仰

Okay, you want to keep the word xiejiao

如果他或她有犯罪行為，都可以將其起訴

because you have been using it for many centuries,

那什麼是犯罪宗派呢？

but the only way to use xiejiao in a non-discriminatory way

我向中國當局堅持表明道

is to use it for what I call criminal religious movements.

如果你們想保留「邪教」這個詞

Of course there are religious movements that are criminal,

那麼請把邪教定義為犯罪宗派

but criminal means they have a criminal behavior.

你們應避免使用像「洗腦」這類的概念

Nobody in a democratic society should be prosecuted for ideas or beliefs,

因為西方學者一致認為洗腦是不存在的

but clearly, people, religious or not religious, doesn't matter,

另外，也不要再去問和你們關係友好的三自教堂的牧師

can be prosecuted for their criminal behavior.

什麼樣的教會是異端，什麼樣的教會屬於基督教教會

So what is a criminal religious movement?

因為非宗教國家不能使用宗教標準去定義什麼是犯罪宗派

And I insisted with the Chinese authorities,

除此之外，俄羅斯也使用了一個錯誤的「邪教」概念

"If you want to keep xiejiao,

俄羅斯今年對耶和華見證派進行肅清

please use a definition of xiejiao as criminal religious movement.

他們用「肅清」這個詞，即查禁、宣告非法

You should avoid ideas like brainwashing

他們還列出了一份名單，上面寫著其他37個要肅清的組織

because there is a consensus among scholars in the West

俄羅斯司法部把這些組織定為極端宗派

that brainwashing does not exist,

定性它們為極端宗派的主要標準是什麼呢？

and you should avoid asking the friendly Christian pastors in the Three-Self

俄羅斯最高法院認為

what church is heretic, what church is Christian and not heretic,

所謂極端宗派

because secular state cannot use theological criteria to define criminal movement.

就指那些認為只有自己是真宗教而其他宗教都是假宗教的宗派

Another wrong notion is the one used in Russia.

但是這樣一種定義其實適用於許多宗教

Russia liquidated this year, they use this word "liquidating,"

比如伊斯蘭教、天主教等等

banning, putting out of the law the Jehovah's witnesses

所以，這也是一種關於邪教的錯誤概念

and they have a list of another 37 groups they plan to liquidate.

如果一個教派認為自己有真理

These groups according to Russian Ministry of Justice are extremists.

不管我們是否喜歡這個教派，我們都不能以此定它是犯罪宗派

What is the main criterion to define these groups as extremists?

因為稱自己有真理是宗教界常有的事

The Russian Supreme Court says

所以，我對邪教或者犯罪宗派的定義就是

an extremist group

該宗派提倡或者一貫實施普通罪

is a group saying we preach the true religion and the other religions are false.

其中包括恐怖主義、暴力、強姦、虐待兒童

But this definition applies to many religions,

甚至重大經濟犯罪

Islam, Catholicism and many others.

接下來我會簡單分析一下構成邪教或犯罪宗派的五要素

So this is again a wrong notion of xiejiao.

第一點，邪教指的是宗教派別

We cannot say, if a group believes they have the truth,

有時候中文使用的詞是「偽宗教」

we may like we may not like, but we cannot say it's criminal,

我們不贊同使用這個詞

and it happens very frequently in religion.

因為要定義什麼是偽宗教，你得首先相信兩點

So, my definition of xiejiao or criminal religious movement

而事實上這兩點都是不成立的

is a group which, or a religious movement that

其一，你得相信你知道宗教的真正定義

either advocates or consistently engages in common crimes

但如果你問學者什麼是宗教，你會得到一百種不同的答案

including terrorism, violence, rape, child abuse

其二，你得相信所有宗教都是好的、友善的，能給人帶來益處

and even major economic crimes.

然而，這一條也是不成立的

Now I want to quickly examine five elements of

很多宗教都犯過罪

this definition of xiejiao or criminal religious movement.

所以一個教派既屬於宗派同時也犯罪，這是完全有可能的

Number one, xiejiao are religious movements.

因此，我們將邪教定義為「犯罪宗派」

Sometimes the Chinese use the word "pseudo-religion."

第二點，要具有犯罪性質

We do not agree,

一個宗派必須是以集體的形式犯罪或者為罪行找正當理由

because to define "pseudo-religion" you should believe two things,

聲稱這些罪行是正面的，並且鼓動人們應該這麼做

and these two things are false.

舉個例子

Number one, you should believe you know the true definition of religion,

有些天主教祭司有戀童癖

and if you ask scholars, there are a hundred different definitions of religion.

但是這並不代表整個天主教教派是犯罪宗派

Number two, you should believe that all religions are nice, kind and bring flowers.

為什麼呢？

This is again not true.

因為天主教並不提倡戀童癖

Many religions commit crimes,

這個教派確實犯了不少錯誤

so it's perfectly possible that you are a religious movement

但是一般情況下

but you commit illegal activities,

如果某個祭司被發現有戀童癖，他會被驅逐出教會

so we call criminal religious movement.

有的恐怖分子是信伊斯蘭教的，或者自稱信伊斯蘭教

Number two, to be criminal,

但這並不代表伊斯蘭教是個犯罪宗派

the religious movement should commit crimes as a group, or justify the crimes,

因為大部分穆斯林信徒認為這些恐怖分子不代表伊斯蘭教

saying these crimes are good and people should do them.

所以說，有的宗教確實有犯罪分子

For example,

但是要說整個教派是犯罪宗派

there are Catholic priests who are pedophiles,

必須得是這個教派提倡犯罪、認可犯罪，且為犯罪行為辯護

but that does not make the Catholic Church a criminal group.

第三點，邪教所犯的罪應該是重罪

Why?

比如凶殺、強姦、性虐待，甚至重大金融犯罪

Because the Catholic Church does not advocate pedophilia.

比如大規模國際洗錢活動

The church made many mistakes,

確實有這樣的案例

but normally,

如果一個教派僅僅是有些行政違法行為，或者是涉稅違法行為

when a Catholic priest is identified as a pedophile, he is kicked off of the church.

就不能說它是犯罪宗派

There are Islamic terrorists or terrorists who claim to be Islamic,

很多教派在稅務方面都有點問題

but that doesn't make Islam a criminal religious group

第四點，邪教所犯的罪應該是普通罪

because most Muslims believe these terrorists do not represent Islam.

就是不管罪犯有沒有宗教信仰只要實施了該罪行就構成犯罪

So there are criminals in religion,

凶殺，這個在任何情況下都屬於犯罪

but the religion is criminal

成為一個邪教，這不屬於犯罪

only when it advocates, justifies, hails the criminal activities.

洗腦罪也不屬於犯罪，因為學者們並不承認洗腦的存在

Number three, crimes should be serious crimes,

身體虐待、打人，屬於犯罪

homicide, rape, sexual abuse, even enormous financial crimes,

心理虐待，我們不知道這個是什麼

huge networks of international money laundering, for example.

所以邪教犯的罪都應該是普通罪

There are cases.

第五點，所有罪行都應該由一個真正的法庭查明

If a religious group is only guilty of some minor administrative or tax violation,

這點對中國很重要

it's not a criminal movement.

這樣的法庭應該走正當的法律程序

Most religions have some problems with taxes.

給予被告《世界人權宣言》中要求的保障

Number four, crimes should be common crimes,

既然你被指控了，你就得知道自己為什麼被指控

crimes which will be crimes even if they were committed by non-religious people.

你也應該請一個律師，得是獨立律師

Homicide, always a crime;

而不是法庭指定的、跟法庭關係好的律師

crime of being a cult, that's not a crime;

所以，你的案件得走正常程序

crime of using brainwashing,

得通過這個正常程序來查明你所犯的罪

that's not a crime because scholars do not believe brainwashing exists.

好，我們再回到全能神教會的案例上

So physical abuse, beating people, yes;

中國官方稱全能神教會為邪教

psychological abuse, we don't know what it is.

如果我們問三自教堂或者其他家庭教會的牧師的話

So they should be common crimes.

他們會說

Number five, these crimes should be ascertained by a real court.

對，全能神教會是邪教，因為我們不喜歡他們的教義

That's very important for China.

當然，全能神教會的教義確實是新教義

It should be a court where the defendants have the guarantees

是一個新版本的基督教

requested by Universal Declaration of Human Rights due process.

但正如我們剛剛所提到的

You are accused, you should know what you are accused of.

這一點並不能證明一個宗派是犯罪宗派

You should have a lawyer, independent lawyer,

我們可以不贊同全能神教會的教義

not lawyer appointed by the court and friend of the court.

但是宗教自由包括信仰任何教義的自由

So you should have a regular process

當然，人們也有批評你們的教義的自由

and your crimes should be ascertained through a regular process.

但是，到底什麼教義是真教義還有待討論

Now let's come to the case of The Church of Almighty God.

只是任何人不能因接受了錯誤的教義而淪為階下囚

The Church of Almighty God according to Chinese authorities is xiejiao.

但現在中共和三自教堂的說法不一樣

Now if we ask the pastors of the Three-Self and even of some house churches,

中共認為全能神教會是邪教

they will say,

因為他們犯下了非常嚴重的罪行，凶殺罪是其中之一

"Yes, it's a xiejiao because their theology is a theology we do not like."

所以問題的關鍵就是這些指控到底是否屬實，是否已被證實

And of course, the theology of The Church of Almighty God is a new theology,

中共對全能神教會控訴之一就是你們想推翻政府

is a new version of Christianity.

全能神教會的確不喜歡中共政府，或者至少可以說不喜歡中共

But as we saw,

而且還把中共比作聖經啟示錄裡的大紅龍

this does not make a movement criminal.

大紅龍是聖經裡面的一個很不好的角色

We can disagree with the theology of The Church of Almighty God,

但是，只要你仔細研讀全能神教會的著作

but freedom of religion is freedom of following any theology.

我覺得很清楚的一點就是

Of course it's also freedom to criticize your theology.

全能神教會並不主張通過革命或者武裝起義

But that's a free debate what theology is true,

來和中共以及政府對抗

and nobody should go to jail for following the wrong theology.

這只是個宗教觀點

Now the CCP, different from the Three-Self churches, says something different.

就是說根據聖經的預言，中共政府將自取滅亡

CCP says The Church of Almighty God is xiejiao,

自取滅亡的意思就是

because they committed very serious crimes including homicide.

全能神教會並不主張通過武裝革命來反對中共

So the question is

而且這本身也是很難的一件事

whether these accusations are true or false, are proved or are not proved.

另一項常聽到的控訴就是15年前，也就是2002年

One accusation the CCP raises against The Church of Almighty God

全能神教會綁架了中華福音團契的34名牧師

is you want to overthrow the government.

以此讓他們加入全能神教會

It is certainly true that

該案件十分撲朔迷離，如同小說情節一樣

The Church of Almighty God does not like the Chinese government, to say the least,

學者們應繼續研究此案

or does not like the Chinese Communist Party,

不過就目前為止，我可以說這些指控並沒有得到證實

and compares the CCP to the red dragon of the Book of Revelation in the Bible,

警方沒有調查過此案，這個是查得到記錄的

which is a very bad character in the Bible.

另外，此案也並沒有經過庭審

However, if you read carefully the literature of The Church of Almighty God,

在中國沒有一個人因為此案而受審並且被定罪

to me, it's very clear that

所以，我們至少可以說這些指控沒有得到證實

The Church of Almighty God does not advocate revolution or an armed uprising

正如你們在視頻裡看到的

against the CCP and the government,

有一個事件被中共利用並且傳播到全世界

but it's a theological idea

以此作為其定性全能神教會為邪教或犯罪宗派的藉口

that because of prophecies in the Bible, the CCP regime will fall by itself.

該事件就是2014年發生在招遠的麥當勞凶殺案

"By itself," meaning

如果你上網搜索的話，你就會看到有兩萬個網頁上

The Church of Almighty God does not advocate an armed revolution against,

都是關於全能神教會組織並實施了麥當勞凶殺案的控訴

which will also be very difficult of course, against CCP.

我也贊同發生在麥當勞餐廳的謀殺是駭人聽聞的罪行

Another accusation heard very often is that 15 years ago, in 2002,

該罪行嚴重到，如果全能神教會真的需要為此案負責

The Church of Almighty God kidnapped

單憑這一件事就足以定全能神教會是邪教或犯罪宗派

34 pastors of another church, the China Gospel Fellowship,

那麼真正需要解決的問題就是：

in order to convert them to The Church of Almighty God.

麥當勞案的凶手到底是誰？

This is a very obscure episode, and even the object of some novels.

此案發生在2014年5月28日

Scholars should still study it.

六名傳教士走入招遠市的一家麥當勞餐廳

However, what I can say today is these accusations are not proved.

並開始向食客索要電話號碼

There has been no police investigation, whose records are available;

一位名叫吳碩艷的女士拒絕提供自己的電話號碼後被打死

there has been no trial, no trial;

通過餐廳的監控錄像我們可以看到這位女士是被毆打致死的

nobody has been tried and convicted in China for this crime.

但問題是：這些人到底是何許人士？

So at the very least, we can say it's not proved.

我寫了一份關於麥當勞凶殺案的研究報告

As you saw in the video,

所有的參考文件，這點很重要

there is one single incident which is spread by CCP all over the world

我寫這份報告時的所有的參考文件都是由中共發表的

to justify The Church of Almighty God is really xiejiao, criminal religious movement,

我沒有從全能神教會收到任何文件

and that's the McDonald's murder in 2014 in Zhaoyuan.

我在中共提供的這些文件的基礎上進行研究調查

If you go to the Internet, there are 20,000 websites

大部分是案犯在庭審以及在獄中接受採訪的文件

accusing The Church of Almighty God

很顯然，這些人明確地說道：

of having perpetrated or organized the McDonald's murder.

「我們稱自己為全能神

Now I agree that the McDonald's murder is a horrific crime,

但我們和趙維山（全能神教會的祭司）的教會不是同一個教會

crime so bad that even alone

我們用一樣的名字，但是我們是兩個不同的教會。」

it will be enough to call The Church of Almighty God a xiejiao or criminal movement,

張帆因這起謀殺案而被處決

if The Church of Almighty God was responsible for it.

你可以在這裡看到她，她是該團體的領導人之一

So, the real question is:

她說

Who did the McDonald's murder?

「趙維山的教會（也就是我們大家都知道的全能神教會）

The crime was on May 28th, 2014,

是假的全能神

six missionaries entered a McDonald in the city of Zhaoyuan

我們是真的全能神。」

and started preaching and asking clients for their cell phone number.

「他們是假的，我們是真的」，這就是說這是兩個不同的團體

A lady called Wu Shuoyan didn't give the phone number and was beaten to death.

除此之外，這個小團體的成員從來沒有超過三十個

There were surveillance cameras so we can see the poor lady beaten to death.