字幕列表 影片播放
Translator: Joseph Geni Reviewer: Morton Bast
譯者: NAN-KUN WU 審譯者: Marssi Draw
This will not be a speech
這場演講
like any one I have ever given.
和我以前的演講完全不同
I will talk to you today about
今天我要告訴你們
the failure of leadership in global politics
全球政治以及全球化經濟領導的失敗
and in our globalizing economy.
我不會提出那些感覺還不錯、 現成的解決辦法
And I won't provide some feel-good, ready-made solutions.
但在演講最後,我會激勵你們去重新思考 事實上,是冒險
But I will in the end urge you
並參與我視為全球民主的進化過程
to rethink, actually take risks, and get involved
失敗的領導
in what I see as a global evolution
何謂現今的失敗領導?
of democracy.
為何民主失效了?
Failure of leadership.
嗯,我相信失敗的領導表示 我們把自己抽離了整個過程
What is the failure of leadership today?
請容我根據我的經驗給你們一些觀點
And why is our democracy not working?
讓你們退一步,或許也能讓你們了解
Well, I believe that the failure of leadership is the fact
何以處理現今的挑戰是如此艱難
that we have taken you out of the process.
以及為何政治會步入一個死胡同
So let me, from my personal experiences,
我們從頭開始說吧
give you an insight, so that you can step back
就從民主開始
and maybe understand why it is so difficult to cope
嗯,如果你回到古希臘
with the challenges of today and why politics
它是種啟示、是種探索
is going down a blind alley.
告訴我們有成為 我們自己命運主宰的潛力
Let's start from the beginning.
得以檢視、學習、想像
Let's start from democracy.
進而塑造出一個更美好的生活
Well, if you go back to the Ancient Greeks,
民主就是政治上的創新
it was a revelation, a discovery,
它保護了這樣的自由
that we had the potential, together,
由於我們從畏懼中解放
to be masters of our own fate,
不論我們的內心住著暴君或是教條
to be able to examine, to learn, to imagine,
都可以成為主宰
and then to design a better life.
民主是種政治創新,它限制了我們 意圖擁有極大財富與權力的天性
And democracy was the political innovation
不論這種權力是來自於暴君或是大祭司
which protected this freedom,
嗯,14 歲的時候,我開始了解這件事
because we were liberated from fear
我試著逃避回家作業
so that our minds in fact,
躡手躡腳地走到客廳聽著我父母
whether they be despots or dogmas,
和他們朋友們的激烈辯論
could be the protagonists.
瞧,希臘當時受到強權控制
Democracy was the political innovation that allowed us
它綁住了整個國家
to limit the power, whether it was of tyrants
我的父親曾帶領了一個有願景的運動
or of high priests,
嘗試重現希臘
their natural tendency to maximize power and wealth.
在那裡,自由當道
Well, I first began to understand this
而且人民得以掌握他們的國家
when I was 14 years old.
我曾經參加過他的好幾個活動
I used to, to try to avoid homework,
你可以看到我站在他旁邊
sneak down to the living room and listen to my parents
我是那個比較年輕的,靠這邊
and their friends debate heatedly.
你們可能認不太出來
You see, then Greece was
因為我那時候的頭髮有分邊
under control of a very powerful establishment
(笑聲)
which was strangling the country,
1967 年,選舉將近
and my father was heading a promising movement
活動進行得很順利
to reimagine Greece, to imagine a Greece
整屋子的人興奮不已
where freedom reigned and where, maybe,
我們都能嗅到 希臘即將邁進很大的一步
the people, the citizens, could actually rule their own country.
然後有一天晚上 軍用卡車直接停在我家前面
I used to join him in many of the campaigns,
士兵衝進門
and you can see me here next to him.
他們在陽台上找到了我
I'm the younger one there, to the side.
一位拿著機關槍的士官走向我
You may not recognize me because
槍口指著我的頭,說:
I used to part my hair differently there.
「告訴我你爸在哪,不然你就沒命了。」
(Laughter)
躲在附近的父親自己走出來了
So in 1967, elections were coming,
他馬上就被關進了大牢
things were going well in the campaign,
嗯,我們活下來了,但是民主並沒有
the house was electric.
我們在獨裁統治下被放逐了殘酷的七年
We really could sense that there was going to be
今天,我們的民主正再次面對真相
a major progressive change in Greece.
讓我告訴你們一個故事
Then one night, military trucks drive up to our house.
星期天晚上
Soldiers storm the door.
2010 年四月,在布魯塞爾 (Brussels)
They find me up on the top terrace.
我當時和大家在歐盟
A sergeant comes up to me with a machine gun,
我才剛剛被選為總理
puts it to my head, and says,
但是我卻因為我擁有的特權 得知一件讓我不悅的事實
"Tell me where your father is or I will kill you."
那就是我們的赤字不是如同 前幾天舊政府的官方報告所指出的 6%
My father, hiding nearby, reveals himself,
而是 15.6%
and was summarily taken to prison.
但是赤字只是顯現出來的症狀而已
Well, we survived, but democracy did not.
隱含在裡頭的是,希臘所面對的更深層病灶
Seven brutal years of dictatorship
而我被選出來執行這項命令、這項任務
which we spent in exile.
來解決這些問題
Now, today, our democracies are again
不論我們在管理上是否缺乏透明度
facing a moment of truth.
以及承擔責任的可信度
Let me tell you a story.
又或者這是個提供強權 利益的侍從體系國家──
Sunday evening,
幫助他們利用全球的逃稅系統來避稅、
Brussels, April 2010.
政治及媒體被特殊利益所操弄
I'm sitting with my counterparts in the European Union.
儘管選舉授權給我們
I had just been elected prime minister,
然而市場並不信任我們
but I had the unhappy privilege of revealing a truth
我們的借款成本飆漲
that our deficit was not 6 percent,
而我們可能無法履行責任
as had been officially reported only a few days earlier
所以我到了布魯塞爾來完成一個任務
before the elections by the previous government,
也就是讓歐盟對這件事做出回應
but actually 15.6 percent.
使市場冷靜下來
But the deficit was only the symptom
讓我們有時間做出必要的重建工作
of much deeper problems that Greece was facing,
但我們並沒有得到時間
and I had been elected on a mandate, a mission, actually,
設想你們圍在布魯塞爾的桌邊
to tackle these problems,
談判很困難,壓力很大
whether it was lack of transparency
進度緩慢,後來,1 點 50 分的時候
and accountability in governance,
一位總理吼道:
or whether it was a clientelistic state
「我們得在 10 分鐘之內結束!」
offering favors to the powerful -- tax avoidance
我說:「為什麼?這是重要的決定。
abetted and aided by a global tax evasion system,
我們再斟酌久一些吧。」
politics and media captured by special interests.
另一位總理走進來並說:
But despite our electoral mandate,
「不,我們現在就要做出協議,
the markets mistrusted us.
因為 10 分鐘之後,
Our borrowing costs were skyrocketing,
日本就要開市了,
and we were facing possible default.
會讓全球經濟陷入混亂。」
So I went to Brussels on a mission
我們快速地在 10 分鐘之內做出決定
to make the case for a united European response,
這次拿槍指著我們頭的 不是軍隊,而是市場
one that would calm the markets and give us the time
接下來的是我這輩子所做過最困難的決定
to make the necessary reforms.
我很痛苦,我的人民也很痛苦
But time we didn't get.
在不該對這個危機負責的人身上
Picture yourselves around the table in Brussels.
刻下了深刻而嚴峻的傷口
Negotiations are difficult, the tensions are high,
做了這些犧牲後,希臘免除了破產的命運
progress is slow, and then, 10 minutes to 2,
而歐元區也免於崩盤
a prime minister shouts out,
希臘,毫無疑問,引起了歐洲危機
"We have to finish in 10 minutes."
有些人也把我視為這個危機的推手
I said, "Why? These are important decisions.
但我認為今天大多數的人會同意
Let's deliberate a little bit longer."
希臘只是歐元區更深層結構問題
Another prime minister comes in and says,
之中的一個症狀
"No, we have to have an agreement now,
一個在更廣大的全球經濟系統底下的受害者
because in 10 minutes,
一個我們的民主底下的受害者
the markets are opening up in Japan,
我們的民主陷在一個太大 而不能出錯的系統之中
and there will be havoc in the global economy."
更準確地說,是太大而難以控制
We quickly came to a decision in those 10 minutes.
在有著玩家懂得逃避法律、逃稅、
This time it was not the military,
逃避環境或勞動基準法規的全球經濟之中
but the markets, that put a gun to our collective heads.
我們的民主被削弱了
What followed were the most difficult decisions in my life,
在這日漸成長的不公平之中
painful to me, painful to my countrymen,
我們的民主遭到了破壞
imposing cuts, austerity,
權力以及財富的持續集中
often on those not to blame for the crisis.
遊說、貪汙、市場的速度
With these sacrifices, Greece did avoid bankruptcy
或只是我們有時會畏懼迫切危機的事實
and the eurozone avoided a collapse.
壓抑了我們的民主
Greece, yes, triggered the Euro crisis,
壓制了我們想像
and some people blame me for pulling the trigger.
事實上,也壓制了你們尋找解答的潛力
But I think today that most would agree
希臘,如你所見,對我們來說
that Greece was only a symptom
只是現況的預兆而已
of much deeper structural problems in the eurozone,
我當時過度樂觀地希望
vulnerabilities in the wider global economic system,
這個危機是希臘、歐洲、全世界
vulnerabilities of our democracies.
進行民主制度快速轉型的契機
Our democracies are trapped by systems too big to fail,
相反地,我有一個不太榮耀的經驗
or, more accurately, too big to control.
在布魯塞爾,當我們一再一再拼命
Our democracies are weakened in the global economy
想要找出辦法的時候
with players that can evade laws, evade taxes,
我了解到沒有任何人,我們沒有任何人
evade environmental or labor standards.
曾經處理過類似的危機
Our democracies are undermined
更糟的是,我們被束縛在我們的無知當中
by the growing inequality
我們被恐懼牽著鼻子走
and the growing concentration of power and wealth,
恐懼帶著我們走向對於
lobbies, corruption, the speed of the markets
撙節的盲目信仰
or simply the fact that we sometimes fear an impending disaster,
我們不但沒有在社會中集思廣益
have constrained our democracies,
並在當中找尋更有創意的答案
and they have constrained our capacity
我們反而回到了政治的裝腔作勢
to imagine and actually use the potential, your potential,
然而,讓我們訝異的是
in finding solutions.
每一個我們首次嘗試的特別方法 都無法終結這個危機
Greece, you see, was only a preview
理所當然這就會讓我們很容易想要
of what is in store for us all.
替整個歐洲的失敗找代罪羔羊
I, overly optimistically, had hoped
當然,那頭代罪羔羊就是希臘
that this crisis was an opportunity for Greece, for Europe,
恣意揮霍、無所事事、狂飲茴香酒 跳左巴舞 (Zorba) 的希臘人
for the world, to make radical democratic transformations
他們就是問題所在 懲罰他們吧!
in our institutions.
嗯,真是一個方便但是毫無根據的刻版印象
Instead, I had a very humbling experience.
它有時候甚至比樽節還要更傷人
In Brussels, when we tried desperately again and again
但是我要警告你們,這不單單只是希臘的事
to find common solutions,
這有可能會是我們處理這些複雜 跨國界問題的時候
I realized that not one, not one of us,
領導人們可能會重蹈的覆轍
had ever dealt with a similar crisis.
不論是關於氣候變遷、移民、財政系統
But worse, we were trapped by our collective ignorance.
也就是拋棄了 能夠想像我們的潛能的集體力量
We were led by our fears.
成為我們恐懼、刻板印象、圭臬的受害者
And our fears led to a blind faith
把人民從這個過程中抽離
in the orthodoxy of austerity.
而不是讓他們融入這個過程
Instead of reaching out to the common
這麼做只會更加考驗 人民在這個民主過程的信念
or the collective wisdom in our societies,
難怪很多政治領袖
investing in it to find more creative solutions,
包括我自己
we reverted to political posturing.
會失去人民的信任
And then we were surprised when every
當鎮暴警察需要保護議會的時候
ad hoc new measure didn't bring an end to the crisis,
這是一個在全球越來越普遍的畫面
and of course that made it very easy
那麼我們的民主就出了很大的問題
to look for a whipping boy
這就是為什麼我要舉辦公投
for our collective European failure,
讓希臘的人民決定紓困方案
and of course that was Greece.
至少有一些我的歐洲同伴
Those profligate, idle, ouzo-swilling, Zorba-dancing Greeks,
說:「你不能這麼做
they are the problem. Punish them!
會帶給市場另一場混亂。」
Well, a convenient but unfounded stereotype
我說:「我們必須這麼做 在我們重建市場的信心之前
that sometimes hurt even more than austerity itself.
我們必須重建人民的信心以及信任。」
But let me warn you, this is not just about Greece.
自從辭職以來,我有了時間來省思
This could be the pattern
在歐洲和希臘,我們飽受風暴的摧殘
that leaders follow again and again
但是我們仍面臨挑戰
when we deal with these complex, cross-border problems,
如果政治是用來想像 以及運用我們的潛力的力量
whether it's climate change, whether it's migration,
那麼在希臘和其它國家 60% 的青年失業率
whether it's the financial system.
如果不是缺乏同情
That is, abandoning our collective power
就是缺乏想像力
to imagine our potential,
到目前為止,我們把經濟當作解決問題的方法
falling victims to our fears, our stereotypes, our dogmas,
事實上,大部分是樽節
taking our citizens out of the process
當然我們可以設計出不同的替代方案
rather than building the process around our citizens.
不同的策略、給綠能產業點綠色振興方案
And doing so will only test the faith
或是能夠援助需要幫助的國家
of our citizens, of our peoples, even more
脫離市場壓力的相互債、歐洲債券
in the democratic process.
這些都是更可行的替代方案
It's no wonder that many political leaders,
但是我認為這個問題 並不全然是經濟的問題
and I don't exclude myself,
也是民主的問題
have lost the trust of our people.
所以讓我們來試試別的
When riot police have to protect parliaments,
我們來看看要如何 把人民拉回到這個過程之中
a scene which is increasingly common around the world,
我們把民主當作解決方法
then there's something deeply wrong with our democracies.
再說一次,並非完美的古希臘
That's why I called for a referendum to have the Greek people
在全盛時期相信群眾的智慧
own and decide on the terms of the rescue package.
我們信任人民
My European counterparts, some of them, at least,
人民不深思熟慮、辯論、 不為公眾事務承擔責任
said, "You can't do this.
民主就無法運作
There will be havoc in the markets again."
公民有相等的機會被選為公民陪審團
I said, "We need to, before we restore confidence in the markets,
來決定重大的事項
we need to restore confidence and trust amongst our people."
科學、劇院、研究、哲學
Since leaving office, I have had time to reflect.
身體與心靈的遊戲
We have weathered the storm, in Greece and in Europe,
它們是日常的活動
but we remain challenged.
事實上它們是為了讓人民參與、
If politics is the power to imagine and use our potential,
讓人民發揮潛力的教育
well then 60-percent youth unemployment in Greece,
那些規避政治的人,嗯,他們是白癡
and in other countries, certainly is a lack of imagination
你看,在古希臘,古雅典
if not a lack of compassion.
這個詞就是從那裏來的
So far, we've thrown economics at the problem,
「白癡」(idiot) 這個詞是從 「自我」(idio) 這個字根來的
actually mostly austerity,
一個自我中心、孤僻、抗拒
and certainly we could have designed alternatives,
不參與,甚至不檢視公眾事務的人
a different strategy, a green stimulus for green jobs,
參與就發生在集市 (agora),而集市有兩層意思
or mutualized debt, Eurobonds which would
一個市場或是一個議論政治的地方
support countries in need from market pressures,
你瞧,市場和政治在當時是同一件事、是一體的
these would have been much more viable alternatives.
可碰觸的、透明的,因為它們賦予了人民權力
Yet I have come to believe that the problem is not so much
它們是民主的樣本
one of economics as it is one of democracy.
在政府之上,在市場之上的
So let's try something else.
就是由人民直接治理
Let's see how we can bring people back to the process.
今天我們把市場全球化了
Let's throw democracy at the problem.
但是我們沒有把民主制度全球化
Again, the Ancient Greeks, with all their shortcomings,
所以我們的政客們被限制在地方政治
believed in the wisdom of the crowd
即使人民看到了相當大的潛力
at their best moments. In people we trust.
仍然受到非他們所能控制的力量所苦
Democracy could not work without the citizens
所以我們要如何 再次結合集市的兩層意義呢?
deliberating, debating, taking on public responsibilities
我們要如何將全球化民主化?
for public affairs.
我不是在說聯合國和 G20 所需要的改革
Average citizens often were chosen for citizen juries
我說的是,我們要如何拯救這個地方、
to decide on critical matters of the day.
這個樣本、這個價值觀念的平台?
Science, theater, research, philosophy,
如此一來,我們就可以利用你們的潛力
games of the mind and the body,
嗯,這就是我心目中對歐洲的定位
they were daily exercises.
拋開最近的失敗
Actually they were an education for participation,
歐洲是全世界最成功的跨國界和平實驗
for the potential, for growing the potential of our citizens.
因此讓我們來看看能不能做個全球民主實驗
And those who shunned politics, well, they were idiots.
一種嶄新的民主
You see, in Ancient Greece, in ancient Athens,
看看我們能不能設計一種歐洲的集市
that term originated there.
不只是為了產品以及服務
"Idiot" comes from the root "idio," oneself.
也為了人民,讓他們能夠合作
A person who is self-centered, secluded, excluded,
商討、互相學習
someone who doesn't participate or even examine public affairs.
交換藝術以及文化
And participation took place in the agora, the agora having two meanings,
讓他們能想出有創意的解決方法
both a marketplace and a place where there was political deliberation.
試著想像歐洲人民
You see, markets and politics then were one, unified,
真的有能力直接選舉出
accessible, transparent, because they gave power to the people.
一位歐洲總統
They serve the demos, democracy.
或是用抽籤的方式選出
Above government, above markets
能夠商討重要事項和爭議議題的人民陪審團
was the direct rule of the people.
一個橫跨歐洲的公投,讓人民成為立法者
Today we have globalized the markets
一起投票決定未來的條約
but we have not globalized our democratic institutions.
我在這裡提供一個想法:
So our politicians are limited to local politics,
我們何不嘗試給予移民者歐洲公民身分──
while our citizens, even though they see a great potential,
不是希臘、德國、
are prey to forces beyond their control.
或是瑞典的公民身分──
So how then do we reunite the two halves of the agora?
而是歐洲公民的身分
How do we democratize globalization?
而且確定我們能給予失業者學習禮券
And I'm not talking about the necessary reforms
賦予他們能夠在歐洲任何地方學習的權利
of the United Nations or the G20.
在那裡,我們的共同身分是民主
I'm talking about, how do we secure the space,
在那裡,我們透過參與來教育
the demos, the platform of values,
在那裡,參與能夠建立信任以及團結
so that we can tap into all of your potential?
而不是排斥以及仇外
Well, this is exactly where I think Europe fits in.
由人民組成及建立的歐洲
Europe, despite its recent failures,
一個具有更深、更廣的民主制度
is the world's most successful cross-border peace experiment.
的跨越國界歐洲
So let's see if it can't be an experiment
現在,有些人可能會指責我太天真
in global democracy, a new kind of democracy.
天真到去相信人民的力量以及智慧
Let's see if we can't design a European agora,
嗯,從政數十年之後,我也是一個實用主義者
not simply for products and services,
相信我,我在過去和現在
but for our citizens, where they can work together,
都身處於現代政治體系中的一部分
deliberate, learn from each other,
而我了解有些東西必須改變
exchange between art and cultures,
我們必須讓政治重生,並讓它成為
where they can come up with creative solutions.
想像、重新想像、設計 一個更美好世界的力量
Let's imagine that European citizens
但是我也知道現今的政治沒有
actually have the power to vote directly
這樣顛覆性的改變力量
for a European president,
民主政治的重生
or citizen juries chosen by lottery
將由你們而生,我指的是你們每一位
which can deliberate on critical and controversial issues,
任何參與這場全球性改變的人
a European-wide referendum where our citizens,
不論是否在這個房間裡
as the lawmakers, vote on future treaties.
或是在房間外面
And here's an idea:
或是在網路上、在大家住的地方
Why not have the first truly European citizens
任何勇敢對抗不公不義的人
by giving our immigrants,
任何勇敢對抗那些宣揚種族岐視
not Greek or German or Swedish citizenship,
而非同理心的人
but a European citizenship?
對抗宣揚教條而非選擇批判性思考的人
And make sure we actually empower
對抗宣揚技術官僚統治 而非選擇民主政治的人
the unemployed by giving them a voucher scholarship
對抗那些不受約束權力的人
where they can choose to study anywhere in Europe.
不論那是獨裁領導人、
Where our common identity is democracy,
將財富藏在避稅天堂的財閥
where our education is through participation,
或是保護少數有力人士的有力遊說者
and where participation builds trust
我們全是笨蛋,對他們最有利
and solidarity rather than exclusion and xenophobia.
別當笨蛋
Europe of and by the people,
謝謝
a Europe, an experiment in deepening and widening
(掌聲)
democracy beyond borders.
布魯諾.朱薩尼 (Bruno Giussani): 你似乎敘述了一段有點沒準備好的
Now, some might accuse me of being naive,
政治領導人生涯
putting my faith in the power and the wisdom of the people.
以及一個被囚禁在對商場有怪念頭的人
Well, after decades in politics, I am also a pragmatist.
還有,你所敘述的那段布魯塞爾的景象
Believe me, I have been,
對我這個人民來說相當駭人
I am, part of today's political system,
幫助我們了解你在 決定之後的感覺是什麼
and I know things must change.
那顯然不是一個好的決定
We must revive politics as the power to imagine,
但是身為喬治,而不是總理
reimagine, and redesign for a better world.
你在那之後的感覺是什麼?
But I also know that this disruptive force of change
喬治:嗯,顯然有某種束縛
won't be driven by the politics of today.
讓我或是其他人在當時無法做出
The revival of democratic politics
我們心目中的決定
will come from you, and I mean all of you.
顯然我也曾希望我們能有時間
Everyone who participates in this global exchange of ideas,
能夠進行改革,來處理赤字
whether it's here in this room
而不是嘗試減少赤字
or just outside this room
演變成這個問題所顯現的症狀
or online or locally, where everybody lives,
那很傷人 首先是因為
everyone who stands up to injustice and inequality,
它傷害了年輕一代,而不僅是他們
everybody who stands up to those who preach
還有許多在外示威遊行的人們
racism rather than empathy,
但我認為這只是我們的其中一個問題而已
dogma rather than critical thinking,
當我們面對這些危機,我們並沒有在過程中
technocracy rather than democracy,
運用我們社會的巨大潛力
everyone who stands up to the unchecked power,
我們把自己關在政治圈裡
whether it's authoritarian leaders,
而我認為我們應當改變
plutocrats hiding their assets in tax havens,
利用現有的強大科技,但那不僅僅是科技 還有我們的內心
or powerful lobbies protecting the powerful few.
來找出新的參與方法
It is in their interest that all of us are idiots.
我認為我們能找出更好的辦法
Let's not be.
但我們必須有開闊的胸襟
Thank you.
喬治:你似乎想建議,若要進步的話 需要有一體化的歐洲
(Applause)
而這論述目前對大部分的歐洲國家來說
Bruno Giussani: You seem to describe a political leadership
並不容易進行
that is kind of unprepared
現在的情況剛好相反──較封閉的邊界
and a prisoner of the whims of the financial markets,
以及較少的合作,有些國家甚至沒有不參與
and that scene in Brussels that you describe, to me,
其它部分歐洲的建設
as a citizen, is terrifying.
你要怎麼協調?
Help us understand how you felt after the decision.
布魯諾:嗯,我認為在這場危機之中
It was not a good decision, clearly,
所發生最糟的事情就是我們開始互相怪罪
but how do you feel after that, not as the prime minister,
歐洲最根本的概念就是
but as George?
我們能夠從事跨國界的合作
George Papandreou: Well, obviously there were constraints
不發生衝突且同心協力
which didn't allow me or others to make
矛盾之處在於我們開始互相怪罪
the types of decisions we would have wanted,
因此我們說服人民我們應該合作
and obviously I had hoped that we would have the time
的力量就相形薄弱
to make the reforms which would have dealt
而現在就是我們應該
with the deficit rather than trying to cut the deficit
同心協力的時刻
which was the symptom of the problem.
現在一體化的歐洲對我來說
And that hurt. That hurt because that, first of all,
不單單只是給予布魯塞爾更大的權力
hurt the younger generation, and not only,
而其實是給歐洲人民更大的權力
many of them are demonstrating outside,
也就是讓歐洲成為人民的計畫
but I think this is one of our problems.
我認為這是較好的方式
When we face these crises, we have kept the potential,
來回應一部分人民在社會中的恐懼
the huge potential of our society out of this process,
布魯諾:喬治,謝謝你來 TED
and we are closing in on ourselves in politics,
喬治:非常感謝 布魯諾:謝謝
and I think we need to change that, to really find
(掌聲)
new participatory ways using the great capabilities
that now exist even in technology but not only in technology,
the minds that we have, and I think we can find solutions
which are much better, but we have to be open.
BG: You seem to suggest that the way forward
is more Europe, and that is not to be an easy discourse
right now in most European countries.
It's rather the other way -- more closed borders
and less cooperation and maybe even stepping out
of some of the different parts of the European construction.
How do you reconcile that?
GP: Well, I think one of the worst things that happened
during this crisis is that we started a blame game.
And the fundamental idea of Europe is that
we can cooperate beyond borders,
go beyond our conflicts and work together.
And the paradox is that, because we have this blame game,
we have less the potential to convince our citizens
that we should work together,
while now is the time when we really need
to bring our powers together.
Now, more Europe for me is not simply
giving more power to Brussels.
It is actually giving more power to the citizens of Europe,
that is, really making Europe a project of the people.
So that, I think, would be a way to answer
some of the fears that we have in our society.
BG: George, thank you for coming to TED.
GP: Thank you very much.BG: Thank you.(Applause)