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  • Translator: Joseph Geni Reviewer: Morton Bast

    譯者: NAN-KUN WU 審譯者: Marssi Draw

  • This will not be a speech

    這場演講

  • like any one I have ever given.

    和我以前的演講完全不同

  • I will talk to you today about

    今天我要告訴你們

  • the failure of leadership in global politics

    全球政治以及全球化經濟領導的失敗

  • and in our globalizing economy.

    我不會提出那些感覺還不錯、 現成的解決辦法

  • And I won't provide some feel-good, ready-made solutions.

    但在演講最後,我會激勵你們去重新思考 事實上,是冒險

  • But I will in the end urge you

    並參與我視為全球民主的進化過程

  • to rethink, actually take risks, and get involved

    失敗的領導

  • in what I see as a global evolution

    何謂現今的失敗領導?

  • of democracy.

    為何民主失效了?

  • Failure of leadership.

    嗯,我相信失敗的領導表示 我們把自己抽離了整個過程

  • What is the failure of leadership today?

    請容我根據我的經驗給你們一些觀點

  • And why is our democracy not working?

    讓你們退一步,或許也能讓你們了解

  • Well, I believe that the failure of leadership is the fact

    何以處理現今的挑戰是如此艱難

  • that we have taken you out of the process.

    以及為何政治會步入一個死胡同

  • So let me, from my personal experiences,

    我們從頭開始說吧

  • give you an insight, so that you can step back

    就從民主開始

  • and maybe understand why it is so difficult to cope

    嗯,如果你回到古希臘

  • with the challenges of today and why politics

    它是種啟示、是種探索

  • is going down a blind alley.

    告訴我們有成為 我們自己命運主宰的潛力

  • Let's start from the beginning.

    得以檢視、學習、想像

  • Let's start from democracy.

    進而塑造出一個更美好的生活

  • Well, if you go back to the Ancient Greeks,

    民主就是政治上的創新

  • it was a revelation, a discovery,

    它保護了這樣的自由

  • that we had the potential, together,

    由於我們從畏懼中解放

  • to be masters of our own fate,

    不論我們的內心住著暴君或是教條

  • to be able to examine, to learn, to imagine,

    都可以成為主宰

  • and then to design a better life.

    民主是種政治創新,它限制了我們 意圖擁有極大財富與權力的天性

  • And democracy was the political innovation

    不論這種權力是來自於暴君或是大祭司

  • which protected this freedom,

    嗯,14 歲的時候,我開始了解這件事

  • because we were liberated from fear

    我試著逃避回家作業

  • so that our minds in fact,

    躡手躡腳地走到客廳聽著我父母

  • whether they be despots or dogmas,

    和他們朋友們的激烈辯論

  • could be the protagonists.

    瞧,希臘當時受到強權控制

  • Democracy was the political innovation that allowed us

    它綁住了整個國家

  • to limit the power, whether it was of tyrants

    我的父親曾帶領了一個有願景的運動

  • or of high priests,

    嘗試重現希臘

  • their natural tendency to maximize power and wealth.

    在那裡,自由當道

  • Well, I first began to understand this

    而且人民得以掌握他們的國家

  • when I was 14 years old.

    我曾經參加過他的好幾個活動

  • I used to, to try to avoid homework,

    你可以看到我站在他旁邊

  • sneak down to the living room and listen to my parents

    我是那個比較年輕的,靠這邊

  • and their friends debate heatedly.

    你們可能認不太出來

  • You see, then Greece was

    因為我那時候的頭髮有分邊

  • under control of a very powerful establishment

    (笑聲)

  • which was strangling the country,

    1967 年,選舉將近

  • and my father was heading a promising movement

    活動進行得很順利

  • to reimagine Greece, to imagine a Greece

    整屋子的人興奮不已

  • where freedom reigned and where, maybe,

    我們都能嗅到 希臘即將邁進很大的一步

  • the people, the citizens, could actually rule their own country.

    然後有一天晚上 軍用卡車直接停在我家前面

  • I used to join him in many of the campaigns,

    士兵衝進門

  • and you can see me here next to him.

    他們在陽台上找到了我

  • I'm the younger one there, to the side.

    一位拿著機關槍的士官走向我

  • You may not recognize me because

    槍口指著我的頭,說:

  • I used to part my hair differently there.

    「告訴我你爸在哪,不然你就沒命了。」

  • (Laughter)

    躲在附近的父親自己走出來了

  • So in 1967, elections were coming,

    他馬上就被關進了大牢

  • things were going well in the campaign,

    嗯,我們活下來了,但是民主並沒有

  • the house was electric.

    我們在獨裁統治下被放逐了殘酷的七年

  • We really could sense that there was going to be

    今天,我們的民主正再次面對真相

  • a major progressive change in Greece.

    讓我告訴你們一個故事

  • Then one night, military trucks drive up to our house.

    星期天晚上

  • Soldiers storm the door.

    2010 年四月,在布魯塞爾 (Brussels)

  • They find me up on the top terrace.

    我當時和大家在歐盟

  • A sergeant comes up to me with a machine gun,

    我才剛剛被選為總理

  • puts it to my head, and says,

    但是我卻因為我擁有的特權 得知一件讓我不悅的事實

  • "Tell me where your father is or I will kill you."

    那就是我們的赤字不是如同 前幾天舊政府的官方報告所指出的 6%

  • My father, hiding nearby, reveals himself,

    而是 15.6%

  • and was summarily taken to prison.

    但是赤字只是顯現出來的症狀而已

  • Well, we survived, but democracy did not.

    隱含在裡頭的是,希臘所面對的更深層病灶

  • Seven brutal years of dictatorship

    而我被選出來執行這項命令、這項任務

  • which we spent in exile.

    來解決這些問題

  • Now, today, our democracies are again

    不論我們在管理上是否缺乏透明度

  • facing a moment of truth.

    以及承擔責任的可信度

  • Let me tell you a story.

    又或者這是個提供強權 利益的侍從體系國家──

  • Sunday evening,

    幫助他們利用全球的逃稅系統來避稅、

  • Brussels, April 2010.

    政治及媒體被特殊利益所操弄

  • I'm sitting with my counterparts in the European Union.

    儘管選舉授權給我們

  • I had just been elected prime minister,

    然而市場並不信任我們

  • but I had the unhappy privilege of revealing a truth

    我們的借款成本飆漲

  • that our deficit was not 6 percent,

    而我們可能無法履行責任

  • as had been officially reported only a few days earlier

    所以我到了布魯塞爾來完成一個任務

  • before the elections by the previous government,

    也就是讓歐盟對這件事做出回應

  • but actually 15.6 percent.

    使市場冷靜下來

  • But the deficit was only the symptom

    讓我們有時間做出必要的重建工作

  • of much deeper problems that Greece was facing,

    但我們並沒有得到時間

  • and I had been elected on a mandate, a mission, actually,

    設想你們圍在布魯塞爾的桌邊

  • to tackle these problems,

    談判很困難,壓力很大

  • whether it was lack of transparency

    進度緩慢,後來,1 點 50 分的時候

  • and accountability in governance,

    一位總理吼道:

  • or whether it was a clientelistic state

    「我們得在 10 分鐘之內結束!」

  • offering favors to the powerful -- tax avoidance

    我說:「為什麼?這是重要的決定。

  • abetted and aided by a global tax evasion system,

    我們再斟酌久一些吧。」

  • politics and media captured by special interests.

    另一位總理走進來並說:

  • But despite our electoral mandate,

    「不,我們現在就要做出協議,

  • the markets mistrusted us.

    因為 10 分鐘之後,

  • Our borrowing costs were skyrocketing,

    日本就要開市了,

  • and we were facing possible default.

    會讓全球經濟陷入混亂。」

  • So I went to Brussels on a mission

    我們快速地在 10 分鐘之內做出決定

  • to make the case for a united European response,

    這次拿槍指著我們頭的 不是軍隊,而是市場

  • one that would calm the markets and give us the time

    接下來的是我這輩子所做過最困難的決定

  • to make the necessary reforms.

    我很痛苦,我的人民也很痛苦

  • But time we didn't get.

    在不該對這個危機負責的人身上

  • Picture yourselves around the table in Brussels.

    刻下了深刻而嚴峻的傷口

  • Negotiations are difficult, the tensions are high,

    做了這些犧牲後,希臘免除了破產的命運

  • progress is slow, and then, 10 minutes to 2,

    而歐元區也免於崩盤

  • a prime minister shouts out,

    希臘,毫無疑問,引起了歐洲危機

  • "We have to finish in 10 minutes."

    有些人也把我視為這個危機的推手

  • I said, "Why? These are important decisions.

    但我認為今天大多數的人會同意

  • Let's deliberate a little bit longer."

    希臘只是歐元區更深層結構問題

  • Another prime minister comes in and says,

    之中的一個症狀

  • "No, we have to have an agreement now,

    一個在更廣大的全球經濟系統底下的受害者

  • because in 10 minutes,

    一個我們的民主底下的受害者

  • the markets are opening up in Japan,

    我們的民主陷在一個太大 而不能出錯的系統之中

  • and there will be havoc in the global economy."

    更準確地說,是太大而難以控制

  • We quickly came to a decision in those 10 minutes.

    在有著玩家懂得逃避法律、逃稅、

  • This time it was not the military,

    逃避環境或勞動基準法規的全球經濟之中

  • but the markets, that put a gun to our collective heads.

    我們的民主被削弱了

  • What followed were the most difficult decisions in my life,

    在這日漸成長的不公平之中

  • painful to me, painful to my countrymen,

    我們的民主遭到了破壞

  • imposing cuts, austerity,

    權力以及財富的持續集中

  • often on those not to blame for the crisis.

    遊說、貪汙、市場的速度

  • With these sacrifices, Greece did avoid bankruptcy

    或只是我們有時會畏懼迫切危機的事實

  • and the eurozone avoided a collapse.

    壓抑了我們的民主

  • Greece, yes, triggered the Euro crisis,

    壓制了我們想像

  • and some people blame me for pulling the trigger.

    事實上,也壓制了你們尋找解答的潛力

  • But I think today that most would agree

    希臘,如你所見,對我們來說

  • that Greece was only a symptom

    只是現況的預兆而已

  • of much deeper structural problems in the eurozone,

    我當時過度樂觀地希望

  • vulnerabilities in the wider global economic system,

    這個危機是希臘、歐洲、全世界

  • vulnerabilities of our democracies.

    進行民主制度快速轉型的契機

  • Our democracies are trapped by systems too big to fail,

    相反地,我有一個不太榮耀的經驗

  • or, more accurately, too big to control.

    在布魯塞爾,當我們一再一再拼命

  • Our democracies are weakened in the global economy

    想要找出辦法的時候

  • with players that can evade laws, evade taxes,

    我了解到沒有任何人,我們沒有任何人

  • evade environmental or labor standards.

    曾經處理過類似的危機

  • Our democracies are undermined

    更糟的是,我們被束縛在我們的無知當中

  • by the growing inequality

    我們被恐懼牽著鼻子走

  • and the growing concentration of power and wealth,

    恐懼帶著我們走向對於

  • lobbies, corruption, the speed of the markets

    撙節的盲目信仰

  • or simply the fact that we sometimes fear an impending disaster,

    我們不但沒有在社會中集思廣益

  • have constrained our democracies,

    並在當中找尋更有創意的答案

  • and they have constrained our capacity

    我們反而回到了政治的裝腔作勢

  • to imagine and actually use the potential, your potential,

    然而,讓我們訝異的是

  • in finding solutions.

    每一個我們首次嘗試的特別方法 都無法終結這個危機

  • Greece, you see, was only a preview

    理所當然這就會讓我們很容易想要

  • of what is in store for us all.

    替整個歐洲的失敗找代罪羔羊

  • I, overly optimistically, had hoped

    當然,那頭代罪羔羊就是希臘

  • that this crisis was an opportunity for Greece, for Europe,

    恣意揮霍、無所事事、狂飲茴香酒 跳左巴舞 (Zorba) 的希臘人

  • for the world, to make radical democratic transformations

    他們就是問題所在 懲罰他們吧!

  • in our institutions.

    嗯,真是一個方便但是毫無根據的刻版印象

  • Instead, I had a very humbling experience.

    它有時候甚至比樽節還要更傷人

  • In Brussels, when we tried desperately again and again

    但是我要警告你們,這不單單只是希臘的事

  • to find common solutions,

    這有可能會是我們處理這些複雜 跨國界問題的時候

  • I realized that not one, not one of us,

    領導人們可能會重蹈的覆轍

  • had ever dealt with a similar crisis.

    不論是關於氣候變遷、移民、財政系統

  • But worse, we were trapped by our collective ignorance.

    也就是拋棄了 能夠想像我們的潛能的集體力量

  • We were led by our fears.

    成為我們恐懼、刻板印象、圭臬的受害者

  • And our fears led to a blind faith

    把人民從這個過程中抽離

  • in the orthodoxy of austerity.

    而不是讓他們融入這個過程

  • Instead of reaching out to the common

    這麼做只會更加考驗 人民在這個民主過程的信念

  • or the collective wisdom in our societies,

    難怪很多政治領袖

  • investing in it to find more creative solutions,

    包括我自己

  • we reverted to political posturing.

    會失去人民的信任

  • And then we were surprised when every

    當鎮暴警察需要保護議會的時候

  • ad hoc new measure didn't bring an end to the crisis,

    這是一個在全球越來越普遍的畫面

  • and of course that made it very easy

    那麼我們的民主就出了很大的問題

  • to look for a whipping boy

    這就是為什麼我要舉辦公投

  • for our collective European failure,

    讓希臘的人民決定紓困方案

  • and of course that was Greece.

    至少有一些我的歐洲同伴

  • Those profligate, idle, ouzo-swilling, Zorba-dancing Greeks,

    說:「你不能這麼做

  • they are the problem. Punish them!

    會帶給市場另一場混亂。」

  • Well, a convenient but unfounded stereotype

    我說:「我們必須這麼做 在我們重建市場的信心之前

  • that sometimes hurt even more than austerity itself.

    我們必須重建人民的信心以及信任。」

  • But let me warn you, this is not just about Greece.

    自從辭職以來,我有了時間來省思

  • This could be the pattern

    在歐洲和希臘,我們飽受風暴的摧殘

  • that leaders follow again and again

    但是我們仍面臨挑戰

  • when we deal with these complex, cross-border problems,

    如果政治是用來想像 以及運用我們的潛力的力量

  • whether it's climate change, whether it's migration,

    那麼在希臘和其它國家 60% 的青年失業率

  • whether it's the financial system.

    如果不是缺乏同情

  • That is, abandoning our collective power

    就是缺乏想像力

  • to imagine our potential,

    到目前為止,我們把經濟當作解決問題的方法

  • falling victims to our fears, our stereotypes, our dogmas,

    事實上,大部分是樽節

  • taking our citizens out of the process

    當然我們可以設計出不同的替代方案

  • rather than building the process around our citizens.

    不同的策略、給綠能產業點綠色振興方案

  • And doing so will only test the faith

    或是能夠援助需要幫助的國家

  • of our citizens, of our peoples, even more

    脫離市場壓力的相互債、歐洲債券

  • in the democratic process.

    這些都是更可行的替代方案

  • It's no wonder that many political leaders,

    但是我認為這個問題 並不全然是經濟的問題

  • and I don't exclude myself,

    也是民主的問題

  • have lost the trust of our people.

    所以讓我們來試試別的

  • When riot police have to protect parliaments,

    我們來看看要如何 把人民拉回到這個過程之中

  • a scene which is increasingly common around the world,

    我們把民主當作解決方法

  • then there's something deeply wrong with our democracies.

    再說一次,並非完美的古希臘

  • That's why I called for a referendum to have the Greek people

    在全盛時期相信群眾的智慧

  • own and decide on the terms of the rescue package.

    我們信任人民

  • My European counterparts, some of them, at least,

    人民不深思熟慮、辯論、 不為公眾事務承擔責任

  • said, "You can't do this.

    民主就無法運作

  • There will be havoc in the markets again."

    公民有相等的機會被選為公民陪審團

  • I said, "We need to, before we restore confidence in the markets,

    來決定重大的事項

  • we need to restore confidence and trust amongst our people."

    科學、劇院、研究、哲學

  • Since leaving office, I have had time to reflect.

    身體與心靈的遊戲

  • We have weathered the storm, in Greece and in Europe,

    它們是日常的活動

  • but we remain challenged.

    事實上它們是為了讓人民參與、

  • If politics is the power to imagine and use our potential,

    讓人民發揮潛力的教育

  • well then 60-percent youth unemployment in Greece,

    那些規避政治的人,嗯,他們是白癡

  • and in other countries, certainly is a lack of imagination

    你看,在古希臘,古雅典

  • if not a lack of compassion.

    這個詞就是從那裏來的

  • So far, we've thrown economics at the problem,

    「白癡」(idiot) 這個詞是從 「自我」(idio) 這個字根來的

  • actually mostly austerity,

    一個自我中心、孤僻、抗拒

  • and certainly we could have designed alternatives,

    不參與,甚至不檢視公眾事務的人

  • a different strategy, a green stimulus for green jobs,

    參與就發生在集市 (agora),而集市有兩層意思

  • or mutualized debt, Eurobonds which would

    一個市場或是一個議論政治的地方

  • support countries in need from market pressures,

    你瞧,市場和政治在當時是同一件事、是一體的

  • these would have been much more viable alternatives.

    可碰觸的、透明的,因為它們賦予了人民權力

  • Yet I have come to believe that the problem is not so much

    它們是民主的樣本

  • one of economics as it is one of democracy.

    在政府之上,在市場之上的

  • So let's try something else.

    就是由人民直接治理

  • Let's see how we can bring people back to the process.

    今天我們把市場全球化了

  • Let's throw democracy at the problem.

    但是我們沒有把民主制度全球化

  • Again, the Ancient Greeks, with all their shortcomings,

    所以我們的政客們被限制在地方政治

  • believed in the wisdom of the crowd

    即使人民看到了相當大的潛力

  • at their best moments. In people we trust.

    仍然受到非他們所能控制的力量所苦

  • Democracy could not work without the citizens

    所以我們要如何 再次結合集市的兩層意義呢?

  • deliberating, debating, taking on public responsibilities

    我們要如何將全球化民主化?

  • for public affairs.

    我不是在說聯合國和 G20 所需要的改革

  • Average citizens often were chosen for citizen juries

    我說的是,我們要如何拯救這個地方、

  • to decide on critical matters of the day.

    這個樣本、這個價值觀念的平台?

  • Science, theater, research, philosophy,

    如此一來,我們就可以利用你們的潛力

  • games of the mind and the body,

    嗯,這就是我心目中對歐洲的定位

  • they were daily exercises.

    拋開最近的失敗

  • Actually they were an education for participation,

    歐洲是全世界最成功的跨國界和平實驗

  • for the potential, for growing the potential of our citizens.

    因此讓我們來看看能不能做個全球民主實驗

  • And those who shunned politics, well, they were idiots.

    一種嶄新的民主

  • You see, in Ancient Greece, in ancient Athens,

    看看我們能不能設計一種歐洲的集市

  • that term originated there.

    不只是為了產品以及服務

  • "Idiot" comes from the root "idio," oneself.

    也為了人民,讓他們能夠合作

  • A person who is self-centered, secluded, excluded,

    商討、互相學習

  • someone who doesn't participate or even examine public affairs.

    交換藝術以及文化

  • And participation took place in the agora, the agora having two meanings,

    讓他們能想出有創意的解決方法

  • both a marketplace and a place where there was political deliberation.

    試著想像歐洲人民

  • You see, markets and politics then were one, unified,

    真的有能力直接選舉出

  • accessible, transparent, because they gave power to the people.

    一位歐洲總統

  • They serve the demos, democracy.

    或是用抽籤的方式選出

  • Above government, above markets

    能夠商討重要事項和爭議議題的人民陪審團

  • was the direct rule of the people.

    一個橫跨歐洲的公投,讓人民成為立法者

  • Today we have globalized the markets

    一起投票決定未來的條約

  • but we have not globalized our democratic institutions.

    我在這裡提供一個想法:

  • So our politicians are limited to local politics,

    我們何不嘗試給予移民者歐洲公民身分──

  • while our citizens, even though they see a great potential,

    不是希臘、德國、

  • are prey to forces beyond their control.

    或是瑞典的公民身分──

  • So how then do we reunite the two halves of the agora?

    而是歐洲公民的身分

  • How do we democratize globalization?

    而且確定我們能給予失業者學習禮券

  • And I'm not talking about the necessary reforms

    賦予他們能夠在歐洲任何地方學習的權利

  • of the United Nations or the G20.

    在那裡,我們的共同身分是民主

  • I'm talking about, how do we secure the space,

    在那裡,我們透過參與來教育

  • the demos, the platform of values,

    在那裡,參與能夠建立信任以及團結

  • so that we can tap into all of your potential?

    而不是排斥以及仇外

  • Well, this is exactly where I think Europe fits in.

    由人民組成及建立的歐洲

  • Europe, despite its recent failures,

    一個具有更深、更廣的民主制度

  • is the world's most successful cross-border peace experiment.

    的跨越國界歐洲

  • So let's see if it can't be an experiment

    現在,有些人可能會指責我太天真

  • in global democracy, a new kind of democracy.

    天真到去相信人民的力量以及智慧

  • Let's see if we can't design a European agora,

    嗯,從政數十年之後,我也是一個實用主義者

  • not simply for products and services,

    相信我,我在過去和現在

  • but for our citizens, where they can work together,

    都身處於現代政治體系中的一部分

  • deliberate, learn from each other,

    而我了解有些東西必須改變

  • exchange between art and cultures,

    我們必須讓政治重生,並讓它成為

  • where they can come up with creative solutions.

    想像、重新想像、設計 一個更美好世界的力量

  • Let's imagine that European citizens

    但是我也知道現今的政治沒有

  • actually have the power to vote directly

    這樣顛覆性的改變力量

  • for a European president,

    民主政治的重生

  • or citizen juries chosen by lottery

    將由你們而生,我指的是你們每一位

  • which can deliberate on critical and controversial issues,

    任何參與這場全球性改變的人

  • a European-wide referendum where our citizens,

    不論是否在這個房間裡

  • as the lawmakers, vote on future treaties.

    或是在房間外面

  • And here's an idea:

    或是在網路上、在大家住的地方

  • Why not have the first truly European citizens

    任何勇敢對抗不公不義的人

  • by giving our immigrants,

    任何勇敢對抗那些宣揚種族岐視

  • not Greek or German or Swedish citizenship,

    而非同理心的人

  • but a European citizenship?

    對抗宣揚教條而非選擇批判性思考的人

  • And make sure we actually empower

    對抗宣揚技術官僚統治 而非選擇民主政治的人

  • the unemployed by giving them a voucher scholarship

    對抗那些不受約束權力的人

  • where they can choose to study anywhere in Europe.

    不論那是獨裁領導人、

  • Where our common identity is democracy,

    將財富藏在避稅天堂的財閥

  • where our education is through participation,

    或是保護少數有力人士的有力遊說者

  • and where participation builds trust

    我們全是笨蛋,對他們最有利

  • and solidarity rather than exclusion and xenophobia.

    別當笨蛋

  • Europe of and by the people,

    謝謝

  • a Europe, an experiment in deepening and widening

    (掌聲)

  • democracy beyond borders.

    布魯諾.朱薩尼 (Bruno Giussani): 你似乎敘述了一段有點沒準備好的

  • Now, some might accuse me of being naive,

    政治領導人生涯

  • putting my faith in the power and the wisdom of the people.

    以及一個被囚禁在對商場有怪念頭的人

  • Well, after decades in politics, I am also a pragmatist.

    還有,你所敘述的那段布魯塞爾的景象

  • Believe me, I have been,

    對我這個人民來說相當駭人

  • I am, part of today's political system,

    幫助我們了解你在 決定之後的感覺是什麼

  • and I know things must change.

    那顯然不是一個好的決定

  • We must revive politics as the power to imagine,

    但是身為喬治,而不是總理

  • reimagine, and redesign for a better world.

    你在那之後的感覺是什麼?

  • But I also know that this disruptive force of change

    喬治:嗯,顯然有某種束縛

  • won't be driven by the politics of today.

    讓我或是其他人在當時無法做出

  • The revival of democratic politics

    我們心目中的決定

  • will come from you, and I mean all of you.

    顯然我也曾希望我們能有時間

  • Everyone who participates in this global exchange of ideas,

    能夠進行改革,來處理赤字

  • whether it's here in this room

    而不是嘗試減少赤字

  • or just outside this room

    演變成這個問題所顯現的症狀

  • or online or locally, where everybody lives,

    那很傷人 首先是因為

  • everyone who stands up to injustice and inequality,

    它傷害了年輕一代,而不僅是他們

  • everybody who stands up to those who preach

    還有許多在外示威遊行的人們

  • racism rather than empathy,

    但我認為這只是我們的其中一個問題而已

  • dogma rather than critical thinking,

    當我們面對這些危機,我們並沒有在過程中

  • technocracy rather than democracy,

    運用我們社會的巨大潛力

  • everyone who stands up to the unchecked power,

    我們把自己關在政治圈裡

  • whether it's authoritarian leaders,

    而我認為我們應當改變

  • plutocrats hiding their assets in tax havens,

    利用現有的強大科技,但那不僅僅是科技 還有我們的內心

  • or powerful lobbies protecting the powerful few.

    來找出新的參與方法

  • It is in their interest that all of us are idiots.

    我認為我們能找出更好的辦法

  • Let's not be.

    但我們必須有開闊的胸襟

  • Thank you.

    喬治:你似乎想建議,若要進步的話 需要有一體化的歐洲

  • (Applause)

    而這論述目前對大部分的歐洲國家來說

  • Bruno Giussani: You seem to describe a political leadership

    並不容易進行

  • that is kind of unprepared

    現在的情況剛好相反──較封閉的邊界

  • and a prisoner of the whims of the financial markets,

    以及較少的合作,有些國家甚至沒有不參與

  • and that scene in Brussels that you describe, to me,

    其它部分歐洲的建設

  • as a citizen, is terrifying.

    你要怎麼協調?

  • Help us understand how you felt after the decision.

    布魯諾:嗯,我認為在這場危機之中

  • It was not a good decision, clearly,

    所發生最糟的事情就是我們開始互相怪罪

  • but how do you feel after that, not as the prime minister,

    歐洲最根本的概念就是

  • but as George?

    我們能夠從事跨國界的合作

  • George Papandreou: Well, obviously there were constraints

    不發生衝突且同心協力

  • which didn't allow me or others to make

    矛盾之處在於我們開始互相怪罪

  • the types of decisions we would have wanted,

    因此我們說服人民我們應該合作

  • and obviously I had hoped that we would have the time

    的力量就相形薄弱

  • to make the reforms which would have dealt

    而現在就是我們應該

  • with the deficit rather than trying to cut the deficit

    同心協力的時刻

  • which was the symptom of the problem.

    現在一體化的歐洲對我來說

  • And that hurt. That hurt because that, first of all,

    不單單只是給予布魯塞爾更大的權力

  • hurt the younger generation, and not only,

    而其實是給歐洲人民更大的權力

  • many of them are demonstrating outside,

    也就是讓歐洲成為人民的計畫

  • but I think this is one of our problems.

    我認為這是較好的方式

  • When we face these crises, we have kept the potential,

    來回應一部分人民在社會中的恐懼

  • the huge potential of our society out of this process,

    布魯諾:喬治,謝謝你來 TED

  • and we are closing in on ourselves in politics,

    喬治:非常感謝 布魯諾:謝謝

  • and I think we need to change that, to really find

    (掌聲)

  • new participatory ways using the great capabilities

  • that now exist even in technology but not only in technology,

  • the minds that we have, and I think we can find solutions

  • which are much better, but we have to be open.

  • BG: You seem to suggest that the way forward

  • is more Europe, and that is not to be an easy discourse

  • right now in most European countries.

  • It's rather the other way -- more closed borders

  • and less cooperation and maybe even stepping out

  • of some of the different parts of the European construction.

  • How do you reconcile that?

  • GP: Well, I think one of the worst things that happened

  • during this crisis is that we started a blame game.

  • And the fundamental idea of Europe is that

  • we can cooperate beyond borders,

  • go beyond our conflicts and work together.

  • And the paradox is that, because we have this blame game,

  • we have less the potential to convince our citizens

  • that we should work together,

  • while now is the time when we really need

  • to bring our powers together.

  • Now, more Europe for me is not simply

  • giving more power to Brussels.

  • It is actually giving more power to the citizens of Europe,

  • that is, really making Europe a project of the people.

  • So that, I think, would be a way to answer

  • some of the fears that we have in our society.

  • BG: George, thank you for coming to TED.

  • GP: Thank you very much.BG: Thank you.(Applause)

Translator: Joseph Geni Reviewer: Morton Bast

譯者: NAN-KUN WU 審譯者: Marssi Draw

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B1 中級 中文 美國腔 TED 民主 人民 歐洲 希臘 政治

TED】喬治-帕潘德里歐:想象一個沒有邊界的歐洲民主(喬治-帕潘德里歐:想象一個沒有邊界的歐洲民主)。 (【TED】George Papandreou: Imagine a European democracy without borders (George Papandreou: Imagine a European democracy without borders))

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    Zenn 發佈於 2021 年 01 月 14 日
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