And the first thing I wanted to do as a Muslim

幾週前

was to go to Mecca and visit the Kaaba,

我有幸去了沙烏地阿拉伯一趟

the holiest shrine of Islam.

作為一個穆斯林，我最想做的事情

And I did that; I put on my ritualistic dress,

就是去麥加的天房

I went to the holy mosque,

伊斯蘭最神聖的廟堂

I did my prayers,

我去了天房；我穿上了我朝聖的服裝

I observed all the rituals.

去了這個神聖的清真寺

And meanwhile, besides all the spirituality,

我禱告

there was one mundane detail in the Kaaba

並遵循的所有儀式的流程

that was pretty interesting for me:

同時

there was no separation of sexes.

我發現在這一切神性之外

In other words, men and women were worshiping all together.

天房儀式中有一個很不起眼的細節

They were together while doing tawāf, the circular walk around the Kaaba.

但是我卻覺得非常有趣

They were together while praying.

在天房裡，沒有將男女隔離開來

And if you wonder why this is interesting at all,

意思就是說，男人女人

you have to see the rest of Saudi Arabia,

在同一個空間裡一起做禮拜

because this a country which is strictly divided between the sexes.

在行塔瓦夫禮，也就是繞天房角落的黑石時

In other words:

男女也是在一起的

as men, you are simply not supposed to be in the same physical space

男女在一起祈禱

with women.

如果你不明白這有什麼有趣的

And I noticed this in a very funny way.

你可以去沙烏地阿拉伯其他的地方看看

I left the Kaaba to eat something in downtown Mecca.

因為在這個國家裡

I headed to the nearest Burger King restaurant.

男女是被嚴格分離開來的

And I went there -- I noticed that there was a male section,

也就是說

which is carefully separated from the female section.

男人無論如何都不應該

I had to pay, order and eat in the male section.

與女人在同一個空間裡

"It's funny," I said to myself,

有趣的是我怎樣注意到這點的

"You can mingle with the opposite sex at the holy Kaaba,

我離開了天房

but not at the Burger King?"

去麥加市中心找吃的東西

(Laughter)

我去了距離天房最近的漢堡王

Quite, quite ironic.

在那裡

Ironic, and it's also, I think, quite telling,

我發現這裡有一個男性用餐區

because the Kaaba and the rituals around it

很嚴格地與女性用餐區分割開來

are relics from the earliest phase of Islam,

我必須在男性用餐區點餐，付賬，用餐

that of prophet Muhammad.

“這太有趣了，”我和我自己說

And if there was a big emphasis at the time to separate men from women,

“你可以跟異性在神聖的天房一起做事情，

the rituals around the Kaaba could have been designed accordingly.

卻不能在漢堡王這樣做。

But apparently, that was not an issue at the time.

很諷刺不是嗎?

So the rituals came that way.

我認為這不僅有諷刺意味，還值得我們去深入探討

This is also, I think, confirmed by the fact

因為天房與其中進行的儀式

that the seclusion of women in creating a divided society

都是從最早期的伊斯蘭傳統中流傳下來的

is something that you also do not find in the Koran --

早至先知穆罕默德的時代

the very core of Islam, the divine core of Islam --

如果當時伊斯蘭很重視

that all Muslims, equally myself, believe.

將男女分割開來

And I think it's not an accident

天房的宗教儀式也會反映這一點

that you don't find this idea in the very origin of Islam,

但是，我們很明顯可以看到，當時這並不是一個問題

because many scholars who study the history of Islamic thought --

所以儀式是男女一起的

Muslim scholars or Westerners --

我認為這同時也驗證了

think that, actually, the practice of dividing men and women physically

將女性隔離出去

came as a later development in Islam,

創造一個兩性分隔的社會

as Muslims adopted some preexisting cultures

並不是從古蘭經中來的

and traditions of the Middle East.

而古蘭經是伊斯蘭教的核心

Seclusion of women was actually a Byzantine and Persian practice,

伊斯蘭最神聖的核心

and Muslims adopted it and made it a part of their religion.

是包括我在內的所有穆斯林的信仰

Actually, this is just one example of a much larger phenomenon.

我認為在古蘭經，

What we call today Islamic law, and especially Islamic culture --

這個伊斯蘭的源頭中

and there are many Islamic cultures, actually;

無法找到男女分隔的要求並不令人驚奇

the one in Saudi Arabia is much different

因為，據許多學者研究

from where I come from in Istanbul or Turkey.

伊斯蘭思想史的

But still, if you're going to speak about a Muslim culture,

穆斯林學者，或者西方學者說

this has a core: the divine message which began the religion.

事實上，將男女從空間上分隔開來的

But then many traditions, perceptions, practices were added on top of it.

這個習俗

And these were traditions of the Middle East medieval traditions.

是伊斯蘭較後期發展出來的

There are two important messages, or two lessons,

當穆斯林開始遵循

to take from that reality.

一些中東地區已有的文化跟傳統

First of all, Muslims --

將女性排除出主流社會事實上

pious, conservative, believing Muslims who want to be loyal to their religion --

是一個拜占庭和波斯的習俗

should not cling onto everything in their culture,

穆斯林後來沿襲了這個習俗

thinking that that's divinely mandated.

並使之成為自己宗教的一部分

Maybe some things are bad traditions and they need to be changed.

事實上，這個例子

On the other hand, the Westerners who look at Islamic culture

只說明了整體現象的冰山一角

and see some troubling aspects

我們目前所理解的伊斯蘭法，特別是伊斯蘭文化——

should not readily conclude that this is what Islam ordains.

事實上伊斯蘭文化也分很多種

Maybe it's a Middle Eastern culture that became confused with Islam.

沙烏地阿拉伯的文化與

There is a practice called female circumcision.

我的家鄉伊斯坦堡，或者整個土耳其，是有很大不同的

It's something terrible, horrible.

但是

It is basically an operation to deprive women of sexual pleasure.

如果我們要談穆斯林文化

And Westerners --

這個文化裡有一個很核心很神聖的訊息

Europeans or Americans -- who didn't know about this before,

開啟了這個宗教的源頭

[saw] this practice

但是之後很多傳統，觀念

within some of the Muslim communities who migrated from North Africa.

習俗被加在了這個訊息之上

And they've thought,

這些就是中世紀中東的一些習俗

"Oh, what a horrible religion that is, which ordains something like that."

知道了這個之後

But when you look at female circumcision,

我想引出兩個訊息，或者是兩點我們需要學習的

you see that it has nothing to do with Islam;

首先，穆斯林——

it's just a North African practice which predates Islam.

虔誠的，傳統的，忠實於其信仰的穆斯林

It was there for thousands of years.

不應一板一眼的遵循他們文化中的所有習俗

And, quite tellingly, some Muslims do practice it --

認為這些習俗是神的旨意

the Muslims in North Africa, not in other places.

有可能有些是不好的傳統

But also the non-Muslim communities of North Africa --

需要被改變的習俗

the animists, some Christians and even a Jewish tribe in North Africa --

另外，作為西方人

are known to practice female circumcision.

當研究伊斯蘭文化

So what might look like a problem within Islamic faith

並發現一些令人不安的內容的時候

might turn out to be a tradition that Muslims have subscribed to.

不應該馬上就歸納這些文化中的習俗是伊斯蘭原始教旨的一部分

The same thing can be said for honor killings,

很有可能這只是中東文化的一部分

which is a recurrent theme in the Western media --

與伊斯蘭文化混雜了起來

and which is, of course, a horrible tradition.

有一個習俗，叫做女性割禮

And we see, truly, in some Muslim communities, that tradition.

這是一個很可怕，很恐怖的習俗

But in the non-Muslim communities of the Middle East,

它是一個手術

such as some Christian communities, Eastern communities,

一個剝奪女性性高潮的手術

you see the same practice.

西方人，不論是歐洲人還是美國人

We had a tragic case of an honor killing

如果不知道這個習俗的由來

within Turkey's Armenian community just a few months ago.

在一些從北非移民的

Now, these are things about general culture,

穆斯林的社群裡

but I'm also very much interested in political culture

發現了這個習俗

and whether liberty and democracy is appreciated,

西方人會想，”天啊，伊斯蘭教太恐怖了，

or whether there's an authoritarian political culture

居然教教徒們做這種事情

in which the state is supposed to impose things on the citizens.

但是如果你再進一步了解女性割禮

And it is no secret

你就會發現，這個習俗與伊斯蘭毫無關係

that many Islamic movements in the Middle East

它只是北非的一個習俗

tend to be authoritarian,

比伊斯蘭更早產生

and some of the so-called "Islamic regimes,"

這個習俗已經存在了幾千年了

such as Saudi Arabia, Iran and the worst case, the Taliban in Afghanistan,

很明顯一些穆斯林確實有這樣的習俗

they are pretty authoritarian -- no doubt about that.

僅在北非，而不是其他地區的穆斯林

For example, in Saudi Arabia,

但是還有其他北非地區的非穆斯林群體

there is a phenomenon called the religious police.

萬物有靈論者，甚至一些基督徒

And the religious police imposes the supposed Islamic way of life

甚至還有一個北非地區的猶太部落

on every citizen, by force --

都有這樣的習俗

like, women are forced to cover their heads --

所以這個貌似是伊斯蘭信仰問題的

wear the hijab, the Islamic head cover.

問題

Now that is pretty authoritarian,

就成了一個

and that's something I'm very much critical of.

穆斯林從別處借來並沿襲的傳統

But when I realized that the non-Muslim,

同樣的道理適用於"名譽殺害"

or the non-Islamic-minded actors in the same geography

這個問題經常在西方媒體中被提到

sometimes behaved similarly,

當然這是一個非常恐怖的傳統

I realized that the problem maybe lies

並且我們確實在一些穆斯林群體中看到這一傳統

in the political culture of the whole region, not just Islam.

但是在一些其他中東地區的非穆斯林群體中

Let me give you an example: in Turkey, where I come from,

比如說基督教群體，東方人（注：非通常意義上的亞洲東方人，而是中東地區的東方人種）群體中

which is a very hyper-secular republic,

你也發現相同的習俗

until very recently, we used to have what I call "secularism police,"

在土耳其的亞美尼亞群體中

which would guard the universities against veiled students.

發生了一個名譽殺害的慘劇

In other words, they would force students to uncover their heads.

就在幾個月前

And I think forcing people to uncover their head

我上面談到的是普通大眾文化範圍內的事情

is as tyrannical as forcing them to cover it.

我同樣對政治文化也很感興趣

It should be the citizen's decision.

還有在一個政治文化裡自由與民主是否被珍視

But when I saw that, I said,

以及是否這個政治文化里有獨裁的成分存在

"Maybe the problem is just an authoritarian culture in the region,

也就是說國家想向公民強加一些事實

and some Muslims have been influenced by that.

大家都知道

But the secular-minded people can be influenced by that.

中東地區的很多伊斯蘭運動

Maybe it's a problem of the political culture,

都很傾向於獨裁

and we have to think about how to change that political culture."

並且一些所謂的“伊斯蘭政權”

Now, these are some of the questions I had in mind a few years ago

比如說沙烏地阿拉伯，伊朗

when I sat down to write a book.

還有最嚴重的阿富汗的塔利班政權

I said, "Well, I will do research

毫無疑問都是很獨裁的

about how Islam actually came to be what it is today,

比如說，在沙烏地阿拉伯

and what roads were taken and what roads could have been taken."

有一種叫做宗教警察的東西

The name of the book is "Islam Without Extremes: A Muslim Case for Liberty."

宗教警察用暴力確保

And as the subtitle suggests,

每個公民都遵循

I looked at Islamic tradition and the history of Islamic thought

所謂的伊斯蘭的生活方式

from the perspective of individual liberty,

比如說女性被強制要求戴頭巾

and I tried to find what are the strengths with regard to individual liberty.

那種伊斯蘭式大蓋頭

And there are strengths in Islamic tradition.

這是很獨裁的

Islam, actually, as a monotheistic religion,

並且我對此很持批判態度

which defined man as a responsible agent by itself,

但是當我意識到

created the idea of the individual in the Middle East,

這一地區的非穆斯林

and saved it from the communitarianism, the collectivism of the tribe.

或者說非伊斯蘭信仰者

You can derive many ideas from that.

有時也這麼做(指戴頭巾)

But besides that, I also saw problems within Islamic tradition.

我就意識到這個問題可能

But one thing was curious:

不僅是伊斯蘭的問題，而是這一地區政治文化的問題

most of those problems turn out to be problems that emerged later,

我來給你舉個例子：我的家鄉土耳其

not from the very divine core of Islam, the Koran,

是一個極度世俗化的共和國

but from, again, traditions and mentalities,

直到很不久之前

or the interpretations of the Koran that Muslims made in the Middle Ages.

在土耳其存在著一些我稱作世俗警察的人

The Koran, for example, doesn't condone stoning.

這些人不讓戴頭巾的

There is no punishment for apostasy.

學生進入校園

There is no punishment for personal sins like drinking.

換句話說，他們強制學生

These things which make Islamic law,

不戴頭巾

the troubling aspects of Islamic law,

我認為，強制人們不戴頭巾與

were developed into later interpretations of Islam.

強制人們戴頭巾是一樣的暴政行為

Which means that Muslims can, today,

這應當是每個公民自己的選擇

look at those things and say,

當我看到這樣的現象的時候，我就說

"Well, the core of our religion is here to stay with us.

“可能問題

It's our faith, and we will be loyal to it.

只是這一地區的獨裁政治文化，

But we can change how it was interpreted,

並且一些穆斯林被這樣的文化所影響。”

because it was interpreted according to the time

一些很世俗化的人也會被這樣的文化所影響

and milieu in the Middle Ages.

可能這就是一個政治文化的問題

Now we're living in a different world,

我們應該來思考

with different values and political systems."

如果改變這種政治文化

That interpretation is quite possible and feasible.

這些是我幾年前

Now, if I were the only person thinking that way,

開始寫書的時候

we would be in trouble.

想到的一些問題

But that's not the case at all.

我就想，“讓我來對於

Actually, from the 19th century on,

伊斯蘭是怎樣發展到今天來做一些研究，

there's a whole revisionist, reformist -- whatever you call it -- tradition,

經過了怎樣的發展道路

a trend in Islamic thinking.

本來有可能向哪些方向發展。”

These were intellectuals or statesmen

我的書的題目是《無極端伊斯蘭：穆斯林的自由研究》

of the 19th century, and later, 20th century,

書的副標題點出了書的內容

which looked at Europe, basically,

我從個人自由的角度

and saw that Europe has many things to admire,

研究了伊斯蘭傳統跟伊斯蘭思想史

like science and technology.

並且我試圖去找個人自由的

But not just that; also democracy, parliament,

優越之處

the idea of representation,

同樣，伊斯蘭傳統也有其優越之處

the idea of equal citizenship.

伊斯蘭，作為一個一神論的宗教

These Muslim thinkers, intellectuals and statesmen of the 19th century,

將人定義成為一個自身責任的個體

looked at Europe, saw these things, and said,

在中東創造了"個人"這一概念

"Why don't we have these things?"

並保護這一概念不受社群主義

And they looked back at Islamic tradition,

與部落集體主義的侵蝕

and saw that there are problematic aspects,

你可以從這一概念中衍生出很多內容

but they're not the core of the religion, so maybe they can be re-understood,

但是除此之外，我也看到了伊斯蘭傳統中的問題

and the Koran can be reread in the modern world.

但是有一點很值得我們思考

That trend is generally called Islamic modernism,

那就是大部分的問題都是伊斯蘭發展後期產生的

and it was advanced by intellectuals and statesmen,

不是基於伊斯蘭的神聖核心，可蘭經

not just as an intellectual idea, though,

而是，就像我們前面講到的，從一些中東地區中世紀的傳統

but also as a political program.

跟心理現象

And that's why, actually, in the 19th century,

或者對於可蘭經的解讀而來的

the Ottoman Empire, which then covered the whole Middle East,

比方說，可蘭經

made very important reforms --

並不支持石刑

reforms like giving Christians and Jews an equal citizenship status,

叛教不會受到處罰

accepting a constitution,

對於一些個人行為，比如飲酒，也沒有處罰

accepting a representative parliament,

這些在伊斯蘭法中的規定

advancing the idea of freedom of religion.

特別是伊斯蘭法中令人不安部分

That's why the Ottoman Empire, in its last decades,

是後來從伊斯蘭的一些後期解讀中發展而來的

turned into a proto-democracy, a constitutional monarchy,

這就意味著當今的穆斯林可以

and freedom was a very important political value at the time.

這樣理解這些伊斯蘭法的要求

Similarly, in the Arab world,

“嗯，我們宗教的核心

there was what the great Arab historian Albert Hourani defines

與我們同在

as the Liberal Age.

這是我們的信仰，我們會對我們的信仰忠誠。”

He has a book, "Arabic Thought in the Liberal Age,"

但是我們可以改變我們對於宗教的解讀

and the Liberal Age, he defines as 19th century and early 20th century.

因為現在宗教是基於中世紀的時間與環境背景而解讀的

Quite notably, this was the dominant trend in the early 20th century

我們現在生活在一個不同的世界裡

among Islamic thinkers and statesmen and theologians.

有不同的價值取向以及政治體系

But there is a very curious pattern in the rest of the 20th century,

這樣的想法是很有可能並且行得通的。

because we see a sharp decline in this Islamic modernist line.

但是如果只有我一個人這樣想

And in place of that,

就有麻煩了

what happens is that Islamism grows as an ideology which is authoritarian,

但是不是這樣的

which is quite strident,

事實上，從19世紀開始

which is quite anti-Western,

已經有了一個修正主義的，改良主義——

and which wants to shape society based on a utopian vision.

隨便你怎樣命名——

So Islamism is the problematic idea

這樣的一個傳統

that really created a lot of problems in the 20th-century Islamic world.

一個伊斯蘭思想界的傾向

And even the very extreme forms of Islamism

並且有一些19世紀20世紀的

led to terrorism in the name of Islam --

知識分子與政治家

which is actually a practice that I think is against Islam,

他們對於歐洲進行了一些研究

but some, obviously, extremists, did not think that way.

發現歐洲有很多值得學習借鑒的東西

But there is a curious question:

比如科學技術

If Islamic modernism was so popular in the 19th and early 20th centuries,

但是不僅如此，還有民主，議會

why did Islamism become so popular in the rest of the 20th century?

"代表制度"這一個的想法

And this is a question, I think, which needs to be discussed carefully.

平等公民權的概念

In my book, I went into that question as well.

這些生活在19世紀的穆斯林思想家

And actually, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to understand that.

知識分子，以及政治家看到歐洲有這些東西

Just look at the political history of the 20th century,

他們就說，“為什麼我們不能有這些東西呢？”

and you see things have changed a lot.