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  • A few weeks ago, I had a chance to go to Saudi Arabia.

    譯者: Yakun Li 審譯者: Sean Chuang

  • And the first thing I wanted to do as a Muslim

    幾週前

  • was to go to Mecca and visit the Kaaba,

    我有幸去了沙烏地阿拉伯一趟

  • the holiest shrine of Islam.

    作為一個穆斯林,我最想做的事情

  • And I did that; I put on my ritualistic dress,

    就是去麥加的天房

  • I went to the holy mosque,

    伊斯蘭最神聖的廟堂

  • I did my prayers,

    我去了天房;我穿上了我朝聖的服裝

  • I observed all the rituals.

    去了這個神聖的清真寺

  • And meanwhile, besides all the spirituality,

    我禱告

  • there was one mundane detail in the Kaaba

    並遵循的所有儀式的流程

  • that was pretty interesting for me:

    同時

  • there was no separation of sexes.

    我發現在這一切神性之外

  • In other words, men and women were worshiping all together.

    天房儀式中有一個很不起眼的細節

  • They were together while doing tawāf, the circular walk around the Kaaba.

    但是我卻覺得非常有趣

  • They were together while praying.

    在天房裡,沒有將男女隔離開來

  • And if you wonder why this is interesting at all,

    意思就是說,男人女人

  • you have to see the rest of Saudi Arabia,

    在同一個空間裡一起做禮拜

  • because this a country which is strictly divided between the sexes.

    在行塔瓦夫禮,也就是繞天房角落的黑石時

  • In other words:

    男女也是在一起的

  • as men, you are simply not supposed to be in the same physical space

    男女在一起祈禱

  • with women.

    如果你不明白這有什麼有趣的

  • And I noticed this in a very funny way.

    你可以去沙烏地阿拉伯其他的地方看看

  • I left the Kaaba to eat something in downtown Mecca.

    因為在這個國家裡

  • I headed to the nearest Burger King restaurant.

    男女是被嚴格分離開來的

  • And I went there -- I noticed that there was a male section,

    也就是說

  • which is carefully separated from the female section.

    男人無論如何都不應該

  • I had to pay, order and eat in the male section.

    與女人在同一個空間裡

  • "It's funny," I said to myself,

    有趣的是我怎樣注意到這點的

  • "You can mingle with the opposite sex at the holy Kaaba,

    我離開了天房

  • but not at the Burger King?"

    去麥加市中心找吃的東西

  • (Laughter)

    我去了距離天房最近的漢堡王

  • Quite, quite ironic.

    在那裡

  • Ironic, and it's also, I think, quite telling,

    我發現這裡有一個男性用餐區

  • because the Kaaba and the rituals around it

    很嚴格地與女性用餐區分割開來

  • are relics from the earliest phase of Islam,

    我必須在男性用餐區點餐,付賬,用餐

  • that of prophet Muhammad.

    “這太有趣了,”我和我自己說

  • And if there was a big emphasis at the time to separate men from women,

    “你可以跟異性在神聖的天房一起做事情,

  • the rituals around the Kaaba could have been designed accordingly.

    卻不能在漢堡王這樣做。

  • But apparently, that was not an issue at the time.

    很諷刺不是嗎?

  • So the rituals came that way.

    我認為這不僅有諷刺意味,還值得我們去深入探討

  • This is also, I think, confirmed by the fact

    因為天房與其中進行的儀式

  • that the seclusion of women in creating a divided society

    都是從最早期的伊斯蘭傳統中流傳下來的

  • is something that you also do not find in the Koran --

    早至先知穆罕默德的時代

  • the very core of Islam, the divine core of Islam --

    如果當時伊斯蘭很重視

  • that all Muslims, equally myself, believe.

    將男女分割開來

  • And I think it's not an accident

    天房的宗教儀式也會反映這一點

  • that you don't find this idea in the very origin of Islam,

    但是,我們很明顯可以看到,當時這並不是一個問題

  • because many scholars who study the history of Islamic thought --

    所以儀式是男女一起的

  • Muslim scholars or Westerners --

    我認為這同時也驗證了

  • think that, actually, the practice of dividing men and women physically

    將女性隔離出去

  • came as a later development in Islam,

    創造一個兩性分隔的社會

  • as Muslims adopted some preexisting cultures

    並不是從古蘭經中來的

  • and traditions of the Middle East.

    而古蘭經是伊斯蘭教的核心

  • Seclusion of women was actually a Byzantine and Persian practice,

    伊斯蘭最神聖的核心

  • and Muslims adopted it and made it a part of their religion.

    是包括我在內的所有穆斯林的信仰

  • Actually, this is just one example of a much larger phenomenon.

    我認為在古蘭經,

  • What we call today Islamic law, and especially Islamic culture --

    這個伊斯蘭的源頭中

  • and there are many Islamic cultures, actually;

    無法找到男女分隔的要求並不令人驚奇

  • the one in Saudi Arabia is much different

    因為,據許多學者研究

  • from where I come from in Istanbul or Turkey.

    伊斯蘭思想史的

  • But still, if you're going to speak about a Muslim culture,

    穆斯林學者,或者西方學者說

  • this has a core: the divine message which began the religion.

    事實上,將男女從空間上分隔開來的

  • But then many traditions, perceptions, practices were added on top of it.

    這個習俗

  • And these were traditions of the Middle East medieval traditions.

    是伊斯蘭較後期發展出來的

  • There are two important messages, or two lessons,

    當穆斯林開始遵循

  • to take from that reality.

    一些中東地區已有的文化跟傳統

  • First of all, Muslims --

    將女性排除出主流社會事實上

  • pious, conservative, believing Muslims who want to be loyal to their religion --

    是一個拜占庭和波斯的習俗

  • should not cling onto everything in their culture,

    穆斯林後來沿襲了這個習俗

  • thinking that that's divinely mandated.

    並使之成為自己宗教的一部分

  • Maybe some things are bad traditions and they need to be changed.

    事實上,這個例子

  • On the other hand, the Westerners who look at Islamic culture

    只說明了整體現象的冰山一角

  • and see some troubling aspects

    我們目前所理解的伊斯蘭法,特別是伊斯蘭文化——

  • should not readily conclude that this is what Islam ordains.

    事實上伊斯蘭文化也分很多種

  • Maybe it's a Middle Eastern culture that became confused with Islam.

    沙烏地阿拉伯的文化與

  • There is a practice called female circumcision.

    我的家鄉伊斯坦堡,或者整個土耳其,是有很大不同的

  • It's something terrible, horrible.

    但是

  • It is basically an operation to deprive women of sexual pleasure.

    如果我們要談穆斯林文化

  • And Westerners --

    這個文化裡有一個很核心很神聖的訊息

  • Europeans or Americans -- who didn't know about this before,

    開啟了這個宗教的源頭

  • [saw] this practice

    但是之後很多傳統,觀念

  • within some of the Muslim communities who migrated from North Africa.

    習俗被加在了這個訊息之上

  • And they've thought,

    這些就是中世紀中東的一些習俗

  • "Oh, what a horrible religion that is, which ordains something like that."

    知道了這個之後

  • But when you look at female circumcision,

    我想引出兩個訊息,或者是兩點我們需要學習的

  • you see that it has nothing to do with Islam;

    首先,穆斯林——

  • it's just a North African practice which predates Islam.

    虔誠的,傳統的,忠實於其信仰的穆斯林

  • It was there for thousands of years.

    不應一板一眼的遵循他們文化中的所有習俗

  • And, quite tellingly, some Muslims do practice it --

    認為這些習俗是神的旨意

  • the Muslims in North Africa, not in other places.

    有可能有些是不好的傳統

  • But also the non-Muslim communities of North Africa --

    需要被改變的習俗

  • the animists, some Christians and even a Jewish tribe in North Africa --

    另外,作為西方人

  • are known to practice female circumcision.

    當研究伊斯蘭文化

  • So what might look like a problem within Islamic faith

    並發現一些令人不安的內容的時候

  • might turn out to be a tradition that Muslims have subscribed to.

    不應該馬上就歸納這些文化中的習俗是伊斯蘭原始教旨的一部分

  • The same thing can be said for honor killings,

    很有可能這只是中東文化的一部分

  • which is a recurrent theme in the Western media --

    與伊斯蘭文化混雜了起來

  • and which is, of course, a horrible tradition.

    有一個習俗,叫做女性割禮

  • And we see, truly, in some Muslim communities, that tradition.

    這是一個很可怕,很恐怖的習俗

  • But in the non-Muslim communities of the Middle East,

    它是一個手術

  • such as some Christian communities, Eastern communities,

    一個剝奪女性性高潮的手術

  • you see the same practice.

    西方人,不論是歐洲人還是美國人

  • We had a tragic case of an honor killing

    如果不知道這個習俗的由來

  • within Turkey's Armenian community just a few months ago.

    在一些從北非移民的

  • Now, these are things about general culture,

    穆斯林的社群裡

  • but I'm also very much interested in political culture

    發現了這個習俗

  • and whether liberty and democracy is appreciated,

    西方人會想,”天啊,伊斯蘭教太恐怖了,

  • or whether there's an authoritarian political culture

    居然教教徒們做這種事情

  • in which the state is supposed to impose things on the citizens.

    但是如果你再進一步了解女性割禮

  • And it is no secret

    你就會發現,這個習俗與伊斯蘭毫無關係

  • that many Islamic movements in the Middle East

    它只是北非的一個習俗

  • tend to be authoritarian,

    比伊斯蘭更早產生

  • and some of the so-called "Islamic regimes,"

    這個習俗已經存在了幾千年了

  • such as Saudi Arabia, Iran and the worst case, the Taliban in Afghanistan,

    很明顯一些穆斯林確實有這樣的習俗

  • they are pretty authoritarian -- no doubt about that.

    僅在北非,而不是其他地區的穆斯林

  • For example, in Saudi Arabia,

    但是還有其他北非地區的非穆斯林群體

  • there is a phenomenon called the religious police.

    萬物有靈論者,甚至一些基督徒

  • And the religious police imposes the supposed Islamic way of life

    甚至還有一個北非地區的猶太部落

  • on every citizen, by force --

    都有這樣的習俗

  • like, women are forced to cover their heads --

    所以這個貌似是伊斯蘭信仰問題的

  • wear the hijab, the Islamic head cover.

    問題

  • Now that is pretty authoritarian,

    就成了一個

  • and that's something I'm very much critical of.

    穆斯林從別處借來並沿襲的傳統

  • But when I realized that the non-Muslim,

    同樣的道理適用於"名譽殺害"

  • or the non-Islamic-minded actors in the same geography

    這個問題經常在西方媒體中被提到

  • sometimes behaved similarly,

    當然這是一個非常恐怖的傳統

  • I realized that the problem maybe lies

    並且我們確實在一些穆斯林群體中看到這一傳統

  • in the political culture of the whole region, not just Islam.

    但是在一些其他中東地區的非穆斯林群體中

  • Let me give you an example: in Turkey, where I come from,

    比如說基督教群體,東方人(注:非通常意義上的亞洲東方人,而是中東地區的東方人種)群體中

  • which is a very hyper-secular republic,

    你也發現相同的習俗

  • until very recently, we used to have what I call "secularism police,"

    在土耳其的亞美尼亞群體中

  • which would guard the universities against veiled students.

    發生了一個名譽殺害的慘劇

  • In other words, they would force students to uncover their heads.

    就在幾個月前

  • And I think forcing people to uncover their head

    我上面談到的是普通大眾文化範圍內的事情

  • is as tyrannical as forcing them to cover it.

    我同樣對政治文化也很感興趣

  • It should be the citizen's decision.

    還有在一個政治文化裡自由與民主是否被珍視

  • But when I saw that, I said,

    以及是否這個政治文化里有獨裁的成分存在

  • "Maybe the problem is just an authoritarian culture in the region,

    也就是說國家想向公民強加一些事實

  • and some Muslims have been influenced by that.

    大家都知道

  • But the secular-minded people can be influenced by that.

    中東地區的很多伊斯蘭運動

  • Maybe it's a problem of the political culture,

    都很傾向於獨裁

  • and we have to think about how to change that political culture."

    並且一些所謂的“伊斯蘭政權”

  • Now, these are some of the questions I had in mind a few years ago

    比如說沙烏地阿拉伯,伊朗

  • when I sat down to write a book.

    還有最嚴重的阿富汗的塔利班政權

  • I said, "Well, I will do research

    毫無疑問都是很獨裁的

  • about how Islam actually came to be what it is today,

    比如說,在沙烏地阿拉伯

  • and what roads were taken and what roads could have been taken."

    有一種叫做宗教警察的東西

  • The name of the book is "Islam Without Extremes: A Muslim Case for Liberty."

    宗教警察用暴力確保

  • And as the subtitle suggests,

    每個公民都遵循

  • I looked at Islamic tradition and the history of Islamic thought

    所謂的伊斯蘭的生活方式

  • from the perspective of individual liberty,

    比如說女性被強制要求戴頭巾

  • and I tried to find what are the strengths with regard to individual liberty.

    那種伊斯蘭式大蓋頭

  • And there are strengths in Islamic tradition.

    這是很獨裁的

  • Islam, actually, as a monotheistic religion,

    並且我對此很持批判態度

  • which defined man as a responsible agent by itself,

    但是當我意識到

  • created the idea of the individual in the Middle East,

    這一地區的非穆斯林

  • and saved it from the communitarianism, the collectivism of the tribe.

    或者說非伊斯蘭信仰者

  • You can derive many ideas from that.

    有時也這麼做(指戴頭巾)

  • But besides that, I also saw problems within Islamic tradition.

    我就意識到這個問題可能

  • But one thing was curious:

    不僅是伊斯蘭的問題,而是這一地區政治文化的問題

  • most of those problems turn out to be problems that emerged later,

    我來給你舉個例子:我的家鄉土耳其

  • not from the very divine core of Islam, the Koran,

    是一個極度世俗化的共和國

  • but from, again, traditions and mentalities,

    直到很不久之前

  • or the interpretations of the Koran that Muslims made in the Middle Ages.

    在土耳其存在著一些我稱作世俗警察的人

  • The Koran, for example, doesn't condone stoning.

    這些人不讓戴頭巾的

  • There is no punishment for apostasy.

    學生進入校園

  • There is no punishment for personal sins like drinking.

    換句話說,他們強制學生

  • These things which make Islamic law,

    不戴頭巾

  • the troubling aspects of Islamic law,

    我認為,強制人們不戴頭巾與

  • were developed into later interpretations of Islam.

    強制人們戴頭巾是一樣的暴政行為

  • Which means that Muslims can, today,

    這應當是每個公民自己的選擇

  • look at those things and say,

    當我看到這樣的現象的時候,我就說

  • "Well, the core of our religion is here to stay with us.

    “可能問題

  • It's our faith, and we will be loyal to it.

    只是這一地區的獨裁政治文化,

  • But we can change how it was interpreted,

    並且一些穆斯林被這樣的文化所影響。”

  • because it was interpreted according to the time

    一些很世俗化的人也會被這樣的文化所影響

  • and milieu in the Middle Ages.

    可能這就是一個政治文化的問題

  • Now we're living in a different world,

    我們應該來思考

  • with different values and political systems."

    如果改變這種政治文化

  • That interpretation is quite possible and feasible.

    這些是我幾年前

  • Now, if I were the only person thinking that way,

    開始寫書的時候

  • we would be in trouble.

    想到的一些問題

  • But that's not the case at all.

    我就想,“讓我來對於

  • Actually, from the 19th century on,

    伊斯蘭是怎樣發展到今天來做一些研究,

  • there's a whole revisionist, reformist -- whatever you call it -- tradition,

    經過了怎樣的發展道路

  • a trend in Islamic thinking.

    本來有可能向哪些方向發展。”

  • These were intellectuals or statesmen

    我的書的題目是《無極端伊斯蘭:穆斯林的自由研究》

  • of the 19th century, and later, 20th century,

    書的副標題點出了書的內容

  • which looked at Europe, basically,

    我從個人自由的角度

  • and saw that Europe has many things to admire,

    研究了伊斯蘭傳統跟伊斯蘭思想史

  • like science and technology.

    並且我試圖去找個人自由的

  • But not just that; also democracy, parliament,

    優越之處

  • the idea of representation,

    同樣,伊斯蘭傳統也有其優越之處

  • the idea of equal citizenship.

    伊斯蘭,作為一個一神論的宗教

  • These Muslim thinkers, intellectuals and statesmen of the 19th century,

    將人定義成為一個自身責任的個體

  • looked at Europe, saw these things, and said,

    在中東創造了"個人"這一概念

  • "Why don't we have these things?"

    並保護這一概念不受社群主義

  • And they looked back at Islamic tradition,

    與部落集體主義的侵蝕

  • and saw that there are problematic aspects,

    你可以從這一概念中衍生出很多內容

  • but they're not the core of the religion, so maybe they can be re-understood,

    但是除此之外,我也看到了伊斯蘭傳統中的問題

  • and the Koran can be reread in the modern world.

    但是有一點很值得我們思考

  • That trend is generally called Islamic modernism,

    那就是大部分的問題都是伊斯蘭發展後期產生的

  • and it was advanced by intellectuals and statesmen,

    不是基於伊斯蘭的神聖核心,可蘭經

  • not just as an intellectual idea, though,

    而是,就像我們前面講到的,從一些中東地區中世紀的傳統

  • but also as a political program.

    跟心理現象

  • And that's why, actually, in the 19th century,

    或者對於可蘭經的解讀而來的

  • the Ottoman Empire, which then covered the whole Middle East,

    比方說,可蘭經

  • made very important reforms --

    並不支持石刑

  • reforms like giving Christians and Jews an equal citizenship status,

    叛教不會受到處罰

  • accepting a constitution,

    對於一些個人行為,比如飲酒,也沒有處罰

  • accepting a representative parliament,

    這些在伊斯蘭法中的規定

  • advancing the idea of freedom of religion.

    特別是伊斯蘭法中令人不安部分

  • That's why the Ottoman Empire, in its last decades,

    是後來從伊斯蘭的一些後期解讀中發展而來的

  • turned into a proto-democracy, a constitutional monarchy,

    這就意味著當今的穆斯林可以

  • and freedom was a very important political value at the time.

    這樣理解這些伊斯蘭法的要求

  • Similarly, in the Arab world,

    “嗯,我們宗教的核心

  • there was what the great Arab historian Albert Hourani defines

    與我們同在

  • as the Liberal Age.

    這是我們的信仰,我們會對我們的信仰忠誠。”

  • He has a book, "Arabic Thought in the Liberal Age,"

    但是我們可以改變我們對於宗教的解讀

  • and the Liberal Age, he defines as 19th century and early 20th century.

    因為現在宗教是基於中世紀的時間與環境背景而解讀的

  • Quite notably, this was the dominant trend in the early 20th century

    我們現在生活在一個不同的世界裡

  • among Islamic thinkers and statesmen and theologians.

    有不同的價值取向以及政治體系

  • But there is a very curious pattern in the rest of the 20th century,

    這樣的想法是很有可能並且行得通的。

  • because we see a sharp decline in this Islamic modernist line.

    但是如果只有我一個人這樣想

  • And in place of that,

    就有麻煩了

  • what happens is that Islamism grows as an ideology which is authoritarian,

    但是不是這樣的

  • which is quite strident,

    事實上,從19世紀開始

  • which is quite anti-Western,

    已經有了一個修正主義的,改良主義——

  • and which wants to shape society based on a utopian vision.

    隨便你怎樣命名——

  • So Islamism is the problematic idea

    這樣的一個傳統

  • that really created a lot of problems in the 20th-century Islamic world.

    一個伊斯蘭思想界的傾向

  • And even the very extreme forms of Islamism

    並且有一些19世紀20世紀的

  • led to terrorism in the name of Islam --

    知識分子與政治家

  • which is actually a practice that I think is against Islam,

    他們對於歐洲進行了一些研究

  • but some, obviously, extremists, did not think that way.

    發現歐洲有很多值得學習借鑒的東西

  • But there is a curious question:

    比如科學技術

  • If Islamic modernism was so popular in the 19th and early 20th centuries,

    但是不僅如此,還有民主,議會

  • why did Islamism become so popular in the rest of the 20th century?

    "代表制度"這一個的想法

  • And this is a question, I think, which needs to be discussed carefully.

    平等公民權的概念

  • In my book, I went into that question as well.

    這些生活在19世紀的穆斯林思想家

  • And actually, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to understand that.

    知識分子,以及政治家看到歐洲有這些東西

  • Just look at the political history of the 20th century,

    他們就說,“為什麼我們不能有這些東西呢?”

  • and you see things have changed a lot.