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  • Chris Anderson: Thank you so much, Prime Minister,

    克利斯.安德森:很感謝您,首相先生,

  • that was both fascinating and quite inspiring.

    剛剛的演講真是引人入勝又發人省思

  • So, you're calling for a global ethic.

    所以,您要倡導全球倫理

  • Would you describe that as global citizenship?

    您會覺得它就是全球公民責任嗎?

  • Is that an idea that you believe in, and how would you define that?

    這是您深信的概念嗎?您要如何定義它呢?

  • Gordon Brown: It is about global citizenship

    布朗:我認爲這就是全球公民的責任。

  • and recognizing our responsibilities to others.

    就是去認清楚我們對他人的責任。

  • There is so much to do over the next few years

    接下來幾年有很多事要做

  • that is obvious to so many of us

    我們都清楚非得要做點甚麼

  • to build a better world.

    來讓世界變得更好。

  • And there is so much shared sense of what we need to do,

    對於我們該做些什麽

  • that it is vital that we all come together.

    大家也都很有共識

  • But we don't necessarily have the means to do so.

    而合作是非常重要的。

  • So there are challenges to be met.

    但是我們不見得有方法可以做到

  • I believe the concept of global citizenship

    所以接下來有很多的挑戰。

  • will simply grow out of people talking to each other across continents.

    我認爲全球公民責任的概念

  • But of course the task is to create the institutions

    會隨著洲際間的對話自然產生。

  • that make that global society work.

    當然,主要任務是設置

  • But I don't think we should underestimate

    有效的全球社會的組織

  • the extent to which massive changes in technology

    我也認爲我們不該低估

  • make possible the linking up of people across the world.

    科技所帶來的重大改變

  • CA: But people get excited about this idea of global citizenship,

    這使得串連全球的人變得可能。

  • but then they get confused a bit again

    安德森:人們對全球公民的概念很有興趣

  • when they start thinking about patriotism,

    但同時也會有疑惑

  • and how to combine these two.

    當他們想到愛國主義

  • I mean, you're elected as Prime Minister

    並且還要融合這兩個想法。

  • with a brief to bat for Britain.

    人們選您當英國首相

  • How do you reconcile the two things?

    您有捍衛英國的責任

  • GB: Well, of course national identity remains important.

    您要如何去協調這兩種想法呢?

  • But it's not at the expense of people accepting their global responsibilities.

    布朗:當然,國家認同是重要的。

  • And I think one of the problems of recession

    但不能因此把全球責任棄之不顧

  • is that people become more protectionist,

    經濟衰退帶來的問題之一

  • they look in on themselves,

    是保護主義的興起

  • they try to protect their own nation,

    人們只看到自己

  • perhaps at the expense of other nations.

    只會保護自己國家的利益

  • When you actually look at the motor of the world economy,

    並不惜犧牲他國的利益。

  • it cannot move forward

    實際去看看世界經濟的動態

  • unless there is trade between the different countries.

    少了國與國之間的貿易

  • And any nation that would become protectionist over the next few years

    它是無法往前進的。

  • would deprive itself of the chance of getting the benefits

    再過幾年,任一保護主義國家

  • of growth in the world economy.

    自己也將被摒除在外

  • So, you've got to have a healthy sense of patriotism;

    無法分享世界經濟發展的利益。

  • that's absolutely important.

    所以,有健康的愛國主義

  • But you've got to realize that this world has changed fundamentally,

    絕對是重要的

  • and the problems we have cannot be solved by one nation and one nation alone.

    但你也要了解這世界已經根本的改變

  • CA: Well, indeed.

    我們現有的問題

  • But what do you do when the two come into conflict

    不是單一國家就可以解決

  • and you're forced to make a decision

    安德森:的確,但是當這兩個概念有所衝突

  • that either is in Britain's interest, or the interest of Britons,

    而您必需有所抉擇時,您該怎麽做呢?

  • or citizens elsewhere in the world?

    是保護英國的利益

  • GB: Well I think we can persuade people

    或者說是英國人的利益

  • that what is necessary for Britain's long-term interests,

    還是全球其他國民的利益?

  • what is necessary for America's long-term interests,

    布朗:我想我們可以説服國民

  • is proper engagement with the rest of the world,

    為了英國長遠的利益

  • and taking the action that is necessary.

    也爲了美國長遠的利益

  • There is a great story, again, told about Richard Nixon.

    去適當地與全球其他地區的互動

  • 1958, Ghana becomes independent,

    並採取必要的行動。

  • so it is just over 50 years ago.

    有一個關於尼克森的故事

  • Richard Nixon goes to represent the United States government

    1958年,加納獨立了

  • at the celebrations for independence in Ghana.

    恰好才剛過五十年

  • And it's one of his first outings as Vice President to an African country.

    尼克森副總統代表美國出席

  • He doesn't quite know what to do,

    加納的獨立慶祝活動

  • so he starts going around the crowd

    這是他首次以副總統的身份去非洲國家訪問

  • and starts talking to people

    因為不確定該怎麽做,於是他走進人群

  • and he says to people in this rather unique way,

    並和人寒暄

  • "How does it feel to be free?"

    他用一個獨特的開場白

  • And he's going around, "How does it feel to be free?"

    ”自由的感覺怎麽樣?“

  • "How does it feel to be free?"

    邊走邊問”自由的感覺怎麽樣?“

  • And then someone says,

    ”自由的感覺怎麽樣?“

  • "How should I know? I come from Alabama."

    結果有個人回答 “我哪知道?我是從阿拉巴馬來的”

  • (Laughter)

    (笑聲)

  • And that was the 1950s.

    那是五零年代的事了

  • Now, what is remarkable

    值得注意的是

  • is that civil rights in America were achieved in the 1960s.

    美國的民權已在六零年代普及

  • But what is equally remarkable

    不能忽視的是

  • is socioeconomic rights in Africa have not moved forward very fast

    非洲的社會經濟權

  • even since the age of colonialism.

    在結束殖民時代後

  • And yet, America and Africa have got a common interest.

    卻沒有向前快速發展。

  • And we have got to realize that if we don't link up

    然而,美國和非洲

  • with those people who are sensible voices and democratic voices in Africa,

    一直是禍福相依

  • to work together for common causes,

    我們必須知道,如果我們不串起

  • then the danger of Al Qaeda and related groups

    非洲人理性和追求民主的聲音

  • making progress in Africa is very big.

    來一起奮鬥

  • So, I would say that what seems sometimes

    那麽基地組織一類的團體

  • to be altruism, in relation to Africa, or in relation to developing countries,

    在非洲擴張的機會是很大的。

  • is more than that.

    所以我說,我們對非洲

  • It is enlightened self-interest for us to work with other countries.

    或其他發展中國家的作爲

  • And I would say that national interest

    有時候像是利他主義

  • and, if you like, what is the global interest

    其實更多是從自我利益出發

  • to tackle poverty and climate change

    而去跟其他國家合作。

  • do, in the long run, come together.

    我並認爲,國家的利益

  • And whatever the short-run price for taking action on climate change

    跟全球的利益

  • or on security, or taking action to provide opportunities

    如:對付貧窮和氣候變遷

  • for people for education,

    在長期來看,是一致的。

  • these are prices that are worth paying

    在短期間,為應付氣候變遷

  • so that you build a stronger global society

    為安全問題採取行動,或為其他人

  • where people feel able to feel comfortable with each other

    提供教育的機會

  • and are able to communicate with each other in such a way

    這些付出都是值得的

  • that you can actually build stronger links between different countries.

    你將建立一個更健全的全球社會

  • CA: I still just want to draw out on this issue.

    人們可以互相和平共處

  • So, you're on vacation at a nice beach,

    也可以互相溝通

  • and word comes through that there's been a massive earthquake

    各國間的關係也更穩固。

  • and that there is a tsunami advancing on the beach.

    安德森:這裡是牛津,

  • One end of the beach, there is a house containing a family of five Nigerians.

    哲學思想的實驗地。

  • And at the other end of the beach there is a single Brit.

    這裡有一個這樣的例子

  • You have time to --

    我想更深入了解這個議題

  • (Laughter)

    假設您在海灘上度假

  • you have time to alert one house.

    發生了一個大地震

  • What do you do?

    大海嘯接著向海灘襲來

  • (Laughter)

    海灘的一端有一個房子

  • GB: Modern communications.

    住著一家五口的奈及利亞人。

  • (Applause)

    在海灘的另一端

  • Alert both.

    只住一個英國人。

  • (Applause)

    您的時間

  • I do agree that my responsibility

    (笑聲)

  • is first of all to make sure that people in our country are safe.

    只夠通知一戶人家。您會怎麽做?

  • And I wouldn't like anything that is said today to suggest

    (笑聲)

  • that I am diminishing the importance of the responsibility

    布朗:現代的通訊

  • that each leader has for their own country.

    (掌聲)

  • But I'm trying to suggest that there is a huge opportunity

    兩家都通知

  • open to us that was never open to us before.

    (掌聲)

  • But the power to communicate across borders

    我同意我的首要責任

  • allows us to organize the world in a different way.

    是保障我們國民的安全

  • And I think, look at the tsunami, it's a classic example.

    我今天所說的也絕不是企圖

  • Where was the early warning systems?

    削弱各個領導人對他們國家

  • Where was the world acting together

    負起責任的重要性。

  • to deal with the problems that they knew arose

    我們現在有一個大好機會

  • from the potential for earthquakes,

    眼前是全新的局面。

  • as well as the potential for climate change?

    而跨國界溝通的能力

  • And when the world starts to work together,

    讓我們能用新方法來動員這世界。

  • with better early-warning systems,

    東亞的大海嘯,是標準的例子

  • you can deal with some of these problems in a better way.

    那時候有早期預警系統嗎?

  • I just think we're not seeing, at the moment,

    世界各國一起合作

  • the huge opportunities open to us by the ability of people to cooperate

    來應付地震或者是

  • in a world where either there was isolationism before

    氣候變遷可能引起的後果

  • or there was limited alliances based on convenience

    以前有這樣的合作嗎?

  • which never actually took you to deal with some of the central problems.

    當世界各國開始合作

  • CA: But I think this is the frustration

    來準備早期預警系統

  • that perhaps a lot of people have, like people in the audience here,

    這些問題將可以處理得更好。

  • where we love the kind of language that you're talking about.

    只是我們還沒看清

  • It is inspiring.

    擺在我們眼前的大好機會

  • A lot of us believe that that has to be the world's future.

    那就是:藉由人們的合作

  • And yet, when the situation changes,

    才能真的處理到問題的核心

  • you suddenly hear politicians talking as if,

    而這是以前孤立主義

  • you know, for example, the life of one American soldier

    或有限結盟的組織所辦不到的。

  • is worth countless numbers of Iraqi civilians.

    安德森:但我覺得這是很多人

  • When the pedal hits the metal,

    包括在場聽衆都有的挫折感

  • the idealism can get moved away.

    這也是為什麼您的話這麼地鼓舞人心

  • I'm just wondering whether you can see that changing over time,

    大部分的人也都相信

  • whether you see in Britain

    世界的未來就該是這樣。

  • that there are changing attitudes,

    但是,一旦情況改變

  • and that people are actually more supportive

    政治人物又會說另一套

  • of the kind of global ethic that you talk about.

    例如說,好像無數伊拉克百姓的命

  • GB: I think every religion, every faith,

    比一個美國大兵的命還不值。

  • and I'm not just talking here to people of faith or religion --

    一旦踢到鐵板

  • it has this global ethic at the center of its credo.

    理想主義會很快消逝

  • And whether it's Jewish or whether it's Muslim

    我想知道,

  • or whether it's Hindu, or whether it's Sikh,

    您覺得到現在

  • the same global ethic is at the heart of each of these religions.

    或是在英國裏

  • So, I think you're dealing with something

    有看到人們態度的轉變嗎?

  • that people instinctively see as part of their moral sense.

    是否有更多人支持您說的全球倫理?

  • So you're building on something that is not pure self-interest.

    布朗:我認爲所有的宗教,信念

  • You're building on people's ideas and values --

    不只針對有信教的人

  • that perhaps they're candles that burn very dimly on certain occasions.

    其中心信念

  • But it is a set of values that cannot, in my view, be extinguished.

    都有這全球倫理。

  • Then the question is,

    無論是猶太教,回教

  • how do you make that change happen?

    印度教,或錫克教

  • How do you persuade people that it is in their interest

    全球倫理都是

  • to build strong --

    在這些宗教的中心。

  • After the Second World War,

    所以我們談的概念

  • we built institutions, the United Nations,

    本來就是

  • the IMF, the World Bank,

    人們道德感的一部分。

  • the World Trade Organization, the Marshall Plan.

    所以你經營的基礎不是自利

  • There was a period in which people talked about an act of creation,

    是人們的理想和價值觀

  • because these institutions were so new.

    而這就像是在角落

  • But they are now out of date. They don't deal with the problems.

    微微發光的蠟燭

  • You can't deal with the environmental problem

    但這些信念是永遠不會熄滅的。

  • through existing institutions.

    接下來的問題是

  • You can't deal with the security problem in the way that you need to.

    你如何使這個改變發生?

  • You can't deal with the economic and financial problem.

    你如何說服人們

  • So we have got to rebuild our global institutions,

    這是為了他們自身的利益

  • build them in a way that is suitable to the challenges of this time.

    來建立...二次世界大戰後

  • And I believe that if you look at the biggest challenge we face,

    成立了一些國際組織,如聯合國

  • it is to persuade people to have the confidence

    國際貨幣組織,世界銀行

  • that we can build a truly global society

    國際貿易組織,馬歇爾計劃

  • with the institutions that are founded on these rules.

    那時大家還會期待新的作為

  • So, I come back to my initial point.

    因爲這些組織還很新。

  • Sometimes you think things are impossible.

    但現在他們已經過時了。無法應付問題

  • Nobody would have said 50 years ago

    如我所說的,現存的組織

  • that apartheid would have gone in 1990,

    已無法應付環境的問題。

  • or that the Berlin wall would have fallen at the turn of the '80s and '90s,

    安全的問題也無法應付

  • or that polio could be eradicated,

    也無法應付經濟和財政的問題。

  • or perhaps 60 years ago,

    所以我們必須重建全球的組織,

  • nobody would have said a man could gone to the Moon.

    使他們能面對現在的挑戰

  • All these things have happened.

    看看我們現在最大的挑戰

  • By tackling the impossible, you make the impossible possible.

    其實是使人們去相信

  • CA: And we have had a speaker who said that very thing,

    以這些信念建立的組織

  • and swallowed a sword right after that, which was quite dramatic.

    會產生一個真正的全球社會。

  • (Laughter)

    所以,回到我的出發點

  • GB: Followed my sword and swallow.

    總有人說這是辦不到的

  • CA: But, surely a true global ethic is for someone to say,

    50年以前,沒有人會相信

  • "I believe that the life of every human on the planet

    南非的隔離主義會在1990年結束

  • is worth the same, equal consideration,

    或是柏林圍牆

  • regardless of nationality and religion."

    會在八零年代末倒下

  • And you have politicians who have --

    小兒麻痹可以根絕。或是六十年前

  • you're elected.

    沒有人會說人類可以飛上月球

  • In a way, you can't say that.

    但這些事都發生了。

  • Even if, as a human being, you believe that,

    只要開始面對不可能的事,不可能也會變可能。

  • you can't say that.

    安德森:我們之前有個演講者也這麽說

  • You're elected for Britain's interests.

    說完了還表演吞劍。十分有戲劇性。

  • GB: We have a responsibility to protect.

    (笑聲)

  • I mean look, 1918, the Treaty of Versailles,

    接下來該我吞劍了

  • and all the treaties before that,

    安德森:然而,真正的全球倫理

  • the Treaty of Westphalia and everything else,

    是人們可以說

  • were about protecting the sovereign right of countries

    “我相信這世上的每個人

  • to do what they want.

    不論他的國籍和宗教

  • Since then, the world has moved forward,

    都有同樣的價值,得到同等的對待“

  • partly as a result of what happened with the Holocaust,

    身為政治人物,您是由選民選出的

  • and people's concern about the rights of individuals

    某種意義上,您不能這麽說

  • within territories where they need protection,

    即使,身爲人類,您認同這句話

  • partly because of what we saw in Rwanda,

    您還是不能這麽說。人們選您是爲了保衛英國的利益。

  • partly because of what we saw in Bosnia.

    布朗:我們有責任去保護

  • The idea of the responsibility to protect

    看,1918年的凡爾賽條約

  • all individuals who are in situations where they are at humanitarian risk

    和之前所有的條約,威斯特伐利亞條約等

  • is now being established as a principle which governs the world.

    都只是為了保全單一國家主權

  • So, while I can't automatically say

    使他們爲所欲爲。

  • that Britain will rush to the aid of any citizen of any country, in danger,

    在那以後,世界進步了

  • I can say that Britain is in a position

    部分是因爲發生了猶太人大屠殺

  • where we're working with other countries

    人們開始關心他國領土上

  • so that this idea that you have a responsibility

    未受保障的人的權益,

  • to protect people who are victims of either genocide or humanitarian attack,

    部分是因爲看到了盧安達大屠殺

  • is something that is accepted by the whole world.

    還有波士尼亞内戰的慘劇。

  • Now, in the end, that can only be achieved

    “有責任去保護

  • if your international institutions work well enough to be able to do so.

    所有處在人道災難的

  • And that comes back to what the future role of the United Nations,

    情況下的每一個人”

  • and what it can do, actually is.

    已經是管理世界的主流原則之一。

  • But, the responsibility to protect is a new idea that is, in a sense,

    所以,雖然我不能保證

  • taken over from the idea of self-determination

    英國將竭力協助

  • as the principle governing the international community.

    所有處於危難的國家與人民

  • CA: Can you picture, in our lifetimes,

    但我相信英國已經準備好

  • a politician ever going out on a platform

    跟其他國家一起合作

  • of the kind of full-form global ethic, global citizenship?

    這就是 “有責任去保護

  • And basically saying, "I believe that all people across the planet

    受到種族屠殺或人道災難

  • have equal consideration,

    的人民” 的概念。