founder of the Zeitgeist Movement

時代精神運動的創建人

Peter, I know that you have put a major critique of the mainstream media

彼德 我知道你對主流媒體有諸多批判

and its coverage of the Occupy Wall Street movement.

包括了其對佔領華爾街運動的報導方式

Lay this out for me. What's your biggest beef

對我解釋一下 從我們一直看到的

with what we've been seeing in the Occupy Wall Street movement

佔領華爾街運動之中 你最大的抱怨是什麼

and how it's been covered?

以及它是如何被媒體報導的?

- Needless to say the mainstream media is doing

不用說 主流媒體總是在做著

what it always does best and that's maintaining the status quo.

他們最在行的事 即維持現狀

It's not a far-fetched understanding to see that the values

不難理解並看到

that are perpetuated by this system that are associated with wealth generation

目前體系所延續的價值觀 與創造財富有關

and the corporations that run this country are going to do the best they can

而這些大公司打算盡其所能控制社會

to make sure the public is not aware of the growing crisis

確保人們察覺不到日益嚴重的危機

that this economic system is creating across the board.

即現存經濟體制正創造並蔓延的危機

I want to commend RT once again for what I've just seen:

對於我剛才看到的東西 我想再次讚賞Russia Today

It's really wonderful the service that you are providing.

你們提供的服務真的很棒

Mainstream media? I've dismissed it long ago.

主流媒體? 我很早就放棄了

- We appreciate it. We have been out covering this since the first day

我們感到很榮幸 我們從佔領運動的第一天起就在關注

before a lot of people even heard of this, but I will say

甚至在很多人聽說前就知道了 但我要說

that I keep my eyes on what's on the cable networks

我注意到有線電視網路上

and they have started to be out there a little more in terms of covering

開始有更多的媒體報導開始出現

and showing that this is actually going on.

並展示這件事真的在持續中

I do also have to say that I've seen more stories about

我也必須說我看到更多關於

the gap between rich and poor, income and inequality...

貧富 薪資差距以及不平等的事...

You've given up on the mainstream media, but do you think

你已經放棄了主流媒體 但你認為

that after some time, that having this discussion will change things

過一段時間之後 這些議論會引發變革

will lead to a better country?

並導向更好的社會嗎?

- Or a better world. I do think the pressures that are emerging

-或更好的世界 我確實認為壓力正在浮現

are not going to stop. What's been generated with Occupy Wall Street (OWS)

而且不會停止 佔領華爾街觸及了

what underscores that generation: angst, anger.

這一代人的底線:憂慮和憤怒

That 'insurrection' isn't going to stop

"暴動"將不會停止

because of the mechanisms of this system

因為這個體系的機制

(which I'm happy to talk about as we continue) and the mainstream media

(當我們繼續談這點時我會高興的)和主流媒體

will be forced to recognize some attributes of it.

將被迫從中認知到一些特性

But it's always going to be a colored in a particular way

但將總是會以特定方式被渲染抹黑

because that's basically what they have to do.

因為基本上這就是主流媒體必須做的事

That's where their talking points come from.

這就是他們報導的重點來源

But I don't dismiss the mainstream media. I say that in rhetoric.

但我不是真的拋棄主流媒體 這只是一種說辭

Obviously I'm paying attention too or I wouldn't make the commentary that I do

顯然我也在關注 否則我就無法下評論

but I think the public needs to begin to understand

但我想大眾必須開始瞭解到

that having the concentration of corporate power

企業財團集中的權力

ownership of these major, mainstream institutions

它們擁有這些各大主流機構

is always going to produce biased media and it's a natural consequence.

其媒體總是帶有偏見 但這是自然的結果

It's not that the people are unethical who run the mainstream.

那些經營媒體的人士並非不道德

It's just the value that's associated and what they promote.

只是他們必須宣傳這些有關的價值觀

Just like RT and other great more independent avenues

就像Russia Today和其它很棒的獨立消息來源

have values that are much more open, they're much broader

有著更開放 更廣闊的價值

more informed, and therefore you represent actually

訊息更完整 所以你們代表的是

what many people want to see, what the voice of the people may actually be

許多人真正想看及人們可能的真正聲音

as opposed to the filtering that goes through the mainstream.

而不是經過主流媒體篩選過的東西

The entire Occupy Movement began as a blackout

整個佔領運動一開始像停電一樣

and then the outrageous criticisms calling them communists and socialists

接著有狂暴的批評 攻擊這些人為共產或社會主義者

and a bunch of drug addicts or people without jobs and no incentive.

或是一群吸毒者以及沒有動力的失業者

All that stuff went through that phase. Now we have hit a phase

所有事件都會經過這種階段 現在我們達到了一個

where the mainstream is going to pay some type of attention

主流媒體引導視聽的階段

but I want to alert everybody that it's going to be colored

但我想警示每個人 它將會被渲染抹黑

so everyone needs to go to outlets that are not mainstream.

所以每個人需要找尋非主流的途徑

They need to start to frequent blog. They need to frequent

人們必須開始經常使用部落格 以及經常

all of the independent media that has arisen

使用所有新興的獨立媒體

from common people that are reporting.

即從普通大眾而來的報導

Fortunately, we live in a world with everyone having cameras now

幸運地 我們現在的世界每個人都有相機

so it's very easy to go to videoblogs

所以把影片放到部落格上非常簡單

and actually see and digest information yourself.

自己可以很確實地看到並理解訊息

- Or even go to some of these places, some of these parks where people are.

甚至可以去一些有人聚集的園區

It seems like more and more they're happening all around the country.

似乎在美國有越來越多的活動

Peter, I want to talk really quickly about the Zeitgeist Movement.

彼德 我想非常快地討論一下時代精神運動

It encourages also a change in the system.

它也鼓勵改變目前體系

When it comes to some of the things that these protesters on OWS

當這些抗議者們談及一些事情時

are frustrated with: a government with officials that are very much chosen

會感到很失望 例如政府官員可以使用

by the amount of money they can raise, banks being bailed out

大量募得的資金而當選 銀行可以被援助

veterans returning home and not being able to find a job

但退伍軍人返家後卻沒有一份工作

I guess I want to get your take, pick your brain a little bit.

我想要聽聽你的一點意見

What are your solutions to some of these problems?

你對這些問題的解決方案是什麼?

Just to correct the language quickly, it's not 'my' solutions.

快速澄清一下用字 這不是"我的"解決方案

It's solutions that have come about through a very simple technical analysis

這個解決方案 是經由一個非常簡單的技術分析

of what defines society: what creates good public health

去定義一個社會:如何創造良好的公眾健康

good mental health, what we have learned about social management

與良好的心理健康 當談到我們的科學水平時

when it comes to our scientific benchmark.

我們如何學習社會管理

Just to point out before I answer that question, our entire social system

在我回答問題前 我要指出一點:我們的整個社會體系

is based on an archaic view a traditional notion

是根據一種很久以前

that was established long ago.

建立的古老傳統觀念

It's really an extension to feudalism is what the political system is today.

今日的政治體系 真的只是封建制度的延續

The economic system is a socially Darwinistic notion

經濟體系是社會達爾文主義的概念

that there isn't enough to go around, so we have all these mechanisms

即沒有足夠的物資能分配 所以我們的現有機制

built in for scarcity and we now have one billion people starving

都是為了"匱乏"而建造 現在地球上有十億人正在挨餓

on this planet, 3 billion people living on less than $2 a day.

三十億人口每天開銷不到兩美元

You look at the consequences of this system and then you step back

看看這個體系造成的影響 並退一步思考

and you think about what a true economic system might be

一個真正的"經濟"到底是怎樣的

and a train of thought will be established.

然後就會確立一種新的思路

A true economic system is not a system

真正的經濟體系

based on exchange, money and labor for income.

並不是基於交換 金錢和勞動以得到薪資的體系

That's a contrivance that we've concocted through traditional unfoldings

這是我們從歷史傳統中人為創造出來的

as we've learned through time

當我們隨著時間推移而學習

what our place in the world actually is, what we are.

就會演變成為我們現在的世界處境

A true economy, which is what's now emerging in the public mind

真正的經濟概念 即管理地球本身

is the management of the Earth.

正形成於公眾的意識中

A true economy is management of this household that we have

真正的經濟體系是管理這個我們擁有的家庭

and proper management is a technical orientation.

恰當的管理是一種技術導向

Meeting the needs of human population is a technical orientation.

滿足人類需求是一種技術導向

Just as we build an airplane with a very specific design

就像我們有特定的設計 去建造一架飛機一樣

(you can't have too much deviation

(你不能有太多的偏差

or you might injure the efficiency or efficacy of that airplane)

否則就會傷害飛機的性能)

we have to construct society technically.

我們必須利用技術建構社會

I can go on a long tangent about what a technical approach

我可以談論一長串關於社會管理

to the social management may be, but let me just say this:

可能的技術方式是什麼 我就這樣說吧:

If we do not actually begin to manage the Earth's resources

如果我們沒有開始切實地管理地球上的資源

if we do not actually begin to take care of society as it is

沒有開始切實去照料社會本身

we are going to see numerous forms of destabilization occur

我們將會看到各種不穩定的形態發生

systemically breaking down the social order

全面地破壞社會秩序

causing much more chaos than we are beginning to see now.

造成的混亂 會比我們現在開始看到的還多

- Peter, you are speaking in very broad terms.

彼德 你講的範圍太廣了

A total restructuring of society sounds like a great idea

社會轉型聽起來是個不錯的主意

but what about realistically in terms of

但對於這些荼毒社會的具體問題

some of these very specific problems plaguing society right now?

現實上又是怎樣的?

Obviously everyone, especially down there in this movement believes

顯然每個人 特別是這個運動中的人

that an entire restructuring needs to happen

堅信社會重組需要發生

but do you think that there are some things that can happen now?

但你認為有一些事情是現在可以做的嗎?

- Yes, I do think that there are things that can happen now but

當然 我確實認為有些事現在就可以做 但是

the things that will happen now will only be patches

現在做的將只會是修修補補

until the larger order restructuring occurs.

直到更大的秩序重組發生為止

Most of the people in the protest community:

大部份在抗議社群裡的人們

OWS or even in the mainstream activist community

像是佔領華爾街或甚至主流的活動社群

never stop to think about the structure of this system

從未停下來思考目前體系的結構

the structure and the psychology and values

從結構而來的邏輯和價值觀

that come from that structure and what's reinforced.

以及整個結構所強化的東西

That's where the Zeitgeist Movement really comes into play.

就裡就是時代精神運動真正發揮作用的地方

I can list all sorts of things that could alleviate different tensions

我可以列出一堆緩和各種壓力的方法

as far as the debt crisis. First

就債務問題而言 首先

you're going to have to have debt forgiveness across the board

如果你期望停止癌症般增生的債務

if you expect to stop the cancer of debt growth. That's it.

你就要減免一切債務 就這麼簡單

The entire system is based on debt being created

整個體系是基於債務的產生

money being created out of debt, interest charged upon it

錢從債務中被創造 並從中徵收利息

so you have boom, your black hole:

所以你的窟窿就大了:

instant, exponentially increasing, unstoppable, debt growth, period.

迅速 成倍 不停的債務增長 就這樣

That's it. It's structural to the system.

這就是目前體系的結構

How many people are talking about that? Not that many.

有多少人正談論這一點? 並不多

- I think a lot of these protesters are talking about

我想許多這些抗議者正在談論

this system needs to change. Most people are just still very unsure

這個體系需要改變 但大多數人仍然非常不確定

how that happens... Unfortunately we're out of time.

要如何實現... 遺憾的是我們沒有時間了

Peter Joseph, founder of the Zeitgeist Movement.

彼德·約瑟夫 時代精神運動的創建者