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  • really offsets

  • its pleasure to welcome to the program having impose writer and author I love

  • rise of the warrior cop a radley Balko Radley welcome to the program

  • I'm a quarter tank I'm am so I Radley let's start we give us a little bit %uh

  • vay

  • a historical context when did the

  • the cop start to rise to becoming a a warrior

  • well I think it goes back

  • to the late sixties actually I turned experience in civil unrest

  • a.m. you US I in really the

  • precipitating incident was probably the watts riots 1965 in LA

  • I the headed the the in San

  • inspector at the LAPD I'm about to become is cheap daryl gates

  • I was in charge I'll LAPD's reaction to the rights and

  • he was alarms that I

  • because the department do we have an act that way of responding

  • axes kind so the emergency situation to read lives in the

  • risk I and active shooter is a riot

  • I'll hostage takings no emergency type situation

  • I came up with this idea I

  • to turn the military I military hat the no special forces I

  • schemes that I could respond quickly

  • %ah who are no be highly-trained specialized I

  • anchored years you would use overwhelming force too quickly

  • I defuse a violent situation on so we

  • put together this what this team any color they are

  • Joaquin and he I initially babe responsibility was interesting man

  • actually

  • I did not it's a great partner did not like the idea is that it tried to close

  • to art greeting the line between

  • I the tactical police and the military that week to decide

  • respect than the last I hear whether legal news he took over the gate

  • got the green light to go ahead with this idea after a couple

  • high-profile raid on one on the black panthers one on the

  • and the Liberation Army ever nationally televised

  • and I really can't have propelled this idea joaquim into the

  • popular culture and by the nineteen seventies pretty much every large city

  • in the country

  • I had one we the thing about

  • the seventies knowing that the early the first decade or so

  • what is that they were they were always reserved for the and emergency

  • situations where you're

  • you're using by one to defuse an alright already violent situation and your

  • saving lives better are your risk hospital in the nineteen eighties that

  • we started the

  • biking a converge with the drug war

  • and we started the a massive massive increase and E

  • uses why %uh mostly to serve warrant

  • on people suspected drug crime and

  • no hear you're using violence are you actually creating beilin

  • but there was none before you're not using violence to

  • you know de-escalate something you know and already violent situation

  • I and your YouTube what actually is an investigative tool

  • I'll know we force walking for use with people who know when the processor

  • committing crimes so there's no question about that ill

  • I but by in the 80's 90's &

  • not until today what is overwhelmingly used against people who

  • you're not only a haven't been convicted of any crime

  • I but has have you been charged and the police are still in the

  • evidence-gathering stated their investigation

  • and that's really where nope and most the

  • a my criticism in the book comes I it's not

  • an anti squat worker and by copyright even at look at the policies that really

  • a behind this shift from using

  • what emerges education use in a more proactively and and then

  • as an investigative cool in it seems to me to do that

  • the the Serta the the culture around

  • swat if if you if you can call it that

  • his sort have bled into the the police department I mean I remember in the

  • early eighties

  • I N in in my hometown Massachusetts

  • having some SWAT guy come to our classroom or something

  • and the a the the IDS what was just very it seem compartmentalized that it was a

  • very specific group of police

  • I who on the force who had access to the year

  • and had access to the training and it seems on some level that that that serve

  • comparte

  • the I don't wanna collar firewall but it

  • whatever it was it seems like that wall has sort of

  • maybe in some respects just disappeared totally

  • yeah and I think that's a larger story here that this culture of

  • I'll militarization as let out be on the swat teams

  • I and it really affected I a lot of police departments across the country

  • are more and more widespread way in I mean

  • you know it isn't just the paramilitary tactics but it's also a mindset

  • I'm along with the explosions a

  • the number use a SWAT teams we seen I

  • you know politicians that constantly told police officers at the fight more

  • surprising was on drugs and crime

  • on terrorism I and you know please allow to respond to switch from the

  • traditional police blues

  • what they call BTU's are battle dress uniforms

  • this know they've they've adopted more military look

  • I and yes you can see this in you know the

  • the the way that police officers approached their jobs I

  • if you take a copy for a min you know soldiers clothing and give them

  • soldiers weapons and in a minute soldiers tactic for men

  • and about on the street and tom is fighting a war

  • that's going to have I you know an impact on the way he approaches

  • jobs in the way because the job really interact with the community that he

  • serves

  • to tell us a little bit about what that impact is

  • when the the rubber meets the road because I i think that

  • I think that dynamic I love you know you start dressing someone like a

  • a member the paramilitary organization they're gonna start to feel like they're

  • a member of the paramilitary organization mean what are the

  • implications are that

  • in terms of policing get what I mean in addition to just that you know the

  • explosion in the number swat teams but I i think you know he's getting a lot of

  • I if you get a police discussion board online you know

  • to see a lot of fun iterations that the phrase

  • a base with Becca I'll do whatever have to do to get home safely at night

  • I any luck that is a a battlefield

  • mentality right I'm gonna do whatever I have to do to get home safe

  • I that is not not a far cry from protected protect and serve or

  • keep the peace I'm there is a

  • the police officers are are told every day that their job is

  • I you know extremely dangerous and and getting more dangerous impact

  • I noted certainly important research job in mind the journalist but

  • did the job does not mean not that usually not in the top 15 or 20 most

  • dangerous jobs in the country

  • I in a vacuum it a cup car accident I

  • the odds are they results are being killed murdered on the job about the

  • same as

  • I being murdered by living and most large cities in the US

  • I'll so you know this isn't the no

  • I I diminish the fact that some police officers accident on the job

  • the problem with this is that your the job last year also been a pressure that

  • I'll acid say your with officers substance or 1960

  • I into the comment is it up with others every day that

  • I you know their job is extremely dangerous in every interaction with the

  • president could be their last

  • I you encourage them to start seeing citizen

  • as blacks and every citizen as a potential threat and person who

  • you know mate people the one who prevent them from going home at night

  • and that really fosters a a are

  • you know an antagonistic relationship again between cops in

  • in the community I'm you see this with

  • other stop snitching movement that kinda bubbled up in a number city

  • and you know what do you think that movement and I understand people who

  • find it

  • you know repugnant the idea that people will cooperate with police even

  • in a murder investigation for example com you don't understand

  • gonna behind it and it's pretty remarkable that there are entire

  • no communities in this country where a residential community

  • I your could be more than they fear the people the police are supposed to be

  • protecting them from

  • and I think we need to look at you know why that is the know you can blame it on

  • the pop culture if you want but

  • I not think there is something more and a fundamentalist a connection that is it

  • goes back to

  • again this shit and releasing them be seen in the last generation or so

  • so was it i mean i i know that

  • you really focus on on the drug war

  • as being sort of the the catalyst or I should say the

  • maybe the fuel that the that was added to the sort of a fire that had bedded

  • begun in terms of creating swat teams

  • I just outlined for us sort of how that other drug war evolved in

  • what up what laws that came in

  • that sorta followed I guess on a parallel track or maybe

  • I am a one that should have drove

  • this the this change in police culture

  • yet you know the good word

  • again in the next administration and when he declared war on drugs

  • I'll by you know the address what but what phenomenon was basically

  • trip being born same time but is it a bit easier to transfer repair love one

  • another throughout the nineteen

  • seventy I nixon you know did have out is like no not grade

  • I but it was applied to you

  • I corner out across basic up to our

  • you know I in street clothes or and no contorted

  • uniform is once wattenberg in the israeli early on

  • it was really going the reagan administration every the be used for

  • our team for drug raid take often other couple reasons for that one is

  • a Iranian really kinda blurred the line between police and military

  • know by the National Guard to start writing the drug war at one point even

  • tried to bring active-duty troops and start conducting searches and making

  • arrests

  • I'm I will one few bad idea accident at didn't

  • become policy I do in nineteen eighties but know he created these joint we

  • joint task force's that I encourage cooperation between the military and

  • police

  • in domestically of the drug interdiction efforts I

  • and then certainly make I military equipment available we

  • apartment across the country and the you know this is a policy that continued

  • ever since then

  • what we've seen is literally millions of people

  • agreement that was designed for use on a battlefield I

  • has been given to you domestic release for use on American streets and

  • American neighborhoods and against American citizen you were talking paying

  • and our personnel carriers and helicopters & Gun

  • bayonet I and you know this is I

  • this has been going on for you know 30 five years now there's never really been

  • any

  • no public debate over public discussion about whether it's appropriate

  • are building the that reagan began has continued ever sent to be created the

  • inside federal anti-drug grant and you know we have a history in this country

  • of

  • a determining criminal justice law enforcement power

  • Libya the local official side they now decide what laws are

  • could be a priority in I didn't know enforce laws in a way to reflect

  • community standards and

  • community values and any expectation and I

  • really be unacceptable we saw during reagan & again a container centers

  • are more heavily federal influence on

  • in I in local policing and pick the weather gonna sit through this grant

  • I'm and even tho governments are taking you free money available to police

  • department

  • Arbor catches you know our are rules are

  • a requirement that you nor is get this money your record and more drug police

  • they were

  • or the score these grants are only going to go a

  • toward drug policing ok you it makes every drug rafter complicated how much

  • a I minimal corneal ulcer drugs in order to get these grand

  • now no drug we can become a much higher priority so you got other

  • year that you got for free I this artist walking

  • million people lucky man reserved for in wafer wanna be

  • emergency type situation but you know that at quite interpreted for

  • I or you could certainly use walking out on drug raids now

  • and there's all this money that comes with that and and I just watching Black

  • Star generate revenue for the police department

  • up to what a difficult decision after logically second the

  • missus really happy she's walking object to be routinely use

  • I to serve drug weren't our search warrants in drug cases

  • talk to talk about how I these

  • these drug cases can actually generate revenue for a police department

  • we gonna get the federal grants that I

  • mention that but only got a good goalie at the represents walking out to

  • arrest murder a suspected murder others no federal money that comes with that

  • is an obstacle the to gray you know a couple people suspected of dealing or

  • I you know smoking pot a enter make the arrest

  • obvious federal money that that is attached to that cabinet also asset

  • forfeiture

  • I which is the out the civil at for Twitter which says that

  • know if you rate a place and you can make even a loose connection between any

  • kasher

  • no car how and any kind of drug activity

  • the police and then feat that property I

  • and it's up to the properties all turn out to crew

  • that they are on the property legitimately and basically a prove a

  • negative

  • I and you know you but but property owner actually never even need to be

  • charged with a crime

  • and the police are able to the owner can't prove

  • they are legitimately and everything about something you all did

  • your at the PRU you bought them a Roman legitimately are difficult that would be

  • I the push for me to keep it and ready to go back to the park

  • and this is almost always tried to Truckee there are some

  • other crime but property comes with a smoke the drug cases

  • again there's another incentive you know and a SWAT team out

  • on these programs in how much also

  • I am did the did sort of the

  • a war on terror add to this because it seems to me that there was just

  • a tremendous amount of money that was earmarked

  • for a for homeland security

  • as it were which a he again it's one of those situations where

  • win what's interesting is that

  • mean is this money a necessarily earmarked

  • to the to buy equipment

  • or is it is it up to the discretion of police departments as to whether or not

  • they can simply add a couple love

  • I love police officers I mean I know that I

  • Indu give clinton some praise in the book for I

  • the community pre policing programs adnan

  • and and rightfully criticism for for other

  • aspects that I he expanded under under under his presidency but

  • how much discretion particularly when it comes all this terrorism funds

  • is there for the police department's to say hire another cop as opposed to

  • getting a an armored personnel carrier

  • what we're talking about a couple them programs here

  • and the community policing program that started during economist racin

  • I'm you're crazy in print the program the book but actually it's a fact was

  • was fairly pernicious I and

  • you touched on the problem which is that there's no oversight with these grant

  • how the gift ban want to check leave other federal government

  • I is up to the individual Chris Carman and so

  • look at community policing is this idea to capture the space in our communities

  • and guess what

  • beacon I and you know that

  • be apart the communities that they serve and creditors know kinda

  • occupying force basically and it's a good time and place a

  • a more effective I better approach to policing

  • the problem is again a there was no oversight

  • and so a couple other investigations actually found that

  • from Greece a computer taking the money for community policing and you think

  • that sucks watching

  • I would just for be peri-operative community policing

  • I in fact I a criminologist up to cracka

  • the criminologist at the Eastern Kentucky University the conservative

  • Police Department connector tunnel at least I

  • sheriffs and police chiefs actually considered swat teams and more active

  • what seems a part of the community policing strategy I which is not at all

  • the intent

  • the gramm or no the Quinn administration on the started it

  • because the other problems with the oversight I

  • you talk about the attack Sarah grant and because what we see after September

  • 11 PC the departmental

  • Department of Homeland Security start contact enemies checks out to police

  • departments across the country

  • art by military year again you know somebody's some

  • the grants are a some of them are

  • earmarked specifically I for people to hire more cops 30

  • its report security I but what we are seeing is a lot of these grants are

  • going specifically could buy

  • military-type here I armored personnel carriers for example or

  • no out I more powerful weapons and guns and weapons

  • prickly agencies and you're probably regret if you go back to the pentagon

  • program can get away

  • that well equipment that already existed you know

  • sitting in a warehouse where I'm thx grant for going to buy

  • new equipment between I they've given rise to a cottage industry now

  • that has sprung up artist for basically just

  • to cash the CHS grand I and produce

  • this new battle great equipment on C you got this industry now that is wholly

  • reliant

  • on the Graham and you know NL

  • inevitably how they're gonna spoken a lobbying office in DC Inc

  • lobby to make sure that these programs continue and expand

  • I and you know it's all gonna syrup heartbeat of itself

  • I and now you've created what you might call a cleese industrial complex little

  • little brother the military about doctor complex kinda in the murder

  • that scary thing about that is you know once that are in place in the end up in

  • rolling it can be really difficult to

  • I trolling it is back it so well

  • i mean i i don't wanna jump to head cuz I wanna talk about what the implications

  • are for this I mean

  • immunity you know and i know i don't want to say that

  • well I mean the question here is is then

  • could this this move in with him what is problematic

  • about the the sort of the police setting themselves up

  • in a a much more adversarial role

  • but to the community then they should and I think we can see that

  • I mean it seems to me that we can see that manifested in a couple areas a

  • minute

  • you know you know a program like stop and frisk at least how it's been

  • a implemented in New York would you see that as something that has emanated

  • out I love the the culture that has

  • grown up around I A

  • that is an offshoot of this culture that has grown up around policing

  • sure yeah and you know I me know

  • par problem there too did you have these police officers who are from outside the

  • community coming

  • into these communities usually no you need the color I

  • and know basically harassing people nurses in an article today about a guy

  • who had been stopping

  • stop on first over 50 time I and

  • never action and charged with a crime can't you just

  • look suspicious I so yeah I mean I think that is part of the other going to stop

  • the presses also it

  • at heart but gun control program I

  • so it the it it players I think to

  • progressive misguided progressive ideas on

  • on law and order as well as conservative ideas law-and-order I

  • and I definitely think that that that that are evident you know it it creates

  • a very

  • antagonistic relationship between police incident and

  • I mean you know it's very hard to stop and frisk is this idea that you know

  • everybody is a potential threat anybody to be carrying a gun there for the

  • police should be stopping in

  • searching anyone looks the least bit suspicious that

  • I you know New Yorker your Bloomberg and Kelly would argue that

  • maybe York safe a I don't know you know crime has dropped

  • across the country over the same period including that he's been

  • didn't you stop and frisk so on the idea that that's behind in their crime drop I

  • think

  • you know I'm quite look it up a lot of other other evidence

  • how much you see I mean we we also have been particularly

  • in New York put a but I imagine is well across the country

  • a convergence a love a.m.

  • have sort of the the the national security state in terms of spying

  • particularly at the New Yorker Police Department working hand in hand with the

  • have enough I could call this guy CIA liaison he was sort of

  • polling to two paychecks as simultaneously

  • but we know the stories I love the New York Police Department spying on

  • a Muslim students throughout the Northeast and the

  • in beyond I'm where you fit that in

  • to the your your your thesis year

  • one man you know the government does have a a

  • national security is a legitimate function on the government

  • operate ethically neatly very careful love what's going on here i mean

  • no telling that right at remember right after the September 11 attacks

  • are the following: February during the Super Bowl %uh the White House

  • a the opposite National Drug Control Policy

  • air this commercial the basic that big attempted hi

  • casual drug use I do I terrorism

  • I and this was a very I you know

  • me in the the completely intentional I and

  • know if you can the government right off the bat was trying to type the drug war

  • to

  • the war on terror across because terrorism a good thing the people most

  • creative at the time

  • i'ma three senior kinda complacent the two issues

  • a now ever since their BBC in washington Post book on long series on a kind as to

  • on you how r are are anti drug interdiction efforts in Afghanistan are

  • a army in the war on terror victims were worsening

  • soldiers out there to burn I opium fields while

  • you know farmers watches to US troops that their

  • livelihood aflame I in it you know hurting our

  • relations over there concerning our ability is actually fine terrorist

  • I'm see the know all across public policy

  • I'm the I'll the well I just because an essay stuff coming to pick up Elise

  • yeah we found that we learn that the DEA I was trying to get its hands on all

  • this and that they did and ordered lunch truck investigations

  • got to be very careful about the company in a few that and I'm

  • I have water problems with the the the NYPD spying programs and the

  • CIA inculcation all that but I

  • you know you have to do you support that as a and legitimate function government

  • I it very very quickly become bleed over into a more routine

  • orkut law enforcement I so did I think

  • initially wary about what's going on but don't they could also

  • we should I understand that once government that the circle powers

  • even if it in the context of limiting its national security

  • it isn't long before find other expenses as well

  • and in one of those examples I think I've that that lead to is

  • the the the response to

  • the Occupy movements at least in in in New York and certainly other cities

  • across the country

  • you've got I am met a

  • just should have E the the I mean I think people can remember this site

  • a love sort of these robocop a

  • cops a you know storming eighty a public park

  • as it were I am in and I imagine that's also

  • a part of what is problematic is that again

  • there if this is bleeding over right i mean it's a mission creep in some

  • respects

  • yeah in this is another a separate narrative that go through the book is

  • buttressed by the way

  • government response protest and goes back to the Occupy other side and back

  • by the TTL protest

  • Seattle in 1999 in the way the city responded to those protests

  • which was know the city basically came out expecting

  • computation you know the cops came out in their I

  • problem copper dark better care however you wanna call whatever you want to call

  • it

  • %ah and I interviewed the chief a a police in Seattle a kind on Stamper in

  • the book

  • I and you know he got know it was better to be over-prepared and prepare for

  • computation band

  • to regret not being prepared I into something is right but

  • you know a there's a better way to handle that and I

  • also interviewed Jerry Wilson which she can be seen early seventies

  • intern occurred a lot of civil unrest country between DC

  • and did a very different approach a will that you know he was always quick

  • is uniformed cops on the front line the guys in a traditional college Blues in

  • fact he would come back a lot on frontline

  • I and knows that you have the right school had ready and

  • yet to be repaired he said he would put them on buses and pokémon on side

  • streets

  • I his approach weather is lot he was again if you go into a protest expecting

  • computation

  • that's what you're going to get i'm ok we show up

  • dressed like at I both they and the protesters are starting from a point

  • a you know something bad is about to happen

  • I and distemper to his credit today

  • as his response to those protests data was the biggest mistake of his career

  • I could he said he see now that has become the template but that's how

  • every city not respond the protest I

  • he after that a broken heart that he was know he himself was responsible for that

  • I and knowing the the inherent irony here is

  • that I you know the the more important the event

  • I you know the more influential be I decision-makers more consequential

  • decisions they're going to be making

  • I the more likely it is that the protesters are going to be

  • put as far away from you and as possible and that

  • in a lot pretty much the opposite of what the person I'm a supposed to be all

  • about you know it's got to be about

  • I being able to be heard and being able to I have your complaint

  • I you know heard by the people who are making the decision

  • we can do it you know this way we respond process

  • is seems to be incorrect contravention a no evidence person and because

  • be about wilson's an interesting character because he also

  • I he also resisted the the the know knock

  • I am

  • from raids as well right i mean pride heey

  • not E go ahead but yes although the party that nixon this is one nixon

  • through our pet policies that he pushed through a

  • in 1970 and know this team the interesting thing about tonight great is

  • that it wasn't something that police chiefs were clamoring for more than a

  • criminologist were saying we should have I did this with the idea of a

  • 28-year-old

  • Senate staffer I who was looking for issues that nixon could use

  • in the sixty eight campaign to basically exploit

  • suburban wat fears about black

  • urban crock I so they came up with this idea

  • well you know we should captured should be able to

  • no breakdown people's doors without knocking when occur suspected drug crime

  • them we made it tough on them in and the nixon persist through and

  • they were to build one apply to federal narcotics officers across the country

  • the other applied I just DC congress has jurisdiction over around

  • Washington DC just the drug police in DC and Wilson

  • a didn't want it he said you know we don't need this week I

  • its intrusive it it violates no civil rights

  • a civil liberties and it's just not necessary

  • you know we can drug policing without are

  • you know people toward middle the night I'm interesting thing is that

  • I you know a lot of other states have no not bill

  • similar to the nixon bill and across the federal agents were using it left and

  • right across the country

  • %uh in DC refuse and and crime actually went down

  • in the sea I while mexico's president while another

  • and the rest of the country now you know I don't I don't think I

  • Jerry Martin's refusal to use no not great is the reason why crime in

  • downtown DC

  • operate I think it the more broadly his approach to policing which is more

  • community

  • oriented approach where he had copped out walking be

  • he the stroke to recruit police officers from within the city

  • for that you know that work people who were part of the community they were

  • policing grew up in those communities

  • I really seem to you know to have an effect the other extreme thing about the

  • no not

  • bills is that the federal bill happened as I said

  • your federal narcotics officers were written down doors left and right after

  • school

  • ask I but there are a few cases where they got the wrong house I

  • became national news and the New York Times investigation AP did investigation

  • and they found actually dozens and dozens of these instances where

  • we federal narc had knock down the wrong door

  • great how about a warrant your terrorize people there are

  • a few deft I and really a fascinating thing happened

  • to the congress held hearings may brought in the victim to these rates

  • have to cry and actually repeal both laws

  • at night it happen other law the federal government liable for any

  • botched you know raid on the run how I

  • and know their it was the time show that no your gonna

  • I did nixon drug war in and all it is

  • I country humanizing year drug offenders that congress will still capable

  • shame and about not being able to reflecting decide that maybe

  • this particular party has gone too far I'm

  • not great within and then comes back in the nineteen eighties

  • with a vengeance and we are we seeing hundreds and hundreds of these

  • no not rate on our house and innocent people getting killed and

  • in congress hasn't given it a second thought and know that

  • a little blip in it reelected really surprised when I

  • found in my research I had no idea that happened yeah I mean is this

  • meet ultimately is this story because we also have I think over that time

  • as well over the past 30 years the Supreme Court

  • sort of loosening the restrictions on

  • I am on the the requirements for

  • flipper for texting civil liberties particularly in terms of

  • well in addition I wish to say in terms OVA of police work

  • I mean so from do we have you know these I think there is a natural tendency i

  • mean

  • going back I in another life

  • I was in a situation where I played a cop

  • on the streets of New York and I was wearing the uniform for a week on the

  • streets of New York City

  • I basically without much oversight

  • it and I'll tell you when I

  • it it certainly dramatically changed my attitude I was I found myself my

  • jaywalking in stopping our cars in Kalin

  • bike messengers to get off the street i mean I can only imagine

  • when you I have that IMEI I think back to that time and how

  • how radically it changed my perspective on

  • I'm just what was happening around me and interviews that I did with police

  • officers in the run-up to the

  • RNC in 2004 in New York City and they were being told that this was gonna be

  • like Seattle Times 10

  • and they were gonna be a anarchists in here with and

  • is a and they were really should have

  • worked up into a fervor above like this is gonna be a Warn we've got to get into

  • these trenches

  • so on one hand we have I think a culture that

  • is susceptible to this type of thing

  • I we've had programs that have sort of played into their culture but you've

  • cited examples of times where

  • I we seen federal government pulled back on that

  • d what what is the solution here to this I mean how do we redirect

  • I am police departments around the country

  • from being certif ok cause I military

  • or outfits to going back to

  • a a a a more integrated sensor up their role

  • in the community

  • well I that's the million-dollar question I guess um

  • you know I think there are number a

  • a specific policies that we could repeal that would help and

  • one is you know these giveaway that military equipment

  • checks to buy more military equipment the incentives to federal grants because

  • strictly toward drug policing I and your let's

  • go back to leading crime be crime policy be

  • decided on a more local level about all these Inc onto an intranet

  • I'll you know I think what you find is that lease with the devote a lot more

  • time to solving crimes with

  • you know actual victim band concert no crimes were

  • every whatever all the parties concerned like a drug crime for example

  • I'm let me but let me ask a lot in terms of like the locality I mean you've you

  • know

  • we have we it seems to me that we have

  • I am localities that could go one way or another I mean

  • you cite Wilson in his policing

  • as being radically different than a guy like gates let's say

  • some yeah is it it came what could we also just say

  • you know one instead of giving you these funds for are buying new gear

  • we're gonna give you these funds to adding I am cops to your force

  • and so you can feel the security of having numbers on some level doesn't

  • actually have to be in terms of firepower

  • yeah I i mean i think the problem about with with the federal grant so the money

  • is fungible

  • and now you can get the car a low-carbon money to hire more cops and then they

  • can

  • you know they can take whatever money they were going to use our cops

  • I and move that to yeah more

  • aggressive policing I you know I

  • I do see your point about at night ahead you know I don't think we can

  • completely leave out the up to local level I think no I i

  • between a very robust I civil rights division within the party the justice

  • and I think

  • I think I think local police initially should be able to dictate no

  • while economic priority and you know what strategy policing strategies are

  • going to use

  • I that said yeah that's practical civil rights Liberty

  • I think now I think the problem just let me to do that Obama's been a little

  • better than bush America like

  • stop it could be a lot better and I think that should be

  • Leslie priority just bomb making sure that Police Department and

  • actually and prosecutors that matter are protecting

  • are observing how people civil rights and civil liberties and

  • and not abusing them I'm when I mean that

  • in terms of a specific a policies or you can just

  • kinda attitude changes I

  • in general the between a yes please you need to be more precise

  • and know kinda a kicking ass and taking names asks him to be de-emphasized

  • I'll get on the book review: look at police recruiting video

  • video that conducted high schools and colleges the to get new cops

  • I you know the images aren't typically cops you know we're telling our

  • helicopters and tackling people and kicking down doors and shooting at

  • people

  • and you know that's the very first step in the process your I mean this is

  • I you are appealing to people who look at those images and think that's what I

  • want to do every day

  • I course know that not want cock should be doing everyday

  • I you know that that the after completing a much more

  • a that we won every size are much more mundane and secure

  • you go back to because I school be back between with a high school with who

  • you know what find a job involving those activities appealing

  • I you know most accurate decided that one of the last people you want to

  • become a police officer

  • %uh no real idea for putting up w talk about the

  • the power you felt when you're a cop I in New York

  • I mean I was actually not good at playing a cop but the hague

  • away when you're playing a character whiny at the venom a more powerful

  • testament to that mean

  • if you look at the Stanford Prison Experiment example where

  • pingback: seventies the professor

  • no got a random group didn't fun one to be

  • prison guard military prisoners in ended up having the

  • spending experiment after just a few days because the guard started using the

  • prisoners

  • actually he played the role the warden me down even himself

  • you know taking a very antagonistic you toward the prisoners new for

  • completely randomly assigned role argue that the program experience

  • experiments where is on fears rested minister-elect

  • electric shocks the people are and no they weren't

  • actually shocked that they were actors on the other and were no

  • screaming in agony I am taiwan tears were told to keep giving the shock may

  • continue to give them

  • I mean this you know these companies should be taught a police academy

  • clinically

  • result does need to be aware a what that kinda power

  • in duty or psychology and and the way that you view other people

  • I and I think too often we you know we emphasize

  • the quite that lease office space we emphasize they are

  • I you know the dangers of the job but we don't I

  • we don't teach enough two police officers about what that kinda our can

  • do to you

  • emotionally and it's your psychology I let me know appears to be taught at

  • least on me that I could it be

  • you know retired I often I

  • I because few months ago and 12 the guy who teaches

  • a use-of-force classes the police

  • agencies across the country and he said what denise brown and

  • class 10 to 15 years that I was really disturbing that

  • I lotteries courses not what it is but that he's observer

  • they don't talk so much I there's very little and this isn't the escalation now

  • as a Realtor on you know how to talk your way out our talk somebody down

  • because know a lot of these classes now focus on how to

  • justify whatever force you after you've used it

  • %uh basically how to write a police report that no exonerate you for

  • whatever course you just you

  • I left really kinda telling I mean that that that we've gone

  • know that even the training has gone away from

  • preventing police file and to

  • finding ways to justify it after the fact I into this is Alton

  • larger cultural stuff that I think be chained and that's a very

  • difficult thing to do but natty again it starts with policy and it starts with

  • a no electing public officials who

  • understand these things and that you know we're going to

  • implement policies that not emphasize the right aspect for police work

  • the in the end in this maybe I mean I think you know this may be where

  • you serve the the ideological perspectives on which we we approach

  • this

  • serve diverge on some level because you know

  • a.m. I mean I it seems to me

  • counting on police departments around the

  • the country on their own are with the hopes that in each of those police

  • departments that we find in each locality

  • are going to have this level love

  • I love me maybe it's too the grandioso worded saying enlightenment

  • seems to me far more far-fetched

  • then simply saying on a a federal level

  • if we can incentivize people to buy more gear by giving them money

  • and setting up a system with incentives to do this I mean you say that

  • you know that the that federal funding is fungible but that means that that

  • on the local level they're making the decision to

  • to make it that fungible it seems to me there's gotta be

  • aid mechanism coming out of congress

  • and a where we can have a ATA

  • a focal point of saying any broader sense that culturally speaking

  • we won a different culture of police work in this country

  • and then incentivizing in providing the funds

  • to a to gear training towards that to gear to a hiring in expenditures on a

  • local level

  • in that manner I mean obviously the you not gonna have the feds run every police

  • department but

  • if if the federal government can incentivize

  • the through the drug war in through anti-terrorism policies

  • too much sir dove buffing up love these police departments it seems they could

  • also do the reverse yeah

  • well in theory they could but I i mean if you look at

  • a I mean who in congress is going to stand up and say we should give our

  • police department less money

  • to fight the war on terror or to fight the war on drugs i mean

  • no i i put on the book that not at the federal level

  • and it's been a bipartisan rush to insanity and both parties are

  • are guilty of trying to outdo one another I can't say whether is

  • actually some concern in action going on politically it at the state level

  • pml-n just for state and country to pass case what transparency build

  • if we make call the police to least agencies I have a SWAT team stayed

  • issue these reports were very detailed reports on how often they use this

  • watching what purpose and

  • whether shots were fired in so for them we're seeing

  • others a bill Michigan Legislature the campaign after the film

  • a under are a couple artist the new to other going against a bill that will go

  • in part an actual

  • attempt to put the restrictions on the use of the SWAT teams

  • I'm so I mean I think you know that at the more I read the more local level

  • people are more

  • politicians are more accountable to I'll you how people

  • steel about their police departments think it you know when you book your

  • Congressman your voting for

  • I you don't they keep I think most of us know farrakhan ballpark

  • member congress thinking that that's going to affect how are police

  • our local police officers be okay for actual

  • how to prioritize lot I think it's usually

  • be we consider that a much more local issue certainly congress

  • clinton did pretty well I really mean from a political standpoint

  • run for president on their community policing whether or not it actually

  • I was executed in the way that it was sold to us but I mean from a political

  • standpoint

  • I mean I agree obviously a you know one doesn't necessarily have to operate to

  • the exclusion

  • I love above the other in you know in but think about anything but the

  • community policing thing was not

  • mean the reason why I was popular with

  • even you know very far left progressive politicians is not

  • because it was me including my getting it an anecdote that illustrate this

  • point I

  • I actually a I just taken the form on capitol hill that was

  • sponsored by a congressman Bobby Scott shortly after that democrats

  • to cover congress in as sometime in mid-2010 from the exact year

  • but forgive my you must feel on please militarization and

  • I you at the time the bush administration was actually trying to

  • phase out the COPS program

  • I'm not you know because they're cared about militarization but just you know

  • they were

  • they were trying to say that a lot of programs I and

  • you know I testified about you know to the so I talked about the

  • militarization problem during the Q&A I someone asked about the COPS program and

  • I think we should

  • no refund it because communicating with a great idea

  • I and no I said you're right it is a great idea but I pointed out that

  • because there were no restrictions on how these cops grants for use

  • but me out the agencies across the country were using starts walking

  • congressman Scott chairman of the crime subcommittee said

  • are you telling me that our community policing Grantsburg are being used to

  • start walking

  • and I said yesterday said the concert not well-intended all we all had a good

  • laugh about how ridiculous that was

  • I'm yeah six months later as Scott

  • presents his budget proposal to the leadership which makes it into the base

  • with the house democrats budget

  • I and a brief under the COPS program

  • at 100 percent level that it was during the Clinton administration with no

  • restrictions on how to grant could be used by local police department

  • so you know it's not as if they didn't know I but you know when it comes right

  • down to it

  • I Republican or Democrat every politician bikes because out that press

  • release saying you know I just secured five hundred thousand dollars in federal

  • money

  • heart our local euros in goodwill I and

  • if you're the one who stands up and says you know

  • I a week but I refuse to result but there's no way I'm going to let them

  • spend it on a SWAT team or I'm not gonna let them

  • use it to buy I'm more high-powered weapons know congressman do that

  • love the be adulation a yes from

  • securing the granted nobody wants to look I mean republicans wanna be law and

  • order party

  • now the democrats are I you know due to the police union

  • so there's really no political sign up for either

  • other to party at a national level the noted click

  • implementing these reforms are to talk about out they couldn't make onto or

  • I just lastly when you see the announcement by

  • a holder yesterday regarding mandatory

  • the minimum sentencing for for nonviolent drug users I mean

  • in granted we're not talking about a huge cohort of people

  • the most I think the the vast majority of people who go to jail

  • under these offenses are are I'd

  • doing so under and state lies opposed federal but

  • is this the type to think that we need to see happen in terms of changing the

  • culture

  • that so that maybe we get to the point where a politician see some value in

  • saying

  • we're sending this money a back to the district but we're also gonna make sure

  • its restricted

  • in in how it can be used

  • what I think so to accept that we are going to get these grants

  • then yes we need to put restrictions on other years and

  • at speculation still mean want to talk about the book is

  • you can't really talk about whether police shooting like

  • officer police officers firing the gun the people

  • have gone up or down because even other stuff federal requirement that every PC

  • that day there it's just not in force nobody nobody's made the effort to

  • actually enforce

  • the requirement I and you know everybody thinks in the country get federal money

  • in some way or another in there

  • there's no reason why we can't hey if you're gonna take this money you have to

  • be more accountable and transparent yep together

  • let us know how your swatching let us know how many times your

  • results fire their guns and no honey and bee document had

  • I'll you know that should be here yeah I agree and I think we probably disagree

  • on whether these

  • don't want to be going out at all because the PR yeah I think we should

  • attacks I restrictions on out to you to make sure that

  • unit to accept the weekend i used in the right way and that I'm

  • you know that that they begins going to keep apartment more transparent

  • accountability

  • accountable I'm not a good thing are you encouraged by

  • I am by holder's announcement I mean at least in terms of love

  • if not for its immediate practical facts but at least in terms of maybe

  • this assertive 30 some-odd forty-some odd year now

  • I am a drug war is adding to see some

  • disintegration I think I'm more encouraged by the symbolism than the

  • practical effect I mean you know the idea that but the Attorney General can

  • get up and pray

  • other than the older said this week I is encouraging

  • undersecretaries I've talk to say that there's not going to be a

  • the actual practical effect in terms of you're using the

  • the a population incarcerated people or

  • you really reducing the way mandatory minimums are used are changing as to

  • where the years but

  • just to the extent that can happen other that turns out to get up and say that no

  • other immediate

  • no political backlash I is encouraging and also listen i

  • even on the right you're seeing a lot of movement toward

  • your reform in recognizing the problems that mass incarceration

  • I a group like right on crime which I you know a lot of

  • through marquee conservative names are finally starting to say

  • a no better we've gone too far underwritten personally think I'll

  • me think that discussion is right person change unfortunately

  • most the people who are making noises at places like that

  • how to block this where they can do so you know what

  • I and political without will to political statement but I think you know

  • there's a lesson

  • about your listeners who are concerned about the stuff

  • I would say that that that there has to be I mean politicians are not going to

  • I most part voluntarily come out for reform in say that

  • no our police have too much power I

  • they're only gonna start to to now moves to these changes

  • yes it becomes a political liability for them

  • not to %uh say that you know you know political

  • content all no correctly on marijuana a

  • you know healthy majority country now supports legalizing marijuana not

  • such as medically but outward I by know congress I think it's like

  • I 45 percent I not because there's

  • you know they're still the sense that there's a lot of political risk in

  • coming out

  • to legalize I and there's they don't really see any liability

  • just keeping quiet about it some people until people start

  • you know voting on these issues and you know writing

  • your congressman saying you know why you

  • you should be using no war terms they're talking about leaving our community

  • until this they feel like there's actual supply ability: to them

  • I propping up the status quo in in keeping the way they've been going

  • I think it can be difficult to persuade any politicians to change them

  • are these are known for their a

  • courage political courage for the most part right now I think it's rare but

  • sadly it's a it's only politicians they can really rain in

  • their police forces yeah that's where a word whether

  • response I mean that's what's going on with the changes in common and that's

  • what have we got here and I

  • I'm like the book The and it's not an anti couple to condemn

  • if anything it's an anti-politician book i mean they're really going to cut the

  • policies that got us here

  • radley Balko I the book is rising the warrior koppel put a link on now

  • majority .fm thanks so much for your time today

really offsets

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B1 中級 美國腔

"勇士警察 "的崛起(與Radley Balko一起) (Rise of the "Warrior Cop" (with Radley Balko))

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    黃柏堯 發佈於 2021 年 01 月 14 日
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