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  • >>Male 1: Ok, hi >>Male 2: --Hi

  • >>Male 1: This talk -- >>Male 2: -- is called

  • >>Male 1: --no you go first. [laughs]

  • [audience laughs]

  • >>Male 2:"How to Lose Friends and Alienate People", we're not gonna read slides to you.

  • That's not what we do. But yes, if you're here its hopefully because you want to hear

  • something about social aspects of software engineering, which is what we usually talk

  • about.

  • And before we move on, we should talk; we had a very confusing URL. We replaced it with

  • this wonderful "alienjoy" URL. You can go on, do backchannel talk, if you have questions

  • you can put them there, discuss, do whatever you wanna do. Let's, let's get started.

  • >>Fitz: Ok. We'll start off with, "Who are we?" My name is Brian Fitzpatrick and I go

  • by Fitz.

  • >>Ben: My name is Ben Collins-Sussman. I go by Ben Collins-Sussman.

  • >>Fitz: And we are former engineers and recovering managers and, or leaders, as you might say.

  • We haven't been doing this but for four or five years and so, maximum, I guess. So, we're

  • not experts in it. These are mostly; this is mostly entirely conformed of our opinions--

  • [Ben laughs]

  • and we're perfectly fine if you want to disagree with them. But, you're gonna have to get your

  • own talk somewhere else.

  • [Ben laughs]

  • [audience laughs]

  • If you really weren't sure that--

  • >>Ben: But, we've been working together for like, 12-13 years now; various Open Source

  • project. A t one point I worked for him, then we worked on subversion together and--

  • >>Fitz: --Sorry about that.

  • >>Ben: Yeah, you can throw tomatoes if you wish.

  • >>Fitz: We use Mecurial now, it's ok.

  • [Ben laughs]

  • >>Ben: And then, after doing Subversion, we went to Google at the same time and we started

  • the Chicago Engineering office and now we sort of have evolved into management.

  • Not necessarily intentionally, but it's been on our mind a lot. Like, alright, "How do

  • we become managers? Is that good or bad? Is that ok?" And we wanna talk about some of

  • the things that we've discovered, I guess, >>Fitz: --Sure.

  • >>Ben: -- in the process of becoming leaders.

  • >>Fitz: So, who are you? Can I get a quick show of hands? Who here manages people?

  • >>Ben: Ok, wow. Wow.

  • >>Fitz: Wow. This is gonna be like a support group, isn't it?

  • [Ben and audience laugh}

  • Fitz: Hello, my name is Fitz. Hi, Fitz.

  • [audience laughs]

  • How many people in here are, are tech leads, or technical leadership roles? All right.

  • How many people here thought this was a different talk? Alright, ha!

  • [audience laughs]

  • >>Fitz: So, so we're, we're gonna take a couple different angles with this, but first thing

  • we wanna do is sort of, if we wanna a-, attack this, if we wanna define what the problem

  • is. And, a-, as we see it, that oftentimes leadership isn't intentional. Some people

  • don't really wanna get into it, but no matter what happens, there's always gonna be someone,

  • sort of, leading the way.

  • >>Ben: Right. I mean, if you take a bunch of engineers and you put them on a project,

  • even if no one is assigned to be the leader what you will find is after awhile there's

  • some self-organization that happens, right? And somebody starts becoming the person with

  • the big picture; the person who becomes sort of the main point of contact, right?

  • It starts maybe inadvertently organizing people, dividing up tasks, right? I mean, even if

  • they don't have official authority, it, it, they sort of fall in to that role and people

  • give them that authority, right? Because it has to be done; it doesn't scale otherwise.

  • >>Fitz: But, they start resolving conflicts and, and driving things toward consensus.

  • But, the-, they step into the role of the big picture person because every project really

  • needs someone to do that.

  • >>Ben: Right. And I guess, I, I've, I've been thinking about this because I see it happens

  • to a lot of people. I know it happened to me when we were working on the Subversion

  • project for five years. It started out with just a few of us in a closet writing code

  • and by the end of it, it, I was an I-R-C all day long eff-, effectively managing Internet

  • volunteers who were working on the code.

  • I wasn't much code in myself anywhere; I was just organizing people and noted that, they're

  • not my reports, right? But, I was leading them anyway. And I, I call this the "accidental

  • manager"; I guess maybe that's the best way to put it. And is, has anyone had that experience

  • here? Like, become accidental managers? Yeah, right, I mean you're like, "How, how did I

  • get here? What happened?" And we're here to say it's not a big deal. It's not; it's not

  • the end of the world. It's actually ok.

  • >>Fitz: Right.

  • >>Ben: So--

  • >>Fitz: And so, but first we wanna talk semantics, ok? And I'm not talking about the Semantic

  • Web here, but, I have an issue with the word "manager", ok? And--

  • [Ben laughs]

  • do the Will Smith thing that's manager is wh-, is old and busted and "leader" is the

  • new hotness, ok?

  • [laughter]

  • So, old and busted; new hotness, right? Manager really is a four-letter word, ok?

  • >>Ben: Why is it a loaded term?

  • >>Fitz: Well, it, it, it evolved out of the Industrial Revolution, right? You didn't have

  • managers three-four hundred years ago, or project managers, or people looking to maximize

  • their resources.

  • [Ben laughs]

  • Management is, is, it came out about the Industrial Revolution, the assembly line, right? If,

  • if you're gonna have somebody in a line stuffing meat into a can, you need somebody--

  • >>Ben: Yum.

  • >>Fitz: to manage people stuffing meat into a can.

  • [audience laughs]

  • But this works. It's very effective, this sort of carrot and stick routine when you

  • have people doing something by rote, right?

  • >>Ben: Right. You want to maximize efficiency by waving carrots and sticks at them.

  • >>Fitz: And you want people to be compliant and listen, ok?

  • >>Ben: Yup, yup.

  • >>Fitz: So, this is, and al-, this is some of the stuff we're talking about here comes

  • a lot from Dan Pink. If you haven't seen his Tech talk we highly recommend it. We'll talk

  • a little bit more about that towards the end.

  • >>Ben: Great stuff.

  • >>Fitz: So, so this traditional management mechanism works really well when you're managing

  • people like this. Ok?

  • [laughter]

  • It's really great if you have nothing that requires any sort of thought, but it's a colossal

  • failure if you're managing something that is, is complex, or requires any sort of creativity.

  • >>Ben: Like software engineering.

  • >>Fitz: Like software engineering, exactly.

  • [Ben laughs]

  • And so, as a result, this creates conflict.

  • >>Ben: It's also a reason why, why managers are hated, right? I mean, there's this, i-,

  • in engineering, just the word manager. "Oh, do you have a manager?" It's like, it's almost

  • like the word itself implies conflict or attention, right? And so, I mean, there's a lot of reason

  • for that. We have, there's a reason Dilbert has this stereotype pointy hair. Actually--

  • >>Fitz: You could do that pretty easily.

  • >>Ben: I can almost; I can almost make my hair pointy if I pull it out, right? I mean,

  • th-, lets talk about that Dilbert manager stereotype, right? They have no technical

  • ability, they're insecure, they get no respect f-, because of that, from their reports. They

  • don't respect the reports back. They ignore any past accomplishments of their reports.

  • They're, they're hired like zookeepers, to sort of caged people, like you don't trust

  • them. And, yeah--

  • >>Fitz: But, and a lot of them are concerned with their own self promotion and, and survival

  • as opposed to removing obstacles for their team, which is really what a manager should

  • be doing. But, but for all these reasons this is why that most engineers don't wanna be

  • managers. I, I mean, I, I sort of became a manager. I mean, my thought of managers was

  • always management according to the Peter Principle, right?

  • [Ben laughs]

  • That's the principle that you always get promoted one level beyond your capabilities, ok?

  • >>Ben: Well, give me, give me an example of that because I discovered a lot of people

  • have never heard of Peter Principle. We're just old.

  • >>Fitz: Like, an example of that?

  • >>Ben: Well, I answer, I mean, I mean the classic example is you have a software engineer

  • who is an amazing programmer and they keep getting promoted because they're an amazing

  • programmer. But, then the way most businesses are set up, management is "higher" than software

  • engineering so you get to the top of the programming chain, and if you want to get promoted then

  • you have to become a manager, right? And suddenly, now you have the world's worst manager and

  • you've lost the world's best coder.

  • >>Fitz: Right.

  • >>Ben: And that's, that's the classic scenario--

  • >>Fitz: Double failure.

  • >>Ben: that you see happen over and over, right?

  • >>Fitz: But th-, but the general thing is most engineers don't consider management to

  • be real work. You feel less productive. When I first met-

  • [Ben laughs]

  • moved from engineer to tech lead and then eventually managing people, I felt like I

  • did nothing. I came home the other day and said "What did I do all day?" I'm like, "I

  • talked to people and I sent email." I'm a human router, right?

  • [Ben laughs]

  • It was just like, it's awful, I mean--

  • >>Ben: It's hard to measure. It's really hard to measure.

  • >>Fitz: --It, it, it's almost impossible to measure other than your general sense of malaise,

  • right?

  • >>Ben: Or perhaps, what I discovered is maybe it's something to can measure on a long-term

  • timescale, right? If you're an engineer, you can sit down at the end of the week. "Oh,

  • I wrote this much code and these features have solved 15 bugs", right? When you're a

  • manager, it's like, "Well, over the quarter, our team achieved this." And I think it's

  • partially my fault.

  • [laughter]

  • Right? So, so it's harder.

  • >>Fitz: But, well, let's talk about what, what an engineering leader is.

  • >>Ben: Right.

  • >>Fitz: Ok? When y-, and I wanna really switch more to the general leader thing. But, a,

  • a leader is not a General in this case. You're not talking about Patton. It's not somebody

  • who barks orders at people, it's not someone whose team is there to serve them; a real

  • leader is someone who is there to serve, right?

  • [Ben laughs]

  • It's someone who serves the team, ok? Y-, you're role as a leader is really, more than

  • anything else, to remove obstacles for your team. So, to grease the wheels, to give advice

  • and guidance when it's l-, asked for, to help people with their careers as well. It, but

  • it's, it's not about this just barking orders--

  • >>Ben: Right.

  • >>Fitz: there's gotta be an element of trust there.

  • >>Ben: Absolutely. And, and the other thing you need to think about, as a manager, is,

  • is y-, you're responsible for two things; both the technical and the social part of

  • the team, right? And what, a, a lot of places where I'll see an engineer promoted to management

  • accidentally, they're only still focused on the technical side and they ignore the social

  • issues. And they're actually important.

  • If you ignore the social problems, you will have morale problems, the team will fall apart,

  • you'll, you'll, people will be fight-, I mean, you don't think it's possible but then you

  • start managing people and you notice it happens. And a lot of people put blinders on, right?

  • Likewise, you don't want a manager who's purely social, either, right? A manager should have

  • some technical skill, should be able to engage the team, right? And--

  • >>Fitz: Understand what they're doing and--

  • >>Ben: Yep.

  • >>Fitz: and be smart enough to get, get their nose out of it, right?

  • >>Ben: So, you need a mix of both. You need, you need to really think about both things

  • all the time.

  • >>Fitz: Right. So, so to touch on the, on the group therapy aspect of this--

  • [Ben laughs]

  • leadership is not a waste of time. It's a very important role and it's a way of getting

  • more done than you can do by yourself. So, it's a way of scaling yourself, right?

  • >>Ben: I remember one of my, one of my first managers I asked, I said, he had just into

  • management, right? And I said, "You're not writing code anymore, how you feel about that?"

  • And he's like, "Well, I realize now by, by managing you guys, like, way, way more code

  • is being written than if I were just jumping in and, and coding with you."

  • >>Fitz: Yeah.

  • >>Ben: Like, that's the impact I have. So, you can actually, it's hard to quantify, but

  • it's real, right?

  • >>Fitz: Right. So, so that sets the stage when we talk about. And the best way, I think,

  • to sort of explain what we're talking about here is what makes a good leader. Again, according

  • to our opinions and we have very little experience here, so you shouldn't listen to us,

  • [Ben laughs]

  • is to talk about the negative side, right, the antipatterns.

  • >>Ben: We'll start with antipatterns.

  • >>Fitz: Ok, we'll start with antipatterns. Number one--

  • >>Ben: Hurray! Be everyone's friend. And this is tricky, right, especially if you manage

  • a friend--

  • >>Fitz: Especially if y-, you're in a team and you're suddenly managing the team or leading

  • the team.

  • >>Ben: --To suddenly switch from peer to manager. Sometimes it's a problem, sometimes it's not

  • but, it's actually possible to lead the team with a soft touch. Like, I always say the

  • best kind of leadership is leadership you can't really see if it's happening, but it's

  • not obvious, right? And that, that's fine.

  • I think that works and it's not about becoming everybody's best friend, but it's not about

  • being distant, either. One of the best pieces of advice I've heard is like, eat lunch with

  • you team, right? Don't, don't sit in your corner office with your door closed.

  • You need to be hearing what they, what are they talking about, what are they struggling

  • with every day? Like, and that, that's like the same as being their friend, but--

  • >>Fitz: Right.

  • >>Ben: but it is being involved, right?

  • >Fitz: You can, the point is you can communicate and--

  • >>Ben: Right.

  • >>Fitz: be social with your team without necessarily being their friend. If you're, if you're someone,

  • everyone's friend, it really destroys the ability to sort of, sometimes you have to

  • sort of have to be stick and not the carrot, in some cases, and even--

  • >>Ben: To deliver bad news or--

  • >>Fitz: Or deliver bad news or, or just push someone in, in, in a general direction.

  • >>Ben: Right.

  • >>Fitz: So, so, the next thing is the parent-child relationship, right? Ok?

  • [Ben laughs]

  • People will, will behave the way that you treat them, ok? Now, so if you put a bunch

  • of bars up, up, on the windows and lock all the doors, everyone's gonna behave like a

  • bunch of caged animals. If you treat people like children then they're gonna behave like

  • children, ok? W-, there's a conference--

  • >>Ben: Yes.

  • >>Fitz: that we put on in Chicago and I, I got the conference facility all set up and

  • I went over and talked to guy and he showed me around and he said, "Here's the keys. I'll

  • see ya, I'll see ya in three days."

  • >>Ben: To the whole building.

  • >>Fitz: Yeah, and he's like, "This is where this is." And that sort of thing. And it was

  • an incredible amount of responsibility put upon me and there, and I was very appreciative

  • of that but I knew that I was, I was the one who had to take care of the place to make

  • sure nothing really bad happened and that sort of thing.

  • >>Ben: What about, one of the things I like about working at Google, the way our IT department

  • works, its set up as a service to help us rather than to cage us. Like, most IT departments

  • treat you like naughty children and how can we stop you from doing the bad things, right?

  • And we're gonna restrict you in every corner. And Google's IT department is, well, no, we

  • think you're a grown up and if you need something come and ask, and we'll give it to you, right?

  • Otherwise, we trust you to behave and I think that's a--

  • >>Fitz: And, and, there's some controversial s-, apar-, a, some controversial pe-, ideas

  • in here, too. Like, you may have heard that Netflix has no vacation. Their, their vacation

  • policy is you no fixed number of vacation days. You take it when you need it, right?

  • And that's, that's, I think it's really interesting and I think it's really, I'd love to see how

  • that works--

  • >>Ben: Peer pressure?

  • >>Fitz: Well, it's, it's a little bit of everything but you're not treating people like children

  • there, it's, it's an extreme, but it's something interesting to contemplate.

  • >>Ben: More antipatterns. Micromanaging, I don't think there's a lot to say here, right?

  • This is the ultimate sign--

  • >>Fitz: What I want you to say here is it's about distrust.

  • [Ben laughs]

  • >>Ben: That word, right?

  • >>Fitz: That word right there.

  • >>Ben: Right. So, it's about distrust, right? This is, this is the classic Dilbert situation.

  • And honestly, if, if, if you start micromanaging people, again, they get used to it, right?

  • They start behaving like children, like they stop doing work unless you poke them every

  • day. Are you done, yet? Are you done, yet? Are you done, yet? It's not what you want.

  • >>Fitz: Well, it can be tempting if you're very, if you're a very technical person that's

  • moved into this role, it can be very tempting sometimes because you possibly understand

  • more than someone who's just starting, or someone's who's a little more junior. And

  • the temptation, in some cases, is to give them A-B-C-D type directions.

  • >>Ben: Instead of letting them figure it out.

  • >>Fitz: Exactly, exactly. But that leads us into the next thing. Sometimes, micromanagement

  • is necessary if you follow the next pa-, antipattern, which is hiring a bunch of pushovers.

  • [Ben laughs]

  • You wind up, basically, with a team that can't move on its own and they, they require on

  • you to make every move. And, you need a team that's gonna power itself, that's not gonna

  • wait for commands. And so my general rule of thumb has always been

  • [Ben laughs]

  • since I, I, I first started managing about 12-13 years ago but then quit because I had

  • this horrible experience, which is why I'm here today. But, it was, I hire people smarter

  • than me, which isn't too hard for me, but you get people who are gonna just get things

  • done, who are gonna make things happen, where you don't have to worry about them not understanding

  • what's going on. It, I, at the time, I, I worked with another guy who, who made a, he

  • actually embodied this anitpattern. I hired all these people that were smarter than me

  • and they went off and did amazing things and he hired a bunch of people that he could push

  • and poke around. And he loved it because he had this team of flunkies that he could just

  • push and poke around.

  • >>Ben: Like a power trip, right?

  • >>Fitz: Yeah, and as his team got bigger, he started working longer and longer and longer

  • hours. And he would just sort of--

  • >>Ben: It doesn't scale.

  • >>Fitz: It doesn't scale, right?

  • [Ben laughs]

  • And he was sort of miserable and eventually wound up leaving. But--

  • >>Ben: Well, I, I, sort of I think related to this is the next pattern which is to compromise

  • when you hire. A lot of, a lot of companies will see, "We're, oh gosh; we're short-handed

  • on this team. We need two people, so let's interview 20 and we'll just hire the best

  • two no matter what."

  • >>Fitz: Bad idea.

  • [Ben laughs]

  • >>Ben: Very bad idea.

  • >>Fitz: B-, because performance and your quality is gonna go way down and if you have really

  • good people on the team, they're gonna go way away from you.

  • >>Ben: Yep.

  • >>Fitz: And they're just basically gonna leave. So, that ties a lot in again to the next antipattern,

  • which is to ignore low performers.

  • >>Ben: Holy cow. Has anyone ever worked with a low performer that nobody did anything about?

  • Right? There's nothing more, yeah, wow, there's a lot of you. There's nothing more aggravating.

  • Its like, "Oh my gosh, this person is dragging down our whole team, and I can't say anything,

  • and why isn't the manager saying anything to this person, or doing anything about it?"

  • I mean, like you said, it will cause the best people on the team to leave and find another

  • team or another job.

  • >>Fitz: Well, and this is probably the hardest thing to do as, as a leader of, of a team,

  • is to work with low performers. I, I think, there's a couple reasons for it. The main

  • reason that I've seen is you wait too long. You sort of like, if I don't look over there,

  • they'll get better, right?

  • >>Ben: Hope-, hopefully.

  • >>Fitz: It's gonna get better, yeah, hopefully.

  • [Ben laughs]

  • Hope, yeah, code powered by hope. I-, i-, it's just gonna get better and what happens

  • when you do that is you wait until it's too late. And you eventually reach a point where

  • it's hopeless and the only thing you can see is, "How do I get rid of this person?" Ok?

  • So, if you sort of--

  • >>Ben: And then that's the first conversation you have--

  • >>Fitz: Right.

  • >>Ben: with that person, when you've already decided that it's doomed. How do you even

  • rehabilitate or give them a chance to get better? So, you've already made this decision.

  • >>Fitz: Well, you, you made this mental sort of step in your head where you can't, can't

  • think about that. So, if you step in early you can actually help to manage them up or

  • out, as opposed to just like, "How do I get rid of this person?" Ok? It's not just gonna

  • get better. There's just, there's just doesn't happen.

  • >>Ben: I think, I think the next point sort of is a generalization is which we talked

  • about earlier is just there are human problems on your team. Not every problem is software

  • development, is about writing code, or technical problems, right? People, sometimes people

  • don't get along. Sometimes--

  • >>Fitz: People problems are much harder than code problems.

  • [Ben laughs]

  • >>Ben: Much harder.

  • >>Fitz: I have yet to find a bug that's as hard as a people problem.

  • >>Ben: Well, cause, it's, it's fuzzy. People are fuzzy and grey and computers are not that

  • way.

  • >>Fitz: Compilers are so much more consistent.

  • >>Ben: Exactly. Sometimes, well, I would, I guess well, this is a, this is a, sort of

  • a scary story. But, one of the things I see missing sometimes and th-, if you have like

  • a manager who's all technical, not interested in social aspects at all, the thing that,

  • that always lacking is just simple empathy, right?

  • That's sometimes all you need just to keep the social wheels greased. I had a friend

  • who was working at a company, he had his first kid, got a couple weeks off on paternity leave,

  • came back was still very sleep-deprived, discombobulated and he basically, was only working with one

  • other person in his office.

  • There was just the two of them. And he said, "You know I'm gonna be working from home and

  • doing I-R-C and chatting." And his manager found out and said, "No, you cannot work part

  • time from home at all. No, no, you have to be in the office." And why not? And basically

  • said, "Look, you have to be in the office. If, it's more important and--" What was the

  • phrase he said?

  • >>Fritz: He said, "People have kids all the time."

  • >>Ben: "Get over it."

  • [audience laughs]

  • >>Fritz: "Get over it."

  • >>Ben: It's like, what? I mean, that's amazing to--

  • >>Fritz: So, I can see the point of wanting someone to come into the office and work,

  • but that's just the wrong motivational thing to say.

  • >>Ben: Not, yeah, not understanding. So,--

  • >>Fritz: It's the rage button, the rage--

  • [Ben laughs]

  • >>Ben: So, happiness level--

  • >>Fritz: So you have to pay attention to happiness levels--

  • >>Ben: Right.

  • >>Fritz: You have to pay attention to the happiness levels of your team and it sounds

  • all like, fluffy and crazy, but you know, you really have to understand what, to be

  • able to, to have a productive team and be a, a good leader, the thing to understand

  • are people happy with the product, are they happy with where they're going, with how much

  • they're working, with the company. I mean, it's a lot of different things you have to

  • be sensitive to.

  • >>Ben: What do they call it? E-Q?

  • >>Fritz: E-Q, yeah, Emotional Quality, Emotional Quotient or something like that, yeah. Something

  • completely unmeasureable and fuzzy that engineers love.

  • >>Ben: Let's, let's talk about good things you can do, which I guess we've sort of been

  • doing it implicitly.

  • >>Fritz: This is the boring part. You can check your email--

  • [Ben laughs]

  • >>Ben: Honesty is one of the biggest foundations for everything, right? If, if you're stuck,

  • if you don't know what to do, go ahead and say so, right? Nobody expects you to be perfect

  • or to have all the answers, right? Well, actually, you should talk about the compliment sandwich.

  • This is the, the thing--

  • >>Fritz: The compliment sandwich--

  • >>Ben: the, the dishonest way to get heard.

  • >>Fritz: How many people have heard of the compliment sandwich? Ok.

  • >>Ben: Let's watch, something

  • >>Fritz: --Ok, so for the rest of you, so the compliment sandwich is this, it this traditional

  • management technique for delivering harsh feedback. You come into the room and you say,

  • "Ben, you know, you've done a really good job, you've been a great team member and all,

  • your code is really, really low quality, but I like your beard." Ok?

  • [audience laughs]

  • And Ben walks out going, "He likes my beard and I'm a good guy."

  • >>Ben: Awesome.

  • >>Fritz: The compliment sandwich is a lie, ok? It's like the cake, it's a lie.

  • [Ben coughs]

  • It's just a bad idea and I, I personally think that it's better to be constructive, straight

  • forward, and direct while still having that empathy for the person that you're giving

  • it to. I like nothing better than to receive very constructive feedback if I've done something

  • wrong. And I mean--

  • >>Ben: Right. But you have to be tactful when you do it, right?

  • >>Fitz: Yeah.

  • >>Ben: Honestly does not mean compliments, I mean--

  • >>Fitz: Give an example of that.

  • >>Ben: Well, yeah. Wha-, what's a good example of this? So--

  • >>Fitz: Well, here's, we had a guy, we had a guy that, that we worked with years ago

  • who was really technically strong, wanted to argue absolutely everything, ok? Everything

  • was an argument, ok?

  • >>Ben: --Great coder though.

  • >>Fitz: --Solid coder, right? Ok, so the nonconstructive is they say, is stop being a dick and fighting

  • with everybody, ok?

  • >>Ben: Right, not the way, the way to deliver the message.

  • >>Fitz: What do you think, where do you think that's gonna get you? They say, "Oh, wow.

  • I was being a jerk. I should stop this."

  • >>Ben: Right, right.

  • >>Fitz: So, so that's--

  • >>Ben: What's, what's the better way, the way you do it. I like the way you--

  • >>Fitz: The, the, the better way is, and this was explained to me by one of my previous

  • managers, is that you're in a station and a train's gonna come by every ten minutes

  • all day long, ok? Now, you need to pick which train you want to step in front of, ok?

  • >>Ben: You can't stand in front of all the--

  • >>Fitz: You can't step in front of every train or you're gonna be flattened, ok? Every time

  • you step in front of one of these trains, the engineers gotta slam on the brakes. Some

  • of them might hit you, but they're gonna be annoyed because you're throwing them off schedule.

  • >>Ben: I think it's a way of saying "choose your battles", right?

  • >>Fitz: It's a way of saying "choose your battles," right? But, it sounds more fun when

  • you're talking about trains, right? Everybody loves trains.

  • >>Ben: All right, let's, let's talk about the next pattern--

  • >>Fitz: But, but the other thing about the honesty that I wanna leave this on is there's

  • no such thing as a temporary lapse of integrity.

  • >>Ben: I like that.

  • >>Fitz: That's, that's something that, that was a piece of advice that I was, and all

  • this stuff really, a lot of this advice is coming from advice that we've gotten from

  • our mentors who taught us. But, that's one of the most important things I, I, I think

  • I've learned is the temporary lapse.

  • >>Ben: Yep. Temporary lapse.

  • >>Fitz: Temporary lapse of integrity ess-, that means you have no integrity. So, that's

  • where I think that the honesty really comes in as important.

  • >Ben: Speaking of folks that we, that we admire, there's, there's a manager at Google who we

  • love and we always refer to him as a Zen Master, right?

  • >>Fitz: Right.

  • >>Ben: We think of him that way because he, we're talking about, exudes calmness, right?

  • I--

  • >>Fitz: In, in, in utter chaos, I, we, we see someone come running into his office and

  • say, "Somebody's bombed 19 of our data centers, oh my God!" And he's just lean back and say,

  • "Hmm, I wonder why they didn't do 20?"

  • >>Ben: Right.

  • [audience laughs]

  • >>Fitz: That's, you know--

  • >>Ben: Yeah, right. So he, you want to ha-, have, this is something that we strive for

  • as well when we're having one-on-one's with people, or, or in any kind of meeting, right?

  • Is stay calm, stay focused, ask the team what they can do to measure the problem, how they

  • can be more productive, how, that, what, what kinds of solutions there are. When somebody

  • asks you for direct advice, if you have a direct opinion, you should give it, but if

  • you don't have an opinion you can do the psychologist thing, right, and respond with more questions.

  • Maybe--

  • >>Fitz: Well--

  • >>Ben: help them Socratically.

  • >Fitz: I think you should respond with questions off the bat first--

  • >>Ben: Off the bat?

  • >>Fitz: instead of, cause it's, i-, it's really tempting to solve it. I mean, we're sol-,

  • problem solvers by nature. Anyone who is an engineer, you're paid to pr-, solve problems,

  • ok? My wife loves this when I come home and she's like, "Oh, I had a terrible day." And

  • I'm like, "Let me fix it for you! Let me fix it for you!" And she's like, "Just listen.

  • Please. Don't fix it; I want you to hear me."

  • [audience laughs and claps]

  • >>Ben: That's, that's the Mars-Venus thing, right?

  • >>Fitz: That's the Mars-Venus thing, yeah. But if you, a, a lot of the time they don-,

  • they don't really wanna hear your solution to this. They wanna talk about it and you're

  • solution might have nothing to do with the problem.

  • >>Ben: No, but you're a sounding board--

  • >>Fitz: Yeah.

  • >>Ben: and it's ok.

  • >>Fitz: Right.

  • >>Ben: And it's good and if you can calm them down and, and just emotionally get them focused

  • again. It's a huge value, right? You're greasing the wheels again.

  • >>Fitz: And a part of this extends beyond your team, right? Ask your team how you can

  • be more productive and then measure that, ok? Outside of the team you need to build

  • relationships across the company and y-, you're gonna be that bridge to other teams and that

  • sort of thing.

  • >>Ben: This, this next pattern we've talked about in other talks; lose the ego. And, and

  • people, people misinterpret what we mean by this. We don't mean be a dead fish, have no,

  • have no confidence. It actually just means don't be egotistical, is what we're really

  • saying.

  • >>Fitz: Right.

  • >>Ben: So, we have, we have particular i-, examples of losing ego, right? Actually trusting

  • your team. They're down in the trenches every day doing stuff. It's ok. They know more than

  • you. They probably should know more than you, right? If they tell you something is or isn't

  • possible, listen. Because they know, right? And you're not down--

  • >>Fitz: But when it comes to the details of the particular--

  • >Ben: The details--

  • >>Fitz: area, right?

  • >>Ben: Have some respect for their abilities, for the accomplishments that they've done

  • so far, for, for what they've learned, what they know, what they're able to tell you from

  • being down in the trenches.

  • >>Fitz: Then, and the next one is, is something, Appreciate Inquiry. You should always actually

  • accept when someone gives you feedback or criticism. And try not to be territorial about

  • things. Try and think big picture. Now, I think this is really important in the, in

  • the high-tech world when you're writing software. I learned the hard way that this isn't necessarily

  • appreciated in other domains. I--

  • [Ben laughs]

  • I had a, a friend of mine and an electrician helping me rewire the basement in my house

  • and I was so excited about this cause I'm learning about stuff electrical. And I asked

  • this electrician about seven thousand questions. And, and I'm thinking, "Wow, I'm learning

  • all this cool stuff!" And he's thinking, "This guy doesn't trust me at all." Right?

  • >>Ben: Yeah.

  • >>Fitz: But, in, in our, in, in high tech again, when you're working on software development

  • this is something that's really important to, to listen if someone, if someone's questioning

  • something you're doing it's good to talk through it because they might actually have a good

  • idea for you.

  • >>Ben: Well, usually it's curious interest, right?

  • >>Fitz: Right.

  • >>Ben: That's, that's, maybe that's part of hacker cultures that, when somebody asks you

  • lots of questions it's usually cause they're just interested, not because they're questioning--

  • >>Fitz: Right. But, but annoying the hell out of somebody leads great into the next

  • thing which is to apologize.

  • >>Ben: Apologizing. There's, it's, it's so crazy that we have to put this slide up, right?

  • But so many people are just afraid to apologize. I see this all the time where they messed

  • up, they know they messed up, and the manager's usually the last person to apologize, right?

  • And it's ok, it's really, again, it's about being, it's about having some humility.

  • >>Fitz: So, that's about being a human, right? I mean, everybody certainly make mistakes

  • and, and especially if someone gives you constructive feedback, you go like, "Wow, I can't believe

  • I did that. I apologize."

  • >>Ben: I know it when, when, when my managers in the past have apologized it just increases

  • my respect for them, right, all the more.

  • >>Fitz: Yeah, so, ba-, back, again to stress the humility part, this doesn't mean you have

  • be a doormat.

  • [Ben laughs]

  • This doesn't mean, it, it's not the same as, as being unconfident, right? If, you can still

  • have self confidence and have opinions and this is the fine line. This is a lo-, this

  • is a really hard thing I think for some people. Some people have no problem with it, you know?

  • [Ben laughs]

  • But--

  • >>Ben: Part of getting some respect from, from peers also, like we've said before, is

  • getting your hands dirty. Like, effectively, it's ok to go down in the trenches sometimes,

  • or maybe you're curious, or maybe you wanna learn, or maybe you wanna help. And I think

  • it's good to occasionally do that if you have, if you have the time and the bandwidth, right?

  • Cuz it'll help you understand the problems that your team are dealing with more.

  • >>Fitz: You get a lot of respect and it, it shows that you're not just here to contribute

  • advice.

  • >>Ben: The next thing--

  • >>Fitz: And that's, that's again, and that's if you have time. If you're like swamped out

  • of your mind and doing way more than you can already do.

  • >>Ben: Right. But the next thing is actually hard for, for new managers. I know it took

  • me a long time to figure this out is that people don't delegate, right? The classic

  • new manager is like, "Ok, I'm in charge of like, instead of this charge of one thing,

  • I'm in charge of ten things now. So, I'm gonna try and do it all myself and ask people to

  • help me." And like, no, you still can only do one thing, which is to make sure the other

  • ten people are doing the ten things, right, that you delegated, right?

  • >>Fitz: Well, and you, you see something, you'll see a task that one of your junior

  • guys is gonna take three weeks to do when you can do it in three days and the temptation

  • is overwhelming to, to do that thing for them. And that's when you need to stop, right? Deep

  • breath, back up a little bit. But that leads into the next thing of, of delegating. If

  • you get a team that's doing enough stuff--

  • >>Ben: Self powered.

  • >>Fitz: that's self empowered, right. And there, you hire people a little smarter than

  • you, right? Just look to replace yourself, ok?

  • >>Ben: Sounds crazy but that's what sys admins do, right? Try to replace themselves with

  • shell scripts so they can play, play games at work.

  • >>Fitz: If you can replace yourself in a shell script, that's great, too. You can find something

  • else to do, I'm sure.

  • [Ben laughs]

  • Anyone writes a management shell script, please email it to me. That would be great.

  • [audience laughter]

  • >>Ben: But this is, but this is, I think this is, this is a measurement of success in management,

  • right? If you can take a team that is not performing well at all; lots of fighting,

  • lots of confusion and you can sort of push people in different ways.

  • So, they're still self powered, but they've become this well-oiled machine to the point

  • where you can almost just step back and you barely need to touch that machine anymore.

  • You're done, right? That is what they're paying you to do. That's what it means to be a leader.

  • And then you can move on to another team, right?

  • >>Fitz: Right, and if you have, so you have these capable peo-, if, bas-, what I think,

  • focus on what people can do and try and always give them a little more responsibility than

  • what they can actually d-, take, take on. Without killing them, right? You don't wanna

  • like, drive these people into the ground but you just want to give them the opportunity

  • to grow into that.

  • If they feel a little bit overwhelmed, or, or push back and realize they can't do that,

  • then that's ok. You should always give them the chance because if you cave somebody, they're

  • never gonna be able to show you what they can do. And, and you'll often be surprised.

  • >>Ben: Your successor usually comes from within the team.

  • >>Fitz: Right.

  • >>Ben: It's a great thing.

  • >>Fitz: So, I wanna talk about, briefly about making waves, ok? Know when to make waves.

  • [Ben laughs]

  • Right? Th-, that's, I was told that piece of advice and for, because I was basic-, well,

  • I don't wanna talk--

  • >>Ben: Google Wave?

  • >>Fitz: Not these kinda waves, I'm sorry. It's, it's these kind of waves. I had someone

  • who I, who I, who reported to me who was making my life complete hell and I was hoping it

  • would go away. This ties into the sort of hoping things will get better, right? There

  • are times when you're leading a team that every ounce of your soul is gonna tell you,

  • "Just be that calm center of the world."

  • >>Ben: Don't rock the boat.

  • >>Fitz: Don't rock the boat. There's something crazy going on, you just mellow out and it'll

  • be ok. And that's the time when you should be just like cannonball and jump right in

  • and, and make some waves in that team. You should attack it head on, again in a constructive

  • manner, but it's one of those things that's not gonna wind up--

  • >>Ben: Or sometimes, sometimes it's beyond your team. Sometimes it's things happening

  • in teams adjacent to you or within the company and if you ignore it, you're in trouble, right?

  • So, yeah, it's hard to break that inertia, that the, the instinct to just curl up and

  • just focus and stay safe.

  • >>Fitz: Right. And that, and another thing--

  • >>Ben: It's easier.

  • >>Fitz: We, we, we've sort of touched on this already but shield your team from distractions

  • from outside of your, outside, right? Usually, there's a lot of crazy things going on in

  • the bureaucracy of the company or in the upper echelons, and you should, or politics, bureaucracy,

  • that sort of thing. And basically, allow your team, give them the luxury of focusing on

  • what they wanna get done.

  • >>Ben: This next idea is actually, I think it's more about language, its, it's a very

  • specific language tip. The, the worst thing I've seen happen is maybe your service falls

  • over and it's one person's fault on the team; they messed up, right? Took down your whole

  • service.

  • The, the wrong thing to do is to say, "Our service was down because of Joe." Right? And

  • you embarrass that person in front of the whole team, right? That is not the way to

  • do it. What you, what we talk about is when somebody messes up, they know, right? And

  • you have, and--

  • >>Fitz: The team knows.

  • >>Ben: The team knows and you know and the person knows, right? And you don't need to

  • publically humiliate or shame somebody. That's, that's a stick, right? That's Industrial Revolution

  • stick mentality. What you do is you; you talk about it in private, in a one-on-one. And

  • say what happened and blah, blah, blah, you know, what can we do to stop it in the future?

  • So, I mean, when talking openly to your team or talking to the company about your team,

  • you talk about we succeed and fail as a, particularly, you do public praise of an individual, but

  • you privately criticize someone, right? So, "Hey, our team succeeded. Isn't that great?

  • And super thanks to this person for helping out in this way, right?" Or, "Oh, our service

  • went down and we failed as a team, we'll get better at that."

  • >>Fitz: Right.

  • >>Ben: And then you take that one person aside in private and talk about it, right? So, it's,

  • it's just, it's just the way you handle it. There, there's a tactfulness that's important.

  • >>Fitz: Right. And another thing you should look to do as a manager is to, is to build

  • consensus, right? You need to be that cata-, catalyst that people can help make things

  • happen, right? You, if know, if, you need to know when to get your team unstuck, ok,

  • or when to take a risk, but, but also, you should be there to take responsibility for

  • the failures if you're pushing things along.

  • >>Ben: Being a teacher, or a mentor. This helps if you're older, I guess, or have some

  • more experience. But, especially when you've got new people on the team, right? Either

  • assign them a mentor, or try to mentor them yourselves. Letting them, we've talked about

  • this a few times already, but letting them make mistakes and not jumping in and doing

  • it for them. Letting them goof up and learn and--

  • >>Fitz: It's the whole failure is an option thing, right? Failure is ok as long as you're

  • not failing at the same thing over and over and over again.

  • >>Ben: You should tell your antidote.

  • >>Fitz: There's a, well, there's a, there's a story about the, the senior executive that

  • made a big business mistake and lost his company ten million dollars and he comes in the next

  • morning. He's all depressed cause he's gonna lose his job and the secretary calls him,

  • "The CEO wants to see you in his office." So, he goes into the office, he's like, "I

  • suppose you'd like my resignation and here it is." He says, "Resignation? Why would I

  • want your resignation? I just spent ten million dollars training you." Right?

  • [audience laughs]

  • So, that, that's a bit of a severe example of a failure or mistake, but--

  • >>Ben: But letting people iterate and fail is important.

  • >>Fitz: But I guarantee he'll never make that mistake again.

  • [Ben laughs]

  • Ok? And so, just, just to, to move on here, set, this is getting a little bit long here

  • but--

  • >>Ben: It's a good story.

  • >>Fitz: Set clear goals. Your, your team needs to agree on the plans and you really, I think

  • a mission statement is one of those corporate double-speak things that people freak out

  • about. It's really important. If you sit down and try to come up with like a quick sentence

  • to convey what you're doing, it's gonna really cause you to come up with a moment of clarity

  • in your team, and you'll probably find out you don't all agree on where you're going.

  • >>Ben: It's, it's surprising, actually. I mean, if you took a survey of your teams and

  • said, "What is the mission of this thing we're working on?" You're gonna get different answers

  • unless you've already sat down and, and written a mission statement together and it, it sounds,

  • it sounds hokey?

  • >>Fitz: Yeah.

  • >>Ben: But it makes a huge difference in getting focused, right? And we're not talking about

  • hiring a business consultant, spending weeks to, to tal-, just have, sit down over lunch,

  • or sit down for a couple hours and have this conversation. Because it's amazing when things,

  • your, you're bombarded with distractions all the time, right?

  • Other teams telling you we want this feature or that thing or we're gonna do this, and

  • if you have a written mission statement, it's very easy to know what is in your scope and

  • what isn't, right?

  • >>Fitz: The Google Web Toolkit--

  • >>Ben: It's a huge time saver.

  • >>Fitz: You know, I worked with the Google Web Toolkit team four years ago now to wor-,

  • with their mission statement and I was talking to Bruce Johnson who, if you've ever met him

  • he's a fantastic guy, I told him, I said, "I really wanna tell ya-" he said, he told

  • me how great that was for their team. He's like, "I never realized how unfocused we were

  • until we came up with that." And I said, "I'm really appreciative of you being so supportive

  • of me at the time to do this because I know some of your team members didn't want to do

  • it." He said, "Oh, I really thought it was a waste of time." He said, --

  • >>Ben: --At the moment, right?

  • >>Fitz: "But at the moment I wanted to give you a try." And it turned out to be one of

  • the greatest things that--

  • [Ben laughs]

  • that sort of helped them to focus and say, learn when to say no and when to say yes and

  • that sort of thing.

  • >>Ben: And this, I, this, this is the last pattern, I think? Yes, yes--

  • >>Fitz: I hope so.

  • >>Ben: Finally.

  • >>Fitz: Are we done yet?

  • >>Ben: When we've mentioned this before, right, about your job is not just to, technical health.

  • It's the social health as well. Right? Have a happiness meter. Ask yourself; meet with

  • your reports once a month. Before you go into your meetings or one-on-ones with them, say,

  • "Is this person happy?" And then ask them. Say," Are you happy?" I mean, it's, it's a

  • crazy question and a lot of people are taken back and they'll say, "Yes, I am." or "No,

  • I'm not and, and here's why. I've been afraid to tell you." Right? I mean, it's, it really

  • matters.

  • >>Fitz: One of the, the scariest questions I've ever been asked by a person in management

  • to me is, "What can I do for you? What do you need from me?" And the first time I was

  • asked this, I was just like, "What kind of question is this?"

  • [Ben laughs]

  • What are you supposed to say? But I thought about it a lot and the next time they said,

  • "What do you need me?" I was, man, I was ready.

  • [Fitz laughs]

  • [audience laughs]

  • >>Ben: But, but sometimes I've seen managers, who are very technical, who take this to heart,

  • but the way they deal with it is a very super technical solution. They'll make a spreadsheet

  • and they'll track, you know, here's all the people on the team and here's all the tasks,

  • and these tasks are fun, and these tasks are horrible, and I'm gonna assign the tasks this

  • way and then the next week I'm gonna rotate, I'm gonna ro-, so everybody gets a chance

  • to, to be miserable and happy and everything's fair. And that's fine. If it, if it works,

  • that's great, right? But then, at least, he's still monitoring the happiness level, right?

  • >>Fitz: So, what Ben's saying is spread the misery around.

  • >>Ben: Spread the--

  • [Ben laughs]

  • >>Fitz: Right?

  • [audience laughs]

  • But, but, by doing this you actually give everybody a chance to be seen by others outside

  • of the team and a lot of times--

  • >>Ben: --to grow.

  • >>Fitz: That's also important, right?

  • >>Ben: Absolutely.

  • >>Fitz: So, ok, enough with the patterns.

  • >>Ben: Let's, let's do our wrap up which is longer than the middle, no, I'm kidding.

  • [Ben laughs]

  • >>Fitz: No. So, I think I should tell you a, a story that, that, this is my mother-in-law's

  • philosophy, ok? My, my wife is the last of six children and my mother-in-laws philosophy

  • is about kids is that, and I think it applies to engineers as well, ok? So, engineers are

  • like plants. Everyone needs something different. Some engineers need more water. Some engineers

  • need more sunlight and some engineers need to be buried in bullshit, ok?

  • [laughter]

  • Your job as their caretaker or leader is to know who needs what, ok? Applying the same

  • amount of water, sunlight, and bullshit to everybody means that some people are gonna

  • get way too much of something they don't need and some people are gonna get way too little

  • of something they don't need.

  • >>Ben: Now, now let's do the spreadsheet version!

  • [Ben laughs]

  • >>Fitz: Spreadsheet version.

  • >>Ben: This is, this comes out of various management classes that we've seen and you

  • might have seen as well, right? Putting people on this matrix; are they excited about what

  • they're doing or are they bored? Are they very good at directing themselves and knowing

  • what to do next, or are they just scatterbrained and you just have to constantly tell them

  • what to do?

  • And, what you really want is you wanna get everybody into that sweet spot in the upper

  • left corner. How do you get there, right? Look at each person individually. More water,

  • more light, what do they need? If they are totally disorganized you need to give them

  • some direction, right? Not all direction is micromanagement, right?

  • Some people actually need micromanagement, as long as it's just for a little bit, right?

  • Not, not if it's all the time, if they need it all the time, something's wrong, but bits

  • of direction here and there are great. Get them, get them self-supporting, right?

  • >>Fitz: And you might have some people that aren't challenged enough, or aren't--

  • >>Ben: Right.

  • >>Fitz: regularly focused on what they're doing, or--

  • >>Ben: Or they hate what they're doing.

  • >>Fitz: Right. And so, they're gonna need some inspiration, right? They're gonna need

  • some sort of, you're gonna have to figure out some way to motivate them and we'll talk

  • a little about--

  • >>Ben: Let's talk about, let's talk about motivation--

  • >>Fitz: About motivation.

  • >>Ben: This is, this is the stuff from Dan Pink's talk, right?

  • >>Fitz: This is a great picture; by the way, it's a carrot on a stick.

  • [Ben laughs]

  • So there's the carrot and there's the work you just beat with the stick.

  • [laughter]

  • Ok?

  • [Ben coughs]

  • So that doesn't work in this place, right?

  • >>Ben: So, how many people have heard "Intrinsic vs. Extrinsic Motivations?" It's a trendy

  • topic now, right? The idea is that these carrot and stick work faster, that's, that's extrinsic

  • motivation, right? It's, its motivation coming artificially from the outside and on now the

  • cool thing in management, which I believe in, which science confirms, is that--

  • >>Fitz: --Science!

  • >>Ben: --Science!

  • >>Fitz: --It works!

  • >>Ben: Right. Is intrinsic motivations, in other words, getting, getting people motivated

  • internally, right? And it's not about waving money in front of them, right? It, it's getting

  • them to actually care about what they're working on and there's, there's three big parts to

  • this that you can name--

  • >>Fitz: Well, but you can never get anyone to, to, to work as, as hard, or care as they

  • do extrinsic mot-, intrinsic--

  • >>Ben: Right.

  • >>Fitz: extrinsic motivations, right? And this is the whole Dan Pink thing, right?

  • >Ben: So what are the three big intrinsic motivations? The first one is autonomy, right?

  • In other words, trusting people to work the way that they work best, right? If that means

  • working from home once in awhile, if that means having some flexibility in, in who they're

  • working with, or how they're doing their work, that's fine. There's a, there's a, let them

  • get their work; they know how to work best, right? You can't shoehorn--

  • >>Fitz: Well, the 20 percent time is an example of that, right? The, we, we, they get 20 percent

  • time to engineers at Google. A lot of the time, there's, the, they always talk about

  • what products came out of 20 percent time. But, a lot of time it's just permission to

  • go chase something down that's bugging you, right? If you have an idea in your head and

  • you sit around and think, "This is this great idea, it's a great idea. It's just gonna rot

  • there."

  • And, and you go on thinking, "I have this great idea." And if you took four or five

  • hours, you might actually get to realize, "Well, it wasn't such a great idea but it

  • was interesting and I learned this, this and this. Now I can go back to everything else

  • and focus more." And just, you have that sort of freedom to pursue.

  • >>Ben: The, the next motivation is, is what we call mastery. Giving people the opportunity

  • to learn and grow, right? I mean, it's great to be an expert in something and maybe some

  • people view it as job security, but let me tell you, you get really bored after awhile,

  • right?

  • And if you're not, and if your manager isn't giving you a chance to learn new things and

  • get better at something, then, then you're gonna be frustrated, right? And if it's like,

  • you're really interested, if there's a chance to learn something new, you're gonna get,

  • you're gonna get excited.

  • >>Fitz: Well, how many people in this room participate in the hiring process where they

  • work? Ok. Whoa. A lot, that's great. I, there's a, there's a analogy that I like to use is

  • that we're all out there looking for the sharpest knife in the drawer, right?

  • [Ben laughs]

  • We all wanna hire the sharpest knife, ok? There's two things you can do once you get

  • that knife in your hand, ok? You can go outside and you can grind it in the sidewalk until

  • it's dull.

  • [Ben laughs]

  • And then you say, "I have a dull knife." And you throw it away and you go looking for another

  • knife, and, "I have a sharp knife." And then you grind it down, right? And there's this,

  • this sort of burn, this is the process of burning people out and not giving them a chance

  • to learn and grow. You wanna focus on getting that sharp knife, but keeping it sharp.

  • Give people opportunities to learn new technology; to learn new things. Sometimes, it doesn't

  • even have to be directly related to what you're doing. We're, we're doing a thing in our Chicago

  • office right now, we're having robot contests now, right? We're building Mindstorm robots

  • and--

  • >>Ben: Yup.

  • >>Fitz: pitting them against each other in various ways. Arguably, I don't think we're

  • gonna be shipping any robots any time soon for, for our projects in Chicago--

  • [Ben laughs]

  • but, this, it gives people a chance to get to know each other, they're learning new stuff--

  • >>Ben: Work together.

  • >>Fitz: they're working together, etc. And it's just one example of many, right.

  • >>Ben: So, the last, last intrinsic motivation is just giving people a sense of purpose,

  • right? We, we've talked in other, in other talks about letting people drive the bus,

  • right, and not just one driver. Let them work on something they care about, give them a

  • sense of ownership or stake, right? And it isn't just some thing that's being handed

  • down from the highest levels of management and they're just a cog in, in the machine.

  • Let them actually have an opinion, have a voice, direct where it's going, right? Take

  • turns giving the direction.

  • >>Fitz: Right, cuz if you follow all of this stuff and you hired really smart people who

  • are really motivated, they're gonna wanna work on something really big like that. I

  • interviewed a guy once and I said, "If you could do anything in the world, what would

  • you wanna do?" And he sat there and he looked up and he thought for a second and he said,

  • "I just wanna add value." And I was horrified by that--

  • >>Ben: [laughs] I wanna add value.

  • >>Fitz: Really, that's all you can come up with? I give you any opportunity to do anything

  • and you want to add value, add value to what? I mean, are you an adding machine?

  • [audience and Ben laughter]

  • So, reverse Polish engineering. So, that's, that sort of sums up the majority of the advice

  • of being a manager and leading other people.

  • >>Ben: Can we say the words? Autonomy, mastery, and purpose, right?

  • >>Fitz: Right?

  • >>Ben: Thank you, Dan. So, let's, let's, let's--

  • >>Fitz: We have a secret extra session that, that we're not gonna tell anyone else about

  • outside of this room, except for YouTube. And that's the Managing your Managers section,

  • right?

  • [Ben laughs]

  • This is, this is how to, it's about a couple of things, right?

  • >>Ben: Well, well how did we come up with this section, right? Someone actually told

  • us when they heard an intro version of this talk, they said, "You know I walked away from

  • your talk saying 'I'm a software engineer, I'm not managing people, what do I get out

  • of this talk? What can I walk away with? What can I do, as an engineer to help my manager

  • help me?'" And we said, "Oh, that's an interesting take on something, right?" Help me to help

  • you to help me.

  • >>Fitz: And, and, and this isn't about any sort of evil manipulation and that, that only

  • really works if you have a really crappy manager, alright? And we're not gonna teach you about

  • dealing with a crappy manager; manipulation, you can figure that out on your own.

  • [audience laughs]

  • This is, this is about how to make yourself easier to manage, improve relations with your

  • good leaders, so to speak here, and how you can help them lead you.

  • >>Ben: Right. So let's, let's just give a few, a few takeaways for engineers--

  • >>Fitz: We'll do those pretty quickly.

  • >>Ben: This--

  • >>Fitz: You're all gonna be, you're gonna say, "This is so obvious." I'm gonna get obvious

  • now.

  • >>Ben: So obvious, right, right, right. First of all, act like a grown-up, right? Don't

  • expect to be micromanaged, get your work done on time without someone poking you, right?

  • And, well what, what's your story?

  • >>Fitz: I, I had a new engineer starting. He was a really senior guy and he's a, I,

  • I, I still work with him to this day--

  • [Ben laughs]

  • and as his first day--

  • >>Ben: --Much smarter than us.

  • >>Fitz: And, exactly, much smarter than me. And he came in his first day, at the end of

  • the day; he came to my office at like a quarter to five and said, "I gotta head out now. I

  • have an appointment that I set up like, months ago for a doctor and, you know, I just like"

  • and he's just going on and on and I'm just like, "Why are you telling me this?"

  • [Ben laughs]

  • And, and I said, "Look, don't tell me these things." I said, "You come to work when you

  • come to work, you go home when you go home. As long as you work 70 to 80 hours a week,

  • I don't care."

  • [audience laughs]

  • And he looked at me and said, "Wow, I'm gonna have so much free time at my new job!"

  • [laughter]

  • But, I, I sort of gave, try to give them like this sort of joke at the end there, but, I

  • mean, the, the purpose of the matter is that, look, I'm not here, I, I'm not gonna judge

  • your productivity by how many time, hours I see your butt in that seat.

  • >>Ben: Right. But if, if you were, get your work done and if you're not people will notice.

  • But, don't expect to be nagged to get your work done.

  • >>Fitz: Right.

  • >>Ben: The next thing you can do is to, and this goes with the mastery, right? Pursue

  • new things, pursue responsibility, don't just fall into your old, little world and put up

  • with a stick in a cave and this is what I know and I'm not gonna do anything else, right?

  • Show some forward growth; show some interest in other things. Go to your manager and say,

  • "I want to work on something new, or I wanna be responsible for this new thing."

  • >>Fitz: So you step out of your comfort zone, right?

  • >>Ben: Yep, yep.

  • >>Fitz: Another thing is to allow mistakes, ok? Remember that failure is ok; take calculated

  • risks. If you screw up or something happens, write a post mortem, identify what went wrong,

  • identify what you've learned from this--

  • >>Ben: Absolutely.

  • >>Fitz: and, and move ahead. And again, the whole "failure is ok" thing is, is really

  • important as long as you're not failing at the same thing and use it as a learning opportunity.

  • >>Ben: The other thing you can do as an engineer is, is to, to talk. Just let people know what

  • you're thinking. Let your teammates know what you think, let your manager know what you

  • think. Nothing, nothing is, is more frustrating to me, at least as a manager, is when somebody

  • goes, "Ok, I got my task. I go off in my cave, see you in a week." It's like, well, are,

  • are you frustrated? Or is it going ok for you, is it not going ok? Like, what do you

  • do? I don't wanna just talk to you once a week.

  • >>Fitz: Well, they just expect that you're omniscient; you're just gonna figure it all

  • out.

  • >>Ben: Yeah, yeah. So, so, share, share what's going on, right? It helps if somebody is sitting

  • next to you and you can turn around and say, "I'm really frustrated right now." Or, "This

  • is great."

  • >>Fitz: Or I have a great idea for something, that sort of thing.

  • >>Ben: Yeah, absolutely.

  • >>Fitz: Pointing out obstacles is also, also very helpful.

  • >>Ben: It ties in.

  • >>Fitz: Yeah, don't, it's, it's sort of that constructive, almost criticism of the product,

  • in that case. Don't be shy; don't be afraid to point out that this is what's a problem

  • that you see because--

  • >>Ben: Your manager is not omniscient.

  • >>Fitz: Right.

  • >>Ben: So many obstacles that need--

  • >>Fitz: And this is something that's really important to me is, is argue, ok? I don't

  • want yes-men working for me. I, I, cuz I probably got way too much going on for me to get all

  • the details right and someone would ask me a question and I, I would interrogate them

  • a bit and I'll say, "Yeah, what about this?" And they'll be like, "Yeah!" And they'll go

  • off and do it when I, what I really wanted to do was have more of a dialogue and hear

  • more of what they're thinking.

  • >>Ben: Right, but dialogue is the way you solve problems, not, "Here's my idea." "Yes,

  • sir." That doesn't solve--

  • >Fitz: Wait, I'm gonna admit that I'm wrong. My mind is changed; I changed my mind and

  • if, if I deserve it, then criticize me. Certainly.

  • >>Ben: Let's finish up.

  • >>Ben and Fitz: Is anyone still awake?

  • >>Ben: Ok, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, let's talk about three concepts

  • you can walk away with, right? Here's the three things to remember when you leave the

  • room. First of all, being a manager is about serving people, not having them serve you.

  • You serve them.

  • Second thing, all the patterns and antipatterns somehow trace back to mutual respect, right?

  • You respect them; they respect you back, vice versa, right?

  • And the third thing is think about what people, what's motivating them, right? It's not carrots

  • and sticks. It's whether they actually care about what they're working on, are they growing,

  • are you giving them autonomy and trust to, to, to do what they need to do?

  • >>Fitz: And with that, so stop being a manager and start being a leader.

  • >>Ben: That's it.

  • >>Fitz: And with that, thank you guys for joining us today.

  • >>Ben: Thanks.

  • [applause]

  • >>Fitz: Everybody's like, lunchtime, they're out of here. If you have a question, just

  • step up to the mic.

  • >>Ben: No, I think they're hungry. Or we'll let the hungry people leave. If anybody has

  • questions, we'll stick around.

  • >>Fitz: Oh, he's got a question.

  • >>Male audience1: Hi. I got a question on, on the Wave?

  • >>Ben: It is on the Wave, we didn't see it.

  • >>audience1: There, there are a couple of questions you can check, too. Managers invest

  • a lot of effort in sharpening the knives, or keeping them sharp. And the problem I'm,

  • if that, if you're a good manager and you have your, all your knives are sharp, other

  • managers start looking for your sharps. So, what would you recommend for your sharp knives?

  • So, what would you recommend for improving the, the team, I don't know how to say it

  • in English, like fidelity or, or people--

  • >>Fitz: Cohesiveness, you're trying to retain your people?

  • >>audience1: Wanting, wanting to stay in your sharp drawer and not someone else's.

  • >>Ben: So, the questions about if you have a drawer full of sharp knives, how do you

  • retain them?

  • >>audience1: Yeah.

  • >>Ben: Without other people, --

  • >>Fitz: How to keep other chefs out of your knife drawer?

  • >>Ben: I'm not sure I like the, I'm not sure I like the underlying assumptions there, right?

  • There's a territorialness that, it's a little odd. I mean, I, I know that's sort of the

  • norm for corporate culture is to have managers fighting with each other over people.

  • >>Fitz: I think, I think that the, the real solution to that is to turn it around, is

  • to focus on making, making your, the, work environment and the culture of your team,

  • and focusing your product, no matter what you're working on as being compelling and

  • as interesting as possible for people. And let, if someone decides they wanna go somewhere

  • else, or they want a change of venue, or need to move somewhere or something, they're gonna

  • do that and--

  • >>Ben: And try to make it not your fault, though.

  • [Ben laughs]

  • >>Fitz: Yes, exactly. Try to make them leave because they found a more attractive knife

  • drawer, not because they hate yours.

  • >>Ben: Yeah, or, or they're bored with your project or something.

  • >>Fitz: This analogy is just not going that far, right?

  • [Ben laughs]

  • >>audience1: Thank you.

  • Next question?

  • >>Male audience2: Hey, this is on the Wave, too. Do you guys do anything different for

  • volunteer projects versus managing a team at a paid organization?

  • >>Ben: Do we do anything different for volunteer projects compared to a big organization? In

  • my experience, it has not been very different but then again, Google is not a typical company,

  • either, right? It's sort of run in a very open source-y kind of way.

  • >>Fitz: I think, I think it can be harder, the, I think it's always harder at, in an

  • environment where its paid and I, even at Google. I would argue just because people

  • who are volunteering are there because they want to all the time and I feel like they're

  • excited and happy because they're part of that team because, the interview processes

  • is what gets you into the company and you're just dumped into a team, in a lot of cases.

  • When you join a volunteer project, like--

  • >>Ben: They're intrinsically motivated already.

  • >>Fitz: Right. When you join a volunteer project, you're not only intrinsically motivated, but

  • you, you're typically, the culture sort of selects for you, right? So, it takes a certain

  • amount of, it's sort of like a transmission. You have to get up to speed and mesh gears

  • before you're gonna join that team, or they're gonna accept you. And so, if you, if there,

  • if there isn't that gear meshing and people don't see it as a, more of a privilege to

  • be on a team, then I think it, I think that's what makes it harder.

  • >>Ben: I see it as volunteers are intrinsically motivated so they typically need more direction,

  • where when you're in a company, you're getting paid no matter what. I think people need more

  • intrinsic motivation, and less direction. I guess that's how I would weight it.

  • >>Fitz: Yeah.

  • >>Ben: Other questions? Come, come to the microphone.

  • >>Male audience3: Please, please, last question. It's not very clear for me i-, what happen

  • if one person of your team is, is your real friend, is a best friend for you. What do

  • you do in this case?

  • >>Fitz: What do you do when one per-, well, what do you do when the person standing next

  • to you on stage reports to you? Hmmm, what did we do? Well, I mean, in our case, it was--

  • >>Ben: We dodged a bullet.

  • >>audience3: What do we do when we lose--

  • >>Fitz: Well, Ben actually reported to me for awhile because Chicago needed someone

  • to run the engineering office. And, it, it, at first, I think we both thought it would

  • be a little bit awkward, but it, I don't think it was because, it was easy in our case because

  • Ben is very intrinsically motivated--

  • >>Ben: Right.

  • >>Fitz: and, and doesn't need a lot of direction. If it had been the other way, I don't know

  • how easy it would've been.

  • >>Ben: If it's like, if, if your peer is not performing well and you're supposed to deliver

  • news, I honestly I would get out of that situation I guess. I would've gone, if I ever found

  • myself in that situation, managing a friend who is not performing well, I would've asked

  • to, to, for my manager to change the situation.

  • >>Fitz: Sort of recu-, you recuse yourself from management in that case.

  • >>Ben: Yeah, yeah.

  • >>Fitz: That's probably would have been the best thing to do.

  • >>Ben: If the persons just an awesome performer then you can just turn a blind eye and it's

  • not a problem.

  • >>Fitz: Right, cause you're running to keep up with them anyway.

  • >>Ben: [laughs] Right.

  • >>Fitz: One more question?

  • >>Male audience4: You're advice was don't ignore the humans element in your team, which

  • is very good advice, but sometimes your team members have personal issues outside of work

  • between themselves. And there's this very thin line between trying to intervene in their

  • personal lives and it's also affecting their work. So, I know this is probably not an easy

  • question to answer, but, have you had any experiences where your teammates had personal

  • issues between themselves outside of work that is affecting their work?

  • >>Ben: So, if, the question is have we had problems with teammates having interpersonal

  • issues outside of work affecting work? How do you deal with that?

  • >>Fitz: Well--

  • >>Ben: Without crossing a line.

  • >>Fitz: There's, I, its, its, it's very careful, its, it's a very, its, it's a problem that

  • be, that has to be handled with care and with empathy, I think. But, the, it's not like

  • you get them both in a room. I'm gonna lock you in this room and you're not coming out

  • until you both write 25,000 lines of code or something, or work your issues out. I think

  • the real answer there is that you, you can look to see if there's, if it's possible to

  • easily and simply move someone to another team--

  • >>Ben: That's what I would do.

  • >>Fitz: That's, that's the easy way out. But, the, the fact of the matter is I would probably

  • sit down in a very cour-, short and frank conversation with both of them and say, "Look,

  • you know, what I'm seeing here is some sort of issues working with so-and-so."

  • >>Ben: --Which is impacting the rest of the whole team.

  • >>Fitz: "Which seems to be impacting the whole team. Can you tell me why that might be?"

  • Ok? And this is a, this is a great technique that I learned--

  • >>Ben: Socratic.

  • >>Fitz: on, on delivering hard feedback, is to sort of ask them questions. "Why is it

  • that you're having, that there's an issue, that I perceive an issue with it? Why do,

  • why do you think I'm seeing that?"

  • >>Ben: "What do you think we should do about it?"

  • >>Fitz: And, and then just keep asking questions, they'll give your answer. And I would talk

  • to both of them quite frankly about that,

  • >>Ben: And then compliment their beard.

  • >>Fitz: And then compliment their beard, right.

  • [laughter]

  • >>Male audience5: It's interesting that, this is some famed, renowned company right now,

  • so I'm deeply, personally involved in the, figuring out the question. R-, the answer

  • to this question but it's interesting that you spend a lot of time talking about "team",

  • but every company I've worked for in the past, at the end of the quarter it's, "Who's the

  • employee of the month?"

  • And to me, that's the number one destroyer of team because, well, I helped that guy a

  • lot solving his problem and he got the recognition and I didn't. So, one of the things I-, I've

  • really thought about is I'm trying to build a culture of my company is there will be no

  • individual awards. There will be team awards with one person designated as helping, with

  • the team deciding how to distribute the reward because as soon as you have an employee of

  • the month, it's all about me now.

  • >>Fitz: So, you're creating one winner and a whole bunch of losers--

  • >>Ben: With the leader awards, right?

  • >>audience5: Exactly, right. It's, this--

  • >>Ben: I think I like Google's solution to the problem which is to have peer bonuses.

  • Like, if somebody you, you run into somebody at Google who does something amazing, way

  • beyond the call of what you expected from that person; could be on your own team, could

  • be some other team. You can actually nominate them for a peer bonus and usually it'll get

  • approved and then they, it may not be announced to the whole company, but that person feels

  • appreciated, feels like they went above and maybe it's just private between the two of

  • you, right, and the manager, and that's it. I think that's, it's pretty effective without,

  • without getting into the whole superstar--

  • >>Fitz: But, but there's, it, in summary, yeah, I agree with you.

  • [Ben laughs]

  • >>audience5: I was hoping you had a insight, but I like the peer award--

  • >>Fitz: We have no insight at all really.

  • [Ben laughs]

  • I think we're fresh out of insight. No, I mean insight on how to basically build culture

  • in that set-, in that setting.

  • >>audience5: Well, how, how to reward, how to reward without picking, like you said,

  • who, who gets to be up on stage and who doesn't? Who gets the recognition and who doesn't,

  • right? Which is a very, like you missed the cutoff by like, point one percent kind of

  • thing, or something stupid like that. Only one person can be valedictorian.

  • >>Fitz: I think the, the way that I reward, I reward top performers that are working with

  • me are, is, basically with more opp-, more opportunity. I, I focus really hard on what

  • I can do--

  • >>audience5: Hold up, I'm gonna interrupt you. I'm not talking about the top performers;

  • I'm talking about the people that enabled the top performers to be top performers.

  • >>Fitz: Well, I think I recog-, ok, so, I also help them, I mean, it's again, anyone

  • who's working toward the betterment of the team is a, is a good performer, a good, solid

  • performer, ok? So it's not about, there aren't any awards that are sort of extrinsic motivations,

  • like, "You're gonna get two carrots, and you're gonna get three carrots." Right? That sort

  • of thing. I, so, we can chat more about that later.

  • >>Ben: We're actually; we're actually out of time.

  • >>Fitz: We are out of time.

  • >>Ben: W-, w-, we'll go in the hallway--

  • >>Fitz: Ok.

  • >>Ben: if you wanna keep chatting.

  • >>Fitz: Thank you all. Have a good day.

  • >>Ben: Thanks.

  • [applause]

>>Male 1: Ok, hi >>Male 2: --Hi

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谷歌I/O 2010 - 工程領導力的樂趣 (Google I/O 2010 - The joys of engineering leadership)

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