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  • DONALD TRUMP: Nobody knows the system better than me.

  • I alone can fix it.

  • HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON: I'm going to close my campaign focused on opportunities for kids

  • and fairness for families.

  • DONALD TRUMP: Hillary failed on the economy.

  • Everything she touched didn't work out, nothing.

  • HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON: Even if you're totally opposed to Donald Trump, you may still have

  • some questions about me.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: Good evening.

  • I'm Judy Woodruff.

  • GWEN IFILL: And I'm Gwen Ifill.

  • Welcome to this "PBS NewsHour" special coverage of the first debate between the two major-party

  • presidential candidates, Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump.

  • The stage is set at Hofstra University on Long Island, New York.

  • With the election 43 days away the race tightening, a lot is on the line tonight, Judy.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: It certainly is, Gwen, and given that this is the first time these two

  • have faced each other one on one.

  • Lester Holt of NBC News will be moderating.

  • Joining us at the table are our regular contributors, syndicated columnist Mark Shields, New York

  • Times columnist David Brooks, and from The Cook Political Report, Amy Walter.

  • We welcome all you have here for the next two hours.

  • Amy, let's start with you.

  • What are you looking for?

  • AMY WALTER, The Cook Political Report: Each of these candidates has an enthusiasm gap

  • problem within their own party.

  • So, they have got to get their partisans fired up.

  • For Hillary Clinton, it's young people.

  • For Donald Trump, he's got to get those white college-educated voters back into the Republican

  • fold, where they have been.

  • And then they have got to get those voters, both of them, who are torn, don't like either

  • choice they have in front of them, to pick them.

  • GWEN IFILL: Mark Shields, what would you -- surprise you the most of what these candidates might

  • or might not do tonight?

  • MARK SHIELDS: Does Donald Trump dare to be boring?

  • Does he come out sedated/presidential?

  • And can Hillary Clinton, who is a marvelous and superior deliverer of information, make

  • an emotional connection with American voters?

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: David, what are you on the edge of your seat looking for?

  • DAVID BROOKS: We have been around each other too long.

  • I wrote down emotional connection.

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • MARK SHIELDS: Did you?

  • DAVID BROOKS: This is not a cognitive night.

  • This is not philosophy.

  • This is not grand strategy.

  • It's moment of intimacy, that unscripted moment when the unconscious is revealed that will

  • be replayed on YouTube over and over and over again.

  • And so it's just, is he commanding or is he cruel?

  • Is she relatable and does she seem calmly smart?

  • And it's whether people get that vibe, the first they vibe, that will determine the night.

  • GWEN IFILL: Is this about what they know or who they are?

  • AMY WALTER: Well, I think it's mostly about who they are.

  • For voters at this stage of the game, they are looking up on that dais to see who they

  • can spend the next four years with, who they want to invite into their homes moment after

  • moment.

  • Many voters say, I don't want either one of them in there.

  • GWEN IFILL: A lot of them.

  • AMY WALTER: A lot of voters are saying that.

  • But this is the one maybe that they're not going to like, but they will feel comfortable

  • enough.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: But, Mark, people are going to be fact-checking this debate.

  • They're going to be raising questions about whether what either one of them said was correct

  • or not.

  • MARK SHIELDS: No, you're right, Judy.

  • And if it's what they know, it will be a short evening...

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • MARK SHIELDS: ... for the Republican nominee, whose knowledge bank has been overdrawn.

  • And I think it's about, more than anything else, each case, what does he know, his command

  • of it, is he comfortable with it, and who she is.

  • And I think that is really the question.

  • DAVID BROOKS: And there is the gender politics.

  • GWEN IFILL: OK.

  • Well, we're turning now to Lester Holt of NBC News.

  • TRANSCRIPT START

  • HOLT: Good evening from Hofstra University in Hempstead, New York.

  • I'm Lester Holt, anchor of "NBC Nightly News."

  • I want to welcome you to the first presidential debate.

  • The participants tonight are Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton.

  • This debate is sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates, a nonpartisan, nonprofit

  • organization.

  • The commission drafted tonight's format, and the rules have been agreed to by the campaigns.

  • The 90-minute debate is divided into six segments, each 15 minutes long.

  • We'll explore three topic areas tonight: Achieving prosperity; America's direction; and securing

  • America.

  • At the start of each segment, I will ask the same lead-off question to both candidates,

  • and they will each have up to two minutes to respond.

  • From that point until the end of the segment, we'll have an open discussion.

  • The questions are mine and have not been shared with the commission or the campaigns.

  • The audience here in the room has agreed to remain silent so that we can focus on what

  • the candidates are saying.

  • I will invite you to applaud, however, at this moment, as we welcome the candidates:

  • Democratic nominee for president of the United States, Hillary Clinton, and Republican nominee

  • for president of the United States, Donald J. Trump.

  • (APPLAUSE)

  • CLINTON: How are you, Donald?

  • (APPLAUSE)

  • HOLT: Good luck to you.

  • (APPLAUSE)

  • Well, I don't expect us to cover all the issues of this campaign tonight, but I remind everyone,

  • there are two more presidential debates scheduled.

  • We are going to focus on many of the issues that voters tell us are most important, and

  • we're going to press for specifics.

  • I am honored to have this role, but this evening belongs to the candidates and, just as important,

  • to the American people.

  • Candidates, we look forward to hearing you articulate your policies and your positions,

  • as well as your visions and your values.

  • So, let's begin.

  • We're calling this opening segment "Achieving Prosperity."

  • And central to that is jobs.

  • There are two economic realities in America today.

  • There's been a record six straight years of job growth, and new census numbers show incomes

  • have increased at a record rate after years of stagnation.

  • However, income inequality remains significant, and nearly half of Americans are living paycheck

  • to paycheck.

  • Beginning with you, Secretary Clinton, why are you a better choice than your opponent

  • to create the kinds of jobs that will put more money into the pockets of American works?

  • CLINTON: Well, thank you, Lester, and thanks to Hofstra for hosting us.

  • The central question in this election is really what kind of country we want to be and what

  • kind of future we'll build together.

  • Today is my granddaughter's second birthday, so I think about this a lot.

  • First, we have to build an economy that works for everyone, not just those at the top.

  • That means we need new jobs, good jobs, with rising incomes.

  • I want us to invest in you.

  • I want us to invest in your future.

  • That means jobs in infrastructure, in advanced manufacturing, innovation and technology,

  • clean, renewable energy, and small business, because most of the new jobs will come from

  • small business.

  • We also have to make the economy fairer.

  • That starts with raising the national minimum wage and also guarantee, finally, equal pay

  • for women's work.

  • CLINTON: I also want to see more companies do profit-sharing.

  • If you help create the profits, you should be able to share in them, not just the executives

  • at the top.

  • And I want us to do more to support people who are struggling to balance family and work.

  • I've heard from so many of you about the difficult choices you face and the stresses that you're

  • under.

  • So let's have paid family leave, earned sick days.

  • Let's be sure we have affordable child care and debt-free college.

  • How are we going to do it?

  • We're going to do it by having the wealthy pay their fair share and close the corporate

  • loopholes.

  • Finally, we tonight are on the stage together, Donald Trump and I. Donald, it's good to be

  • with you.

  • We're going to have a debate where we are talking about the important issues facing

  • our country.

  • You have to judge us, who can shoulder the immense, awesome responsibilities of the presidency,

  • who can put into action the plans that will make your life better.

  • I hope that I will be able to earn your vote on November 8th.

  • HOLT: Secretary Clinton, thank you.

  • Mr. Trump, the same question to you.

  • It's about putting money -- more money into the pockets of American workers.

  • You have up to two minutes.

  • TRUMP: 21:08:32 Thank you, Lester.

  • Our jobs are fleeing the country.

  • They're going to Mexico.

  • They're going to many other countries.

  • You look at what China is doing to our country in terms of making our product.

  • They're devaluing their currency, and there's nobody in our government to fight them.

  • And we have a very good fight.

  • And we have a winning fight.

  • Because they're using our country as a piggy bank to rebuild China, and many other countries

  • are doing the same thing.

  • So we're losing our good jobs, so many of them.

  • When you look at what's happening in Mexico, a friend of mine who builds plants said it's

  • the eighth wonder of the world.

  • They're building some of the biggest plants anywhere in the world, some of the most sophisticated,

  • some of the best plants.

  • With the United States, as he said, not so much.

  • So Ford is leaving.

  • You see that, their small car division leaving.

  • Thousands of jobs leaving Michigan, leaving Ohio.

  • They're all leaving.

  • And we can't allow it to happen anymore.

  • As far as child care is concerned and so many other things, I think Hillary and I agree

  • on that.

  • We probably disagree a little bit as to numbers and amounts and what we're going to do, but

  • perhaps we'll be talking about that later.

  • But we have to stop our jobs from being stolen from us.

  • We have to stop our companies from leaving the United States and, with it, firing all

  • of their people.

  • All you have to do is take a look at Carrier air conditioning in Indianapolis.

  • They left -- fired 1,400 people.

  • They're going to Mexico.

  • So many hundreds and hundreds of companies are doing this.

  • TRUMP: We cannot let it happen.

  • Under my plan, I'll be reducing taxes tremendously, from 35 percent to 15 percent for companies,

  • small and big businesses.

  • That's going to be a job creator like we haven't seen since Ronald Reagan.

  • It's going to be a beautiful thing to watch.

  • Companies will come.

  • They will build.

  • They will expand.

  • New companies will start.

  • And I look very, very much forward to doing it.

  • We have to renegotiate our trade deals, and we have to stop these countries from stealing

  • our companies and our jobs.

  • HOLT: Secretary Clinton, would you like to respond?

  • CLINTON: Well, I think that trade is an important issue.

  • Of course, we are 5 percent of the world's population; we have to trade with the other

  • 95 percent.

  • And we need to have smart, fair trade deals.

  • We also, though, need to have a tax system that rewards work and not just financial transactions.

  • And the kind of plan that Donald has put forth would be trickle-down economics all over again.

  • In fact, it would be the most extreme version, the biggest tax cuts for the top percent of

  • the people in this country than we've ever had.

  • I call it trumped-up trickle-down, because that's exactly what it would be.

  • That is not how we grow the economy.

  • We just have a different view about what's best for growing the economy, how we make

  • investments that will actually produce jobs and rising incomes.

  • I think we come at it from somewhat different perspectives.

  • I understand that.

  • You know, Donald was very fortunate in his life, and that's all to his benefit.

  • He started his business with $14 million, borrowed from his father, and he really believes

  • that the more you help wealthy people, the better off we'll be and that everything will

  • work out from there.

  • I don't buy that.

  • I have a different experience.

  • My father was a small-businessman.

  • He worked really hard.

  • He printed drapery fabrics on long tables, where he pulled out those fabrics and he went

  • down with a silkscreen and dumped the paint in and took the squeegee and kept going.

  • And so what I believe is the more we can do for the middle class, the more we can invest

  • in you, your education, your skills, your future, the better we will be off and the

  • better we'll grow.

  • That's the kind of economy I want us to see again.

  • 21:12:21

  • HOLT: Let me follow up with Mr. Trump, if you can.

  • You've talked about creating 25 million jobs, and you've promised to bring back millions

  • of jobs for Americans.

  • How are you going to bring back the industries that have left this country for cheaper labor

  • overseas?

  • How, specifically, are you going to tell American manufacturers that you have to come back?

  • TRUMP: Well, for one thing -- and before we start on that -- my father gave me a very

  • small loan in 1975, and I built it into a company that's worth many, many billions of

  • dollars, with some of the greatest assets in the world, and I say that only because

  • that's the kind of thinking that our country needs.

  • Our country's in deep trouble.

  • We don't know what we're doing when it comes to devaluations and all of these countries

  • all over the world, especially China.

  • They're the best, the best ever at it.

  • What they're doing to us is a very, very sad thing.

  • So we have to do that.

  • We have to renegotiate our trade deals.

  • And, Lester, they're taking our jobs, they're giving incentives, they're doing things that,

  • frankly, we don't do.

  • Let me give you the example of Mexico.

  • They have a VAT tax.

  • We're on a different system.

  • When we sell into Mexico, there's a tax.

  • When they sell in -- automatic, 16 percent, approximately.

  • When they sell into us, there's no tax.

  • It's a defective agreement.

  • It's been defective for a long time, many years, but the politicians haven't done anything

  • about it.

  • Now, in all fairness to Secretary Clinton -- yes, is that OK?

  • Good.

  • I want you to be very happy.

  • It's very important to me.

  • But in all fairness to Secretary Clinton, when she started talking about this, it was

  • really very recently.

  • She's been doing this for 30 years.

  • And why hasn't she made the agreements better?

  • The NAFTA agreement is defective.

  • Just because of the tax and many other reasons, but just because of the fact...

  • HOLT: Let me interrupt just a moment, but...

  • TRUMP: Secretary Clinton and others, politicians, should have been doing this for years, not

  • right now, because of the fact that we've created a movement.

  • They should have been doing this for years.

  • What's happened to our jobs and our country and our economy generally is -- look, we owe

  • $20 trillion.

  • We cannot do it any longer, Lester.

  • HOLT: 21:14:28 Back to the question, though.

  • How do you bring back -- specifically bring back jobs, American manufacturers?

  • How do you make them bring the jobs back?

  • TRUMP: Well, the first thing you do is don't let the jobs leave.

  • The companies are leaving.

  • I could name, I mean, there are thousands of them.

  • They're leaving, and they're leaving in bigger numbers than ever.

  • And what you do is you say, fine, you want to go to Mexico or some other country, good

  • luck.

  • We wish you a lot of luck.

  • But if you think you're going to make your air conditioners or your cars or your cookies

  • or whatever you make and bring them into our country without a tax, you're wrong.

  • And once you say you're going to have to tax them coming in, and our politicians never

  • do this, because they have special interests and the special interests want those companies

  • to leave, because in many cases, they own the companies.

  • So what I'm saying is, we can stop them from leaving.

  • We have to stop them from leaving.

  • And that's a big, big factor.

  • HOLT: Let me let Secretary Clinton get in here.

  • CLINTON: 21:15:19 Well, let's stop for a second and remember where we were eight years ago.

  • We had the worst financial crisis, the Great Recession, the worst since the 1930s.

  • That was in large part because of tax policies that slashed taxes on the wealthy, failed

  • to invest in the middle class, took their eyes off of Wall Street, and created a perfect

  • storm.

  • In fact, Donald was one of the people who rooted for the housing crisis.

  • He said, back in 2006, "Gee, I hope it does collapse, because then I can go in and buy

  • some and make some money."

  • Well, it did collapse.

  • TRUMP: 21:16:02 That's called business, by the way.

  • CLINTON: Nine million people -- nine million people lost their jobs.

  • Five million people lost their homes.

  • And $13 trillion in family wealth was wiped out.

  • Now, we have come back from that abyss.

  • And it has not been easy.

  • So we're now on the precipice of having a potentially much better economy, but the last

  • thing we need to do is to go back to the policies that failed us in the first place.

  • Independent experts have looked at what I've proposed and looked at what Donald's proposed,

  • and basically they've said this, that if his tax plan, which would blow up the debt by

  • over $5 trillion and would in some instances disadvantage middle-class families compared

  • to the wealthy, were to go into effect, we would lose 3.5 million jobs and maybe have

  • another recession.

  • They've looked at my plans and they've said, OK, if we can do this, and I intend to get

  • it done, we will have 10 million more new jobs, because we will be making investments

  • where we can grow the economy.

  • Take clean energy.

  • Some country is going to be the clean- energy superpower of the 21st century.

  • Donald thinks that climate change is a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese.

  • I think it's real.

  • TRUMP: I did not.

  • I did not.

  • I do not say that.

  • CLINTON: I think science is real.

  • TRUMP: I do not say that.

  • CLINTON: And I think it's important that we grip this and deal with it, both at home and

  • abroad.

  • And here's what we can do.

  • We can deploy a half a billion more solar panels.

  • We can have enough clean energy to power every home.

  • We can build a new modern electric grid.

  • That's a lot of jobs; that's a lot of new economic activity.

  • So I've tried to be very specific about what we can and should do, and I am determined

  • that we're going to get the economy really moving again, building on the progress we've

  • made over the last eight years, but never going back to what got us in trouble in the

  • first place.

  • HOLT: Mr. Trump?

  • TRUMP: She talks about solar panels.

  • We invested in a solar company, our country.

  • That was a disaster.

  • They lost plenty of money on that one.

  • Now, look, I'm a great believer in all forms of energy, but we're putting a lot of people

  • out of work.

  • Our energy policies are a disaster.

  • Our country is losing so much in terms of energy, in terms of paying off our debt.

  • You can't do what you're looking to do with $20 trillion in debt.

  • The Obama administration, from the time they've come in, is over 230 years' worth of debt,

  • and he's topped it.

  • He's doubled it in a course of almost eight years, seven-and-a-half years, to be semi-

  • exact.

  • So I will tell you this.

  • We have to do a much better job at keeping our jobs.

  • And we have to do a much better job at giving companies incentives to build new companies

  • or to expand, because they're not doing it.

  • 21:18:59 And all you have to do is look at Michigan and look at Ohio and look at all

  • of these places where so many of their jobs and their companies are just leaving, they're

  • gone.

  • And, Hillary, I'd just ask you this.

  • You've been doing this for 30 years.

  • Why are you just thinking about these solutions right now?

  • For 30 years, you've been doing it, and now you're just starting to think of solutions.

  • CLINTON: Well, actually...

  • TRUMP: I will bring -- excuse me.

  • I will bring back jobs.

  • You can't bring back jobs.

  • CLINTON: Well, actually, I have thought about this quite a bit.

  • TRUMP: Yeah, for 30 years.

  • CLINTON: And I have -- well, not quite that long.

  • I think my husband did a pretty good job in the 1990s.

  • I think a lot about what worked and how we can make it work again...

  • TRUMP: Well, he approved NAFTA...

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • CLINTON: ... million new jobs, a balanced budget...

  • TRUMP: He approved NAFTA, which is the single worst trade deal ever approved in this country.

  • CLINTON: Incomes went up for everybody.

  • Manufacturing jobs went up also in the 1990s, if we're actually going to look at the facts.

  • When I was in the Senate, I had a number of trade deals that came before me, and I held

  • them all to the same test.

  • Will they create jobs in America?

  • Will they raise incomes in America?

  • And are they good for our national security?

  • Some of them I voted for.

  • The biggest one, a multinational one known as CAFTA, I voted against.

  • And because I hold the same standards as I look at all of these trade deals.

  • But let's not assume that trade is the only challenge we have in the economy.

  • I think it is a part of it, and I've said what I'm going to do.

  • I'm going to have a special prosecutor.

  • We're going to enforce the trade deals we have, and we're going to hold people accountable.

  • When I was secretary of state, we actually increased American exports globally 30 percent.

  • We increased them to China 50 percent.

  • So I know how to really work to get new jobs and to get exports that helped to create more

  • new jobs.

  • HOLT: Very quickly...

  • TRUMP: But you haven't done it in 30 years or 26 years or any number you want to...

  • CLINTON: Well, I've been a senator, Donald...

  • TRUMP: You haven't done it.

  • You haven't done it.

  • CLINTON: And I have been a secretary of state...

  • TRUMP: Excuse me.

  • CLINTON: And I have done a lot...

  • TRUMP: Your husband signed NAFTA, which was one of the worst things that ever happened

  • to the manufacturing industry.

  • CLINTON: Well, that's your opinion.

  • That is your opinion.

  • TRUMP: You go to New England, you go to Ohio, Pennsylvania, you go anywhere you want, Secretary

  • Clinton, and you will see devastation where manufacture is down 30, 40, sometimes 50 percent.

  • NAFTA is the worst trade deal maybe ever signed anywhere, but certainly ever signed in this

  • country.

  • And now you want to approve Trans-Pacific Partnership.

  • You were totally in favor of it.

  • Then you heard what I was saying, how bad it is, and you said, I can't win that debate.

  • But you know that if you did win, you would approve that, and that will be almost as bad

  • as NAFTA.

  • Nothing will ever top NAFTA.

  • CLINTON: Well, that is just not accurate.

  • I was against it once it was finally negotiated and the terms were laid out.

  • I wrote about that in...

  • TRUMP: You called it the gold standard.

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • TRUMP: You called it the gold standard of trade deals.

  • You said it's the finest deal you've ever seen.

  • CLINTON: No.

  • TRUMP: And then you heard what I said about it, and all of a sudden you were against it.

  • CLINTON: Well, Donald, I know you live in your own reality, but that is not the facts.

  • The facts are -- I did say I hoped it would be a good deal, but when it was negotiated...

  • TRUMP: Not.

  • CLINTON: ... which I was not responsible for, I concluded it wasn't.

  • I wrote about that in my book...

  • TRUMP: So is it President Obama's fault?

  • CLINTON: ... before you even announced.

  • TRUMP: Is it President Obama's fault?

  • CLINTON: Look, there are differences...

  • TRUMP: Secretary, is it President Obama's fault?

  • CLINTON: There are...

  • TRUMP: Because he's pushing it.

  • CLINTON: There are different views about what's good for our country, our economy, and our

  • leadership in the world.

  • And I think it's important to look at what we need to do to get the economy going again.

  • That's why I said new jobs with rising incomes, investments, not in more tax cuts that would

  • add $5 trillion to the debt.

  • TRUMP: But you have no plan.

  • CLINTON: But in -- oh, but I do.

  • TRUMP: Secretary, you have no plan.

  • CLINTON: In fact, I have written a book about it.

  • It's called "Stronger Together."

  • You can pick it up tomorrow at a bookstore...

  • TRUMP: That's about all you've...

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • HOLT: Folks, we're going to...

  • CLINTON: ... or at an airport near you.

  • HOLT: We're going to move to...

  • CLINTON: But it's because I see this -- we need to have strong growth, fair growth, sustained

  • growth.

  • We also have to look at how we help families balance the responsibilities at home and the

  • responsibilities at business.

  • So we have a very robust set of plans.

  • And people have looked at both of our plans, have concluded that mine would create 10 million

  • jobs and yours would lose us 3.5 million jobs, and explode the debt which would have a recession.

  • TRUMP: You are going to approve one of the biggest tax cuts in history.

  • 21:23:20 You are going to approve one of the biggest tax increases in history.

  • You are going to drive business out.

  • Your regulations are a disaster, and you're going to increase regulations all over the

  • place.

  • And by the way, my tax cut is the biggest since Ronald Reagan.

  • I'm very proud of it.

  • It will create tremendous numbers of new jobs.

  • But regulations, you are going to regulate these businesses out of existence.

  • When I go around -- Lester, I tell you this, I've been all over.

  • And when I go around, despite the tax cut, the thing -- the things that business as in

  • people like the most is the fact that I'm cutting regulation.

  • You have regulations on top of regulations, and new companies cannot form and old companies

  • are going out of business.

  • And you want to increase the regulations and make them even worse.

  • I'm going to cut regulations.

  • I'm going to cut taxes big league, and you're going to raise taxes big league, end of story.

  • HOLT: Let me get you to pause right there, because we're going to move into -- we're

  • going to move into the next segment.

  • We're going to talk taxes...

  • CLINTON: That can't -- that can't be left to stand.

  • HOLT: Please just take 30 seconds and then we're going to go on.

  • CLINTON: I kind of assumed that there would be a lot of these charges and claims, and

  • so...

  • TRUMP: Facts.

  • CLINTON: So we have taken the home page of my website, HillaryClinton.com, and we've

  • turned it into a fact-checker.

  • So if you want to see in real-time what the facts are, please go and take a look.

  • Because what I have proposed...

  • TRUMP: And take a look at mine, also, and you'll see.

  • CLINTON: ... would not add a penny to the debt, and your plans would add $5 trillion

  • to the debt.

  • What I have proposed would cut regulations and streamline them for small businesses.

  • What I have proposed would be paid for by raising taxes on the wealthy, because they

  • have made all the gains in the economy.

  • And I think it's time that the wealthy and corporations paid their fair share to support

  • this country.

  • HOLT: Well, you just opened the next segment.

  • TRUMP: Well, could I just finish -- I think I...

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • HOLT: I'm going to give you a chance right here...

  • TRUMP: I think I should -- you go to her website, and you take a look at her website.

  • HOLT: ... with a new 15-minute segment...

  • TRUMP: She's going to raise taxes $1.3 trillion.

  • HOLT: Mr. Trump, I'm going to...

  • TRUMP: And look at her website.

  • You know what?

  • It's no difference than this.

  • She's telling us how to fight ISIS.

  • Just go to her website.

  • She tells you how to fight ISIS on her website.

  • I don't think General Douglas MacArthur would like that too much.

  • HOLT: The next segment, we're continuing...

  • CLINTON: Well, at least I have a plan to fight ISIS.

  • HOLT: ... achieving prosperity...

  • TRUMP: No, no, you're telling the enemy everything you want to do.

  • CLINTON: No, we're not.

  • No, we're not.

  • TRUMP: See, you're telling the enemy everything you want to do.

  • No wonder you've been fighting -- no wonder you've been fighting ISIS your entire adult

  • life.

  • CLINTON: That's a -- that's -- go to the -- please, fact checkers, get to work.

  • HOLT: OK, you are unpacking a lot here.

  • And we're still on the issue of achieving prosperity.

  • And I want to talk about taxes.

  • The fundamental difference between the two of you concerns the wealthy.

  • Secretary Clinton, you're calling for a tax increase on the wealthiest Americans.

  • I'd like you to further defend that.

  • And, Mr. Trump, you're calling for tax cuts for the wealthy.

  • I'd like you to defend that.

  • And this next two-minute answer goes to you, Mr. Trump.

  • TRUMP: Well, I'm really calling for major jobs, because the wealthy are going create

  • tremendous jobs.

  • They're going to expand their companies.

  • They're going to do a tremendous job.

  • I'm getting rid of the carried interest provision.

  • And if you really look, it's not a tax -- it's really not a great thing for the wealthy.

  • It's a great thing for the middle class.

  • It's a great thing for companies to expand.

  • And when these people are going to put billions and billions of dollars into companies, and

  • when they're going to bring $2.5 trillion back from overseas, where they can't bring

  • the money back, because politicians like Secretary Clinton won't allow them to bring the money

  • back, because the taxes are so onerous, and the bureaucratic red tape, so what -- is so

  • bad.

  • So what they're doing is they're leaving our country, and they're, believe it or not, leaving

  • because taxes are too high and because some of them have lots of money outside of our

  • country.

  • And instead of bringing it back and putting the money to work, because they can't work

  • out a deal to -- and everybody agrees it should be brought back.

  • Instead of that, they're leaving our country to get their money, because they can't bring

  • their money back into our country, because of bureaucratic red tape, because they can't

  • get together.

  • Because we have -- we have a president that can't sit them around a table and get them

  • to approve something.

  • And here's the thing.

  • Republicans and Democrats agree that this should be done, $2.5 trillion.

  • I happen to think it's double that.

  • It's probably $5 trillion that we can't bring into our country, Lester.

  • And with a little leadership, you'd get it in here very quickly, and it could be put

  • to use on the inner cities and lots of other things, and it would be beautiful.

  • But we have no leadership.

  • And honestly, that starts with Secretary Clinton.

  • 21:28:01

  • HOLT: All right.

  • You have two minutes of the same question to defend tax increases on the wealthiest

  • Americans, Secretary Clinton.

  • CLINTON: I have a feeling that by, the end of this evening, I'm going to be blamed for

  • everything that's ever happened.

  • TRUMP: Why not?

  • CLINTON: Why not?

  • Yeah, why not?

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • You know, just join the debate by saying more crazy things.

  • Now, let me say this, it is absolutely the case...

  • TRUMP: There's nothing crazy about not letting our companies bring their money back into

  • their country.

  • HOLT: This is -- this is Secretary Clinton's two minutes, please.

  • TRUMP: Yes.

  • CLINTON: Yeah, well, let's start the clock again, Lester.

  • We've looked at your tax proposals.

  • I don't see changes in the corporate tax rates or the kinds of proposals you're referring

  • to that would cause the repatriation, bringing back of money that's stranded overseas.

  • I happen to support that.

  • TRUMP: Then you didn't read it.

  • CLINTON: I happen to -- I happen to support that in a way that will actually work to our

  • benefit.

  • But when I look at what you have proposed, you have what is called now the 21:29:01 Trump

  • loophole, because it would so advantage you and the business you do.

  • You've proposed an approach that has a...

  • TRUMP: Who gave it that name?

  • The first I've -- who gave it that name?

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • HOLT: Mr. Trump, this is Secretary Clinton's two minutes.

  • CLINTON: ... $4 billion tax benefit for your family.

  • And when you look at what you are proposing...

  • TRUMP: How much?

  • How much for my family?

  • CLINTON: ... it is...

  • TRUMP: Lester, how much?

  • CLINTON: ... as I said, trumped-up trickle-down.

  • Trickle-down did not work.

  • It got us into the mess we were in, in 2008 and 2009.

  • Slashing taxes on the wealthy hasn't worked.

  • And a lot of really smart, wealthy people know that.

  • And they are saying, hey, we need to do more to make the contributions we should be making

  • to rebuild the middle class.

  • CLINTON: I don't think top-down works in America.

  • I think building the middle class, investing in the middle class, making college debt-free

  • so more young people can get their education, helping people refinance their -- their debt

  • from college at a lower rate.

  • Those are the kinds of things that will really boost the economy.

  • Broad-based, inclusive growth is what we need in America, not more advantages for people

  • at the very top.

  • HOLT: Mr. Trump, we're...

  • TRUMP: Typical politician.

  • All talk, no action.

  • Sounds good, doesn't work.

  • Never going to happen.

  • Our country is suffering because people like Secretary Clinton have made such bad decisions

  • in terms of our jobs and in terms of what's going on.

  • Now, look, we have the worst revival of an economy since the Great Depression.

  • And believe me: We're in a bubble right now.

  • And the only thing that looks good is the stock market, but if you raise interest rates

  • even a little bit, that's going to come crashing down.

  • We are in a big, fat, ugly bubble.

  • And we better be awfully careful.

  • And we have a Fed that's doing political things.

  • This Janet Yellen of the Fed.

  • The Fed is doing political -- by keeping the interest rates at this level.

  • And believe me: The day Obama goes off, and he leaves, and goes out to the golf course

  • for the rest of his life to play golf 21:31:00, when they raise interest rates, you're going

  • to see some very bad things happen, because the Fed is not doing their job.

  • The Fed is being more political than Secretary Clinton.

  • HOLT: Mr. Trump, we're talking about the burden that Americans have to pay, yet you have not

  • released your tax returns.

  • And the reason nominees have released their returns for decades is so that voters will

  • know if their potential president owes money to -- who he owes it to and any business conflicts.

  • Don't Americans have a right to know if there are any conflicts of interest?

  • TRUMP: I don't mind releasing -- I'm under a routine audit.

  • And it'll be released.

  • And -- as soon as the audit's finished, it will be released.

  • But you will learn more about Donald Trump by going down to the federal elections, where

  • I filed a 104-page essentially financial statement of sorts, the forms that they have.

  • It shows income -- in fact, the income -- I just looked today -- the income is filed at

  • $694 million for this past year, $694 million.

  • If you would have told me I was going to make that 15 or 20 years ago, I would have been

  • very surprised.

  • But that's the kind of thinking that our country needs.

  • When we have a country that's doing so badly, that's being ripped off by every single country

  • in the world, it's the kind of thinking that our country needs, because everybody -- Lester,

  • we have a trade deficit with all of the countries that we do business with, of almost $800 billion

  • a year.

  • You know what that is?

  • That means, who's negotiating these trade deals?

  • We have people that are political hacks negotiating our trade deals.

  • HOLT: The IRS says an audit...

  • TRUMP: Excuse me.

  • HOLT: ... of your taxes -- you're perfectly free to release your taxes during an audit.

  • And so the question, does the public's right to know outweigh your personal...

  • TRUMP: Well, I told you, I will release them as soon as the audit.

  • Look, I've been under audit almost for 15 years.

  • 21:33:00 I know a lot of wealthy people that have never been audited.

  • I said, do you get audited?

  • I get audited almost every year.

  • And in a way, I should be complaining.

  • I'm not even complaining.

  • I don't mind it.

  • It's almost become a way of life.

  • I get audited by the IRS.

  • But other people don't.

  • I will say this.

  • We have a situation in this country that has to be taken care of.

  • I will release my tax returns -- against my lawyer's wishes -- when she releases her 33,000

  • e-mails that have been deleted.

  • As soon as she releases them, I will release.

  • (APPLAUSE)

  • I will release my tax returns.

  • And that's against -- my lawyers, they say, "Don't do it."

  • I will tell you this.

  • No -- in fact, watching shows, they're reading the papers.

  • Almost every lawyer says, you don't release your returns until the audit's complete.

  • When the audit's complete, I'll do it.

  • But I would go against them if she releases her e-mails.

  • HOLT: So it's negotiable?

  • TRUMP: It's not negotiable, no.

  • Let her release the e-mails.

  • Why did she delete 33,000...

  • HOLT: Well, I'll let her answer that.

  • But let me just admonish the audience one more time.

  • There was an agreement.

  • We did ask you to be silent, so it would be helpful for us.

  • Secretary Clinton?

  • CLINTON: Well, I think you've seen another example of bait-and- switch here.

  • For 40 years, everyone running for president has released their tax returns.

  • You can go and see nearly, I think, 39, 40 years of our tax returns, but everyone has

  • done it.

  • We know the IRS has made clear there is no prohibition on releasing it when you're under

  • audit.

  • So you've got to ask yourself, why won't he release his tax returns?

  • And I think there may be a couple of reasons.

  • First, maybe he's not as rich as he says he is.

  • Second, maybe he's not as charitable as he claims to be.

  • CLINTON: Third, we don't know all of his business dealings, but we have been told through investigative

  • reporting that he owes about $650 million to Wall Street and foreign banks.

  • Or maybe he doesn't want the American people, all of you watching tonight, to know that

  • he's paid nothing in federal taxes, because the only years that anybody's ever seen were

  • a couple of years when he had to turn them over to state authorities when he was trying

  • to get a casino license, and they showed he didn't pay any federal income tax.

  • 21:35:27 TRUMP: That makes me smart.

  • CLINTON: So if he's paid zero, that means zero for troops, zero for vets, zero for schools

  • or health.

  • And I think probably he's not all that enthusiastic about having the rest of our country see what

  • the real reasons are, because it must be something really important, even terrible, that he's

  • trying to hide.

  • And the financial disclosure statements, they don't give you the tax rate.

  • They don't give you all the details that tax returns would.

  • And it just seems to me that this is something that the American people deserve to see.

  • And I have no reason to believe that he's ever going to release his tax returns, because

  • there's something he's hiding.

  • And we'll guess.

  • We'll keep guessing at what it might be that he's hiding.

  • But I think the question is, were he ever to get near the White House, what would be

  • those conflicts?

  • Who does he owe money to?

  • Well, he owes you the answers to that, and he should provide them.

  • HOLT: He also -- he also raised the issue of your e-mails.

  • Do you want to respond to that?

  • CLINTON: I do.

  • You know, I made a mistake using a private e- mail.

  • TRUMP: That's for sure.

  • CLINTON: And if I had to do it over again, I would, obviously, do it differently.

  • But I'm not going to make any excuses.

  • It was a mistake, and I take responsibility for that.

  • HOLT: Mr. Trump?

  • TRUMP: That was more than a mistake.

  • That was done purposely.

  • OK?

  • That was not a mistake.

  • That was done purposely.

  • When you have your staff taking the Fifth Amendment, taking the Fifth so they're not

  • prosecuted, when you have the man that set up the illegal server taking the Fifth, I

  • think it's disgraceful.

  • And believe me, this country thinks it's -- really thinks it's disgraceful, also.

  • As far as my tax returns, you don't learn that much from tax returns.

  • That I can tell you.

  • You learn a lot from financial disclosure.

  • And you should go down and take a look at that.

  • The other thing, I'm extremely underleveraged.

  • The report that said $650 -- which, by the way, a lot of friends of mine that know my

  • business say, boy, that's really not a lot of money.

  • It's not a lot of money relative to what I had.

  • The buildings that were in question, they said in the same report, which was -- actually,

  • it wasn't even a bad story, to be honest with you, but the buildings are worth $3.9 billion.

  • And the $650 isn't even on that.

  • But it's not $650.

  • It's much less than that.

  • But I could give you a list of banks, I would -- if that would help you, I would give you

  • a list of banks.

  • These are very fine institutions, very fine banks.

  • I could do that very quickly.

  • I am very underleveraged.

  • I have a great company.

  • I have a tremendous income.

  • And the reason I say that is not in a braggadocios way.

  • It's because it's about time that this country had somebody running it that has an idea about

  • money.

  • When we have $20 trillion in debt, and our country's a mess, you know, it's one thing

  • to have $20 trillion in debt and our roads are good and our bridges are good and everything's

  • in great shape, our airports.

  • 21:38:25 Our airports are like from a third world country.

  • You land at LaGuardia, you land at Kennedy, you land at LAX, you land at Newark, and you

  • come in from Dubai and Qatar and you see these incredible -- you come in from China, you

  • see these incredible airports, and you land -- we've become a third world country.

  • So the worst of all things has happened.

  • We owe $20 trillion, and we're a mess.

  • We haven't even started.

  • And we've spent $6 trillion in the Middle East, according to a report that I just saw.

  • Whether it's 6 or 5, but it looks like it's 6, $6 trillion in the Middle East, we could

  • have rebuilt our country twice.

  • And it's really a shame.

  • And it's politicians like Secretary Clinton that have caused this problem.

  • Our country has tremendous problems.

  • We're a debtor nation.

  • We're a serious debtor nation.

  • And we have a country that needs new roads, new tunnels, new bridges, new airports, new

  • schools, new hospitals.

  • And we don't have the money, because it's been squandered on so many of your ideas.

  • HOLT: We'll let you respond and we'll move on to the next segment.

  • CLINTON: And maybe because you haven't paid any federal income tax for a lot of years.

  • (APPLAUSE)

  • And the other thing I think is important...

  • TRUMP: It would be squandered, too, believe me.

  • CLINTON: ... is if your -- if your main claim to be president of the United States is your

  • business, then I think we should talk about that.

  • You know, your campaign manager said that you built a lot of businesses on the backs

  • of little guys.

  • And, indeed, I have met a lot of the people who were stiffed by you and your businesses,

  • Donald.

  • I've met dishwashers, painters, architects, glass installers, marble installers, drapery

  • installers, like my dad was, who you refused to pay when they finished the work that you

  • asked them to do.

  • We have an architect in the audience who designed one of your clubhouses at one of your golf

  • courses.

  • It's a beautiful facility.

  • It immediately was put to use.

  • And you wouldn't pay what the man needed to be paid, what he was charging you to do...

  • TRUMP: Maybe he didn't do a good job and I was unsatisfied with his work...

  • CLINTON: Well, to...

  • TRUMP: Which our country should do, too.

  • CLINTON: Do the thousands of people that you have stiffed over the course of your business

  • not deserve some kind of apology from someone who has taken their labor, taken the goods

  • that they produced, and then refused to pay them?

  • 21:40 I can only say that I'm certainly relieved that my late father never did business with

  • you.

  • He provided a good middle-class life for us, but the people he worked for, he expected

  • the bargain to be kept on both sides.

  • And when we talk about your business, you've taken business bankruptcy six times.

  • There are a lot of great businesspeople that have never taken bankruptcy once.

  • You call yourself the King of Debt.

  • You talk about leverage.

  • You even at one time suggested that you would try to negotiate down the national debt of

  • the United States.

  • TRUMP: Wrong.

  • Wrong.

  • CLINTON: Well, sometimes there's not a direct transfer of skills from business to government,

  • but sometimes what happened in business would be really bad for government.

  • HOLT: Let's let Mr. Trump...

  • CLINTON: And we need to be very clear about that.

  • TRUMP: So, yeah, I think -- I do think it's time.

  • Look, it's all words, it's all sound bites.

  • I built an unbelievable company.

  • Some of the greatest assets anywhere in the world, real estate assets anywhere in the

  • world, beyond the United States, in Europe, lots of different places.

  • It's an unbelievable company.

  • But on occasion, four times, we used certain laws that are there.

  • And when Secretary Clinton talks about people that didn't get paid, first of all, they did

  • get paid a lot, but taken advantage of the laws of the nation.

  • Now, if you want to change the laws, you've been there a long time, change the laws.

  • But I take advantage of the laws of the nation because I'm running a company.

  • My obligation right now is to do well for myself, my family, my employees, for my companies.

  • And that's what I do.

  • But what she doesn't say is that tens of thousands of people that are unbelievably happy and

  • that love me.

  • I'll give you an example.

  • We're just opening up on Pennsylvania Avenue right next to the White House, so if I don't

  • get there one way, I'm going to get to Pennsylvania Avenue another.

  • But we're opening the Old Post Office.

  • Under budget, ahead of schedule, saved tremendous money.

  • I'm a year ahead of schedule.

  • And that's what this country should be doing.

  • We build roads and they cost two and three and four times what they're supposed to cost.

  • We buy products for our military and they come in at costs that are so far above what

  • they were supposed to be, because we don't have people that know what they're doing.

  • When we look at the budget, the budget is bad to a large extent because we have people

  • that have no idea as to what to do and how to buy.

  • The Trump International is way under budget and way ahead of schedule.

  • And we should be able to do that for our country.

  • HOLT: Well, we're well behind schedule, so I want to move to our next segment.

  • We move into our next segment talking about America's direction.

  • And let's start by talking about race.

  • The share of Americans who say race relations are bad in this country is the highest it's

  • been in decades, much of it amplified by shootings of African-Americans by police, as we've seen

  • recently in Charlotte and Tulsa.

  • Race has been a big issue in this campaign, and one of you is going to have to bridge

  • a very wide and bitter gap.

  • So how do you heal the divide?

  • Secretary Clinton, you get two minutes on this.

  • CLINTON: Well, you're right.

  • Race remains a significant challenge in our country.

  • Unfortunately, race still determines too much, often determines where people live, determines

  • what kind of education in their public schools they can get, and, yes, it determines how

  • they're treated in the criminal justice system.

  • We've just seen those two tragic examples in both Tulsa and Charlotte.

  • And we've got to do several things at the same time.

  • We have to restore trust between communities and the police.

  • We have to work to make sure that our police are using the best training, the best techniques,

  • that they're well prepared to use force only when necessary.

  • Everyone should be respected by the law, and everyone should respect the law.

  • CLINTON: Right now, that's not the case in a lot of our neighborhoods.

  • So I have, ever since the first day of my campaign, called for criminal justice reform.

  • I've laid out a platform that I think would begin to remedy some of the problems we have

  • in the criminal justice system.

  • But we also have to recognize, in addition to the challenges that we face with policing,

  • 21:45:35 there are so many good, brave police officers who equally want reform.

  • So we have to bring communities together in order to begin working on that as a mutual

  • goal.

  • And we've got to get guns out of the hands of people who should not have them.

  • The gun epidemic is the leading cause of death of young African- American men, more than

  • the next nine causes put together.

  • So we have to do two things, as I said.

  • We have to restore trust.

  • We have to work with the police.

  • We have to make sure they respect the communities and the communities respect them.

  • And we have to tackle the plague of gun violence, which is a big contributor to a lot of the

  • problems that we're seeing today.

  • HOLT: All right, Mr. Trump, you have two minutes.

  • How do you heal the divide?

  • TRUMP: Well, first of all, Secretary Clinton doesn't want to use a couple of words, and

  • that's law and order.

  • And we need law and order.

  • If we don't have it, we're not going to have a country.

  • And when I look at what's going on in Charlotte, a city I love, a city where I have investments,

  • when I look at what's going on throughout various parts of our country, whether it's

  • -- I mean, I can just keep naming them all day long -- we need law and order in our country.

  • I just got today the, as you know, the endorsement of the Fraternal Order of Police, we just

  • -- just came in.

  • We have endorsements from, I think, almost every police group, very -- I mean, a large

  • percentage of them in the United States.

  • We have a situation where we have our inner cities, African- Americans, Hispanics are

  • living in he'll because it's so dangerous.

  • You walk down the street, you get shot.

  • 21:47:17 In Chicago, they've had thousands of shootings, thousands since January 1st.

  • Thousands of shootings.

  • And I'm saying, where is this?

  • Is this a war-torn country?

  • What are we doing?

  • And we have to stop the violence.

  • We have to bring back law and order.

  • In a place like Chicago, where thousands of people have been killed, thousands over the

  • last number of years, in fact, almost 4,000 have been killed since Barack Obama became

  • president, over -- almost 4,000 people in Chicago have been killed.

  • We have to bring back law and order.

  • Now, whether or not in a place like Chicago you do stop and frisk, which worked very well,

  • Mayor Giuliani is here, worked very well in New York.

  • It brought the crime rate way down.

  • But you take the gun away from criminals that shouldn't be having it.

  • We have gangs roaming the street.

  • And in many cases, they're illegally here, illegal immigrants.

  • And they have guns.

  • And they shoot people.

  • And we have to be very strong.

  • And we have to be very vigilant.

  • We have to be -- we have to know what we're doing.

  • Right now, our police, in many cases, are afraid to do anything.

  • We have to protect our inner cities, because African-American communities are being decimated

  • by crime, decimated.

  • HOLT: Your two -- your two minutes expired, but I do want to follow up.

  • 21:48:38 Stop-and-frisk was ruled unconstitutional in New York, because it largely singled out

  • black and Hispanic young men.

  • TRUMP: No, you're wrong.

  • It went before a judge, who was a very against-police judge.

  • It was taken away from her.

  • And our mayor, our new mayor, refused to go forward with the case.

  • They would have won an appeal.

  • If you look at it, throughout the country, there are many places where it's allowed.

  • HOLT: The argument is that it's a form of racial profiling.

  • TRUMP: No, the argument is that we have to take the guns away from these people that

  • have them and they are bad people that shouldn't have them.

  • These are felons.

  • These are people that are bad people that shouldn't be -- 21:49:18 when you have 3,000

  • shootings in Chicago from January 1st, when you have 4,000 people killed in Chicago by

  • guns, from the beginning of the presidency of Barack Obama, his hometown, you have to

  • have stop-and-frisk.

  • You need more police.

  • You need a better community, you know, relation.

  • You don't have good community relations in Chicago.

  • It's terrible.

  • I have property there.

  • It's terrible what's going on in Chicago.

  • But when you look -- and Chicago's not the only -- you go to Ferguson, you go to so many

  • different places.

  • You need better relationships.

  • I agree with Secretary Clinton on this.

  • TRUMP: You need better relationships between the communities and the police, because in

  • some cases, it's not good.

  • But you look at Dallas, where the relationships were really studied, the relationships were

  • really a beautiful thing, and then five police officers were killed one night very violently.

  • So there's some bad things going on.

  • Some really bad things.

  • HOLT: Secretary Clinton...

  • TRUMP: But we need -- Lester, we need law and order.

  • And we need law and order in the inner cities, because the people that are most affected

  • by what's happening are African-American and Hispanic people.

  • And it's very unfair to them what our politicians are allowing to happen.

  • HOLT: Secretary Clinton?

  • CLINTON: 21:50:36 Well, I've heard -- I've heard Donald say this at his rallies, and

  • it's really unfortunate that he paints such a dire negative picture of black communities

  • in our country.

  • TRUMP: Ugh.

  • CLINTON: You know, the vibrancy of the black church, the black businesses that employ so

  • many people, the opportunities that so many families are working to provide for their

  • kids.

  • There's a lot that we should be proud of and we should be supporting and lifting up.

  • But we do always have to make sure we keep people safe.

  • There are the right ways of doing it, and then there are ways that are ineffective.

  • Stop-and-frisk was found to be unconstitutional and, in part, because it was ineffective.

  • It did not do what it needed to do.

  • Now, I believe in community policing.

  • And, in fact, violent crime is one-half of what it was in 1991.

  • Property crime is down 40 percent.

  • We just don't want to see it creep back up.

  • We've had 25 years of very good cooperation.

  • But there were some problems, some unintended consequences.

  • Too many young African-American and Latino men ended up in jail for nonviolent offenses.

  • And it's just a fact that if you're a young African-American man and you do the same thing

  • as a young white man, you are more likely to be arrested, charged, convicted, and incarcerated.

  • So we've got to address the systemic racism in our criminal justice system.

  • 21:52:20 We cannot just say law and order.

  • We have to say -- we have to come forward with a plan that is going to divert people

  • from the criminal justice system, deal with mandatory minimum sentences, which have put

  • too many people away for too long for doing too little.

  • We need to have more second chance programs.

  • I'm glad that we're ending private prisons in the federal system; I want to see them

  • ended in the state system.

  • You shouldn't have a profit motivation to fill prison cells with young Americans.

  • So there are some positive ways we can work on this.

  • And I believe strongly that commonsense gun safety measures would assist us.

  • Right now -- and this is something Donald has supported, along with the gun lobby -- right

  • now, we've got too many military- style weapons on the streets.

  • In a lot of places, our police are outgunned.

  • We need comprehensive background checks, and we need to keep guns out of the hands of those

  • who will do harm.

  • And we finally need to pass a prohibition on anyone who's on the terrorist watch list

  • from being able to buy a gun in our country.

  • 21:53:39 If you're too dangerous to fly, you are too dangerous to buy a gun.

  • So there are things we can do, and we ought to do it in a bipartisan way.

  • HOLT: Secretary Clinton, last week, you said we've got to do everything possible to improve

  • policing, to go right at implicit bias.

  • 21:53:50 Do you believe that police are implicitly biased against black people?

  • CLINTON: Lester, I think implicit bias is a problem for everyone, not just police.

  • I think, unfortunately, too many of us in our great country jump to conclusions about

  • each other.

  • And therefore, I think we need all of us to be asking hard questions about, you know,

  • why am I feeling this way?

  • But when it comes to policing, since it can have literally fatal consequences, I have

  • said, in my first budget, we would put money into that budget to help us deal with implicit

  • bias by retraining a lot of our police officers.

  • I've met with a group of very distinguished, experienced police chiefs a few weeks ago.

  • They admit it's an issue.

  • They've got a lot of concerns.

  • 21:54:38 Mental health is one of the biggest concerns, because now police are having to

  • handle a lot of really difficult mental health problems on the street.

  • They want support, they want more training, they want more assistance.

  • And I think the federal government could be in a position where we would offer and provide

  • that.

  • HOLT: Mr. Trump...

  • TRUMP: I'd like to respond to that.

  • HOLT: Please.

  • TRUMP: First of all, I agree, and a lot of people even within my own party want to give

  • certain rights to people on watch lists and no- fly lists.

  • I agree with you.

  • When a person is on a watch list or a no-fly list, and I have the endorsement of the NRA,

  • which I'm very proud of.

  • These are very, very good people, and they're protecting the Second Amendment.

  • But I think we have to look very strongly at no-fly lists and watch lists.

  • And when people are on there, even if they shouldn't be on there, we'll help them, we'll

  • help them legally, we'll help them get off.

  • But I tend to agree with that quite strongly.

  • I do want to bring up the fact that you were the one that brought up the words 21:55:33

  • super-predator about young black youth.

  • And that's a term that I think was a -- it's -- it's been horribly met, as you know.

  • I think you've apologized for it.

  • But I think it was a terrible thing to say.

  • And when it comes to stop-and-frisk, you know, you're talking about takes guns away.

  • Well, I'm talking about taking guns away from gangs and people that use them.

  • And I don't think -- I really don't think you disagree with me on this, if you want

  • to know the truth.

  • I think maybe there's a political reason why you can't say it, but I really don't believe

  • -- in New York City, stop-and-frisk, we had 2,200 murders, and stop-and-frisk brought

  • it down to 500 murders.

  • Five hundred murders is a lot of murders.

  • It's hard to believe, 500 is like supposed to be good?

  • But we went from 2,200 to 500.

  • And it was continued on by Mayor Bloomberg.

  • And it was terminated by current mayor.

  • But stop-and- frisk had a tremendous impact on the safety of New York City.

  • Tremendous beyond belief.

  • So when you say it has no impact, it really did.

  • It had a very, very big impact.

  • CLINTON: Well, it's also fair to say, if we're going to talk about mayors, that under the

  • current mayor, crime has continued to drop, including murders.

  • So there is...

  • TRUMP: No, you're wrong.

  • You're wrong.

  • CLINTON: No, I'm not.

  • TRUMP: Murders are up.

  • All right.

  • You check it.

  • CLINTON: New York -- New York has done an excellent job.

  • And I give credit -- I give credit across the board going back two mayors, two police

  • chiefs, because it has worked.

  • And other communities need to come together to do what will work, as well.

  • Look, one murder is too many.

  • But it is important that we learn about what has been effective.

  • And not go to things that sound good that really did not have the kind of impact that

  • we would want.

  • Who disagrees with keeping neighborhoods safe?

  • But let's also add, 21:57:30 no one should disagree about respecting the rights of young

  • men who live in those neighborhoods.

  • And so we need to do a better job of working, again, with the communities, faith communities,

  • business communities, as well as the police to try to deal with this problem.

  • HOLT: This conversation is about race.

  • And so, Mr. Trump, I have to ask you for five...

  • TRUMP: I'd like to just respond, if I might.

  • HOLT: Please -- 20 seconds.

  • TRUMP: I'd just like to respond.

  • HOLT: Please respond, then I've got a quick follow-up for you.

  • TRUMP: I will.

  • Look, the African-American community has been let down by our politicians.

  • They talk good around election time, like right now, and after the election, they said,

  • see ya later, I'll see you in four years.

  • The African-American community -- because -- look, the community within the inner cities

  • has been so badly treated.

  • They've been abused and used in order to get votes by Democrat politicians, because that's

  • what it is.

  • They've controlled these communities for up to 100 years.

  • HOLT: Mr. Trump, let me...

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • CLINTON: Well, I -- I do think...

  • TRUMP: And I will tell you,

  • DONALD TRUMP: Nobody knows the system better than me. I alone can fix it.

  • HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON: I'm going to close my campaign focused on opportunities for kids

  • and fairness for families.

  • DONALD TRUMP: Hillary failed on the economy. Everything she touched didn't work out, nothing.

  • HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON: Even if you're totally opposed to Donald Trump, you may still have

  • some questions about me.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: Good evening. I'm Judy Woodruff.

  • GWEN IFILL: And I'm Gwen Ifill.

  • Welcome to this "PBS NewsHour" special coverage of the first debate between the two major-party

  • presidential candidates, Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump.

  • The stage is set at Hofstra University on Long Island, New York. With the election 43

  • days away the race tightening, a lot is on the line tonight, Judy.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: It certainly is, Gwen, and given that this is the first time these two

  • have faced each other one on one.

  • Lester Holt of NBC News will be moderating.

  • Joining us at the table are our regular contributors, syndicated columnist Mark Shields, New York

  • Times columnist David Brooks, and from The Cook Political Report, Amy Walter.

  • We welcome all you have here for the next two hours.

  • Amy, let's start with you.

  • What are you looking for?

  • AMY WALTER, The Cook Political Report: Each of these candidates has an enthusiasm gap

  • problem within their own party. So, they have got to get their partisans fired up.

  • For Hillary Clinton, it's young people. For Donald Trump, he's got to get those white

  • college-educated voters back into the Republican fold, where they have been. And then they

  • have got to get those voters, both of them, who are torn, don't like either choice they

  • have in front of them, to pick them.

  • GWEN IFILL: Mark Shields, what would you -- surprise you the most of what these candidates might

  • or might not do tonight?

  • MARK SHIELDS: Does Donald Trump dare to be boring? Does he come out sedated/presidential?

  • And can Hillary Clinton, who is a marvelous and superior deliverer of information, make

  • an emotional connection with American voters?

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: David, what are you on the edge of your seat looking for?

  • DAVID BROOKS: We have been around each other too long. I wrote down emotional connection.

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • MARK SHIELDS: Did you?

  • DAVID BROOKS: This is not a cognitive night.

  • This is not philosophy. This is not grand strategy. It's moment of intimacy, that unscripted

  • moment when the unconscious is revealed that will be replayed on YouTube over and over

  • and over again.

  • And so it's just, is he commanding or is he cruel? Is she relatable and does she seem

  • calmly smart? And it's whether people get that vibe, the first they vibe, that will

  • determine the night.

  • GWEN IFILL: Is this about what they know or who they are?

  • AMY WALTER: Well, I think it's mostly about who they are.

  • For voters at this stage of the game, they are looking up on that dais to see who they

  • can spend the next four years with, who they want to invite into their homes moment after

  • moment.

  • Many voters say, I don't want either one of them in there.

  • GWEN IFILL: A lot of them.

  • AMY WALTER: A lot of voters are saying that.

  • But this is the one maybe that they're not going to like, but they will feel comfortable

  • enough.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: But, Mark, people are going to be fact-checking this debate. They're going

  • to be raising questions about whether what either one of them said was correct or not.

  • MARK SHIELDS: No, you're right, Judy.

  • And if it's what they know, it will be a short evening...

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • MARK SHIELDS: ... for the Republican nominee, whose knowledge bank has been overdrawn.

  • And I think it's about, more than anything else, each case, what does he know, his command

  • of it, is he comfortable with it, and who she is. And I think that is really the question.

  • DAVID BROOKS: And there is the gender politics.

  • GWEN IFILL: OK.

  • Well, we're turning now to Lester Holt of NBC News.

  • TRANSCRIPT START

  • HOLT: Good evening from Hofstra University in Hempstead, New York. I'm Lester Holt, anchor

  • of "NBC Nightly News." I want to welcome you to the first presidential debate.

  • The participants tonight are Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. This debate is sponsored

  • by the Commission on Presidential Debates, a nonpartisan, nonprofit organization. The

  • commission drafted tonight's format, and the rules have been agreed to by the campaigns.

  • The 90-minute debate is divided into six segments, each 15 minutes long. We'll explore three

  • topic areas tonight: Achieving prosperity; America's direction; and securing America.

  • At the start of each segment, I will ask the same lead-off question to both candidates,

  • and they will each have up to two minutes to respond. From that point until the end

  • of the segment, we'll have an open discussion.

  • The questions are mine and have not been shared with the commission or the campaigns. The

  • audience here in the room has agreed to remain silent so that we can focus on what the candidates

  • are saying.

  • I will invite you to applaud, however, at this moment, as we welcome the candidates:

  • Democratic nominee for president of the United States, Hillary Clinton, and Republican nominee

  • for president of the United States, Donald J. Trump.

  • (APPLAUSE)

  • CLINTON: How are you, Donald?

  • (APPLAUSE)

  • HOLT: Good luck to you.

  • (APPLAUSE)

  • Well, I don't expect us to cover all the issues of this campaign tonight, but I remind everyone,

  • there are two more presidential debates scheduled. We are going to focus on many of the issues

  • that voters tell us are most important, and we're going to press for specifics. I am honored

  • to have this role, but this evening belongs to the candidates and, just as important,

  • to the American people.

  • Candidates, we look forward to hearing you articulate your policies and your positions,

  • as well as your visions and your values. So, let's begin.

  • We're calling this opening segment "Achieving Prosperity." And central to that is jobs.

  • There are two economic realities in America today. There's been a record six straight

  • years of job growth, and new census numbers show incomes have increased at a record rate

  • after years of stagnation. However, income inequality remains significant, and nearly

  • half of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck.

  • Beginning with you, Secretary Clinton, why are you a better choice than your opponent

  • to create the kinds of jobs that will put more money into the pockets of American works?

  • CLINTON: Well, thank you, Lester, and thanks to Hofstra for hosting us.

  • The central question in this election is really what kind of country we want to be and what

  • kind of future we'll build together. Today is my granddaughter's second birthday, so

  • I think about this a lot. First, we have to build an economy that works for everyone,

  • not just those at the top. That means we need new jobs, good jobs, with rising incomes.

  • I want us to invest in you. I want us to invest in your future. That means jobs in infrastructure,

  • in advanced manufacturing, innovation and technology, clean, renewable energy, and small

  • business, because most of the new jobs will come from small business. We also have to

  • make the economy fairer. That starts with raising the national minimum wage and also

  • guarantee, finally, equal pay for women's work.

  • CLINTON: I also want to see more companies do profit-sharing. If you help create the

  • profits, you should be able to share in them, not just the executives at the top.

  • And I want us to do more to support people who are struggling to balance family and work.

  • I've heard from so many of you about the difficult choices you face and the stresses that you're

  • under. So let's have paid family leave, earned sick days. Let's be sure we have affordable

  • child care and debt-free college.

  • How are we going to do it? We're going to do it by having the wealthy pay their fair

  • share and close the corporate loopholes.

  • Finally, we tonight are on the stage together, Donald Trump and I. Donald, it's good to be

  • with you. We're going to have a debate where we are talking about the important issues

  • facing our country. You have to judge us, who can shoulder the immense, awesome responsibilities

  • of the presidency, who can put into action the plans that will make your life better.

  • I hope that I will be able to earn your vote on November 8th.

  • HOLT: Secretary Clinton, thank you.

  • Mr. Trump, the same question to you. It's about putting money -- more money into the

  • pockets of American workers. You have up to two minutes.

  • TRUMP: 21:08:32 Thank you, Lester. Our jobs are fleeing the country. They're going to

  • Mexico. They're going to many other countries. You look at what China is doing to our country

  • in terms of making our product. They're devaluing their currency, and there's nobody in our

  • government to fight them. And we have a very good fight. And we have a winning fight. Because

  • they're using our country as a piggy bank to rebuild China, and many other countries

  • are doing the same thing.

  • So we're losing our good jobs, so many of them. When you look at what's happening in

  • Mexico, a friend of mine who builds plants said it's the eighth wonder of the world.

  • They're building some of the biggest plants anywhere in the world, some of the most sophisticated,

  • some of the best plants. With the United States, as he said, not so much.

  • So Ford is leaving. You see that, their small car division leaving. Thousands of jobs leaving

  • Michigan, leaving Ohio. They're all leaving. And we can't allow it to happen anymore. As

  • far as child care is concerned and so many other things, I think Hillary and I agree

  • on that. We probably disagree a little bit as to numbers and amounts and what we're going

  • to do, but perhaps we'll be talking about that later.

  • But we have to stop our jobs from being stolen from us. We have to stop our companies from

  • leaving the United States and, with it, firing all of their people. All you have to do is

  • take a look at Carrier air conditioning in Indianapolis. They left -- fired 1,400 people.

  • They're going to Mexico. So many hundreds and hundreds of companies are doing this.

  • TRUMP: We cannot let it happen. Under my plan, I'll be reducing taxes tremendously, from

  • 35 percent to 15 percent for companies, small and big businesses. That's going to be a job

  • creator like we haven't seen since Ronald Reagan. It's going to be a beautiful thing

  • to watch.

  • Companies will come. They will build. They will expand. New companies will start. And

  • I look very, very much forward to doing it. We have to renegotiate our trade deals, and

  • we have to stop these countries from stealing our companies and our jobs.

  • HOLT: Secretary Clinton, would you like to respond?

  • CLINTON: Well, I think that trade is an important issue. Of course, we are 5 percent of the

  • world's population; we have to trade with the other 95 percent. And we need to have

  • smart, fair trade deals.

  • We also, though, need to have a tax system that rewards work and not just financial transactions.

  • And the kind of plan that Donald has put forth would be trickle-down economics all over again.

  • In fact, it would be the most extreme version, the biggest tax cuts for the top percent of

  • the people in this country than we've ever had.

  • I call it trumped-up trickle-down, because that's exactly what it would be. That is not

  • how we grow the economy.

  • We just have a different view about what's best for growing the economy, how we make

  • investments that will actually produce jobs and rising incomes.

  • I think we come at it from somewhat different perspectives. I understand that. You know,

  • Donald was very fortunate in his life, and that's all to his benefit. He started his

  • business with $14 million, borrowed from his father, and he really believes that the more

  • you help wealthy people, the better off we'll be and that everything will work out from

  • there.

  • I don't buy that. I have a different experience. My father was a small-businessman. He worked

  • really hard. He printed drapery fabrics on long tables, where he pulled out those fabrics

  • and he went down with a silkscreen and dumped the paint in and took the squeegee and kept

  • going.

  • And so what I believe is the more we can do for the middle class, the more we can invest

  • in you, your education, your skills, your future, the better we will be off and the

  • better we'll grow. That's the kind of economy I want us to see again. 21:12:21

  • HOLT: Let me follow up with Mr. Trump, if you can. You've talked about creating 25 million

  • jobs, and you've promised to bring back millions of jobs for Americans. How are you going to

  • bring back the industries that have left this country for cheaper labor overseas? How, specifically,

  • are you going to tell American manufacturers that you have to come back?

  • TRUMP: Well, for one thing -- and before we start on that -- my father gave me a very

  • small loan in 1975, and I built it into a company that's worth many, many billions of

  • dollars, with some of the greatest assets in the world, and I say that only because

  • that's the kind of thinking that our country needs.

  • Our country's in deep trouble. We don't know what we're doing when it comes to devaluations

  • and all of these countries all over the world, especially China. They're the best, the best

  • ever at it. What they're doing to us is a very, very sad thing.

  • So we have to do that. We have to renegotiate our trade deals. And, Lester, they're taking

  • our jobs, they're giving incentives, they're doing things that, frankly, we don't do.

  • Let me give you the example of Mexico. They have a VAT tax. We're on a different system.

  • When we sell into Mexico, there's a tax. When they sell in -- automatic, 16 percent, approximately.

  • When they sell into us, there's no tax. It's a defective agreement. It's been defective

  • for a long time, many years, but the politicians haven't done anything about it.

  • Now, in all fairness to Secretary Clinton -- yes, is that OK? Good. I want you to be

  • very happy. It's very important to me.

  • But in all fairness to Secretary Clinton, when she started talking about this, it was

  • really very recently. She's been doing this for 30 years. And why hasn't she made the

  • agreements better? The NAFTA agreement is defective. Just because of the tax and many

  • other reasons, but just because of the fact...

  • HOLT: Let me interrupt just a moment, but...

  • TRUMP: Secretary Clinton and others, politicians, should have been doing this for years, not

  • right now, because of the fact that we've created a movement. They should have been

  • doing this for years. What's happened to our jobs and our country and our economy generally

  • is -- look, we owe $20 trillion. We cannot do it any longer, Lester.

  • HOLT: 21:14:28 Back to the question, though. How do you bring back -- specifically bring

  • back jobs, American manufacturers? How do you make them bring the jobs back?

  • TRUMP: Well, the first thing you do is don't let the jobs leave. The companies are leaving.

  • I could name, I mean, there are thousands of them. They're leaving, and they're leaving

  • in bigger numbers than ever.

  • And what you do is you say, fine, you want to go to Mexico or some other country, good

  • luck. We wish you a lot of luck. But if you think you're going to make your air conditioners

  • or your cars or your cookies or whatever you make and bring them into our country without

  • a tax, you're wrong.

  • And once you say you're going to have to tax them coming in, and our politicians never

  • do this, because they have special interests and the special interests want those companies

  • to leave, because in many cases, they own the companies. So what I'm saying is, we can

  • stop them from leaving. We have to stop them from leaving. And that's a big, big factor.

  • HOLT: Let me let Secretary Clinton get in here.

  • CLINTON: 21:15:19 Well, let's stop for a second and remember where we were eight years ago.

  • We had the worst financial crisis, the Great Recession, the worst since the 1930s. That

  • was in large part because of tax policies that slashed taxes on the wealthy, failed

  • to invest in the middle class, took their eyes off of Wall Street, and created a perfect

  • storm.

  • In fact, Donald was one of the people who rooted for the housing crisis. He said, back

  • in 2006, "Gee, I hope it does collapse, because then I can go in and buy some and make some

  • money." Well, it did collapse.

  • TRUMP: 21:16:02 That's called business, by the way.

  • CLINTON: Nine million people -- nine million people lost their jobs. Five million people

  • lost their homes. And $13 trillion in family wealth was wiped out.

  • Now, we have come back from that abyss. And it has not been easy. So we're now on the

  • precipice of having a potentially much better economy, but the last thing we need to do

  • is to go back to the policies that failed us in the first place.

  • Independent experts have looked at what I've proposed and looked at what Donald's proposed,

  • and basically they've said this, that if his tax plan, which would blow up the debt by

  • over $5 trillion and would in some instances disadvantage middle-class families compared

  • to the wealthy, were to go into effect, we would lose 3.5 million jobs and maybe have

  • another recession.

  • They've looked at my plans and they've said, OK, if we can do this, and I intend to get

  • it done, we will have 10 million more new jobs, because we will be making investments

  • where we can grow the economy. Take clean energy. Some country is going to be the clean-

  • energy superpower of the 21st century. Donald thinks that climate change is a hoax perpetrated

  • by the Chinese. I think it's real.

  • TRUMP: I did not. I did not. I do not say that.

  • CLINTON: I think science is real.

  • TRUMP: I do not say that.

  • CLINTON: And I think it's important that we grip this and deal with it, both at home and

  • abroad. And here's what we can do. We can deploy a half a billion more solar panels.

  • We can have enough clean energy to power every home. We can build a new modern electric grid.

  • That's a lot of jobs; that's a lot of new economic activity.

  • So I've tried to be very specific about what we can and should do, and I am determined

  • that we're going to get the economy really moving again, building on the progress we've

  • made over the last eight years, but never going back to what got us in trouble in the

  • first place.

  • HOLT: Mr. Trump?

  • TRUMP: She talks about solar panels. We invested in a solar company, our country. That was

  • a disaster. They lost plenty of money on that one.

  • Now, look, I'm a great believer in all forms of energy, but we're putting a lot of people

  • out of work. Our energy policies are a disaster. Our country is losing so much in terms of

  • energy, in terms of paying off our debt. You can't do what you're looking to do with $20

  • trillion in debt.

  • The Obama administration, from the time they've come in, is over 230 years' worth of debt,

  • and he's topped it. He's doubled it in a course of almost eight years, seven-and-a-half years,

  • to be semi- exact.

  • So I will tell you this. We have to do a much better job at keeping our jobs. And we have

  • to do a much better job at giving companies incentives to build new companies or to expand,

  • because they're not doing it.

  • 21:18:59 And all you have to do is look at Michigan and look at Ohio and look at all

  • of these places where so many of their jobs and their companies are just leaving, they're

  • gone.

  • And, Hillary, I'd just ask you this. You've been doing this for 30 years. Why are you

  • just thinking about these solutions right now? For 30 years, you've been doing it, and

  • now you're just starting to think of solutions.

  • CLINTON: Well, actually...

  • TRUMP: I will bring -- excuse me. I will bring back jobs. You can't bring back jobs.

  • CLINTON: Well, actually, I have thought about this quite a bit.

  • TRUMP: Yeah, for 30 years.

  • CLINTON: And I have -- well, not quite that long. I think my husband did a pretty good

  • job in the 1990s. I think a lot about what worked and how we can make it work again...

  • TRUMP: Well, he approved NAFTA...

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • CLINTON: ... million new jobs, a balanced budget...

  • TRUMP: He approved NAFTA, which is the single worst trade deal ever approved in this country.

  • CLINTON: Incomes went up for everybody. Manufacturing jobs went up also in the 1990s, if we're actually

  • going to look at the facts.

  • When I was in the Senate, I had a number of trade deals that came before me, and I held

  • them all to the same test. Will they create jobs in America? Will they raise incomes in

  • America? And are they good for our national security? Some of them I voted for. The biggest

  • one, a multinational one known as CAFTA, I voted against. And because I hold the same

  • standards as I look at all of these trade deals.

  • But let's not assume that trade is the only challenge we have in the economy. I think

  • it is a part of it, and I've said what I'm going to do. I'm going to have a special prosecutor.

  • We're going to enforce the trade deals we have, and we're going to hold people accountable.

  • When I was secretary of state, we actually increased American exports globally 30 percent.

  • We increased them to China 50 percent. So I know how to really work to get new jobs

  • and to get exports that helped to create more new jobs.

  • HOLT: Very quickly...

  • TRUMP: But you haven't done it in 30 years or 26 years or any number you want to...

  • CLINTON: Well, I've been a senator, Donald...

  • TRUMP: You haven't done it. You haven't done it.

  • CLINTON: And I have been a secretary of state...

  • TRUMP: Excuse me.

  • CLINTON: And I have done a lot...

  • TRUMP: Your husband signed NAFTA, which was one of the worst things that ever happened

  • to the manufacturing industry.

  • CLINTON: Well, that's your opinion. That is your opinion.

  • TRUMP: You go to New England, you go to Ohio, Pennsylvania, you go anywhere you want, Secretary

  • Clinton, and you will see devastation where manufacture is down 30, 40, sometimes 50 percent.

  • NAFTA is the worst trade deal maybe ever signed anywhere, but certainly ever signed in this

  • country.

  • And now you want to approve Trans-Pacific Partnership. You were totally in favor of

  • it. Then you heard what I was saying, how bad it is, and you said, I can't win that

  • debate. But you know that if you did win, you would approve that, and that will be almost

  • as bad as NAFTA. Nothing will ever top NAFTA.

  • CLINTON: Well, that is just not accurate. I was against it once it was finally negotiated

  • and the terms were laid out. I wrote about that in...

  • TRUMP: You called it the gold standard.

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • TRUMP: You called it the gold standard of trade deals. You said it's the finest deal

  • you've ever seen.

  • CLINTON: No.

  • TRUMP: And then you heard what I said about it, and all of a sudden you were against it.

  • CLINTON: Well, Donald, I know you live in your own reality, but that is not the facts.

  • The facts are -- I did say I hoped it would be a good deal, but when it was negotiated...

  • TRUMP: Not.

  • CLINTON: ... which I was not responsible for, I concluded it wasn't. I wrote about that

  • in my book...

  • TRUMP: So is it President Obama's fault?

  • CLINTON: ... before you even announced.

  • TRUMP: Is it President Obama's fault?

  • CLINTON: Look, there are differences...

  • TRUMP: Secretary, is it President Obama's fault?

  • CLINTON: There are...

  • TRUMP: Because he's pushing it.

  • CLINTON: There are different views about what's good for our country, our economy, and our

  • leadership in the world. And I think it's important to look at what we need to do to

  • get the economy going again. That's why I said new jobs with rising incomes, investments,

  • not in more tax cuts that would add $5 trillion to the debt.

  • TRUMP: But you have no plan.

  • CLINTON: But in -- oh, but I do.

  • TRUMP: Secretary, you have no plan.

  • CLINTON: In fact, I have written a book about it. It's called "Stronger Together." You can

  • pick it up tomorrow at a bookstore...

  • TRUMP: That's about all you've...

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • HOLT: Folks, we're going to...

  • CLINTON: ... or at an airport near you.

  • HOLT: We're going to move to...

  • CLINTON: But it's because I see this -- we need to have strong growth, fair growth, sustained

  • growth. We also have to look at how we help families balance the responsibilities at home

  • and the responsibilities at business.

  • So we have a very robust set of plans. And people have looked at both of our plans, have

  • concluded that mine would create 10 million jobs and yours would lose us 3.5 million jobs,

  • and explode the debt which would have a recession.

  • TRUMP: You are going to approve one of the biggest tax cuts in history. 21:23:20 You

  • are going to approve one of the biggest tax increases in history. You are going to drive

  • business out. Your regulations are a disaster, and you're going to increase regulations all

  • over the place.

  • And by the way, my tax cut is the biggest since Ronald Reagan. I'm very proud of it.

  • It will create tremendous numbers of new jobs. But regulations, you are going to regulate

  • these businesses out of existence.

  • When I go around -- Lester, I tell you this, I've been all over. And when I go around,

  • despite the tax cut, the thing -- the things that business as in people like the most is

  • the fact that I'm cutting regulation. You have regulations on top of regulations, and

  • new companies cannot form and old companies are going out of business. And you want to

  • increase the regulations and make them even worse.

  • I'm going to cut regulations. I'm going to cut taxes big league, and you're going to

  • raise taxes big league, end of story.

  • HOLT: Let me get you to pause right there, because we're going to move into -- we're

  • going to move into the next segment. We're going to talk taxes...

  • CLINTON: That can't -- that can't be left to stand.

  • HOLT: Please just take 30 seconds and then we're going to go on.

  • CLINTON: I kind of assumed that there would be a lot of these charges and claims, and

  • so...

  • TRUMP: Facts.

  • CLINTON: So we have taken the home page of my website, HillaryClinton.com, and we've

  • turned it into a fact-checker. So if you want to see in real-time what the facts are, please

  • go and take a look. Because what I have proposed...

  • TRUMP: And take a look at mine, also, and you'll see.

  • CLINTON: ... would not add a penny to the debt, and your plans would add $5 trillion

  • to the debt. What I have proposed would cut regulations and streamline them for small

  • businesses. What I have proposed would be paid for by raising taxes on the wealthy,

  • because they have made all the gains in the economy. And I think it's time that the wealthy

  • and corporations paid their fair share to support this country.

  • HOLT: Well, you just opened the next segment.

  • TRUMP: Well, could I just finish -- I think I...

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • HOLT: I'm going to give you a chance right here...

  • TRUMP: I think I should -- you go to her website, and you take a look at her website.

  • HOLT: ... with a new 15-minute segment...

  • TRUMP: She's going to raise taxes $1.3 trillion.

  • HOLT: Mr. Trump, I'm going to...

  • TRUMP: And look at her website. You know what? It's no difference than this. She's telling

  • us how to fight ISIS. Just go to her website. She tells you how to fight ISIS on her website.

  • I don't think General Douglas MacArthur would like that too much.

  • HOLT: The next segment, we're continuing...

  • CLINTON: Well, at least I have a plan to fight ISIS.

  • HOLT: ... achieving prosperity...

  • TRUMP: No, no, you're telling the enemy everything you want to do.

  • CLINTON: No, we're not. No, we're not.

  • TRUMP: See, you're telling the enemy everything you want to do. No wonder you've been fighting

  • -- no wonder you've been fighting ISIS your entire adult life.

  • CLINTON: That's a -- that's -- go to the -- please, fact checkers, get to work.

  • HOLT: OK, you are unpacking a lot here. And we're still on the issue of achieving prosperity.

  • And I want to talk about taxes. The fundamental difference between the two of you concerns

  • the wealthy.

  • Secretary Clinton, you're calling for a tax increase on the wealthiest Americans. I'd

  • like you to further defend that. And, Mr. Trump, you're calling for tax cuts for the

  • wealthy. I'd like you to defend that. And this next two-minute answer goes to you, Mr.

  • Trump.

  • TRUMP: Well, I'm really calling for major jobs, because the wealthy are going create

  • tremendous jobs. They're going to expand their companies. They're going to do a tremendous

  • job.

  • I'm getting rid of the carried interest provision. And if you really look, it's not a tax -- it's

  • really not a great thing for the wealthy. It's a great thing for the middle class. It's

  • a great thing for companies to expand.

  • And when these people are going to put billions and billions of dollars into companies, and

  • when they're going to bring $2.5 trillion back from overseas, where they can't bring

  • the money back, because politicians like Secretary Clinton won't allow them to bring the money

  • back, because the taxes are so onerous, and the bureaucratic red tape, so what -- is so

  • bad.

  • So what they're doing is they're leaving our country, and they're, believe it or not, leaving

  • because taxes are too high and because some of them have lots of money outside of our

  • country. And instead of bringing it back and putting the money to work, because they can't

  • work out a deal to -- and everybody agrees it should be brought back.

  • Instead of that, they're leaving our country to get their money, because they can't bring

  • their money back into our country, because of bureaucratic red tape, because they can't

  • get together. Because we have -- we have a president that can't sit them around a table

  • and get them to approve something.

  • And here's the thing. Republicans and Democrats agree that this should be done, $2.5 trillion.

  • I happen to think it's double that. It's probably $5 trillion that we can't bring into our country,

  • Lester. And with a little leadership, you'd get it in here very quickly, and it could

  • be put to use on the inner cities and lots of other things, and it would be beautiful.

  • But we have no leadership. And honestly, that starts with Secretary Clinton. 21:28:01

  • HOLT: All right. You have two minutes of the same question to defend tax increases on the

  • wealthiest Americans, Secretary Clinton.

  • CLINTON: I have a feeling that by, the end of this evening, I'm going to be blamed for

  • everything that's ever happened.

  • TRUMP: Why not?

  • CLINTON: Why not? Yeah, why not?

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • You know, just join the debate by saying more crazy things. Now, let me say this, it is

  • absolutely the case...

  • TRUMP: There's nothing crazy about not letting our companies bring their money back into

  • their country.

  • HOLT: This is -- this is Secretary Clinton's two minutes, please.

  • TRUMP: Yes.

  • CLINTON: Yeah, well, let's start the clock again, Lester. We've looked at your tax proposals.

  • I don't see changes in the corporate tax rates or the kinds of proposals you're referring

  • to that would cause the repatriation, bringing back of money that's stranded overseas. I

  • happen to support that.

  • TRUMP: Then you didn't read it.

  • CLINTON: I happen to -- I happen to support that in a way that will actually work to our

  • benefit. But when I look at what you have proposed, you have what is called now the

  • 21:29:01 Trump loophole, because it would so advantage you and the business you do.

  • You've proposed an approach that has a...

  • TRUMP: Who gave it that name? The first I've -- who gave it that name?

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • HOLT: Mr. Trump, this is Secretary Clinton's two minutes.

  • CLINTON: ... $4 billion tax benefit for your family. And when you look at what you are

  • proposing...

  • TRUMP: How much? How much for my family?

  • CLINTON: ... it is...

  • TRUMP: Lester, how much?

  • CLINTON: ... as I said, trumped-up trickle-down. Trickle-down did not work. It got us into

  • the mess we were in, in 2008 and 2009. Slashing taxes on the wealthy hasn't worked.

  • And a lot of really smart, wealthy people know that. And they are saying, hey, we need

  • to do more to make the contributions we should be making to rebuild the middle class.

  • CLINTON: I don't think top-down works in America. I think building the middle class, investing

  • in the middle class, making college debt-free so more young people can get their education,

  • helping people refinance their -- their debt from college at a lower rate. Those are the

  • kinds of things that will really boost the economy. Broad-based, inclusive growth is

  • what we need in America, not more advantages for people at the very top.

  • HOLT: Mr. Trump, we're...

  • TRUMP: Typical politician. All talk, no action. Sounds good, doesn't work. Never going to

  • happen. Our country is suffering because people like Secretary Clinton have made such bad

  • decisions in terms of our jobs and in terms of what's going on.

  • Now, look, we have the worst revival of an economy since the Great Depression. And believe

  • me: We're in a bubble right now. And the only thing that looks good is the stock market,

  • but if you raise interest rates even a little bit, that's going to come crashing down.

  • We are in a big, fat, ugly bubble. And we better be awfully careful. And we have a Fed

  • that's doing political things. This Janet Yellen of the Fed. The Fed is doing political

  • -- by keeping the interest rates at this level. And believe me: The day Obama goes off, and

  • he leaves, and goes out to the golf course for the rest of his life to play golf 21:31:00,

  • when they raise interest rates, you're going to see some very bad things happen, because

  • the Fed is not doing their job. The Fed is being more political than Secretary Clinton.

  • HOLT: Mr. Trump, we're talking about the burden that Americans have to pay, yet you have not

  • released your tax returns. And the reason nominees have released their returns for decades

  • is so that voters will know if their potential president owes money to -- who he owes it

  • to and any business conflicts. Don't Americans have a right to know if there are any conflicts

  • of interest?

  • TRUMP: I don't mind releasing -- I'm under a routine audit. And it'll be released. And

  • -- as soon as the audit's finished, it will be released.

  • But you will learn more about Donald Trump by going down to the federal elections, where

  • I filed a 104-page essentially financial statement of sorts, the forms that they have. It shows

  • income -- in fact, the income -- I just looked today -- the income is filed at $694 million

  • for this past year, $694 million. If you would have told me I was going to make that 15 or

  • 20 years ago, I would have been very surprised.

  • But that's the kind of thinking that our country needs. When we have a country that's doing

  • so badly, that's being ripped off by every single country in the world, it's the kind

  • of thinking that our country needs, because everybody -- Lester, we have a trade deficit

  • with all of the countries that we do business with, of almost $800 billion a year. You know

  • what that is? That means, who's negotiating these trade deals?

  • We have people that are political hacks negotiating our trade deals.

  • HOLT: The IRS says an audit...

  • TRUMP: Excuse me.

  • HOLT: ... of your taxes -- you're perfectly free to release your taxes during an audit.

  • And so the question, does the public's right to know outweigh your personal...

  • TRUMP: Well, I told you, I will release them as soon as the audit. Look, I've been under

  • audit almost for 15 years. 21:33:00 I know a lot of wealthy people that have never been

  • audited. I said, do you get audited? I get audited almost every year.

  • And in a way, I should be complaining. I'm not even complaining. I don't mind it. It's

  • almost become a way of life. I get audited by the IRS. But other people don't.

  • I will say this. We have a situation in this country that has to be taken care of. I will

  • release my tax returns -- against my lawyer's wishes -- when she releases her 33,000 e-mails

  • that have been deleted. As soon as she releases them, I will release.

  • (APPLAUSE)

  • I will release my tax returns. And that's against -- my lawyers, they say, "Don't do

  • it." I will tell you this. No -- in fact, watching shows, they're reading the papers.

  • Almost every lawyer says, you don't release your returns until the audit's complete. When

  • the audit's complete, I'll do it. But I would go against them if she releases her e-mails.

  • HOLT: So it's negotiable?

  • TRUMP: It's not negotiable, no. Let her release the e-mails. Why did she delete 33,000...

  • HOLT: Well, I'll let her answer that. But let me just admonish the audience one more

  • time. There was an agreement. We did ask you to be silent, so it would be helpful for us.

  • Secretary Clinton?

  • CLINTON: Well, I think you've seen another example of bait-and- switch here. For 40 years,

  • everyone running for president has released their tax returns. You can go and see nearly,

  • I think, 39, 40 years of our tax returns, but everyone has done it. We know the IRS

  • has made clear there is no prohibition on releasing it when you're under audit.

  • So you've got to ask yourself, why won't he release his tax returns? And I think there

  • may be a couple of reasons. First, maybe he's not as rich as he says he is. Second, maybe

  • he's not as charitable as he claims to be.

  • CLINTON: Third, we don't know all of his business dealings, but we have been told through investigative

  • reporting that he owes about $650 million to Wall Street and foreign banks. Or maybe

  • he doesn't want the American people, all of you watching tonight, to know that he's paid

  • nothing in federal taxes, because the only years that anybody's ever seen were a couple

  • of years when he had to turn them over to state authorities when he was trying to get

  • a casino license, and they showed he didn't pay any federal income tax.

  • 21:35:27 TRUMP: That makes me smart.

  • CLINTON: So if he's paid zero, that means zero for troops, zero for vets, zero for schools

  • or health. And I think probably he's not all that enthusiastic about having the rest of

  • our country see what the real reasons are, because it must be something really important,

  • even terrible, that he's trying to hide.

  • And the financial disclosure statements, they don't give you the tax rate. They don't give

  • you all the details that tax returns would. And it just seems to me that this is something

  • that the American people deserve to see. And I have no reason to believe that he's ever

  • going to release his tax returns, because there's something he's hiding.

  • And we'll guess. We'll keep guessing at what it might be that he's hiding. But I think

  • the question is, were he ever to get near the White House, what would be those conflicts?

  • Who does he owe money to? Well, he owes you the answers to that, and he should provide

  • them.

  • HOLT: He also -- he also raised the issue of your e-mails. Do you want to respond to

  • that?

  • CLINTON: I do. You know, I made a mistake using a private e- mail. TRUMP: That's for

  • sure.

  • CLINTON: And if I had to do it over again, I would, obviously, do it differently. But

  • I'm not going to make any excuses. It was a mistake, and I take responsibility for that.

  • HOLT: Mr. Trump?

  • TRUMP: That was more than a mistake. That was done purposely. OK? That was not a mistake.

  • That was done purposely. When you have your staff taking the Fifth Amendment, taking the

  • Fifth so they're not prosecuted, when you have the man that set up the illegal server

  • taking the Fifth, I think it's disgraceful. And believe me, this country thinks it's -- really

  • thinks it's disgraceful, also.

  • As far as my tax returns, you don't learn that much from tax returns. That I can tell

  • you. You learn a lot from financial disclosure. And you should go down and take a look at

  • that.

  • The other thing, I'm extremely underleveraged. The report that said $650 -- which, by the

  • way, a lot of friends of mine that know my business say, boy, that's really not a lot

  • of money. It's not a lot of money relative to what I had.

  • The buildings that were in question, they said in the same report, which was -- actually,

  • it wasn't even a bad story, to be honest with you, but the buildings are worth $3.9 billion.

  • And the $650 isn't even on that. But it's not $650. It's much less than that.

  • But I could give you a list of banks, I would -- if that would help you, I would give you

  • a list of banks. These are very fine institutions, very fine banks. I could do that very quickly.

  • I am very underleveraged. I have a great company. I have a tremendous income. And the reason

  • I say that is not in a braggadocios way. It's because it's about time that this country

  • had somebody running it that has an idea about money.

  • When we have $20 trillion in debt, and our country's a mess, you know, it's one thing

  • to have $20 trillion in debt and our roads are good and our bridges are good and everything's

  • in great shape, our airports. 21:38:25 Our airports are like from a third world country.

  • You land at LaGuardia, you land at Kennedy, you land at LAX, you land at Newark, and you

  • come in from Dubai and Qatar and you see these incredible -- you come in from China, you

  • see these incredible airports, and you land -- we've become a third world country.

  • So the worst of all things has happened. We owe $20 trillion, and we're a mess. We haven't

  • even started. And we've spent $6 trillion in the Middle East, according to a report

  • that I just saw. Whether it's 6 or 5, but it looks like it's 6, $6 trillion in the Middle

  • East, we could have rebuilt our country twice.

  • And it's really a shame. And it's politicians like Secretary Clinton that have caused this

  • problem. Our country has tremendous problems. We're a debtor nation. We're a serious debtor

  • nation. And we have a country that needs new roads, new tunnels, new bridges, new airports,

  • new schools, new hospitals. And we don't have the money, because it's been squandered on

  • so many of your ideas.

  • HOLT: We'll let you respond and we'll move on to the next segment.

  • CLINTON: And maybe because you haven't paid any federal income tax for a lot of years.

  • (APPLAUSE)

  • And the other thing I think is important...

  • TRUMP: It would be squandered, too, believe me.

  • CLINTON: ... is if your -- if your main claim to be president of the United States is your

  • business, then I think we should talk about that. You know, your campaign manager said

  • that you built a lot of businesses on the backs of little guys.

  • And, indeed, I have met a lot of the people who were stiffed by you and your businesses,

  • Donald. I've met dishwashers, painters, architects, glass installers, marble installers, drapery

  • installers, like my dad was, who you refused to pay when they finished the work that you

  • asked them to do.

  • We have an architect in the audience who designed one of your clubhouses at one of your golf

  • courses. It's a beautiful facility. It immediately was put to use. And you wouldn't pay what

  • the man needed to be paid, what he was charging you to do...

  • TRUMP: Maybe he didn't do a good job and I was unsatisfied with his work...

  • CLINTON: Well, to...

  • TRUMP: Which our country should do, too.

  • CLINTON: Do the thousands of people that you have stiffed over the course of your business

  • not deserve some kind of apology from someone who has taken their labor, taken the goods

  • that they produced, and then refused to pay them?

  • 21:40 I can only say that I'm certainly relieved that my late father never did business with

  • you. He provided a good middle-class life for us, but the people he worked for, he expected

  • the bargain to be kept on both sides.

  • And when we talk about your business, you've taken business bankruptcy six times. There

  • are a lot of great businesspeople that have never taken bankruptcy once. You call yourself

  • the King of Debt. You talk about leverage. You even at one time suggested that you would

  • try to negotiate down the national debt of the United States.

  • TRUMP: Wrong. Wrong.

  • CLINTON: Well, sometimes there's not a direct transfer of skills from business to government,

  • but sometimes what happened in business would be really bad for government.

  • HOLT: Let's let Mr. Trump...

  • CLINTON: And we need to be very clear about that.

  • TRUMP: So, yeah, I think -- I do think it's time. Look, it's all words, it's all sound

  • bites. I built an unbelievable company. Some of the greatest assets anywhere in the world,

  • real estate assets anywhere in the world, beyond the United States, in Europe, lots

  • of different places. It's an unbelievable company.

  • But on occasion, four times, we used certain laws that are there. And when Secretary Clinton

  • talks about people that didn't get paid, first of all, they did get paid a lot, but taken

  • advantage of the laws of the nation.

  • Now, if you want to change the laws, you've been there a long time, change the laws. But

  • I take advantage of the laws of the nation because I'm running a company. My obligation

  • right now is to do well for myself, my family, my employees, for my companies. And that's

  • what I do.

  • But what she doesn't say is that tens of thousands of people that are unbelievably happy and

  • that love me. I'll give you an example. We're just opening up on Pennsylvania Avenue right

  • next to the White House, so if I don't get there one way, I'm going to get to Pennsylvania

  • Avenue another.

  • But we're opening the Old Post Office. Under budget, ahead of schedule, saved tremendous

  • money. I'm a year ahead of schedule. And that's what this country should be doing.

  • We build roads and they cost two and three and four times what they're supposed to cost.

  • We buy products for our military and they come in at costs that are so far above what

  • they were supposed to be, because we don't have people that know what they're doing.

  • When we look at the budget, the budget is bad to a large extent because we have people

  • that have no idea as to what to do and how to buy. The Trump International is way under

  • budget and way ahead of schedule. And we should be able to do that for our country.

  • HOLT: Well, we're well behind schedule, so I want to move to our next segment. We move

  • into our next segment talking about America's direction. And let's start by talking about

  • race.

  • The share of Americans who say race relations are bad in this country is the highest it's

  • been in decades, much of it amplified by shootings of African-Americans by police, as we've seen

  • recently in Charlotte and Tulsa. Race has been a big issue in this campaign, and one

  • of you is going to have to bridge a very wide and bitter gap.

  • So how do you heal the divide? Secretary Clinton, you get two minutes on this.

  • CLINTON: Well, you're right. Race remains a significant challenge in our country. Unfortunately,

  • race still determines too much, often determines where people live, determines what kind of

  • education in their public schools they can get, and, yes, it determines how they're treated

  • in the criminal justice system. We've just seen those two tragic examples in both Tulsa

  • and Charlotte.

  • And we've got to do several things at the same time. We have to restore trust between

  • communities and the police. We have to work to make sure that our police are using the

  • best training, the best techniques, that they're well prepared to use force only when necessary.

  • Everyone should be respected by the law, and everyone should respect the law.

  • CLINTON: Right now, that's not the case in a lot of our neighborhoods. So I have, ever

  • since the first day of my campaign, called for criminal justice reform. I've laid out

  • a platform that I think would begin to remedy some of the problems we have in the criminal

  • justice system.

  • But we also have to recognize, in addition to the challenges that we face with policing,

  • 21:45:35 there are so many good, brave police officers who equally want reform. So we have

  • to bring communities together in order to begin working on that as a mutual goal. And

  • we've got to get guns out of the hands of people who should not have them.

  • The gun epidemic is the leading cause of death of young African- American men, more than

  • the next nine causes put together. So we have to do two things, as I said. We have to restore

  • trust. We have to work with the police. We have to make sure they respect the communities

  • and the communities respect them. And we have to tackle the plague of gun violence, which

  • is a big contributor to a lot of the problems that we're seeing today.

  • HOLT: All right, Mr. Trump, you have two minutes. How do you heal the divide?

  • TRUMP: Well, first of all, Secretary Clinton doesn't want to use a couple of words, and

  • that's law and order. And we need law and order. If we don't have it, we're not going

  • to have a country.

  • And when I look at what's going on in Charlotte, a city I love, a city where I have investments,

  • when I look at what's going on throughout various parts of our country, whether it's

  • -- I mean, I can just keep naming them all day long -- we need law and order in our country.

  • I just got today the, as you know, the endorsement of the Fraternal Order of Police, we just

  • -- just came in. We have endorsements from, I think, almost every police group, very -- I

  • mean, a large percentage of them in the United States.

  • We have a situation where we have our inner cities, African- Americans, Hispanics are

  • living in hell because it's so dangerous. You walk down the street, you get shot.

  • 21:47:17 In Chicago, they've had thousands of shootings, thousands since January 1st.

  • Thousands of shootings. And I'm saying, where is this? Is this a war-torn country? What

  • are we doing? And we have to stop the violence. We have to bring back law and order. In a

  • place like Chicago, where thousands of people have been killed, thousands over the last

  • number of years, in fact, almost 4,000 have been killed since Barack Obama became president,

  • over -- almost 4,000 people in Chicago have been killed. We have to bring back law and

  • order.

  • Now, whether or not in a place like Chicago you do stop and frisk, which worked very well,

  • Mayor Giuliani is here, worked very well in New York. It brought the crime rate way down.

  • But you take the gun away from criminals that shouldn't be having it.

  • We have gangs roaming the street. And in many cases, they're illegally here, illegal immigrants.

  • And they have guns. And they shoot people. And we have to be very strong. And we have

  • to be very vigilant.

  • We have to be -- we have to know what we're doing. Right now, our police, in many cases,

  • are afraid to do anything. We have to protect our inner cities, because African-American

  • communities are being decimated by crime, decimated.

  • HOLT: Your two -- your two minutes expired, but I do want to follow up. 21:48:38 Stop-and-frisk

  • was ruled unconstitutional in New York, because it largely singled out black and Hispanic

  • young men.

  • TRUMP: No, you're wrong. It went before a judge, who was a very against-police judge.

  • It was taken away from her. And our mayor, our new mayor, refused to go forward with

  • the case. They would have won an appeal. If you look at it, throughout the country, there

  • are many places where it's allowed.

  • HOLT: The argument is that it's a form of racial profiling.

  • TRUMP: No, the argument is that we have to take the guns away from these people that

  • have them and they are bad people that shouldn't have them.

  • These are felons. These are people that are bad people that shouldn't be -- 21:49:18 when

  • you have 3,000 shootings in Chicago from January 1st, when you have 4,000 people killed in

  • Chicago by guns, from the beginning of the presidency of Barack Obama, his hometown,

  • you have to have stop-and-frisk.

  • You need more police. You need a better community, you know, relation. You don't have good community

  • relations in Chicago. It's terrible. I have property there. It's terrible what's going

  • on in Chicago.

  • But when you look -- and Chicago's not the only -- you go to Ferguson, you go to so many

  • different places. You need better relationships. I agree with Secretary Clinton on this.

  • TRUMP: You need better relationships between the communities and the police, because in

  • some cases, it's not good.

  • But you look at Dallas, where the relationships were really studied, the relationships were

  • really a beautiful thing, and then five police officers were killed one night very violently.

  • So there's some bad things going on. Some really bad things.

  • HOLT: Secretary Clinton...

  • TRUMP: But we need -- Lester, we need law and order. And we need law and order in the

  • inner cities, because the people that are most affected by what's happening are African-American

  • and Hispanic people. And it's very unfair to them what our politicians are allowing

  • to happen.

  • HOLT: Secretary Clinton?

  • CLINTON: 21:50:36 Well, I've heard -- I've heard Donald say this at his rallies, and

  • it's really unfortunate that he paints such a dire negative picture of black communities

  • in our country.

  • TRUMP: Ugh.

  • CLINTON: You know, the vibrancy of the black church, the black businesses that employ so

  • many people, the opportunities that so many families are working to provide for their

  • kids. There's a lot that we should be proud of and we should be supporting and lifting

  • up.

  • But we do always have to make sure we keep people safe. There are the right ways of doing

  • it, and then there are ways that are ineffective. Stop-and-frisk was found to be unconstitutional

  • and, in part, because it was ineffective. It did not do what it needed to do.

  • Now, I believe in community policing. And, in fact, violent crime is one-half of what

  • it was in 1991. Property crime is down 40 percent. We just don't want to see it creep

  • back up. We've had 25 years of very good cooperation.

  • But there were some problems, some unintended consequences. Too many young African-American

  • and Latino men ended up in jail for nonviolent offenses. And it's just a fact that if you're

  • a young African-American man and you do the same thing as a young white man, you are more

  • likely to be arrested, charged, convicted, and incarcerated. So we've got to address

  • the systemic racism in our criminal justice system. 21:52:20 We cannot just say law and

  • order. We have to say -- we have to come forward with a plan that is going to divert people

  • from the criminal justice system, deal with mandatory minimum sentences, which have put

  • too many people away for too long for doing too little.

  • We need to have more second chance programs. I'm glad that we're ending private prisons

  • in the federal system; I want to see them ended in the state system. You shouldn't have

  • a profit motivation to fill prison cells with young Americans. So there are some positive

  • ways we can work on this.

  • And I believe strongly that commonsense gun safety measures would assist us. Right now

  • -- and this is something Donald has supported, along with the gun lobby -- right now, we've

  • got too many military- style weapons on the streets. In a lot of places, our police are

  • outgunned. We need comprehensive background checks, and we need to keep guns out of the

  • hands of those who will do harm.

  • And we finally need to pass a prohibition on anyone who's on the terrorist watch list

  • from being able to buy a gun in our country. 21:53:39 If you're too dangerous to fly, you

  • are too dangerous to buy a gun. So there are things we can do, and we ought to do it in

  • a bipartisan way.

  • HOLT: Secretary Clinton, last week, you said we've got to do everything possible to improve

  • policing, to go right at implicit bias. 21:53:50 Do you believe that police are implicitly

  • biased against black people?

  • CLINTON: Lester, I think implicit bias is a problem for everyone, not just police. I

  • think, unfortunately, too many of us in our great country jump to conclusions about each

  • other. And therefore, I think we need all of us to be asking hard questions about, you

  • know, why am I feeling this way?

  • But when it comes to policing, since it can have literally fatal consequences, I have

  • said, in my first budget, we would put money into that budget to help us deal with implicit

  • bias by retraining a lot of our police officers.

  • I've met with a group of very distinguished, experienced police chiefs a few weeks ago.

  • They admit it's an issue. They've got a lot of concerns. 21:54:38 Mental health is one

  • of the biggest concerns, because now police are having to handle a lot of really difficult

  • mental health problems on the street.

  • They want support, they want more training, they want more assistance. And I think the

  • federal government could be in a position where we would offer and provide that.

  • HOLT: Mr. Trump...

  • TRUMP: I'd like to respond to that.

  • HOLT: Please.

  • TRUMP: First of all, I agree, and a lot of people even within my own party want to give

  • certain rights to people on watch lists and no- fly lists. I agree with you. When a person

  • is on a watch list or a no-fly list, and I have the endorsement of the NRA, which I'm

  • very proud of. These are very, very good people, and they're protecting the Second Amendment.

  • But I think we have to look very strongly at no-fly lists and watch lists. And when

  • people are on there, even if they shouldn't be on there, we'll help them, we'll help them

  • legally, we'll help them get off. But I tend to agree with that quite strongly.

  • I do want to bring up the fact that you were the one that brought up the words 21:55:33

  • super-predator about young black youth. And that's a term that I think was a -- it's -- it's

  • been horribly met, as you know. I think you've apologized for it. But I think it was a terrible

  • thing to say.

  • And when it comes to stop-and-frisk, you know, you're talking about takes guns away. Well,

  • I'm talking about taking guns away from gangs and people that use them. And I don't think

  • -- I really don't think you disagree with me on this, if you want to know the truth.

  • I think maybe there's a political reason why you can't say it, but I really don't believe

  • -- in New York City, stop-and-frisk, we had 2,200 murders, and stop-and-frisk brought

  • it down to 500 murders. Five hundred murders is a lot of murders. It's hard to believe,

  • 500 is like supposed to be good?

  • But we went from 2,200 to 500. And it was continued on by Mayor Bloomberg. And it was

  • terminated by current mayor. But stop-and- frisk had a tremendous impact on the safety

  • of New York City. Tremendous beyond belief. So when you say it has no impact, it really

  • did. It had a very, very big impact.

  • CLINTON: Well, it's also fair to say, if we're going to talk about mayors, that under the

  • current mayor, crime has continued to drop, including murders. So there is...

  • TRUMP: No, you're wrong. You're wrong.

  • CLINTON: No, I'm not.

  • TRUMP: Murders are up. All right. You check it.

  • CLINTON: New York -- New York has done an excellent job. And I give credit -- I give

  • credit across the board going back two mayors, two police chiefs, because it has worked.

  • And other communities need to come together to do what will work, as well.

  • Look, one murder is too many. But it is important that we learn about what has been effective.

  • And not go to things that sound good that really did not have the kind of impact that

  • we would want. Who disagrees with keeping neighborhoods safe?

  • But let's also add, 21:57:30 no one should disagree about respecting the rights of young

  • men who live in those neighborhoods. And so we need to do a better job of working, again,

  • with the communities, faith communities, business communities, as well as the police to try

  • to deal with this problem.

  • HOLT: This conversation is about race. And so, Mr. Trump, I have to ask you for five...

  • TRUMP: I'd like to just respond, if I might.

  • HOLT: Please -- 20 seconds.

  • TRUMP: I'd just like to respond.

  • HOLT: Please respond, then I've got a quick follow-up for you.

  • TRUMP: I will. Look, the African-American community has been let down by our politicians.

  • They talk good around election time, like right now, and after the election, they said,

  • see ya later, I'll see you in four years.

  • The African-American community -- because -- look, the community within the inner cities

  • has been so badly treated. They've been abused and used in order to get votes by Democrat

  • politicians, because that's what it is. They've controlled these communities for up to 100

  • years.

  • HOLT: Mr. Trump, let me...

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • CLINTON: Well, I -- I do think...

  • TRUMP: And I will tell you, you look at the inner cities -- and I just left Detroit, and

  • I just left Philadelphia, and I just -- you know, you've seen me, I've been all over the

  • place. You decided to stay home, and that's OK. But I will tell you, I've been all over.

  • And I've met some of the greatest people I'll ever meet within these communities. And they

  • are very, very upset with what their politicians have told them and what their politicians

  • have done.

  • HOLT: Mr. Trump, I...

  • CLINTON: 21:58:53 I think -- I think -- I think Donald just criticized me for preparing

  • for this debate. And, yes, I did. And you know what else I prepared for? I prepared

  • to be president. 21:59:06 And I think that's a good thing.

  • (APPLAUSE)

  • HOLT: Mr. Trump, for five years, you perpetuated a false claim that the nation's first black

  • president was not a natural-born citizen. You questioned his legitimacy. In the last

  • couple of weeks, you acknowledged what most Americans have accepted for years: The president

  • was born in the United States. Can you tell us what took you so long?

  • TRUMP: I'll tell you very -- well, just very simple to say. Sidney Blumenthal works for

  • the campaign and close -- very close friend of Secretary Clinton. And her campaign manager,

  • Patti Doyle, went to -- during the campaign, her campaign against President Obama, fought

  • very hard. And you can go look it up, and you can check it out.

  • TRUMP: And if you look at CNN this past week, Patti Solis Doyle was on Wolf Blitzer saying

  • that this happened. Blumenthal sent McClatchy, highly respected reporter at McClatchy, to

  • Kenya to find out about it. They were pressing it very hard. She failed to get the birth

  • certificate.

  • When I got involved, I didn't fail. I got him to give the birth certificate. So I'm

  • satisfied with it. And I'll tell you why I'm satisfied with it.

  • HOLT: That was...

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • TRUMP: Because I want to get on to defeating ISIS, because I want to get on to creating

  • jobs, because I want to get on to having a strong border, because I want to get on to

  • things that are very important to me and that are very important to the country.

  • HOLT: I will let you respond. It's important. But I just want to get the answer here. The

  • birth certificate was produced in 2011. You've continued to tell the story and question the

  • president's legitimacy in 2012, '13, '14, '15...

  • TRUMP: Yeah.

  • HOLT: .... as recently as January. So the question is, what changed your mind?

  • TRUMP: Well, nobody was pressing it, nobody was caring much about it. I figured you'd

  • ask the question tonight, of course. But nobody was caring much about it. But I was the one

  • that got him to produce the birth certificate. And I think I did a good job.

  • Secretary Clinton also fought it. I mean, you know -- now, everybody in mainstream is

  • going to say, oh, that's not true. Look, it's true. Sidney Blumenthal sent a reporter -- you

  • just have to take a look at CNN, the last week, the interview with your former campaign

  • manager. And she was involved. But just like she can't bring back jobs, she can't produce.

  • HOLT: I'm sorry. I'm just going to follow up -- and I will let you respond to that,

  • because there's a lot there. But we're talking about racial healing in this segment. What

  • do you say to Americans, people of color who...

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • TRUMP: Well, it was very -- I say nothing. I say nothing, because I was able to get him

  • to produce it. He should have produced it a long time before. I say nothing.

  • But let me just tell you. When you talk about healing, I think that I've developed very,

  • very good relationships over the last little while with the African-American community.

  • I think you can see that.

  • And I feel that they really wanted me to come to that conclusion. And I think I did a great

  • job and a great service not only for the country, but even for the president, in getting him

  • to produce his birth certificate.

  • HOLT: Secretary Clinton?

  • CLINTON: Well, just listen to what you heard.

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • And clearly, as Donald just admitted, he knew he was going to stand on this debate stage,

  • and Lester Holt was going to be asking us questions, so he tried to put the whole racist

  • birther lie to bed.

  • But it can't be dismissed that easily. He has really started his political activity

  • based on this racist lie that our first black president was not an American citizen. There

  • was absolutely no evidence for it, but he persisted, he persisted year after year, because

  • some of his supporters, people that he was trying to bring into his fold, apparently

  • believed it or wanted to believe it.

  • But, remember, Donald started his career back in 1973 being sued by the Justice Department

  • for racial discrimination because 22:03:18 he would not rent apartments in one of his

  • developments to African-Americans, and he made sure that the people who worked for him

  • understood that was the policy. He actually was sued twice by the Justice Department.

  • So he has a long record of engaging in racist behavior. And the birther lie was a very hurtful

  • one. You know, Barack Obama is a man of great dignity. And I could tell how much it bothered

  • him and annoyed him that this was being touted and used against him.

  • But I like to remember what Michelle Obama said in her amazing speech at our Democratic

  • National Convention: When they go low, we go high. And Barack Obama went high, despite

  • Donald Trump's best efforts to bring him down.

  • HOLT: Mr. Trump, you can respond and we're going to move on to the next segment.

  • TRUMP: I would love to respond. First of all, I got to watch in preparing for this some

  • of your debates against Barack Obama. You treated him with terrible disrespect. And

  • I watched the way you talk now about how lovely everything is and how wonderful you are. It

  • doesn't work that way. You were after him, you were trying to -- you even sent out or

  • your campaign sent out pictures of him in a certain garb, very famous pictures. I don't

  • think you can deny that.

  • But just last week, your campaign manager said it was true. So when you tried to act

  • 22:04:42 holier than thou, it really doesn't work. It really doesn't.

  • Now, as far as the lawsuit, yes, when I was very young, I went into my father's company,

  • had a real estate company in Brooklyn and Queens, and we, along with many, many other

  • companies throughout the country -- it was a federal lawsuit -- were sued. We settled

  • the suit with zero -- with no admission of guilt. It was very easy to do.

  • TRUMP: I notice you bring that up a lot. And, you know, I also notice the very nasty commercials

  • that you do on me in so many different ways, which I don't do on you. Maybe I'm trying

  • to save the money.

  • But, frankly, I look -- I look at that, and I say, isn't that amazing? Because I settled

  • that lawsuit with no admission of guilt, but that was a lawsuit brought against many real

  • estate firms, and it's just one of those things.

  • I'll go one step further. In Palm Beach, Florida, tough community, a brilliant community, a

  • wealthy community, probably the wealthiest community there is in the world, I opened

  • a club, and really got great credit for it. No discrimination against African- Americans,

  • against Muslims, against anybody. And it's a tremendously successful club. And I'm so

  • glad I did it. And I have been given great credit for what I did. And I'm very, very

  • proud of it. And that's the way I feel. That is the true way I feel.

  • HOLT: Our next segment is called "Securing America." We want to start with a 21st century

  • war happening every day in this country. Our institutions are under cyber attack, and our

  • secrets are being stolen. So my question is, who's behind it? And how do we fight it?

  • Secretary Clinton, this answer goes to you.

  • CLINTON: Well, I think cyber security, cyber warfare will be one of the biggest challenges

  • facing the next president, because clearly we're facing at this point two different kinds

  • of adversaries. There are the independent hacking groups that do it mostly for commercial

  • reasons to try to steal information that they can use to make money.

  • 22:06:49 But increasingly, we are seeing cyber attacks coming from states, organs of states.

  • The most recent and troubling of these has been Russia. There's no doubt now that Russia

  • has used cyber attacks against all kinds of organizations in our country, and I am deeply

  • concerned about this. I know Donald's very praiseworthy of Vladimir Putin, but Putin

  • is playing a really...

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • CLINTON: ... tough, long game here. And one of the things he's done is to let loose cyber

  • attackers to hack into government files, to hack into personal files, hack into the Democratic

  • National Committee. And we recently have learned that, you know, that this is one of their

  • preferred methods of trying to wreak havoc and collect information. We need to make it

  • very clear -- whether it's Russia, China, Iran or anybody else -- the United States

  • has much greater capacity. And we are not going to sit idly by and permit state actors

  • to go after our information, our private-sector information or our public-sector information.

  • And we're going to have to make it clear that we don't want to use the kinds of tools that

  • we have. We don't want to engage in a different kind of warfare. But we will defend the citizens

  • of this country.

  • And the Russians need to understand that. I think they've been treating it as almost

  • a probing, how far would we go, how much would we do. And that's why I was so -- I was so

  • shocked when Donald publicly 22:08:41 invited Putin to hack into Americans. That is just

  • unacceptable. It's one of the reasons why 50 national security officials who served

  • in Republican information -- in administrations...

  • HOLT: Your two minutes have expired.

  • CLINTON: ... have said that Donald is unfit to be the commander- in-chief. It's comments

  • like that that really worry people who understand the threats that we face.

  • HOLT: Mr. Trump, you have two minutes and the same question. Who's behind it? And how

  • do we fight it?

  • TRUMP: I do want to say that I was just endorsed -- and more are coming next week -- it will

  • be over 200 admirals, many of them here -- admirals and generals endorsed me to lead this country.

  • That just happened, and many more are coming. And I'm very proud of it.

  • In addition, I was just endorsed by ICE. They've never endorsed anybody before on immigration.

  • I was just endorsed by ICE. I was just recently endorsed -- 16,500 Border Patrol agents.

  • So when Secretary Clinton talks about this, I mean, I'll take the admirals and I'll take

  • the generals any day over the political hacks that I see that have led our country so brilliantly

  • over the last 10 years with their knowledge. OK? Because look at the mess that we're in.

  • Look at the mess that we're in.

  • As far as the cyber, I agree to parts of what Secretary Clinton said. 22:09:52 We should

  • be better than anybody else, and perhaps we're not. I don't think anybody knows it was Russia

  • that broke into the DNC. She's saying Russia, Russia, Russia, but I don't -- maybe it was.

  • I mean, it could be Russia, but it could also be China. It could also be lots of other people.

  • It also could be somebody sitting on their bed that weighs 400 pounds, OK?

  • TRUMP: You don't know who broke in to DNC.

  • But what did we learn with DNC? We learned that 22:10:29 Bernie Sanders was taken advantage

  • of by your people, by Debbie Wasserman Schultz. Look what happened to her. But Bernie Sanders

  • was taken advantage of. That's what we learned.

  • Now, whether that was Russia, whether that was China, whether it was another country,

  • we don't know, because the truth is, under President Obama we've lost control of things

  • that we used to have control over.

  • We came in with the Internet, we came up with the Internet, and I think Secretary Clinton

  • and myself would agree very much, when you look at what ISIS is doing with the Internet,

  • they're beating us at our own game. ISIS.

  • So we have to get very, very tough on cyber and cyber warfare. It is -- it is a huge problem.

  • I have a son. He's 10 years old. He has computers. He is so good with these computers, it's unbelievable.

  • The security aspect of cyber is very, very tough. And maybe it's hardly doable.

  • But I will say, we are not doing the job we should be doing. But that's true throughout

  • our whole governmental society. We have so many things that we have to do better, Lester,

  • and certainly cyber is one of them.

  • HOLT: Secretary Clinton?

  • CLINTON: Well, I think there are a number of issues that we should be addressing. I

  • have put forth a plan to defeat ISIS. It does involve going after them online. I think we

  • need to do much more with our tech companies to prevent ISIS and their operatives from

  • being able to use the Internet to radicalize, even direct people in our country and Europe

  • and elsewhere.

  • But we also have to intensify our air strikes against ISIS and eventually support our Arab

  • and Kurdish partners to be able to actually take out ISIS in Raqqa, end their claim of

  • being a Caliphate.

  • We're making progress. Our military is assisting in Iraq. And we're hoping that within the

  • year we'll be able to push ISIS out of Iraq and then, you know, really squeeze them in

  • Syria.

  • But we have to be cognizant of the fact that they've had foreign fighters coming to volunteer

  • for them, foreign money, foreign weapons, 22:12:35 so we have to make this the top priority.

  • And I would also do everything possible to take out their leadership. I was involved

  • in a number of efforts to take out Al Qaida leadership when I was secretary of state,

  • including, of course, taking out bin Laden. And I think we need to go after Baghdadi,

  • as well, make that one of our organizing principles. Because we've got to defeat ISIS, and we've

  • got to do everything we can to disrupt their propaganda efforts online.

  • HOLT: You mention ISIS, and we think of ISIS certainly as over there, but there are American

  • citizens who have been inspired to commit acts of terror on American soil, the latest

  • incident, of course, the bombings we just saw in New York and New Jersey, the knife

  • attack at a mall in Minnesota, in the last year, deadly attacks in San Bernardino and

  • Orlando. I'll ask this to both of you. Tell us specifically how you would prevent homegrown

  • attacks by American citizens, Mr. Trump?

  • TRUMP: Well, first I have to say one thing, very important. 22:13:32 Secretary Clinton

  • is talking about taking out ISIS. "We will take out ISIS." Well, President Obama and

  • Secretary Clinton created a vacuum the way they got out of Iraq, because they got out

  • -- what, they shouldn't have been in, but once they got in, the way they got out was

  • a disaster. And ISIS was formed.

  • So she talks about taking them out. She's been doing it a long time. She's been trying

  • to take them out for a long time. But they wouldn't have even been formed if they left

  • some troops behind, like 10,000 or maybe something more than that. And then you wouldn't have

  • had them.

  • Or, as I've been saying for a long time, and I think you'll agree, because I said it to

  • you once, had we taken the oil -- and we should have taken the oil -- ISIS would not have

  • been able to form either, because the oil was their primary source of income. And now

  • they have the oil all over the place, including the oil -- a lot of the oil in Libya, which

  • was another one of her disasters.

  • HOLT: Secretary Clinton?

  • CLINTON: 22:14:31 Well, I hope the fact-checkers are turning up the volume and really working

  • hard. Donald supported the invasion of Iraq.

  • TRUMP: Wrong.

  • CLINTON: That is absolutely proved over and over again.

  • TRUMP: Wrong. Wrong.

  • CLINTON: He actually advocated for the actions we took in Libya and urged that Gadhafi be

  • taken out, after actually doing some business with him one time.

  • CLINTON: But the larger point -- and he says this constantly -- is George W. Bush made

  • the agreement about when American troops would leave Iraq, not Barack Obama.

  • And the only way that American troops could have stayed in Iraq is to get an agreement

  • from the then-Iraqi government that would have protected our troops, and the Iraqi government

  • would not give that.

  • But let's talk about the question you asked, Lester. The question you asked is, what do

  • we do here in the United States? That's the most important part of this. How do we prevent

  • attacks? How do we protect our people?

  • And I think we've got to have an intelligence surge, where we are looking for every scrap

  • of information. I was so proud of law enforcement in New York, in Minnesota, in New Jersey.

  • You know, they responded so quickly, so professionally to the attacks that occurred by Rahami. And

  • they brought him down. And we may find out more information because he is still alive,

  • which may prove to be an intelligence benefit.

  • So we've got to do everything we can to vacuum up intelligence from Europe, from the Middle

  • East. That means we've got to work more closely with our allies, and that's something that

  • Donald has been very dismissive of.

  • We're working with NATO, the longest military alliance in the history of the world, to really

  • turn our attention to terrorism. We're working with our friends in the Middle East, many

  • of which, as you know, are Muslim majority nations. Donald has consistently insulted

  • Muslims abroad, Muslims at home, when we need to be cooperating with Muslim nations and

  • with the American Muslim community.

  • They're on the front lines. They can provide information to us that we might not get anywhere

  • else. They need to have close working cooperation with law enforcement in these communities,

  • not be alienated and pushed away as some of Donald's rhetoric, unfortunately, has led

  • to.

  • HOLT: Mr. Trump...

  • TRUMP: Well, I have to respond.

  • HOLT: Please respond. TRUMP: The secretary said very strongly about working with -- we've

  • been working with them for many years, and we have the greatest mess anyone's ever seen.

  • You look at the Middle East, it's a total mess. Under your direction, to a large extent.

  • But you look at the Middle East, you started the Iran deal, that's another beauty where

  • you have a country that was ready to fall, I mean, they were doing so badly. They were

  • choking on the sanctions. And now they're going to be actually probably a major power

  • at some point pretty soon, the way they're going.

  • But when you look at NATO, I was asked on a major show, what do you think of NATO? And

  • you have to understand, I'm a businessperson. I did really well. But I have common sense.

  • And I said, well, I'll tell you. I haven't given lots of thought to NATO. But two things.

  • Number one, the 28 countries of NATO, many of them aren't paying their fair share. Number

  • two -- and that bothers me, because we should be asking -- we're defending them, and they

  • should at least be paying us what they're supposed to be paying by treaty and contract.

  • And, number two, I said, and very strongly, NATO could be obsolete, because -- and I was

  • very strong on this, and it was actually covered very accurately in the New York Times, which

  • is unusual for the New York Times, to be honest -- but I said, they do not focus on terror.

  • And I was very strong. And I said it numerous times.

  • And about four months ago, I read on the front page of the Wall Street Journal that NATO

  • is opening up a major terror division. And I think that's great. And I think we should

  • get -- because we pay approximately 73 percent of the cost of NATO. It's a lot of money to

  • protect other people. But I'm all for NATO. But I said they have to focus on terror, also.

  • And they're going to do that. And that was -- believe me -- I'm sure I'm not going to

  • get credit for it -- but that was largely because of what I was saying and my criticism

  • of NATO.

  • I think we have to get NATO to go into the Middle East with us, in addition to surrounding

  • nations, and we have to 22:19:03 knock the hell out of ISIS, and we have to do it fast,

  • when ISIS formed in this vacuum created by Barack Obama and Secretary Clinton. And believe

  • me, you were the ones that took out the troops. Not only that, you named the day. They couldn't

  • believe it. They sat back probably and said, I can't believe it. They said...

  • CLINTON: Lester, we've covered...

  • TRUMP: No, wait a minute.

  • CLINTON: We've covered this ground.

  • TRUMP: When they formed, when they formed, this is something that never should have happened.

  • It should have never happened. Now, you're talking about taking out ISIS. But you were

  • there, and you were secretary of state when it was a little infant. Now it's in over 30

  • countries. And you're going to stop them? I don't think so.

  • HOLT: Mr. Trump, a lot of these are judgment questions. You had supported the war in Iraq

  • before the invasion. What makes your...

  • TRUMP: I did not support the war in Iraq.

  • HOLT: In 2002...

  • TRUMP: That is a mainstream media nonsense put out by her, because she -- frankly, I

  • think the best person in her campaign is mainstream media.

  • HOLT: My question is, since you supported it...

  • TRUMP: Just -- would you like to hear...

  • HOLT: ... why is your -- why is your judgment...

  • TRUMP: Wait a minute. I was against the war in Iraq. Just so you put it out.

  • HOLT: The record shows otherwise, but why -- why was...

  • TRUMP: The record does not show that.

  • HOLT: Why was -- is your judgment any...

  • TRUMP: The record shows that I'm right. When I did an interview with Howard Stern, very

  • lightly, first time anyone's asked me that, I said, very lightly, I don't know, maybe,

  • who knows? Essentially. I then did an interview with Neil Cavuto. We talked about the economy

  • is more important. I then spoke to Sean Hannity, which everybody refuses to call Sean Hannity.

  • I had numerous conversations with Sean Hannity at Fox. And Sean Hannity said -- and he called

  • me the other day -- and I spoke to him about it -- he said you were totally against the

  • war, because he was for the war.

  • HOLT: Why is your judgment better than...

  • TRUMP: And when he -- excuse me. And that was before the war started. Sean Hannity said

  • very strongly to me and other people -- he's willing to say it, but nobody wants to call

  • him. I was against the war. He said, you used to have fights with me, because Sean was in

  • favor of the war.

  • And I understand that side, also, not very much, because we should have never been there.

  • But nobody called Sean Hannity. And then they did an article in a major magazine, shortly

  • after the war started. I think in '04. But they did an article which had me totally against

  • the war in Iraq.

  • And one of your compatriots said, you know, whether it was before or right after, Trump

  • was definitely -- because if you read this article, there's no doubt. But if somebody

  • -- and I'll ask the press -- if somebody would call up Sean Hannity, this was before the

  • war started. He and I used to have arguments about the war. I said, it's a terrible and

  • a stupid thing. It's going to destabilize the Middle East. And that's exactly what it's

  • done. It's been a disaster.

  • HOLT: My reference was to what you had said in 2002, and my question was...

  • TRUMP: No, no. You didn't hear what I said.

  • HOLT: Why is your judgment -- why is your judgment any different than Mrs. Clinton's

  • judgment?

  • TRUMP: 22:21:48 Well, I have much better judgment than she does. There's no question about that.

  • I also have a much better temperament than she has, you know?

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • I have a much better -- she spent -- let me tell you -- she spent hundreds of millions

  • of dollars on an advertising -- you know, they get Madison Avenue into a room, they

  • put names -- oh, temperament, let's go after -- I think my strongest asset, maybe by far,

  • is my temperament. I have a winning temperament. I know how to win. She does not have a...

  • HOLT: Secretary Clinton?

  • TRUMP: Wait. The AFL-CIO the other day, behind the blue screen, I don't know who you were

  • talking to, Secretary Clinton, but you were totally out of control. I said, there's a

  • person with a temperament that's got a problem.

  • HOLT: Secretary Clinton?

  • CLINTON: Whew, OK.

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • Let's talk about two important issues that were briefly mentioned by Donald, first, NATO.

  • You know, NATO as a military alliance has something called Article 5, and basically

  • it says this: An attack on one is an attack on all. And you know the only time it's ever

  • been invoked? After 9/11, when the 28 nations of NATO said that they would go to Afghanistan

  • with us to fight terrorism, something that they still are doing by our side.

  • With respect to Iran, when I became secretary of state, Iran was weeks away from having

  • enough nuclear material to form a bomb. They had mastered the nuclear fuel cycle under

  • the Bush administration. They had built covert facilities. They had stocked them with centrifuges

  • that were whirling away.

  • And we had sanctioned them. I voted for every sanction against Iran when I was in the Senate,

  • but it wasn't enough. So I spent a year-and-a-half putting together a coalition that included

  • Russia and China to impose the toughest sanctions on Iran.

  • And we did drive them to the negotiating table. And my successor, John Kerry, and President

  • Obama got a deal that put a lid on Iran's nuclear program without firing a single shot.

  • That's diplomacy. That's coalition-building. That's working with other nations.

  • The other day, I saw Donald saying that there were some Iranian sailors on a ship in the

  • waters off of Iran, and they were taunting American sailors who were on a nearby ship.

  • He said, you know, if they taunted our sailors, 22:24:28 I'd blow them out of the water and

  • start another war. That's not good judgment.

  • TRUMP: That would not start a war.

  • CLINTON: That is not the right temperament to be commander-in- chief, to be taunted.

  • And the worst part...

  • TRUMP: No, they were taunting us.

  • CLINTON: ... of what we heard Donald say has been about nuclear weapons. He has said repeatedly

  • that he didn't care if other nations got nuclear weapons, Japan, South Korea, even Saudi Arabia.

  • It has been the policy of the United States, Democrats and Republicans, to do everything

  • we could to reduce the proliferation of nuclear weapons. He even said, well, you know, if

  • there were nuclear war in East Asia, well, you know, that's fine...

  • TRUMP: Wrong.

  • CLINTON: ... have a good time, folks.

  • TRUMP: It's lies.

  • CLINTON: And, in fact, his 22:25:17 cavalier attitude about nuclear weapons is so deeply

  • troubling. That is the number-one threat we face in the world. And it becomes particularly

  • threatening if terrorists ever get their hands on any nuclear material. So a man who can

  • be provoked by a tweet should not have his fingers anywhere near the nuclear codes, as

  • far as I think anyone with any sense about this should be concerned.

  • TRUMP: That line's getting a little bit old, I must say. I would like to...

  • CLINTON: It's a good one, though. It well describes the problem.

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • TRUMP: It's not an accurate one at all. It's not an accurate one. So I just want to give

  • a lot of things -- and just to respond. I agree with her on one thing. The single greatest

  • problem the world has is nuclear armament, nuclear weapons, 22:26:04 not global warming,

  • like you think and your -- your president thinks.

  • Nuclear is the single greatest threat. Just to go down the list, we defend Japan, we defend

  • Germany, we defend South Korea, we defend Saudi Arabia, we defend countries. They do

  • not pay us. But they should be paying us, because we are providing tremendous service

  • and we're losing a fortune. That's why we're losing -- we're losing -- we lose on everything.

  • I say, who makes these -- we lose on everything. All I said, that it's very possible that if

  • they don't pay a fair share, because this isn't 40 years ago where we could do what

  • we're doing. We can't defend Japan, a behemoth, selling us cars by the million...

  • HOLT: We need to move on.

  • TRUMP: Well, wait, but it's very important. All I said was, they may have to defend themselves

  • or they have to help us out. We're a country that owes $20 trillion. They have to help

  • us out.

  • HOLT: Our last...

  • TRUMP: As far as the nuclear is concerned, I agree. It is the single greatest threat

  • that this country has.

  • HOLT: Which leads to my next question, as we enter our last segment here (inaudible)

  • the subject of securing America. On nuclear weapons, President Obama reportedly considered

  • changing the nation's longstanding policy on first use. Do you support the current policy?

  • Mr. Trump, you have two minutes on that.

  • TRUMP: Well, I have to say that, you know, for what Secretary Clinton was saying about

  • nuclear with Russia, she's very cavalier in the way she talks about various countries.

  • But Russia has been expanding their -- they have a much newer capability than we do. We

  • have not been updating from the new standpoint.

  • I looked the other night. I was seeing B-52s, they're old enough that your father, your

  • grandfather could be flying them. We are not -- we are not keeping up with other countries.

  • I would like everybody to end it, just get rid of it. But I would certainly not do first

  • strike.

  • I think that once the nuclear alternative happens, it's over. At the same time, we have

  • to be prepared. I can't take anything off the table. Because you look at some of these

  • countries, you look at North Korea, we're doing nothing there. China should solve that

  • problem for us. 22:28:09 China should go into North Korea. China is totally powerful as

  • it relates to North Korea.

  • And by the way, another one powerful is the worst deal I think I've ever seen negotiated

  • that you started is the Iran deal. Iran is one of their biggest trading partners. Iran

  • has power over North Korea.

  • And when they made that horrible deal with Iran, they should have included the fact that

  • they do something with respect to North Korea. And they should have done something with respect

  • to Yemen and all these other places.

  • And when asked to Secretary Kerry, why didn't you do that? Why didn't you add other things

  • into the deal? One of the great giveaways of all time, of all time, including $400 million

  • in cash. Nobody's ever seen that before. That turned out to be wrong. It was actually $1.7

  • billion in cash, obviously, I guess for the hostages. It certainly looks that way.

  • So you say to yourself, why didn't they make the right deal? This is one of the worst deals

  • ever made by any country in history. The deal with Iran will lead to nuclear problems. All

  • they have to do is sit back 10 years, and they don't have to do much.

  • HOLT: Your two minutes is expired.

  • TRUMP: And they're going to end up getting nuclear. I met with Bibi Netanyahu the other

  • day. Believe me, he's not a happy camper.

  • HOLT: All right. Mrs. Clinton, Secretary Clinton, you have two minutes.

  • CLINTON: 22:29:30 Well, let me -- let me start by saying, words matter. Words matter when

  • you run for president. And they really matter when you are president. And I want to reassure

  • our allies in Japan and South Korea and elsewhere that we have mutual defense treaties and we

  • will honor them.

  • It is essential that America's word be good. And so I know that this campaign has caused

  • some questioning and worries on the part of many leaders across the globe. I've talked

  • with a number of them. But I want to -- on behalf of myself, and I think on behalf of

  • a majority of the American people, say that, you know, our word is good.

  • It's also important that we look at the entire global situation. There's no doubt that we

  • have other problems with Iran. But personally, I'd rather deal with the other problems having

  • put that lid on their nuclear program than still to be facing that.

  • And Donald never tells you what he would do. Would he have started a war? Would he have

  • bombed Iran? If he's going to criticize a deal that has been very successful in giving

  • us access to Iranian facilities that we never had before, then he should tell us what his

  • alternative would be. But it's like his plan to defeat ISIS. He says it's a secret plan,

  • but the only secret is that he has no plan.

  • 22:31:04 So we need to be more precise in how we talk about these issues. People around

  • the word follow our presidential campaigns so closely, trying to get hints about what

  • we will do. Can they rely on us? Are we going to lead the world with strength and in accordance

  • with our values? That's what I intend to do. I intend to be a leader of our country that

  • people can count on, both here at home and around the world, to make decisions that will

  • further peace and prosperity, but also stand up to bullies, whether they're abroad or at

  • home.

  • We cannot let those who would try to destabilize the world to interfere with American interests

  • and security...

  • HOLT: Your two minutes is...

  • CLINTON: ... to be given any opportunities at all.

  • HOLT: ... is expired.

  • TRUMP: Lester, one thing I'd like to say.

  • HOLT: Very quickly. Twenty seconds.

  • TRUMP: I will go very quickly. But I will tell you that Hillary will tell you to go

  • to her website and read all about how to defeat ISIS, which she could have defeated by never

  • having it, you know, get going in the first place. Right now, it's getting tougher and

  • tougher to defeat them, because they're in more and more places, more and more states,

  • more and more nations.

  • HOLT: Mr. Trump...

  • TRUMP: And it's a big problem. And as far as Japan is concerned, I want to help all

  • of our allies, but we are losing billions and billions of dollars. We cannot be the

  • policemen of the world. We cannot protect countries all over the world...

  • HOLT: We have just...

  • TRUMP: ... where they're not paying us what we need.

  • HOLT: We have just a few final questions...

  • TRUMP: And she doesn't say that, because she's got no business ability. We need heart. We

  • need a lot of things. But you have to have some basic ability. And sadly, she doesn't

  • have that. All of the things that she's talking about could have been taken care of during

  • the last 10 years, let's say, while she had great power. But they weren't taken care of.

  • And if she ever wins this race, they won't be taken care of.

  • HOLT: Mr. Trump, this year Secretary Clinton became the 22:32:57 first woman nominated

  • for president by a major party. Earlier this month, you said she doesn't have, quote, "a

  • presidential look." She's standing here right now. What did you mean by that?

  • TRUMP: She doesn't have the look. She doesn't have the stamina. I said she doesn't have

  • the stamina. And I don't believe she does have the stamina. To be president of this

  • country, you need tremendous stamina.

  • HOLT: The quote was, "I just don't think she has the presidential look."

  • TRUMP: You have -- wait a minute. Wait a minute, Lester. You asked me a question. Did you ask

  • me a question?

  • You have to be able to negotiate our trade deals. You have to be able to negotiate, that's

  • right, with Japan, with Saudi Arabia. I mean, can you imagine, we're defending Saudi Arabia?

  • And with all of the money they have, we're defending them, and they're not paying? All

  • you have to do is speak to them. Wait. You have so many different things you have to

  • be able to do, and I don't believe that Hillary has the stamina.

  • HOLT: Let's let her respond.

  • CLINTON: 22:33:52 Well, as soon as he travels to 112 countries and negotiates a peace deal,

  • a cease-fire, a release of dissidents, an opening of new opportunities in nations around

  • the world, or even spends 11 hours testifying in front of a congressional committee, he

  • can talk to me about stamina.

  • (APPLAUSE)

  • TRUMP: The world -- let me tell you. Let me tell you. Hillary has experience, but it's

  • bad experience. We have made so many bad deals during the last -- so she's got experience,

  • that I agree.

  • (APPLAUSE)

  • But it's bad, bad experience. Whether it's the Iran deal that you're so in love with,

  • where we gave them $150 billion back, whether it's the Iran deal, whether it's anything

  • you can -- name -- you almost can't name a good deal. I agree. She's got experience,

  • but it's bad experience. And this country can't afford to have another four years of

  • that kind of experience.

  • HOLT: We are at -- we are at the final question.

  • (APPLAUSE)

  • CLINTON: Well, one thing. One thing, Lester.

  • HOLT: Very quickly, because we're at the final question now.

  • CLINTON: You know, he tried to switch from looks to stamina. But this is a man who has

  • called women pigs, slobs and dogs, and someone who has said pregnancy is an inconvenience

  • to employers, who has said...

  • TRUMP: I never said that.

  • CLINTON: .... women don't deserve equal pay unless they do as good a job as men.

  • TRUMP: I didn't say that.

  • CLINTON: And one of the worst things he said was about a woman in a beauty contest. He

  • loves beauty contests, supporting them and hanging around them. And he called this woman

  • 22:35:35 "Miss Piggy." Then he called her "Miss Housekeeping," because she was Latina.

  • Donald, she has a name.

  • TRUMP: Where did you find this? Where did you find this?

  • CLINTON: Her name is Alicia Machado.

  • TRUMP: Where did you find this?

  • CLINTON: And she has become a U.S. citizen, and you can bet...

  • TRUMP: Oh, really? CLINTON: ... she's going to vote this November.

  • TRUMP: OK, good. Let me just tell you...

  • (APPLAUSE)

  • HOLT: Mr. Trump, could we just take 10 seconds and then we ask the final question...

  • TRUMP: You know, Hillary is hitting me with tremendous commercials. Some of it's said

  • in entertainment. Some of it's said -- somebody who's been very vicious to me, Rosie O'Donnell,

  • I said very tough things to her, and I think everybody would agree that she deserves it

  • and nobody feels sorry for her.

  • But you want to know the truth? I was going to say something...

  • HOLT: Please very quickly.

  • TRUMP: ... extremely rough to Hillary, to her family, and I said to myself, "I can't

  • do it. I just can't do it. It's inappropriate. It's not nice." But she spent hundreds of

  • millions of dollars on negative ads on me, many of which are absolutely untrue. They're

  • untrue. And they're misrepresentations.

  • And I will tell you this, Lester: It's not nice. And I don't deserve that.

  • 22:36:42 But it's certainly not a nice thing that she's done. It's hundreds of millions

  • of ads. And the only gratifying thing is, I saw the polls come in today, and with all

  • of that money...

  • HOLT: We have to move on to the final question.

  • TRUMP: ... $200 million is spent, and I'm either winning or tied, and I've spent practically

  • nothing.

  • (APPLAUSE)

  • HOLT: One of you will not win this election. So my final question to you tonight, are you

  • willing to accept the outcome as the will of the voters? Secretary Clinton?

  • CLINTON: Well, I support our democracy. And sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. But

  • I certainly will support the outcome of this election.

  • And I know Donald's trying very hard to plant doubts about it, but I hope the people out

  • there understand: This election's really up to you. It's not about us so much as it is

  • about you and your families and the kind of country and future you want. So I sure hope

  • you will get out and vote as though your future depended on it, because I think it does.

  • HOLT: Mr. Trump, very quickly, same question. Will you accept the outcome as the will of

  • the voters? TRUMP: I want to make America great again. We are a nation that is seriously

  • troubled. We're losing our jobs. People are pouring into our country.

  • The other day, we were deporting 800 people. And perhaps they passed the wrong button,

  • they pressed the wrong button, or perhaps worse than that, it was corruption, but these

  • people that we were going to deport for good reason ended up becoming citizens. Ended up

  • becoming citizens. And it was 800. And now it turns out it might be 1,800, and they don't

  • even know.

  • HOLT: Will you accept the outcome of the election?

  • TRUMP: Look, here's the story. I want to make America great again. I'm going to be able

  • to do it. I don't believe Hillary will. The answer is, if she wins, I will absolutely

  • support her.

  • (APPLAUSE)

  • HOLT: All right. Well, that is going to do it for us. That concludes our debate for this

  • evening, a spirit one. We covered a lot of ground, 22:38:33 not everything as I suspected

  • we would.

  • The next presidential debates are scheduled for October 9th at Washington University in

  • St. Louis and October 19th at the University of Nevada Las Vegas. The conversation will

  • continue.

  • A reminder. The vice presidential debate is scheduled for October 4th at Longwood University

  • in Farmville, Virginia. My thanks to Hillary Clinton and to Donald Trump and to Hofstra

  • University for hosting us tonight. Good night, everyone. 22:38:58

  • GWEN IFILL: And that concludes the first debate between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump.

  • We watched them there on the stage.

  • Joining Gwen Ifill and me here in our studio for some analysis, syndicated columnist Mark

  • Shields, New York Times columnist David Brooks, and Amy Walter of The Cook Political Report.

  • Mark Shields, they did cover a lot of ground, from jobs to taxes, from race to ISIS, and

  • just now women. What did you make of it all?

  • MARK SHIELDS: I think that, first of all, Donald Trump made it about him, rather than

  • about the American people.

  • I think that was missing in his message. And I really think that he is remarkable political

  • figure, in that, if you think about American presidents, whether it's Ronald Reagan or

  • John Kennedy or Barack Obama or Franklin Roosevelt, there was always an optimism to them.

  • That is a very dark and rather dreary message, that we're surrounded by people who are not

  • simply incompetent, but who are cutting deals, who have conflicts of interest.

  • If -- Hillary Clinton, I thought was Hillary Clinton. She was factual. She was well-organized

  • in her thinking, not particularly likable, did not come across as -- did not reveal much

  • about herself, other that anecdote about her dad again and the nod to the grandchild at

  • the opening.

  • I really thought Trump did -- failed his test of presidential...

  • GWEN IFILL: And as we watch the families come on stage, as is typical after these debates,

  • the Clintons, former President Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton, of course. And Chelsea

  • Clinton is there as well.

  • And on the other half of the stage, Melania and Donald Trump, his sons, his daughters,

  • others.

  • Now, Amy, we -- I counted -- we counted it up. Hillary Clinton referred to Donald Trump

  • by his first name, Donald -- most people call him Mr. Trump -- 22 times. She clearly had

  • it in her mind that she wanted to get under his skin, to bug him. Did it work?

  • AMY WALTER: Well, he was on the defensive much more than he was on the offense in this

  • debate, whether it was on question of the birtherism, on his taxes, his support for

  • the Iraq War, the debate about women, and his things he said about women, about stamina.

  • This was a debate in which she was able -- and I think that Mark is completely right. Trump

  • made it about himself, but she helped him to make it about himself.

  • Look, she didn't provide the vision. I think that there are a lot of folks, even on the

  • Democratic side, looking for that sense of, what is the bigger message of Hillary Clinton?

  • She's very smart. She has all of the facts outlined. She has all the policy papers up

  • on her Web site.

  • But the bigger, sort of cohesive vision for where we take America, I just -- I don't know

  • that we still saw that in this debate.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: David, how do you see this? Did either one of them do what they needed

  • to do tonight?

  • DAVID BROOKS: Well, it wasn't -- if what they needed to do was make me feel better about

  • the country, they failed. It was the opposite of elevating on both sides.

  • I thought, for the first half-hour, that Donald Trump was winning. And I thought that was

  • because, he may be obnoxious, but he is a change agent. And the first half-hour was

  • on his turf.

  • And her answers, Hillary Clinton's answers, went it was on -- gets to policy, it can't

  • just be three things. It has to be 16 things. And you get in laundry list mode.

  • Then she started attacking him. And she had two devastatingly good answers, on the birther

  • issue and the tax return issue, which were really good assaults on him. So, even though

  • she's not good at describing a policy, she's really good at going after him.

  • And then the debate got on, and Donald Trump became Donald Trump. And with every answer,

  • it was digging it a little deeper. His birther answer was abysmal, and bunch of bad answers

  • all in a row. The race issue was terrible, the looks issue, bad.

  • And so he just -- at his lack of preparation, and, frankly, a lot of his policies and his

  • character just got worse and worse and worse. So, I think you would have to say this was

  • a Clinton night.

  • GWEN IFILL: John Yang is in -- at Hofstra University for us tonight. He's at the site

  • of tonight's debate.

  • And I'm wondering what the scene is like there, John, how it's going over.

  • JOHN YANG: Well, I tell you, the spinners are just coming out. I'm just in front of

  • the Donald Trump holding room.

  • You can see them coming by here. Before, Senator Claire McCaskill came by. She's obviously

  • a supporter of Secretary Clinton. She was telling me that she felt -- and this is sort

  • of the line coming out of their -- the Clinton room tonight -- that Donald Trump, once again,

  • they say, showed that he wasn't prepared to be president.

  • They say that this was -- they say that it came right from the top, when the secretary

  • was able to give what they say -- what they're saying was a coherent policy about providing

  • jobs in America. But he wasn't.

  • I tried to -- Governor Christie went by, wouldn't stop. I'm trying to see if I can get someone

  • from the Trump campaign to get their reaction.

  • But, so far, that's what we have gotten so far.

  • GWEN IFILL: OK, John, we're going to let you keep searching for people in the room to talk

  • to. And we will get back to you.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Mark, I want to come to you, because was there any -- David was saying

  • that Donald Trump did better in the first half-hour, when they talked about jobs, and

  • he talked about jobs leaving the country. Did Hillary Clinton ever have an answer to

  • that?

  • MARK SHIELDS: Well, I thought -- I mean, she was defensive. There's no question about it.

  • She was defensive on the TPP.

  • But her answer that there were more manufacturing jobs -- she did the defense of her husband's

  • economic record, not a very -- a rather tepid defense. There was a hell of a defense to

  • be made for Bill Clinton's eight years of 22 million jobs and the lowest unemployment

  • rates for African-Americans in the history of the country, balancing the budget.

  • She did -- she just said more manufacturing jobs in the '90s.

  • But I want to say, in defense of Trump, and not to be totally -- I have never heard a

  • presidential candidate -- and I have heard 40 of them -- say, I'm extremely underleveraged.

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • MARK SHIELDS: I mean, that was a rather remarkable statement, if you think about it.

  • And when he talked about not paying taxes, he said, it would be squandered, too. That's

  • why he didn't pay any taxes. And I thought those were -- the explanation, the one that

  • will be most memorable, was that, who hacked the DNC? It wasn't Russia. Could have been

  • Russia. Could have been China. Could have been some other country, or it could have

  • been someone sitting on the bed that weighs 400 pounds.

  • I don't know if the bed weighs 400 pounds or the person weighs 400 pounds.

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • GWEN IFILL: And that is your definition of "in defense of Donald Trump"?

  • MARK SHIELDS: That was it. That was it.

  • GWEN IFILL: Just checking.

  • DAVID BROOKS: He touched me. I'm underleveraged myself.

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • GWEN IFILL: Can we talk a little bit about the line of questioning on race?

  • Because when -- I never heard presidential candidate in the debate call the person that

  • he or she is running against, use the word racist, three times. And also, when he was

  • asked about race, Donald Trump talked about law and order.

  • What were the dog whistles in the room? Or maybe they weren't even dog whistles. Everybody

  • could hear them.

  • AMY WALTER: Yes.

  • Donald Trump's answer, whenever there's an issue on -- whether it's on race, whether

  • it's on policing, whether it's on terrorism, he always comes back to, it's all about law

  • and order. We're going to get the police. We're going to get stuff done, because that's

  • how things work.

  • And we also know that that is an answer that is not a comfortable answer for many people

  • in the African-American community and in -- among nonwhite voters, about who gets profiled when

  • we have stop and frisk programs, when we have law and order, what that actually means.

  • These were questions that were not the kinds of questions that Donald Trump answers particularly

  • well. But that's not who he's playing to. We talked about this a lot during the convention.

  • Throughout this -- throughout the convention, throughout this debate, Donald Trump talked

  • to the same people he's been talking to this entire campaign. There are a group of voters

  • out there who are white, who are working class who he's done very, very well with. And those

  • are voters he expects to take him all the way throughout this election.

  • And he's not interested in reaching out and getting beyond that base.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: You know, David, picking up what Amy is saying, it seems to me that much

  • of this debate was on territory where Donald Trump is uncomfortable, I mean, the whole

  • birther question. Lester Holt raised that. He pushed Donald Trump on that. He pushed

  • him on his tax returns, which we have been talking about.

  • These were areas where Donald Trump was back against the ropes.

  • DAVID BROOKS: Yes.

  • I do think Holt was tougher on Trump than on Clinton. Maybe there's more to work with

  • there. And he certainly exposed some vulnerabilities. The defense that "I have a country club in

  • Palm Beach which allows in minorities," that's not -- that is not your good defense.

  • But...

  • GWEN IFILL: Trump is apparently already tweeting that there weren't good questions about e-mails,

  • about Benghazi...

  • DAVID BROOKS: Right.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: And the Clinton Foundation.

  • DAVID BROOKS: And somewhat fair, actually.

  • But here is way think it's going to happen. I think he really looked bad on some of the

  • -- especially some of the racial stuff, on the gender stuff, a lot of stuff.

  • And so I think we can expect his polls to drop as after the convention season. But,

  • as Amy said, that's not his audience. And, two, he is thematically so consistent. We

  • are under assault, we're under assault, we're under assault.

  • And it wouldn't surprise me if he then -- his numbers then began to go up, as they have

  • in the last couple weeks, with all this stuff. He's already said all this before.

  • GWEN IFILL: I might also add that, if you want to know, we have been keeping track of

  • the things that were true, the things that were false that were said tonight on our Web

  • site, PBS.org/NewsHour. Just go there and find what all of our experts, including our

  • own -- well, Margaret Warner, our own Paul Solman are telling -- answering these questions.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: Pulling it together.

  • GWEN IFILL: But facts -- facts seemed to be an important issue here than -- or lack thereof,

  • tonight, Mark. And that was also Hillary Clinton's turf.

  • MARK SHIELDS: Yes. No, that's where she is.

  • But she can't give a short answer. That is a real problem. There is a little bit of,

  • let me tell you how much I know. And I -- I don't even know the capital of Sweden, but

  • I can tell you what the principal products of Sweden are and how long, you know, Stockholm

  • -- and I think that is -- but I have -- again, there are moments in the debate which I think

  • we can't ignore.

  • And that is, "You don't learn a lot from the tax returns, that, I can tell you," explaining

  • why he hasn't released his own taxes, and said paying no federal taxes makes me smart.

  • Now, I'm sorry. I mean, the cops and E-4s in the Marine Corps and schoolteachers and

  • registered nurses who pay taxes every year, I don't know if not paying taxes for the two

  • years that he has on the record is a recommendation.

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • DAVID BROOKS: I would agree with you, if the Republican debates hadn't happened.

  • And maybe it's just the Republican audiences are different. But the rules are a little

  • different this year. And a lot of things where he says, I'm smart, I got away with this,

  • I do think that has some resonance in a country of high-end social distrust. And I do think

  • some of the rules are a little different applying to him.

  • MARK SHIELDS: Do you think those respectable people who have come to him in the last few

  • weeks, I mean, the thoughtful, have been kind of overlooking it? Do you think they were

  • made comfortable tonight?

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • DAVID BROOKS: Total squirming. Total squirming.

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • AMY WALTER: Yes. And that's really the question: Did he pass the judgment test?

  • But to the point of -- which I don't know that he was able to pass the judgment, temperament

  • test. I don't think that that was -- he gets high marks on that.

  • But on the question about where the country feels that we're going, we're pretty evenly

  • divided between whether -- and this is the Wall Street Journal poll -- is our country

  • losing ground or is our country making progress? Forty-eight percent say losing ground. Forty-five

  • percent say making progress.

  • Not surprisingly, among white Americans, plus-11 losing ground, among nonwhite Americans, plus-28

  • making progress.

  • And so when you see these candidates literally talking past each other, as you pointed out,

  • on race issues, on so many other issues about where we're going...

  • GWEN IFILL: Taxes.

  • AMY WALTER: ... on taxes, it's literally we have a country that is seeing the direction

  • that we're going in completely differently.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: I think all three of you were saying before the debate that Hillary Clinton

  • tonight needed to be more likable. She needed to -- Mark, what was your term? She needed

  • to...

  • MARK SHIELDS: At the end of it, say, not a bad egg.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: Not a bad egg.

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • MARK SHIELDS: Like to have in the carpool.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: But she did she do that tonight?

  • MARK SHIELDS: In the PTA meeting.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: Did that happen or not?

  • MARK SHIELDS: No. I don't think -- I don't think -- she wasn't unlikable, but she certainly

  • -- there wasn't any...

  • AMY WALTER: What?

  • MARK SHIELDS: There wasn't any point in which you got a peek into her -- who she is, what

  • makes her tick.

  • GWEN IFILL: I never hear anybody ask whether Donald Trump is likable.

  • MARK SHIELDS: Oh, sure we do.

  • GWEN IFILL: Yes?

  • MARK SHIELDS: Yes.

  • GWEN IFILL: Yes?

  • MARK SHIELDS: And he's thoroughly unlikable.

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • DAVID BROOKS: It's not really an open question.

  • GWEN IFILL: Oh, I see. Oh, I see.

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • MARK SHIELDS: Well, the Wall Street Journal/NBC poll, to come back to what Amy was just talking

  • about, he started 28/59 favorable/unfavorable, and now he's at 29.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: We're going quickly back to Hofstra university in New York.

  • Our John Yang is there.

  • John, you have maybe found a Trump person?

  • GWEN IFILL: Hi, John.

  • JOHN YANG: I have got -- we have been talking to some of the Trump supporters here now.

  • They think -- and the one point that they have been repeating over and over again is

  • the point, actually, that he repeated over and over again in the debate, was hitting

  • at Clinton as a career politician, that reinforcing this idea that he's the -- that career politicians

  • like Hillary Clinton are the reason for the problems we're seeing now.

  • That's been a signature line of his campaign and, in many ways, one reason for a lot of

  • the support of the campaign. And that's what we're hearing over and over again from the

  • Trump supporters here tonight.

  • GWEN IFILL: In fact, John, that was one of the big lines tonight, which is that she has

  • experience, but it's bad experience, right? And so they are picking up on that.

  • JOHN YANG: Right.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: So -- and, John, thank you.

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: Go ahead.

  • JOHN YANG: No, go ahead.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: I was just going to bring it back here and say to David, is that effective?

  • Is that something that sticks that he keeps repeating?

  • DAVID BROOKS: I think it does, actually.

  • If you looked at her, just take him out of the debate, she does look like a career politician.

  • She does repeat a lot of things. She doesn't quite make human convention -- connection.

  • And in year that's very unusual, she's not that unusual.

  • But I thought she did fine, and with some devastatingly good assaults. But, again, as

  • Mark said, he was the subject. And he did negative.

  • AMY WALTER: Well, and that's been the theme throughout this campaign, right?

  • Wherever the spotlight goes, if it's placed on you, the candidate, you are likely to drop

  • in the polls. When the spotlight gets to the other candidate -- because this race has just

  • simply been a referendum on who the worst candidate is, right?

  • And so when it -- if it goes to the spotlight now on Donald Trump and how much he was on

  • defense, it's not going to be how well Clinton did as much as how poorly he did. And if it

  • goes over to Hillary Clinton, then she becomes the focus. Her numbers suffer.

  • And at the end of the day, the candidate who wins is the candidate who doesn't get in that

  • spotlight for the last couple of weeks.

  • GWEN IFILL: Let me ask a question about just one big policy issue that he seemed to land

  • a few blows on. And that was on trade, when he kind of basically made the point that she

  • had changed her mind. And he drove that point home.

  • MARK SHIELDS: He did.

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • MARK SHIELDS: The question I had, as he was doing that, was -- are his interruptions a

  • sign of strength or obnoxiousness?

  • But he -- there's no question, he dominated the dialogue. She was very much playing defense

  • in the first part there.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: But, as David said, in the first half-hour, it seemed to be that he was

  • getting the better of a couple of points.

  • But then, as we moved into the debate, it seemed to me Hillary Clinton felt more comfortable

  • coming after him and sticking with some...

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • MARK SHIELDS: Yes, she baited him. There's no question.

  • AMY WALTER: Oh, yes.

  • The Donald was baited. And he not, in that sense, go after her the way I thought he would.

  • I thought his own defense of his positions was really faulty.

  • GWEN IFILL: Well, time for all three of you to ask -- really quick answers.

  • AMY WALTER: Uh-oh.

  • GWEN IFILL: Expectations in advance, did they meet your expectations afterward?

  • AMY WALTER: Yes, they did.

  • GWEN IFILL: OK.

  • Mark?

  • MARK SHIELDS: No.

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • MARK SHIELDS: My expectations have never been met. No.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: We may ask you this question again tomorrow.

  • David?

  • DAVID BROOKS: Not a kamikaze night for him. So, it's not a career-ender, not a campaign-ender,

  • but not a good night.

  • GWEN IFILL: All right. I think I gave you, like, one word.

  • AMY WALTER: Yes.

  • But I can say -- yes, agree that it was a better night for Hillary Clinton, but it does

  • not feel like it was the defining end-all, be-all of this campaign.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: And, hey, we have only got six weeks to go.

  • GWEN IFILL: You know what that means. We are going to have to come back and do it again

  • right here at this table, maybe October 4 for the vice presidential debate.

  • That concludes our coverage of the first presidential debate, but there's whole lot more, as we

  • were saying, online. You can watch highlights. Plus, see how "NewsHour" staff, from Margaret

  • Warner to Paul Solman, as you were saying, and more put what the candidates said in context.

  • That's all at PBS.org/NewsHour.

  • I'm Gwen Ifill.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: And I'm Judy Woodruff.

  • And join us right here for the "NewsHour" tomorrow night.

  • For all of us at the "PBS NewsHour," thank you, and good night.

DONALD TRUMP: Nobody knows the system better than me.

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