And obviously they don’t hurt.

並不太疼

This coat has been through a war, possibly two.

這件外套已經經歷過戰爭（意指文中的主角經歷過戰爭）

Pebbles are nothing.

這些小石頭算不了什麼

It’s built for grenades.”

這件外套可以承受手榴彈（意指主角可以承受更多）

So Meeder says, “Not only do I detect fact and a bit of humor in here, but I was wondering

Meeder 接著說，「在這邊我不止發現到一些幽默幹和事實，

whether this is a metaphor for being a feminist.

我也在想這會不會是用來比喻一個女權主義者

The small obstacles are something we blow away; we’ve got bigger fish to fry.”

我們將會排除萬難；我們還有更偉大的事要完成」

So that’s a quote from How to Be a Woman, and it’s the opening chapter where I’m

這是從 How to Be a Woman 中第一個章節節錄的一個句子

describing the worst birthday anyone’s ever had.

在這個章節我描述了你可以想像最糟糕的生日

It was my 13th birthday, and I was walking across some wastelands.

那是我13歲的生日，我路過一個荒地

And some boys started shouting at me, and then they started throwing stones at me.

有幾個男孩看到我後開始對我叫嚷，然後他們開始用石頭丟我

And I felt like turning round to them and saying, you know, I’m already oppressed

當時我恨不得轉過頭對他們說，我已經感到很壓迫很委屈了

enough, simply by being a woman!

僅僅身為一個女人

You don’t need to throw stones at me as well!

你們沒必要拿石頭丟我！

Society is throwing enough stones at me as it is.

這個社會對我的壓迫已經夠多了

So yes, I know, it is very much a metaphor.

是的，我知道它是一種比喻

But you know, but within that metaphor there, cunningly, and I’m making this up as I go

但隱藏在這個比喻裡的是

along because I hadn’t thought about it, feminism is the coat that you’re wearing.

我之前沒有認真想過的事 - 女權主義就是你在穿的這件外套

In that thing, I was wearing a huge army coat of my dad’s that had been through several wars

我穿著這件我爸經歷過數次戰役的巨大軍衣

And that’s what feminism is, it’s the coat that will protect you.

這件軍隊外套和女權主義一樣，會保護你

It has been through several wars.

它已經歷經好幾次的戰役了

However many problems there may be being a woman or a girl now, compared to the problems

儘管如此，裡面提及的問題大部分是身為現代女性的問題

that we had 100 years ago, 150 years ago, you know we are definitely—there’s no

現代女性面對的難題和100、150年前顯然不一樣

better time in history to be a woman than now.

我們也應當感到慶幸，現在正是歷史上身為女人最好的時間點了

We’re not getting burnt at the stake anymore.

女性不會再被奇怪的理由苛責和處罰

Hair products have improved immeasurably, so frizzy hair need not be a problem.

護髮產品越來越好用，捲髮不再是問題

You know, we have Benedict Cumberbatch’s face.

像 Benedict Cumberbatch 俊俏的臉

You know, things are definitely getting better.

凡事會越來越好

Things are improving, for sure.

凡事都在進步，這是一定的

No, I think that’s so true.

我覺得這是一定的

I think feminism and the feminist movement and finding a community of women through feminism

我覺得女權主義本身、女權運動、通過女權主義找到合適的團體

and all of these things have sort of like—it feels like have been creating this force field

這些事彷彿在我身邊創造了一個力場

around me, which has been sort of insulating me from all sorts of cold weather—sexism,

這個力場有某些特別的能力，可以將我我從各種惡劣的氛圍隔離，像是 - 性別歧視

patriarchy, so.

父權等等，所以

I totally relate.

我完全可以理解和想像

I totally relate.

我完全可以理解和想像

Well it’s that saying, isn’t it?

有一個名言是說

Kind of like standing on the shoulders of giants.

站在巨人的肩膀上

And I say I’m standing on the shoulders of aunts.

我覺得應該說是站在阿姨的肩膀上

Because that’s who they are, all these women that came before that have done these things.

因為這就是她們，這些女性身為過來人完成了很多事

All the little laws that they brought in, all the marches that they went on have incrementally

她們的付出、帶來的改變是逐漸增量的

made my life better.

讓我現在可以過上更好的生活

You would not be sitting there, and I would not be sitting here, if it wasn’t for probably

你我都不會坐在這裡

20 women who went out there and changed things.

如果不是因為這20個女性當時做了改變的決定

But that’s the beautiful thing—one person can change things for millions of people.

不過這也是讓人著迷的地方 - 即使是一個人也有可能為無數人做出一些改變

One person can alter the future, and everything that I write, the idea of writing Moranifesto,

一個人就可以改變未來，我所寫的任何事，寫 Moranifesto 這本書的理念

was everyone, I genuinely believe everyone has one idea, however tiny, that could change

是有關於任何一個個體，我由衷地相信任何一個人，只要他有一個想法，哪怕是很微小的

the world.

這個想法也是有能力改變世界的

And we need all those little ideas.

我們非常需要這些微小但有潛力的想法

That’s the only way the world changes, is by everybody who has that idea, having, making

這是唯一讓這個世界不斷進步的方法，我們確保這些有想法的人

sure that we have a society that is structured so that if you have a great idea, it can be

可以在一個結構完善的社會，當你有好的想法的時候

heard by the right people and can be put into action.

你的想法可以被有利於幫助你實現想法的人聽見

That’s the idea of democracy.

這就是民主的觀念

I love the letter that you wrote to your daughter at the end of Moranifesto.

我非常喜歡在 Moranifesto 的最後，你寫給你女兒的信

And it actually reminded me of—I’m currently, I’m re-reading 1984 at the moment because

這封信讓我想起一些事 - 我現在正在重讀1984

I did a film called The Circle, which has a lot of the same themes.

因為我正參與一部 The Circle 這部電影，1984和這部電影有很多議題很類似

And it talks about, in this book, how for the first time in human history, we could—we

在這本書提到在人類歷史上，我們可以 -

actually have the potential, we have the technology, we have the scientific advances, we have the

我們確實有這個潛力、我們有技術、科技日新月異

knowledge, for the first time, to feed the world, to possibly create peace, to actually

我們有知識，我們可以餵飽人口、為世界帶來和平

achieve all of these things.

去達成以上所說的事

But for the first time in human history, we don’t believe that it’s possible, that

但同時這也是人類史上第一次，我們不相信這些是有可能辦到的

humanity will allow us to do that.

我們不相信人性可以讓我們辦到這些

We don’t believe in the innate goodness of humans to achieve this anymore.

我們不再相信人性本善將足以幫助我們達成這些

There’s this kind of disillusionment which has followed the Enlightenment, there’s

人們在啟蒙運動結束後感到悲觀、幻滅

this lack of hope that we can actually get this done anymore, and it’s so ironic and

人們缺乏希望，人們不再相信其實這些都是可以辦到的

tragic that it really would be the first moment we would actually be able to do it.

這其實非常諷刺和悲慘，因為這次是我們第一次離大同世界最接近的一次

And there’s been all these times in history when we were writing books about utopias and

以往我們都是寫了許多有關烏托邦的書

we were imagining all of these wonderful societies, and whatever else.

我們都在想像這些美好的人事物

And now all we do is we make movies about dystopias and about the world ending and apocalypse

而現在我們卻大量生產這些提倡反烏托邦、世界毀滅的電影

and everything just crumbling around us.

在提倡一切都快完蛋瓦解的世界

I thought that was really interesting, and I just—I loved that your—I loved that Moranifesto

我覺得這點非常有趣，我非常喜歡 Moranifesto

was just full of hope, and just the idea that this is absolutely possible.

我覺得它給人帶來希望，我喜歡它所提倡的大同世界是有可能達成的這個想法

You don’t need to watch the news every night.

我們不需要每晚都看新聞

You know, you can actually—you can have a diet of hope and belief and faith in human beings

對人性本善、保持正向這件事抱有信心和希望就可以讓我們充滿力量

Well, totally.

是的，完全沒錯

Well the future is a propaganda war.

未來的世界是被宣傳和口號牽引的

You know, kind of like, we are choosing whether we’re going to be pessimistic or optimistic

對於未來，我們可以選擇要往悲觀或樂觀的方向

about the future.

對於未來，我們可以選擇要往悲觀或樂觀的方向

And the way that the news media is set up at the moment, and the tone that social media

現在的新聞媒體的操作方式，以及社群網路所製造的討論氛圍

has, these two incredibly powerful places where we have all our conversations, and where

這兩個現代人接收以及探討事情的主要平台

we go—what’s the world like today?

我們的方向在哪裡?

I’ll look at the news and I’ll go on social media.

我會先看新聞，然後我就會到社群網站去

That’s what the world is now.

現代人對訊息以及媒體的交流就是這樣

And the tone of both those places is incredibly pessimistic.

而我們可以發現，不管是主流媒體或社群網站，氛圍都相當悲觀

It’s only showing us problems.

媒體讓我們看到的都是問題

It’s only showing us things when they’ve tipped over and it seems like they can’t

媒體只讓我們看到失敗的事情

be solved anymore.

讓我們覺得這些事都沒有解決的方法

And people’s reaction to that is necessarily one of being completely overwhelmed, and just

人們對這些訊息的反應必須是招架不住的

going well we’re pumped then, this is it.

唯有如此，當結果反而是好的時候，人們就會感到振奮

And but that’s where you realize that like on a day to day basis one of the greatest

不過這也是讓我們發現在生活中

things that you can do to the continuation of our species and making the world a better

可以讓我們的下一代過得更好的方式就是

place is to be optimistic, is to not believe in that.

要付諸行動讓這個世界充滿希望，而不是單純相信而已

Because, you know, if we all thought that everything was going to get better, then things

只有當我們相信一切都會變好的時候

would get better.

事情才會變好

But you know, if at the point where you just become, oh no, it’s just too exhausting,

如果不幸的在某個時間點我們覺得筋疲力盡沒辦法繼續下去

I can’t do anything about it– It’s not going to make a difference.

覺得自己沒辦法完成任何事，覺得沒辦法帶來改變

—that is where we lose the war.

這時候，我們就會敗下陣來

So, there’s a brilliant lyrics by the band The Divine Comedy, “Fate doesn’t hang

樂團 The Divine Comedy 有一句歌詞寫得非常好

on a wrong or right choice.

「 命運不會被對或錯的決定左右

Fate just depends on the tone of your voice.”

你的心態將決定你的命運」。

And that is so key, because you know, if you make mistakes in your life, you know, decisions

這很關鍵，假設你在你的人生犯錯

that you make won’t ruin your life.

你做的抉擇不會把你的人生毀了

But if your tone all the way through is one of unhappiness or anger or if you’re an

但如果你一直都維持一貫的不開心、憤怒

unpleasant person, that will dictate your life.

或是不友善，這一點將會決定你的人生

And it’s the same with our species.

決定了人生，就會決定我們人類這個物種

We can make all these mistakes, but if our general tone is one of we’re together in

犯錯是被允許的，但如果大家的心態是團結的

this, we’re going to make things better, then that

大家的心態是可以一起把事情變得更好的話

is what will happen.

事情就真的可以變得更好

But this is why culture’s so key, and the thing that I enjoyed most about my writing

這也是為什麼文化是非常關鍵的，它讓我的寫作生涯感到滿足和享受

and why I think it’s amazing you’re doing what you’re doing, and it’s because for

它讓我感受到活在當下

too long these kinds of conversations have only happened in politics or in academia,

這是因為有很長一段時間，這些對話只發生在政治和學院上

and you know, not many people will pay attention to those things.

只有少數人會對這些事表示關心

You only come to those things late: you only come to academia when you’re in your teens

當我們接觸這些時已經相對晚了：我們只有在青春期或二十幾歲才會開始接觸學術

or in your twenties.

當我們接觸這些時已經相對晚了：我們只有在青春期或二十幾歲才會開始接觸學術

You probably won’t start to get into politics until that time as well.

我們恐怕最早也要到二十歲才會開始接觸政治

But as a child, when you’re growing up, what you think the world is and what your

不過身為小朋友，當我們在長大的時候，全世界和我們可能接觸的事對我們來說

possibilities are, is stories.

是各種故事

It’s the films you watch, it’s the TV you watch, it’s the things you see in magazines.

是我們看的電影、電視、雜誌

And that’s why making sure that you have as many different stories as possible and

這也是確保我們在故事以及內容可以盡量有更多的選擇

as many different people represented in these things are key.

這也是確保我們在故事以及內容可以盡量有更多的選擇

One of the big examples that I give in the books is, when I was growing up one of the

其中一個我在書裡提到的例子是，在我小時候

worst things you could say to a boy in the playground was “you’re a gaylord” you

人們在操場對小男孩說的最糟糕的話是「你是同性戀」

know, “you’re a queer.”

人們在操場對小男孩說的最糟糕的話是「你是同性戀」

Like they were destroyed, you know, to say that someone was gay, that was the end of their life

小男孩聽到這句話，對他們的傷害是非常大的，就想世界末日一樣

Then you fast forward 20 years into the future, and the writer Russell T. Davies writes, first

接著讓我們快轉二十年，編劇 Russell T.Davies 寫了

of all, Queer as Folk, and then takes over Doctor Who, and writes into Doctor Who this

同志亦凡人、異世奇人這兩部電視劇

brilliant, swashbuckling bisexual superhero Captain Jack Harkness, who, in one episode,

他創造了Captain Jack Harkness 這個聰穎、英勇並且是雙性戀的角色

kisses the Doctor on Prime Time TV.

這個角色在其中一集播出的黃金時段親吻了主角 the Doctor

And not only are there no letters of complaint to the BBC about this, but when I go to my

當時 BBC 不僅沒收到任何投訴信

daughter’s school on Monday morning, there are boys in the playground fighting to play

當我禮拜一早晨到我女兒的學校時，操場上的男生都爭先恐後想要扮演這個雙性戀的角色

this bisexual character.

當我禮拜一早晨到我女兒的學校時，操場上的男生都爭先恐後想要扮演這個雙性戀的角色

Because we’ve now got a story, we’ve now got a character.

因為現在我們有了一個故事，我們有了一個角色

Instead of it just being the word “gay” we’ve got this hero that everybody wants

這個角色不僅僅是一般的「 同性戀」這個字，而是一個大家都想要成為的角色

to be.

這個角色不僅僅是一般的「 同性戀」這個字，而是一個大家都想要成為的角色

And I can draw a direct line between that show and that character, and then passing

我可以把那個電視節目和那個角色所產生的效果

the equal marriage act in this country.

歸功於讓這個國家順利通過同性婚姻法

Because when you’ve got children in a playground who are fine with bisexuality and see all

因為當我們的小孩對雙性戀感到沒什麼不妥的時候

love as equal, their fathers and grandfathers who’re in Parliament can’t go, Well we

當他們視所有的愛都是平等的，但他們在立法院的祖父爸爸卻沒辦法認同這些

don’t believe in this.

我們不會相信這個的

Your children have shamed you.

如果真的發生這種事，我們的孩子會把我們比下去

Culture is there to show you possible futures.

所以，一個地方、族群的文化將會為我們預測未來的前景

And again, that’s why it’s so important to make sure that you’ve got all these different

這也是我一再強調

voices, and particularly if you possibly can, to tell an optimistic story.

我們必須容納這些不同的聲音，而當能力許可的時候，去弘揚正面的故事

Show us a better future.

為大家示範、指出一個更好的未來

Show us—show me amazing people doing amazing things.

為大家示範 - 了不起的人們可以做了不起的事

Because that’s what children are watching, and going, “Yeah, that’s gonna be my future!

因為這將會是小孩看到的，他們會說「 沒錯，這將會是我的未來！

I believe in that!”

我對此深信不疑！」

It’s really interesting, since doing my work with UN Women, and since becoming more

這非常有趣，自從我和聯合國婦女開始合作共事

involved in this movement generally, people have said, Well, are you going to give up,

自從我更多的參與這類的活動，人們都會問我說，你什麼時候要放棄

now?

現在嗎？

Do you not want to act anymore?

你不要演戲了嗎？

Are you not going to be an actress?

你不想繼續當一個演員了嗎？

And if anything, it’s actually reinstilled my passion for what I do, and made it more important

如果我參與這些互動對我有任何的意義和改變，我覺得是對於我想做的事，重新讓我找到熱忱，也讓這些事變得更重要

Well, the other key thing about culture is, again, if you want to change the world, you

另一個有關文化的關鍵點是，如果你想要改變世界

can argue all day that something’s right or wrong.

我們也許可以一直對一些事的對錯爭論不休

You can say women should be equal to men, we should see women in films equally to men,

我們也許可以說女性應該是和男性平等的，電影的女性的出場次數不應該比男性少

living incredible stories and solving their problems.

女性應該也要過著精彩的生活、可以自己解決問題

You can argue that forever, but that argument can go on forever, and there’s no real way

我們可以永遠地去爭辯這點

of resolving it.

但這不是真正的解決之道

Or!

或是！

You can make the right thing cool, and you can just simply show me an amazing woman.

我們可以做出對的事，女性可以直接活出精彩的人生

And that’s what culture does time and time again, it doesn’t argue.

這就是從古至今文化可以辦到的，文化從不單純爭辯

David Bowie could have spent all of his life writing academic treatises and lobbying Parliament

David Bowie 可以花他一生的時間專注於撰寫學術論文和說服立法院

going, you know, bisexuality and gay men who are pretending to be aliens should be accepted

來達到讓這個社會有辦法接受被貼上外來者的雙性戀和同性戀

into society.

來達到讓這個社會有辦法接受被貼上外來者的雙性戀和同性戀

It wouldn’t have gone very far.

如果他採取的是這種方式，恐怕效果不會太好

Instead, he dresses like a gay alien and writes Life on Mars and suddenly everyone’s like,

他反而直接打扮成看似外星人的同性戀打扮、寫了 Life on Mars 這首歌

I wanna be a gay alien!

突然間大家都能接受同性戀，都想要變成外星人同性戀了！

It’s a great idea, this is genius!

這真是一個很棒的想法，簡直天才！

Culture wins!

文化戰勝一切！

It’s faster, and it’s more fun.

這樣會比較有效率，也比較好玩

Because this—the whole thing about change and the revolution and feminism, you know,

因為我們在說的這些有關於改變、革命、女權主義

all these things we’re talking about, anti-racism and equality and the trans movement and stuff.

反種族歧視、平等、跨性別權利運動

It doesn’t need to be worthy and like, eating your fiber and your bran bread, you know and

我們其實沒有必要把它看得太嚴肅

eating your vitamins.

或是一切都要照著死板板的規則去做

The future should be fun, a more inclusive future where people are free to love and are

未來應該是活潑好玩的，一個可以包容的未來是由一群可以自由戀愛

not scared.

和不會被壓迫、恐嚇的人們組成的

It should be amazing, that should be a party you want to join!

他應該是精彩的，應該是一個我們願意加入的派對

We shouldn’t be having to go, “This is the right thing to do,” we should just be

我們不應該覺得「做這件事是因為我覺得他是對的，是必需的」

going, “This is where you wanna be, man.”

我們應該覺得「做這件事是因為我想要這樣做」

So, Jenny wants to know: in chapter 7, I Encounter Some Sexism, you make a point about the possible

Jenny 想要知道：在第七章，I Encounter Some Sexism

reasons why women didn’t have a great role in human history.

你為女性為何在人類史上較少扮演重要的角色給予一些解釋和看法

How did you come to these conclusions?

請問你是怎麼得到這些結論的？

What enlightened you?

有什麼事特別啟發了你嗎？

When you’re taught history at school, and you look at the history of women as it’s

當我們在學校學習歷史的時候，通過觀察女性隨著時間軸的歷史

depicted time and time—you know, our accepted story of humanity is generally the story of men

不難發現，現代人所理解的人性大部分是圍繞於男性的

We tend to only hear about what men did.

我們通常只能聽說男性做了什麼

I’ve learnt a bit more since I wrote that book, because that was 5 years ago.

在完成那本書到現在已經過了五年，在這段時間我又學了更多

I had just presumed that women weren’t doing anything, and that was primarily because we

我當時只是假定女性沒在做什麼事

were giving birth or having raging cystitis that we were gonna have to wait 400 years

會這麼假定是因為我當時覺得女性都在懷孕生子、和膀胱炎奮鬥

before they invented antibiotics to cure, and the combination of those two things was

大概也要等個四百年，男性才有辦法發明適合的抗生素來治療女性

why we didn’t discover America; that, and the very uncomfortable skirts and underwear

這就是為什麼發現新大陸的不會是女性；女性所謂的一些天職

that we were wearing.

和我們身上穿的這些極不舒服的裙子和內衣褲

But since then, I’ve learnt a lot more about female history, and I particularly watched—and

不過自從完成那本書以後，我對女性的歷史有了更多的認識