or at least sang it in a church song once or twice.

或在教會唱過一兩次。

And for most people, this idea is really just connected to being a morally good person...

對大部份的人來說， 「神聖」指的是一個道德良善的人。

So… God is 'holy' because he's morally perfect.

所以上帝是神聖的，祂在道德上沒有瑕疵。

Tim: Yeah, that is part of it...

Tim: 是的，但那只是其中一部分。

but in the Bible the idea of 'holiness' is even bigger and more rich.

但在聖經中，「神聖」的意思是更為廣泛和豐富的。

What it's really describing is how God is the creative force behind the whole universe.

它在描述上帝是整個宇宙的創造者。

He's the one and only being with the power to make a world full of such beauty and life.

上帝是讓世界充滿美好和生命的唯一力量。

And so all these abilities they may God utterly unique, which is the meaning of the word 'holy'.

這些能力突顯上帝的獨特，這也就是「神聖」的意思。

A helpful way to think about God's holiness is by using the sun as a metaphor.

將上帝的「神聖」想像為太陽，是很有力的隱喻。

The sun is unique, at least within our solar system,

至少在太陽系中，太陽是獨特的

And its really powerful. Its the source of all this beautiful life on our planet.

它充滿能量，而且是地球上所有美麗事物的來源。

And so you could say that the sun is 'holy'.

所以你可以說太陽是「神聖」的。

And you can actually take this metaphor even further

接著，我們可以更進一步地來解釋太陽這個隱喻。

in that the whole area around the sun is also 'holy'.

太陽的四周也是「神聖」的。

Jon: Yeah because the closer you get to the sun the more intense it gets.

Jon: 是的，因為你越接近太陽，你的感受就越強烈。

Tim: yeah, exactly. So that very power and goodness that generates all this life is also dangerous.

Tim: 沒錯! 所以那神奇的能量能夠創造生命， 美善卻也危險。

I mean the sun, if you get too close, will annihilate you.

假如你太接近太陽，你會被消滅。

And in the same way there's this paradox at the heart of God's own holiness

同樣地，上帝的「神聖」也有這種看似矛盾的狀態。

because if you're impure his presence is dangerous to you

如果你不純真，你在上帝的旁邊就很危險。

and not because it's bad, but because its so good.

並不是因為上帝的存在是不好的，而是因為祂太好了。

And so the first time we see this paradox of God's holiness, it's in the story of Moses and the burning bush.

所以我們第一次看到上帝的「神聖」， 出現在摩西和荊棘火中。

Jon: So God tells Moses to take off his sandals because he's standing on holy ground.

Jon: 上帝告訴摩西脫下腳上的鞋， 因為他所站的地方是聖地。

And Moses covers his face in fear and God says

摩西害怕而蒙上了臉，上帝說：

"hey don't come any closer". Its intense. likely that intensity of God's holiness

「不要近前來。」，好強烈的陳述。

Tim: It's actually that intensity of God's holiness that's explored even more in the stories of Israel's temple

Tim: 上帝的「神聖」在以色列的殿中更為彰顯。

which was the main place where God's holy presence was located

祂的「神聖」主要顯現在以色列的殿中，

and at the center the temple was this room called the Most Holy Place

而「至高的聖地」就在殿的正中央，

it's the hotspot of God's presence.

那裡就是上帝的榮耀。

and whether you're an Israelite living in the land around the temple

不論你是住在聖殿附近的以色列人，

or a priest working right in the temple, you are in proximity to God's holy presence.

或者是在聖殿中服事的祭司， 這些人都和神聖的上帝很接近，

which is dangerous.

所以很危險。

Jon: Yeah, this is a problem. So how is it supposed to work?

Jon: 是啊，這是個問題，所以要如何解決哩?

Tim: Well in the Bible the solution is that you need to become "pure".

Tim: 聖經說我們必須"純潔"，這就是解答。

Jon: So like being Morally Pure?

Jon: 所以是道德上要純潔?

Tim: Yeah, and that's easy enough to understand...

Tim: 是的! 這很容易懂，

...but the Bible spends a lot of time talking about another kind of purity

但聖經中長長地記述了不一樣的純潔，

being Ritually Pure

那就是儀式上的純潔。

which is a state where you separate yourself from anything related to death

這樣的狀態是指我們要隔開與死亡有關的事物，

like touching things like diseased skin, or dead bodies, or even certain bodily fluids.

譬如: 觸摸患病的皮膚、屍體、或某些體液。

all these make you impure.

這些東西都使我們不純潔。

And becoming ritually impure isn't necessarily sinful.

儀式上的不純潔並不一定是有罪的，

What's wrong is waltzing into God's presence when you're in an impure state.

但是進入上帝的殿中，你卻不純潔，這就不對了。

And so that's why God gave the Israelites very clear instructions for knowing when they were impure...

所以上帝告訴以色列人非常清楚的律例： 何時他們是不純潔的、

steps to become pure, so that they could go into the temple again.

如何變純潔，所以以色列人才能進入上帝的聖殿中。

Jon: So that's what the book of Leviticus is about.

Jon: 所以《利未記》就是在記述這個。

Tim: Right. But it doesn't stop there. This idea keeps developing

Tim: 沒錯! 但還沒結束喔! 儀式上純潔的觀念繼續延續。

So later in the scriptures we find this really interesting story by a prophet named Isaiah.

我們在聖經中發現一個有趣的故事， 一位名叫以賽亞的先知，

And he has this crazy vision where he's in the temple

他在聖殿中看到驚人的異象，

and he's right in God's presence. He's totally terrified.

上帝與他同在，先知以賽亞很驚恐。

Jon: Yeah. He knows the rules. He shouldn't even be in there.

Jon: 是的，他清楚上帝的律例，他不應該在那的，

And he's worried about being destroyed.

他很擔心自己會被消滅。

Tim: And then this crazy creature called a Seraphim.

Tim: 突然有個神奇的生物撒拉弗出現了。

Jon: Yeah, that is a crazy creature.

Jon: 真的是個神奇的生物。

Tim: Totally. So it flies over with a hot coal.

Tim: 沒錯! 它向先知以賽亞飛去，手上拿著燒紅的炭，

And then it sears Isaiah's lips with the coal and says something really weird...

撒拉弗拿炭沾先知以賽亞的嘴說：

"Your guilt is taken away and your sin is atoned for."

「 你的罪孽便除掉 、 你的罪惡就赦免了 。」

Jon: So this burning coal somehow makes Isaiah pure.

Jon: 所以這個燒紅的炭讓以賽亞變純潔了。

Tim: Yeah, its remarkable

Tim: 嗯! 很不平凡!

because normally if you touch something impure it transfers its impurity to you.

一般來說，如果你碰到不潔的事物，它會使你不潔。

But now here's this new idea where you have this coal,

但我們發現了新的想法，燒紅的炭，

this very holy and pure object, and it touches Isaiah

這個非常神聖純潔的物體碰觸了以賽亞，

and it transfers its purity to him.

它使以賽亞變純潔了。

Isaiah is not destroyed by God's holiness, he's transformed by it.

以賽亞沒有被上帝的神聖摧毀，反而被轉變了。

I mean the implications of this are just huge.

意涵很深刻。

But there's one more development, this time from another prophet, Ezekiel.

故事還有另一個發展，我們遇見了先知以西結。

And he has this vision where he's standing at the temple

他預見自己站在聖殿的異象，

and he sees water trickling out from it.

它看見水緩緩留出來，

And then that water turns into a stream

細水變成水流，

and then a grows into a deep river that starts flowing through the desert

然後慢慢變成深河，流向沙漠。

leaving this trail of green trees behind it.

樹隨著長出來了。

And then it flows into the Dead Sea making everything fresh and alive.

水流向鹽海，使一切欣欣向榮。

Jon: So, instead of becoming pure first and then going into the temple...

Jon: 所以我們不用先變純潔才能進入聖殿，

...here God's holiness comes out from the temple making things pure bringing them to life.

上帝的神聖從聖殿發出，使一切純潔有生氣。

What does it all mean?

所以這代表甚麼?

Tim: So, we don't know. Until we meet this man Jesus.

Tim: 我們還不知道，直到我們遇見耶穌。

And he claims that he's fulfilling all of these ancient visions but in surprising new ways.

耶穌說他會用一種特別的方法來履行這些異象。

So Jesus, he went around touching people who are impure...

所以他到處接觸不潔的人，

... people with skin diseases, a woman with chronic bleeding, or dead people...

皮膚有病的人、患漏血的女人、或亡者。

and when he touches them, their impurity should transfer over to Jesus ...

當他碰觸他們時，他們的不潔應該會轉移到耶穌身上，

... but instead, Jesus' purity transfers to them and actually heals their bodies.

但是沒有，耶穌的純潔反而改變了他們， 並且治療他們的身體。

Jon: Jesus is like that holy coal in Isaiah's vision.

Jon: 耶穌就好比以賽亞異象中的那塊燒紅的炭。

Tim: Right. And Jesus claimed that he was the human embodiment of God's own holiness.

Tim: 沒錯! 耶穌說他就是上帝神聖的化身，

and that he and his followers were now God's temple

他和他的門徒就是上帝的聖殿。

so that through them God's holy presence would go out into the world

透過他們，上帝的神聖會在世上存在，

and bring life and healing and hope.

並且帶來生命、治癒、和希望。

And so this is why Jesus described his followers as having streams of living water flowing out of them.

所以耶穌描述他的門徒如同活水一樣，流向大家。

Jon: So this is our part of the story where we find ourselves now, but where is it all heading?

Jon: 所以我們現在就處在這世界， 這會帶領我們到哪呢?

Tim: so the last pages of the Bible end with a final vision about God's holiness...

Tim: 聖經的最後在描寫上帝神聖的最後異象。

This time it's by a guy named John.

這次是一個名叫約翰的人。

And in his vision we see the whole world made completely new.

約翰在他的異象中看到一個全新的世界，

The entire earth has become God's temple.

整個世界成為上帝的聖殿。

And Ezekiel's river is there flowing out of God's presence,

以西結看到的河流，從上帝那湧出，

immersing all of creation,

浸潤所有事物，

removing all impurity and bringing everything back to life.

移除所有不潔，使一切充滿生氣。