Energy Matters. I’m Liisa O'Neill, a new media specialist here at the Department of

能源事務。我是Liisa O'Neill，新媒體專家在這裡的部門。

Energy. Today I’m joined by Richard Kauffman, senior adviser to the secretary of energy.

能源。今天我請來了能源部部長的高級顧問理查德-考夫曼。

Kauffman recently joined the department from the private sector where he served as the

考夫曼最近從私營部門加入了該部門，他在那裡擔任的職務是

CEO of Good Energies, a global investor in renewable energy and energy-efficiency technologies.

Good Energies的首席執行官，該公司是可再生能源和能效技術的全球投資者。

We’re here today to talk about both the challenges and opportunities of renewable

今天我們在這裡討論可再生能源的挑戰和機遇。

energy innovation and deployment.

能源創新和部署；

Thank you for being with us today, Mr. Kauffman. If you could start with just talking a little

考夫曼先生，感謝你今天和我們在一起。如果你能開始只是說一點

bit about your background and what drew you to the Department of Energy from the private

談談你的背景，以及是什麼吸引你從私營企業到能源部來的

sector.

部門。

RICHARD KAUFFMAN: Well, it’s great to be here. Thanks a lot, and thank you all for

嗯，很高興來到這裡。非常感謝，並感謝大家

tuning in. I look forward to answering a lot of questions. So the first question, Liisa,

調入。我期待著回答很多問題。所以第一個問題，莉莎

I guess, is about me. So I guess my interest in renewable energy dates back to really a

我想，是關於我的。我想我對可再生能源的興趣可以追溯到

long time ago. It was my first year in college. And that was the year of the first energy

很久以前的事了。那是我上大學的第一年。而那一年是第一個能源

crisis. And I had just gotten my first car and I thought: This is it. I’m never going

危機。我剛剛得到了我的第一輛車，我想。這是它。我永遠不會

to be able to drive my car because there isn’t any more gasoline, because if people remember,

能夠開我的車，因為沒有更多的汽油，因為如果人們記得，

that’s when everybody was waiting in long lines for gas.

那時候大家都在排長隊等著加油。

And so actually it’s almost now 40 years later, and we haven’t really made that much

所以其實現在已經快40年了，我們並沒有真正的做那麼多的事情

progress in the adoption of renewable energy, at least in the United States. We import more

至少在美國，我們在採用可再生能源方面取得了進展。我們進口更多的能源。

oil than we did then by a significant margin. And so when – and then most recently I was,

比我們當時的油價高出一大截。所以當--然後最近我。

as you observed, the CEO of Good Energies. And that was an opportunity to really see

正如你所看到的，好能源的CEO。而這是一個機會，真正看到

through being an investor in renewable energy what the obstacles were. And so when Secretary

通過成為可再生能源的投資者，有什麼障礙。是以，當祕書

Chu called me up and asked me if I would be his adviser on issues of financing and deployment

朱先生給我打電話，問我是否願意做他的融資和部署方面的顧問？

of renewable energy, I thought, well, this is really a great opportunity to serve and

我想，這真的是一個很好的機會來服務於可再生資源的發展。

to work on some of the issues that I think are the big obstacles.

來解決一些我認為是大障礙的問題。

MS. O’NEILL: Great. So are you ready for our first question?

奧尼爾女士：奧尼爾: 很好。那麼你準備好回答我們的第一個問題了嗎？

MR. KAUFFMAN: I’m ready for your first question.

考夫曼先生：我已經準備好回答你的第一個問題。我可以回答你的第一個問題了。

MS. O’NEILL: (Chuckles.) All right.

奧尼爾: (笑)好吧。

MR. KAUFFMAN: And by the way, if people have very technical questions or if I’m not being

考夫曼先生：順便說一句，如果人們有非常技術性的問題，或者我沒有說錯的話，我可以告訴大家。順便說一句，如果人們有非常技術性的問題，或者如果我沒有被...。

technical enough, or too technical, you know, kind of let me know.

足夠的技術，或太技術， 你知道，那種讓我知道。

MS. O'NEILL: All right. Steve (sp), via email, asks: We have unmatched university, national

MS. O'尼爾：奧'尼爾：好的。史蒂夫（sp），通過電子郵件問道。我們有無與倫比的大學，國家

and private research laboratories, yet everything from color TV to biotechnology seems to be

和私人研究實驗室，但從彩色電視機到生物技術的一切似乎都是

exploited by other countries. New energy technologies represent a tremendous research, manufacturing

被其他國家利用。新能源技術是一個巨大的研究、製造和開發的領域。

and deployment job resource. What are we doing to keep it American?

和部署工作資源。我們怎麼做才能保持它的美國性？

MR. KAUFFMAN: Well, it’s a – Steve, that’s a great question. And I think it’s a – it’s

先生：嗯，這是一個--史蒂夫，這是一個很好的問題。KAUFFMAN：嗯，這是一個--史蒂夫，這是一個很好的問題。我認為這是一個... ...

a very interesting time – a critical time, actually, in the renewable energy business,

一個非常有趣的時刻--實際上是可再生能源業務的關鍵時刻。

because everybody talks about it kind of being in the future. But actually the future is

因為每個人都在談論它那種在未來。但實際上，未來是

really, really close because the costs for renewable energy have really come down quite

真的，真的很接近，因為可再生能源的成本真的下降了不少。

dramatically.

急劇。

So in the last couple of years the cost of solar energy has come down 70 percent. The

所以在過去的幾年裡，太陽能的成本已經下降了70%。這

cost of wind has come down 40 percent. And so people talk about grid parity, which is

風力發電的成本已經下降了40%。所以人們都在談論電網平價，也就是

the cost of renewables relative to conventional sources of energy. That’s really within

可再生能源相對於傳統能源的成本。這確實在

sight; in other words, renewables will be competitive with conventional sources of energy

換句話說，可再生能源將與傳統能源相競爭

really in a very few years.

真正在很幾年內。

And so it means that the market globally is beginning to grow very rapidly and it’s

所以這意味著全球的市場開始非常快速的增長，而且它的。

growing for a bunch of reasons. First, a lot of the generation capacity in Europe and the

增長的原因有很多。首先，歐洲和美國的很多發電量都在增長。

United States was built after World War II and it’s come to the end of its useful life.

美國是在二戰後建成的，它的使用壽命已經到了盡頭。

So it needs to be all replaced. And then emerging markets represent a very substantial demand

所以需要全部更換。然後新興市場代表了一個非常大的需求

for energy.

為能源。

If you look at a picture of the Earth at night, half the world is dark, which means they don’t

如果你在晚上看一張地球的照片，世界上有一半的地方都是黑暗的，這意味著他們沒有...

have any electricity. So just in the same way that if you think about what happened

有任何電。所以同樣的，如果你想想發生了什麼事

in the telephone business, where a lot of emerging markets never built wire line technology

在電話業務中，很多新興市場從來沒有建立過有線電視技術

– went right to mobile phones – the same thing is going to likely happen with renewable

- 在行動電話上，同樣的事情很可能發生在可再生資源上。

energy, which is another kind of distributed solution. So the size of the prize is very

能源，這也是另一種分佈式解決方案。所以獎金的大小是很

substantial.

大量的。

And so it means that a number of other countries see this as a very critical industry and they’re

是以，這意味著其他一些國家將其視為一個非常關鍵的行業，他們正在。

doing quite a lot to support the industry. And the United States, as Steve points out,

做了相當多的工作來支持這個行業。而美國，正如史蒂夫所指出的。

has fantastic innovation; but we can’t seem to get things quite right in terms of the

有夢幻般的創新；但我們似乎不能完全正確地處理好在

other elements of – that’s going to make us a real winner in the race. And I think

其他元素的--這將使我們成為比賽中的真正贏家。而我認為

– in Steve’s question, I think he’s got – he’s got it kind of right: that

- 在史蒂夫的問題中，我認為他得到了 - 他得到了它的那種正確的：該

you need – in order for us to be able to get the jobs and be able to fully take advantage

你需要--為了讓我們能夠得到工作，並能夠充分地利用。

of this opportunity to really seize the prize, we’ve got to get all the legs of the stool

趁著這個機會，要想真正抓住這個機會，我們就得把所有的凳子都搬過來。

right.

吧。

So we probably have the innovation stool really pretty right, but we don’t have the market

所以我們可能有創新的凳子真的很漂亮吧，但是我們沒有市場。

development right, and we can talk more about that. But we need to – you need to develop

發展的權利，我們可以多談談。但我們需要--你需要發展

markets.

市場。

We don’t have the financing right because with – cost of financing in the United States

我們沒有融資權，因為美國的融資成本。

is very high. And so – and then this whole question of manufacturing – you need all

是非常高的。所以--然後這整個製造的問題--你需要所有的東西。

those things in place because there are feedback loops, for example, between manufacturing

因為有反饋迴路，例如，在製造業之間的反饋迴路。

and the market. That’s what makes competitors really, really good – is that if they know

和市場。這就是競爭者真正優秀的原因--如果他們知道

what’s going on in the market and can feedback in to the innovation engine and kind of vice-versa.

市場上發生的事情，並能反饋到創新引擎上，反之亦然。

And so if you think about, again, in the telecom industry, the fantastic, domestic market we

所以如果你再想想，在電信行業，夢幻般的，國內市場我們

have has helped create all this innovation. There’s – you think about Apple and all

有幫助創造所有這些創新。有 - 你想想蘋果和所有的

the things that Apple has done, it’s because there is this fantastic, domestic market which

蘋果公司所做的事情，是因為有這個夢幻般的，國內的市場，這。

in turn feeds back to generate more innovation.

反過來又能反饋產生更多的創新。

MS. O'NEILL: Great. Thank you. So we’ve also had a couple questions regarding the

MS. O'NEILL：O'尼爾：很好。謝謝你。所以，我們也有幾個問題，是關於

1603 program. David Colt (ph), via Facebook, asks: What can the DOE do to extend 1603 or

1603計劃。David Colt(音譯)通過Facebook問道。能源部能做些什麼來延長1603計劃或...

something like it to open investments to those without tax equity? Likewise, Tom (sp) from

類似的東西，向沒有稅收權益的人開放投資？同樣，湯姆（sp）從

Georgia asks, via email, is there any chance to have the 30 percent federal grant extended?

喬治亞州通過電子郵件詢問，是否有機會延長30%的聯邦撥款？

MR. KAUFFMAN: OK. Well, this is where it may get too technical for some or maybe not technical

考夫曼先生：好的。好的，這是對某些人來說技術性太強的地方，也可能不是技術性的。

enough for others, but – so I’ll need some coaching from people that are tuning

對別人來說足夠了，但是--所以我需要一些人的指導，在調諧

in as to whether I’ve got it right or wrong.

在於我的判斷是對是錯。

So I think both these questions are really quite similar and it really goes to the nature

所以，我覺得這兩個問題真的很相似，這真的是涉及到本質的問題。

of how the United States gives support to renewable energy, which is in the form of

美國是如何支持可再生能源的？

tax support both in terms of tax credits as well as – tax credits for investment, something

稅收支持，包括稅收抵免和投資稅收抵免，這一點是很重要的

called the Investment Tax Credit, as well as in the form of production tax credits.

稱為投資稅減免，以及以生產稅減免的形式。

And this is not really unusual. This is the way the United States gives support to other

而這其實並不罕見。這就是美國向其他國家提供支持的方式。

industries, including the oil and gas industry and certain parts of the health care industry.

行業，包括石油和天然氣行業以及保健行業的某些部分。

So it’s not – this is not – this part is not unusual.

所以這不是--這不是--這部分並不稀奇。

The part that’s challenging for the renewable energy industry is that many projects are

對於可再生能源行業來說，具有挑戰性的部分是很多項目是

developed – the wind – think about a wind or solar park if you’ve ever seen one of

開發的--風--想想看，如果你見過風能或太陽能公園，你就會發現它是一個很好的選擇。

those. Those are projects that are developed by – not big companies that have a lot of

那些。這些項目都是由--而不是由那些有很多的大公司開發的。

taxable income, but by entrepreneurs that go and find a farmer and ask the farmer if

應稅收入，但由企業家去找農民，問農民是否有

they’re interested in selling development rights to build a wind farm.

他們有興趣出售開發權來建造一個風力發電場。

And so what happens is that the developer collects a series of contracts, collects the

所以發生的事情是，開發商收集了一系列的合同，收集了。

– has the development rights and then gets various environmental permits and eventually

- 擁有開發權，然後獲得各種環保許可，最終獲得

has to get a contract for the power that would be produced from the wind site. All at this

必須獲得從該風電場生產的電力合同。所有這一切

point is just a bunch of pieces of paper. And based upon these different pieces of paper,

點只是一堆紙片。而根據這些不同的紙片。

the project developer gets financing to actually build the project.

項目開發商獲得融資以實際建設該項目。

And that kind of way of getting financing is called project finance. And so the problem

而這種獲得融資的方式叫做項目融資。所以問題是

with that structure is that there’s not much taxable income at the project level.

這種結構的特點是，在項目層面的應稅收入不多。

And so to give the project developer a tax credit, when there’s no taxable income,

所以要在沒有應稅收入的情況下，給項目開發商一個稅收優惠。

doesn’t really give that person any value. So the developer has to find somebody else

並沒有真正給這個人任何價值。所以開發者必須找別人

as a partner – what’s called a tax equity partner – that has taxable income that will

作為合夥人--即所謂的稅收權益合夥人--有應稅收入的人將會

participate in the project.

參加該項目。

And it’s really essentially a debt instrument. The tax equity provider provides financing

而它其實本質上是一種債務工具。稅收權益提供者提供融資

in exchange for a fixed payment and the tax equity partner gets the tax benefits. And

以換取固定的報酬，而稅收權益合夥人則獲得稅收優惠。而

so the 1603 program – I get it – sorry – one other point. So the challenge with

所以1603計劃--我明白了--對不起--還有一點。所以，挑戰與

tax equity is that the biggest provides of tax equity in the past were – or have been

稅收權益是，過去最大的稅收權益的提供是--或已經是

financial institutions.

金融機構；

So the biggest providers, for example, of tax equity were AIG, Wachovia and I’ve forgotten

是以，最大的供應商，例如，稅收權益是AIG，Wachovia和我已經忘記了。

the third one. (Laughter.) Oh, Lehman Brothers; how could I forget? So banks obviously don’t

第三個。(笑聲。)哦，雷曼兄弟，我怎麼會忘記呢？所以，銀行顯然不

have much taxable income at this point since they have a lot of losses. So the tax equity

此時有多少應稅收入，因為他們有很多損失。所以稅收權益

market is pretty limited and it’s pretty expensive for developers.

市場是相當有限的，而且對於開發商來說，它的價格相當昂貴。

So the 1603 program was part of the recovery act, gave developers the option of – for

是以，1603計劃是恢復法案的一部分，給了開發商選擇--對於... ...

the investment tax credit – of getting a cash grant from U.S. Treasury. And that meant

的投資稅收抵免--從美國財政部獲得現金補助。而這意味著

that they did not need to go to the tax equity market. So it has been a tremendously successful

他們不需要到稅務股權市場去。是以，這是一個非常成功的

program because it’s helped many projects be developed that otherwise would not have

因為它幫助了許多項目的開發，否則就不會有

been developed. And unfortunately, that program – the 1603 program – is set to expire

被開發出來。而不幸的是，該計劃--1603計劃--即將到期。

at the end of December of this year.

今年12月底，。

And in fact, kind of the – the kind of grim news for the sector is that a number of the

事實上，對該行業來說，一種------------------------------------------------------黯淡的消息是，一些

federal programs that have been in place to support renewables are either expiring or

為支持可再生能源而實施的聯邦計劃，要麼是到期，要麼是

close to expiring or have expired. So the – there was a 1705 program for providing

接近到期或已經到期。所以--有一個1705年的計劃，用於提供

loan guarantees. That expired at the end of September, just, you know, this last month.

貸款擔保。在九月底到期，只是，你知道，上個月。

Then we have the 1603 program expiring. And then you’ve got the production tax credit

然後我們有1603計劃到期。然後你已經得到了生產稅收抵免。

for wind expiring. And there are others that I’m not even going to talk about that are

為風到期。還有一些我都不打算說的，就是

also on the verge of ending. So we’re – the industry really faces significant challenges.

也在結束的邊緣。所以我們--這個行業確實面臨著重大的挑戰。

MS. O'NEILL: Thank you. So we – just via Twitter – have a question about your Huffington

MS. O'NEILL: Thank you.O'尼爾：謝謝你。所以我們--只是通過Twitter--有一個關於你的赫芬頓的問題。

Post blog yesterday on clean energy markets.

昨日發佈關於清潔能源市場的博客。

MR. KAUFFMAN: Yeah?

先生：是嗎？考夫曼：是嗎？

MS. O'NEILL: We spend 8 to 10 times more on deployment than R&D already. Why do you say

女士。O'尼爾：我們在部署上的花費已經是R&D的8到10倍了。為什麼你說

that we should focus more on deployment? Isn’t the main challenge of clean energy that it’s

我們應該更加註重部署？清潔能源的主要挑戰不就是它的。

too expensive and technologically imperfect?

太貴了，技術也不完善？

MR. KAUFFMAN: OK. Well, I appreciate that question. I think there is the wide perception

考夫曼先生：好的。考夫曼：好的，我感謝這個問題。我認為有一種廣泛的看法

that renewable energy is not reliable or still too expensive. And I think that –certainly

可再生能源不可靠，或者說太昂貴。我認為

from a reliability standpoint, you know – proven technology of wind and solar is extremely

從可靠性的角度來看，你知道 - 風能和太陽能的成熟技術是非常的

reliable now.

可靠的了。

So the cost question is a – is a kind of complicated one because the first point is,

是以，成本問題是一個複雜的問題，因為第一點是：

of course, there is no cost of carbon for conventional sources of energy. And so the

當然，傳統能源是沒有碳成本的。所以

administration feels very much that there ought to be eventually a cost of carbon. And

政府非常認為，最終應該有一個碳成本。而且

that would change the cost comparison quite considerably.

這將大大改變成本比較。

And the second issue in terms of the cost point is that it’s not completely a level

而第二個問題，從成本點來說，它並不是完全的一個水準。

playing field in terms of renewable energy and conventional sources of energy because

在可再生能源和傳統能源方面的競爭環境，因為

there are many historical subsidies that conventional source of energy has received. So in any case,

傳統能源在歷史上獲得過很多補貼。所以無論如何。

it’s not a completely level playing field. But nonetheless, as I said at the beginning,

這不是一個完全公平的競爭環境。但儘管如此，就像我一開始說的那樣。

those costs are coming down, for renewable energy, quite considerably so that this grid

對於可再生能源來說，這些成本都在下降，所以這個電網的成本是相當大的。

parity idea is not very far ahead.

平價的想法不是很超前。

So I think that the point that I was trying to make in the post is that we’ve – one

所以我認為，我在文章中想說的一點是，我們已經--一。

of the reasons why I think we’ve had challenges in the United States in the last almost 40

我認為我們在過去近40年裡在美國遇到挑戰的原因之一是

years is that we – by trying to put – by not having quite the right balance between

幾年來，我們--通過試圖把--通過沒有完全正確的平衡之間的---------------------------------------。

innovation and deployment is we’ve set up a model where we say because renewable energy

創新和部署是我們已經建立了一個模式，我們說因為可再生能源

is really expensive, let’s innovate, innovate, innovate until renewable energy gets at equivalent

是真的很貴，讓我們創新，創新，創新，直到可再生能源得到在等價的

cost as conventional sources of energy, and then we’ll deploy.

成本作為傳統能源，然後我們將部署。

And so I think there are a couple of problems with that model. The first, as I said, is

是以，我認為這種模式有幾個問題。第一個問題，正如我所說，是

that – for an inventor. The first problem, as I said, is that the playing field isn’t

那--對於一個發明家來說。第一個問題，正如我所說的，是競爭的環境不是

completely level. So the innovator has to overcome that first problem, which is that

完全水準。所以創新者必須克服第一個問題，就是

market prices for conventional energy are, in a sense, tilted against renewable energy,

傳統能源的市場價格在某種意義上對可再生能源不利；

OK. But we’ve already talked about that.

好吧，但我們已經談過了但我們已經談過這個問題了

But the second part, I think, is an even bigger obstacle which is the conventional energy

但第二部分，我認為是一個更大的障礙，那就是傳統能源。

industry is obviously a very mature industry and it’s a production industry where there

行業顯然是一個非常成熟的行業，它是一個生產行業，在這裡有

are real scale advantages in manufacturing. And so it’s very tough for an inventor to

是製造業真正的規模優勢。是以，它是非常艱難的發明家，以實現

come up with a device that’s not only going to overcome the first obstacle, but has to

想出一個設備，不僅要克服第一個障礙，而且要有

overcome the – being able to achieve cost competitiveness without the benefits of scale.

克服----能夠在沒有規模效益的情況下獲得成本競爭力；

And so the – what we’ve seen in other countries – and one of the reasons, for

所以，我們在其他國家所看到的，也是其中一個原因。

example, why wind and solar have dropped so much in cost – is the fact that this – the

例如，為什麼風能和太陽能的成本下降了這麼多，就是因為這個--。

industry has gotten bigger and it’s had the benefits of scale economics. And so I

產業做大了，它有規模經濟的好處。所以我

think that – I think – I think we will find, and have already found, that the bigger

我認為，我認為，我認為我們會發現，並且已經發現，越大的

the markets, the more innovation we draw in.

市場，我們吸引的創新越多。

And maybe just the last point to make that really, really clear: If you think about your

也許只是最後一點，使真正的，真的很清楚：如果你認為你的。

– you know, you got a PC in front of you. There’s a chip in that PC that’s gotten

- 你知道，你有一臺電腦在你面前。有一個芯片在那臺電腦得到了。

better and better. You know, the famous Moore’s Law that people talk about. Well, Moore’s

越來越好。你知道，著名的摩爾定律，人們談論。那麼，摩爾定律

Law is not a fundamental law of physics. My boss is a Nobel Prize winner in physics, so

法則不是物理學的基本規律。我的老闆是諾貝爾物理學獎得主，所以。

I could probably – you know, Secretary Chu probably – I get – I’ll probably get

我大概可以--你知道，朱書記大概--我得到--我大概會得到。

into trouble with him on this point. (Laughter.)

在這一點上與他發生了衝突。(笑聲)

But it’s not a law of physics, I don’t believe. But the reason that chips’ performance

但這不是物理定律，我不相信。但芯片性能的原因

improve so predictably is because computers sell into a market. So – and the challenge