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  • LIISA O’NEILL: Welcome, and thanks for joining us on energy.gov for the latest edition of

    LIISA O'NEILL:歡迎,感謝您加入我們能源網的最新一期的 "能源網"。

  • Energy Matters. I’m Liisa O'Neill, a new media specialist here at the Department of

    能源事務。我是Liisa O'Neill,新媒體專家在這裡的部門。

  • Energy. Today I’m joined by Richard Kauffman, senior adviser to the secretary of energy.

    能源。今天我請來了能源部部長的高級顧問理查德-考夫曼。

  • Kauffman recently joined the department from the private sector where he served as the

    考夫曼最近從私營部門加入了該部門,他在那裡擔任的職務是

  • CEO of Good Energies, a global investor in renewable energy and energy-efficiency technologies.

    Good Energies的首席執行官,該公司是可再生能源和能效技術的全球投資者。

  • Were here today to talk about both the challenges and opportunities of renewable

    今天我們在這裡討論可再生能源的挑戰和機遇。

  • energy innovation and deployment.

    能源創新和部署;

  • Thank you for being with us today, Mr. Kauffman. If you could start with just talking a little

    考夫曼先生,感謝你今天和我們在一起。如果你能開始只是說一點

  • bit about your background and what drew you to the Department of Energy from the private

    談談你的背景,以及是什麼吸引你從私營企業到能源部來的

  • sector.

    部門。

  • RICHARD KAUFFMAN: Well, it’s great to be here. Thanks a lot, and thank you all for

    嗯,很高興來到這裡。非常感謝,並感謝大家

  • tuning in. I look forward to answering a lot of questions. So the first question, Liisa,

    調入。我期待著回答很多問題。所以第一個問題,莉莎

  • I guess, is about me. So I guess my interest in renewable energy dates back to really a

    我想,是關於我的。我想我對可再生能源的興趣可以追溯到

  • long time ago. It was my first year in college. And that was the year of the first energy

    很久以前的事了。那是我上大學的第一年。而那一年是第一個能源

  • crisis. And I had just gotten my first car and I thought: This is it. I’m never going

    危機。我剛剛得到了我的第一輛車,我想。這是它。我永遠不會

  • to be able to drive my car because there isn’t any more gasoline, because if people remember,

    能夠開我的車,因為沒有更多的汽油,因為如果人們記得,

  • that’s when everybody was waiting in long lines for gas.

    那時候大家都在排長隊等著加油。

  • And so actually it’s almost now 40 years later, and we haven’t really made that much

    所以其實現在已經快40年了,我們並沒有真正的做那麼多的事情

  • progress in the adoption of renewable energy, at least in the United States. We import more

    至少在美國,我們在採用可再生能源方面取得了進展。我們進口更多的能源。

  • oil than we did then by a significant margin. And so whenand then most recently I was,

    比我們當時的油價高出一大截。所以當--然後最近我。

  • as you observed, the CEO of Good Energies. And that was an opportunity to really see

    正如你所看到的,好能源的CEO。而這是一個機會,真正看到

  • through being an investor in renewable energy what the obstacles were. And so when Secretary

    通過成為可再生能源的投資者,有什麼障礙。是以,當祕書

  • Chu called me up and asked me if I would be his adviser on issues of financing and deployment

    朱先生給我打電話,問我是否願意做他的融資和部署方面的顧問?

  • of renewable energy, I thought, well, this is really a great opportunity to serve and

    我想,這真的是一個很好的機會來服務於可再生資源的發展。

  • to work on some of the issues that I think are the big obstacles.

    來解決一些我認為是大障礙的問題。

  • MS. O’NEILL: Great. So are you ready for our first question?

    奧尼爾女士:奧尼爾: 很好。那麼你準備好回答我們的第一個問題了嗎?

  • MR. KAUFFMAN: I’m ready for your first question.

    考夫曼先生:我已經準備好回答你的第一個問題。我可以回答你的第一個問題了。

  • MS. O’NEILL: (Chuckles.) All right.

    奧尼爾: (笑)好吧。

  • MR. KAUFFMAN: And by the way, if people have very technical questions or if I’m not being

    考夫曼先生:順便說一句,如果人們有非常技術性的問題,或者我沒有說錯的話,我可以告訴大家。順便說一句,如果人們有非常技術性的問題,或者如果我沒有被...。

  • technical enough, or too technical, you know, kind of let me know.

    足夠的技術,或太技術, 你知道,那種讓我知道。

  • MS. O'NEILL: All right. Steve (sp), via email, asks: We have unmatched university, national

    MS. O'尼爾:奧'尼爾:好的。史蒂夫(sp),通過電子郵件問道。我們有無與倫比的大學,國家

  • and private research laboratories, yet everything from color TV to biotechnology seems to be

    和私人研究實驗室,但從彩色電視機到生物技術的一切似乎都是

  • exploited by other countries. New energy technologies represent a tremendous research, manufacturing

    被其他國家利用。新能源技術是一個巨大的研究、製造和開發的領域。

  • and deployment job resource. What are we doing to keep it American?

    和部署工作資源。我們怎麼做才能保持它的美國性?

  • MR. KAUFFMAN: Well, it’s a – Steve, that’s a great question. And I think it’s a – it’s

    先生:嗯,這是一個--史蒂夫,這是一個很好的問題。KAUFFMAN:嗯,這是一個--史蒂夫,這是一個很好的問題。我認為這是一個... ...

  • a very interesting time – a critical time, actually, in the renewable energy business,

    一個非常有趣的時刻--實際上是可再生能源業務的關鍵時刻。

  • because everybody talks about it kind of being in the future. But actually the future is

    因為每個人都在談論它那種在未來。但實際上,未來是

  • really, really close because the costs for renewable energy have really come down quite

    真的,真的很接近,因為可再生能源的成本真的下降了不少。

  • dramatically.

    急劇。

  • So in the last couple of years the cost of solar energy has come down 70 percent. The

    所以在過去的幾年裡,太陽能的成本已經下降了70%。這

  • cost of wind has come down 40 percent. And so people talk about grid parity, which is

    風力發電的成本已經下降了40%。所以人們都在談論電網平價,也就是

  • the cost of renewables relative to conventional sources of energy. That’s really within

    可再生能源相對於傳統能源的成本。這確實在

  • sight; in other words, renewables will be competitive with conventional sources of energy

    換句話說,可再生能源將與傳統能源相競爭

  • really in a very few years.

    真正在很幾年內。

  • And so it means that the market globally is beginning to grow very rapidly and it’s

    所以這意味著全球的市場開始非常快速的增長,而且它的。

  • growing for a bunch of reasons. First, a lot of the generation capacity in Europe and the

    增長的原因有很多。首先,歐洲和美國的很多發電量都在增長。

  • United States was built after World War II and it’s come to the end of its useful life.

    美國是在二戰後建成的,它的使用壽命已經到了盡頭。

  • So it needs to be all replaced. And then emerging markets represent a very substantial demand

    所以需要全部更換。然後新興市場代表了一個非常大的需求

  • for energy.

    為能源。

  • If you look at a picture of the Earth at night, half the world is dark, which means they don’t

    如果你在晚上看一張地球的照片,世界上有一半的地方都是黑暗的,這意味著他們沒有...

  • have any electricity. So just in the same way that if you think about what happened

    有任何電。所以同樣的,如果你想想發生了什麼事

  • in the telephone business, where a lot of emerging markets never built wire line technology

    在電話業務中,很多新興市場從來沒有建立過有線電視技術

  • went right to mobile phonesthe same thing is going to likely happen with renewable

    - 在行動電話上,同樣的事情很可能發生在可再生資源上。

  • energy, which is another kind of distributed solution. So the size of the prize is very

    能源,這也是另一種分佈式解決方案。所以獎金的大小是很

  • substantial.

    大量的。

  • And so it means that a number of other countries see this as a very critical industry and theyre

    是以,這意味著其他一些國家將其視為一個非常關鍵的行業,他們正在。

  • doing quite a lot to support the industry. And the United States, as Steve points out,

    做了相當多的工作來支持這個行業。而美國,正如史蒂夫所指出的。

  • has fantastic innovation; but we can’t seem to get things quite right in terms of the

    有夢幻般的創新;但我們似乎不能完全正確地處理好在

  • other elements ofthat’s going to make us a real winner in the race. And I think

    其他元素的--這將使我們成為比賽中的真正贏家。而我認為

  • in Steve’s question, I think he’s gothe’s got it kind of right: that

    - 在史蒂夫的問題中,我認為他得到了 - 他得到了它的那種正確的:該

  • you needin order for us to be able to get the jobs and be able to fully take advantage

    你需要--為了讓我們能夠得到工作,並能夠充分地利用。

  • of this opportunity to really seize the prize, weve got to get all the legs of the stool

    趁著這個機會,要想真正抓住這個機會,我們就得把所有的凳子都搬過來。

  • right.

    吧。

  • So we probably have the innovation stool really pretty right, but we don’t have the market

    所以我們可能有創新的凳子真的很漂亮吧,但是我們沒有市場。

  • development right, and we can talk more about that. But we need toyou need to develop

    發展的權利,我們可以多談談。但我們需要--你需要發展

  • markets.

    市場。

  • We don’t have the financing right because withcost of financing in the United States

    我們沒有融資權,因為美國的融資成本。

  • is very high. And soand then this whole question of manufacturingyou need all

    是非常高的。所以--然後這整個製造的問題--你需要所有的東西。

  • those things in place because there are feedback loops, for example, between manufacturing

    因為有反饋迴路,例如,在製造業之間的反饋迴路。

  • and the market. That’s what makes competitors really, really goodis that if they know

    和市場。這就是競爭者真正優秀的原因--如果他們知道

  • what’s going on in the market and can feedback in to the innovation engine and kind of vice-versa.

    市場上發生的事情,並能反饋到創新引擎上,反之亦然。

  • And so if you think about, again, in the telecom industry, the fantastic, domestic market we

    所以如果你再想想,在電信行業,夢幻般的,國內市場我們

  • have has helped create all this innovation. There’s – you think about Apple and all

    有幫助創造所有這些創新。有 - 你想想蘋果和所有的

  • the things that Apple has done, it’s because there is this fantastic, domestic market which

    蘋果公司所做的事情,是因為有這個夢幻般的,國內的市場,這。

  • in turn feeds back to generate more innovation.

    反過來又能反饋產生更多的創新。

  • MS. O'NEILL: Great. Thank you. So weve also had a couple questions regarding the

    MS. O'NEILL:O'尼爾:很好。謝謝你。所以,我們也有幾個問題,是關於

  • 1603 program. David Colt (ph), via Facebook, asks: What can the DOE do to extend 1603 or

    1603計劃。David Colt(音譯)通過Facebook問道。能源部能做些什麼來延長1603計劃或...

  • something like it to open investments to those without tax equity? Likewise, Tom (sp) from

    類似的東西,向沒有稅收權益的人開放投資?同樣,湯姆(sp)從

  • Georgia asks, via email, is there any chance to have the 30 percent federal grant extended?

    喬治亞州通過電子郵件詢問,是否有機會延長30%的聯邦撥款?

  • MR. KAUFFMAN: OK. Well, this is where it may get too technical for some or maybe not technical

    考夫曼先生:好的。好的,這是對某些人來說技術性太強的地方,也可能不是技術性的。

  • enough for others, butso I’ll need some coaching from people that are tuning

    對別人來說足夠了,但是--所以我需要一些人的指導,在調諧

  • in as to whether I’ve got it right or wrong.

    在於我的判斷是對是錯。

  • So I think both these questions are really quite similar and it really goes to the nature

    所以,我覺得這兩個問題真的很相似,這真的是涉及到本質的問題。

  • of how the United States gives support to renewable energy, which is in the form of

    美國是如何支持可再生能源的?

  • tax support both in terms of tax credits as well astax credits for investment, something

    稅收支持,包括稅收抵免和投資稅收抵免,這一點是很重要的

  • called the Investment Tax Credit, as well as in the form of production tax credits.

    稱為投資稅減免,以及以生產稅減免的形式。

  • And this is not really unusual. This is the way the United States gives support to other

    而這其實並不罕見。這就是美國向其他國家提供支持的方式。

  • industries, including the oil and gas industry and certain parts of the health care industry.

    行業,包括石油和天然氣行業以及保健行業的某些部分。

  • So it’s notthis is notthis part is not unusual.

    所以這不是--這不是--這部分並不稀奇。

  • The part that’s challenging for the renewable energy industry is that many projects are

    對於可再生能源行業來說,具有挑戰性的部分是很多項目是

  • developedthe windthink about a wind or solar park if youve ever seen one of

    開發的--風--想想看,如果你見過風能或太陽能公園,你就會發現它是一個很好的選擇。

  • those. Those are projects that are developed bynot big companies that have a lot of

    那些。這些項目都是由--而不是由那些有很多的大公司開發的。

  • taxable income, but by entrepreneurs that go and find a farmer and ask the farmer if

    應稅收入,但由企業家去找農民,問農民是否有

  • theyre interested in selling development rights to build a wind farm.

    他們有興趣出售開發權來建造一個風力發電場。

  • And so what happens is that the developer collects a series of contracts, collects the

    所以發生的事情是,開發商收集了一系列的合同,收集了。

  • has the development rights and then gets various environmental permits and eventually

    - 擁有開發權,然後獲得各種環保許可,最終獲得

  • has to get a contract for the power that would be produced from the wind site. All at this

    必須獲得從該風電場生產的電力合同。所有這一切

  • point is just a bunch of pieces of paper. And based upon these different pieces of paper,

    點只是一堆紙片。而根據這些不同的紙片。

  • the project developer gets financing to actually build the project.

    項目開發商獲得融資以實際建設該項目。

  • And that kind of way of getting financing is called project finance. And so the problem

    而這種獲得融資的方式叫做項目融資。所以問題是

  • with that structure is that there’s not much taxable income at the project level.

    這種結構的特點是,在項目層面的應稅收入不多。

  • And so to give the project developer a tax credit, when there’s no taxable income,

    所以要在沒有應稅收入的情況下,給項目開發商一個稅收優惠。

  • doesn’t really give that person any value. So the developer has to find somebody else

    並沒有真正給這個人任何價值。所以開發者必須找別人

  • as a partnerwhat’s called a tax equity partnerthat has taxable income that will

    作為合夥人--即所謂的稅收權益合夥人--有應稅收入的人將會

  • participate in the project.

    參加該項目。

  • And it’s really essentially a debt instrument. The tax equity provider provides financing

    而它其實本質上是一種債務工具。稅收權益提供者提供融資

  • in exchange for a fixed payment and the tax equity partner gets the tax benefits. And

    以換取固定的報酬,而稅收權益合夥人則獲得稅收優惠。而

  • so the 1603 program – I get itsorryone other point. So the challenge with

    所以1603計劃--我明白了--對不起--還有一點。所以,挑戰與

  • tax equity is that the biggest provides of tax equity in the past wereor have been

    稅收權益是,過去最大的稅收權益的提供是--或已經是

  • financial institutions.

    金融機構;

  • So the biggest providers, for example, of tax equity were AIG, Wachovia and I’ve forgotten

    是以,最大的供應商,例如,稅收權益是AIG,Wachovia和我已經忘記了。

  • the third one. (Laughter.) Oh, Lehman Brothers; how could I forget? So banks obviously don’t

    第三個。(笑聲。)哦,雷曼兄弟,我怎麼會忘記呢?所以,銀行顯然不

  • have much taxable income at this point since they have a lot of losses. So the tax equity

    此時有多少應稅收入,因為他們有很多損失。所以稅收權益

  • market is pretty limited and it’s pretty expensive for developers.

    市場是相當有限的,而且對於開發商來說,它的價格相當昂貴。

  • So the 1603 program was part of the recovery act, gave developers the option offor

    是以,1603計劃是恢復法案的一部分,給了開發商選擇--對於... ...

  • the investment tax creditof getting a cash grant from U.S. Treasury. And that meant

    的投資稅收抵免--從美國財政部獲得現金補助。而這意味著

  • that they did not need to go to the tax equity market. So it has been a tremendously successful

    他們不需要到稅務股權市場去。是以,這是一個非常成功的

  • program because it’s helped many projects be developed that otherwise would not have

    因為它幫助了許多項目的開發,否則就不會有

  • been developed. And unfortunately, that programthe 1603 programis set to expire

    被開發出來。而不幸的是,該計劃--1603計劃--即將到期。

  • at the end of December of this year.

    今年12月底,。

  • And in fact, kind of thethe kind of grim news for the sector is that a number of the

    事實上,對該行業來說,一種------------------------------------------------------黯淡的消息是,一些

  • federal programs that have been in place to support renewables are either expiring or

    為支持可再生能源而實施的聯邦計劃,要麼是到期,要麼是

  • close to expiring or have expired. So thethere was a 1705 program for providing

    接近到期或已經到期。所以--有一個1705年的計劃,用於提供

  • loan guarantees. That expired at the end of September, just, you know, this last month.

    貸款擔保。在九月底到期,只是,你知道,上個月。

  • Then we have the 1603 program expiring. And then youve got the production tax credit

    然後我們有1603計劃到期。然後你已經得到了生產稅收抵免。

  • for wind expiring. And there are others that I’m not even going to talk about that are

    為風到期。還有一些我都不打算說的,就是

  • also on the verge of ending. So werethe industry really faces significant challenges.

    也在結束的邊緣。所以我們--這個行業確實面臨著重大的挑戰。

  • MS. O'NEILL: Thank you. So wejust via Twitterhave a question about your Huffington

    MS. O'NEILL: Thank you.O'尼爾:謝謝你。所以我們--只是通過Twitter--有一個關於你的赫芬頓的問題。

  • Post blog yesterday on clean energy markets.

    昨日發佈關於清潔能源市場的博客。

  • MR. KAUFFMAN: Yeah?

    先生:是嗎?考夫曼:是嗎?

  • MS. O'NEILL: We spend 8 to 10 times more on deployment than R&D already. Why do you say

    女士。O'尼爾:我們在部署上的花費已經是R&D的8到10倍了。為什麼你說

  • that we should focus more on deployment? Isn’t the main challenge of clean energy that it’s

    我們應該更加註重部署?清潔能源的主要挑戰不就是它的。

  • too expensive and technologically imperfect?

    太貴了,技術也不完善?

  • MR. KAUFFMAN: OK. Well, I appreciate that question. I think there is the wide perception

    考夫曼先生:好的。考夫曼:好的,我感謝這個問題。我認為有一種廣泛的看法

  • that renewable energy is not reliable or still too expensive. And I think thatcertainly

    可再生能源不可靠,或者說太昂貴。我認為

  • from a reliability standpoint, you knowproven technology of wind and solar is extremely

    從可靠性的角度來看,你知道 - 風能和太陽能的成熟技術是非常的

  • reliable now.

    可靠的了。

  • So the cost question is a – is a kind of complicated one because the first point is,

    是以,成本問題是一個複雜的問題,因為第一點是:

  • of course, there is no cost of carbon for conventional sources of energy. And so the

    當然,傳統能源是沒有碳成本的。所以

  • administration feels very much that there ought to be eventually a cost of carbon. And

    政府非常認為,最終應該有一個碳成本。而且

  • that would change the cost comparison quite considerably.

    這將大大改變成本比較。

  • And the second issue in terms of the cost point is that it’s not completely a level

    而第二個問題,從成本點來說,它並不是完全的一個水準。

  • playing field in terms of renewable energy and conventional sources of energy because

    在可再生能源和傳統能源方面的競爭環境,因為

  • there are many historical subsidies that conventional source of energy has received. So in any case,

    傳統能源在歷史上獲得過很多補貼。所以無論如何。

  • it’s not a completely level playing field. But nonetheless, as I said at the beginning,

    這不是一個完全公平的競爭環境。但儘管如此,就像我一開始說的那樣。

  • those costs are coming down, for renewable energy, quite considerably so that this grid

    對於可再生能源來說,這些成本都在下降,所以這個電網的成本是相當大的。

  • parity idea is not very far ahead.

    平價的想法不是很超前。

  • So I think that the point that I was trying to make in the post is that weveone

    所以我認為,我在文章中想說的一點是,我們已經--一。

  • of the reasons why I think weve had challenges in the United States in the last almost 40

    我認為我們在過去近40年裡在美國遇到挑戰的原因之一是

  • years is that weby trying to putby not having quite the right balance between

    幾年來,我們--通過試圖把--通過沒有完全正確的平衡之間的---------------------------------------。