It's been reported that WikiLeaks, your baby,

朱利安，歡迎

has, in the last few years

有報導說，你的心血「維基解密」

has released more classified documents

在過去幾年公佈的

than the rest of the world's media combined.

機密文件數量

Can that possibly be true?

已經比全球媒體加起來還多

Julian Assange: Yeah, can it possibly be true?

這是真的嗎？

It's a worry -- isn't it? -- that the rest of the world's media

是阿，這個問題

is doing such a bad job

令人擔憂，對吧，現在的媒體

that a little group of activists

都不曉得在幹麻

is able to release more

一群激進份子

of that type of information

公佈的機密文件

than the rest of the world press combined.

都比全球媒體

CA: How does it work?

加起來還要多

How do people release the documents?

你們是怎麼運作的？

And how do you secure their privacy?

你們如何獲取這些機密文件？

JA: So these are -- as far as we can tell --

還有怎麼維護告密者隱私？

classical whistleblowers,

就我所知，我們有些

and we have a number of ways for them

典型的告密者

to get information to us.

我們有些管道讓他們

So we use this state-of-the-art encryption

把機密文件拿給我們

to bounce stuff around the Internet, to hide trails,

然後用最先進解密技術

pass it through legal jurisdictions

利用網路隱藏資料來源

like Sweden and Belgium

透過有合法管轄權的國家

to enact those legal protections.

像瑞典、比利時

We get information in the mail,

來確保合法保護性

the regular postal mail,

我們用郵件收資料

encrypted or not,

一般郵遞文件

vet it like a regular news organization, format it --

不管有沒有加密

which is sometimes something that's quite hard to do,

像普通新聞媒體一樣檢審、編排

when you're talking about

有時候做起來還蠻困難的

giant databases of information --

因為我們收到的

release it to the public

資訊實在太多

and then defend ourselves

一方面要公開

against the inevitable legal and political attacks.

一方面又要處理

CA: So you make an effort to ensure

合法性、政治上的問題

the documents are legitimate,

所以你們花了一番功夫

but you actually

確保文件的正確性

almost never know who the identity of the source is?

但你們其實

JA: That's right, yeah. Very rarely do we ever know,

都不知道告密者身分？

and if we find out at some stage

沒錯，幾乎是不知道的

then we destroy that information as soon as possible.

如果後來知道了

(Phone ring) God damn it.

我們會盡快銷毀相關文件

(Laughter)

(鈴聲) 他媽的

CA: I think that's the CIA asking what the code is

(笑聲)

for a TED membership.

可能是CIA打來問

(Laughter)

TED成員代碼

So let's take [an] example, actually.

(笑聲)

This is something

舉個例子來說

you leaked a few years ago.

這是你

If we can have this document up ...

幾年前公佈的東西

So this was a story in Kenya a few years ago.

螢幕上可以看到

Can you tell us what you leaked and what happened?

這是幾年前發生在肯亞的事

JA: So this is the Kroll Report.

你可以說說詳細情形嗎？

This was a secret intelligence report

這是Kroll報告

commissioned by the Kenyan government

是肯亞政府在2004年

after its election in 2004.

大選後秘密調查的

Prior to 2004, Kenya was ruled

情資報告

by Daniel arap Moi

2004年之前，肯亞是由

for about 18 years.

Daniel arap Moi統治

He was a soft dictator of Kenya.

約18年之久

And when Kibaki got into power --

他是個軟式獨裁者

through a coalition of forces that were trying

後來Kibaki權力漸大

to clean up corruption in Kenya --

透過聯合各方的力量

they commissioned this report,

打擊肯亞的貪污腐敗

spent about two million pounds

他們花了兩百萬英鎊

on this and an associated report.

委託調查這份報告

And then the government sat on it

以及其他相關報告

and used it for political leverage on Moi,

後來政府用這份報告

who was the richest man --

拿來打壓Moi

still is the richest man -- in Kenya.

Moi是肯亞

It's the Holy Grail of Kenyan journalism.

最有錢的人

So I went there in 2007,

是肯亞新聞界的最想追蹤的目標

and we managed to get hold of this

所以我2007年到那，

just prior to the election --

成功的在大選前

the national election, December 28.

獲取這份資料

When we released that report,

當年大選是12月28日

we did so three days after the new president, Kibaki,

我們後來釋出這報告

had decided to pal up with

是在新總統Kibaki上任三天後

the man that he was going to clean out,

竟然決定和

Daniel arap Moi,

他的前政治敵手

so this report then

Daniel arap Moi搭檔

became a dead albatross

結果這份報告

around President Kibaki's neck.

變成他事業上的負擔

CA: And -- I mean, to cut a long story short --

害慘了Kibaki總統

word of the report leaked into Kenya,

所以長話短說

not from the official media, but indirectly,

這份秘密情報

and in your opinion, it actually shifted the election.

並非由正式媒體報導

JA: Yeah. So this became front page of the Guardian

你認為，這因此改變大選結果

and was then printed in all the surrounding countries of Kenya,

沒錯，還登上衛報頭條

in Tanzanian and South African press.

後來肯亞附近的國家

And so it came in from the outside.

坦桑尼亞、南非也有報導

And that, after a couple of days,

之後傳到肯亞

made the Kenyan press feel safe to talk about it.

之後幾天

And it ran for 20 nights straight on Kenyan TV,

肯亞媒體認為可以討論了

shifted the vote by 10 percent,

他們電視台連播了20天

according to a Kenyan intelligence report,

根據肯亞情報分析

which changed the result of the election.

我們因此影響了一成選票

CA: Wow, so your leak

後來改變了選舉結果

really substantially changed the world?

所以你的秘密情報

JA: Yep.

確實的改變了世界？

(Applause)

沒錯

CA: Here's -- We're going to just show

(掌聲)

a short clip from this

我們現在來看

Baghdad airstrike video.

一段影片

The video itself is longer,

巴格達空襲影片

but here's a short clip.

影片本來較長

This is -- this is intense material, I should warn you.

我們只播一小段

Radio: ... just fuckin', once you get on 'em just open 'em up.

警告大家這段影片很

I see your element, uh, got about four Humvees, uh, out along ...

無線電：看到目標後就打爆他們！

You're clear. All right. Firing.

看到你們分隊了，四台悍馬

Let me know when you've got them. Let's shoot.

看到目標，開火

Light 'em all up.

看到目標後回報，開火！

C'mon, fire!

打爆他們！

(Machine gun fire)

開火！

Keep shoot 'n. Keep shoot 'n.

(槍聲)

(Machine gun fire)

繼續、繼續

Keep shoot 'n.

(槍聲)

Hotel ... Bushmaster Two-Six, Bushmaster Two-Six,

繼續開火

we need to move, time now!

（代號）

All right, we just engaged all eight individuals.

快點移動

Yeah, we see two birds [helicopters], and we're still firing.

剛剛解決了八個人

Roger. I got 'em.

我們還看到兩個，開火中

Two-Six, this is Two-Six, we're mobile.

收到。交給我。

Oops, I'm sorry. What was going on?

（代號）

God damn it, Kyle. All right, hahaha. I hit 'em.

抱歉，剛剛怎麼了？

CA: So, what was the impact of that?

媽的，Kyle，好了，哈哈，我射中了

JA: The impact on the people who worked on it

這影片的衝擊是什麼？

was severe.

負責這起事件的人

We ended up sending two people to Baghdad

後果很嚴重

to further research that story.

我們後來派了兩個人到巴格達

So this is just the first of three attacks

蒐集進一步消息

that occurred in that scene.

這段影片只是三場攻擊的

CA: So, I mean, 11 people died in that attack, right,

第一場而已

including two Reuters employees?

這次攻擊共有11人死亡

JA: Yeah. Two Reuters employees,

包含兩名路透社員工，對嗎？

two young children were wounded.

對，兩名路透社員工身亡

There were between 18 and 26 people killed all together.

兩個小孩受傷

CA: And releasing this caused

總共18到26人死亡

widespread outrage.

公開這段影片

What was the key element of this

引起一片譁然

that actually caused the outrage, do you think?

你覺得造成如此激烈反應

JA: I don't know. I guess people can see

的關鍵是什麼？

the gross disparity in force.

我猜是因為人們

You have guys walking in a relaxed way down the street,

看到那種武力的差距

and then an Apache helicopter sitting up at one kilometer

有人悠閒的在街上走

firing 30-millimeter cannon shells

然後一架阿帕契直升機就空襲

on everyone --

30釐米的子彈

looking for any excuse to do so --

就這樣狂掃地面上所有人

and killing people rescuing the wounded.

他們找任何理由開火

And there was two journalists involved that clearly weren't insurgents

連後來去救傷者的人都不放過。

because that's their full-time job.

裡頭有兩名記者，明顯的不是民兵，

CA: I mean, there's been this U.S. intelligence analyst,

記者是他們的全職工作。

Bradley Manning, arrested,

美國陸軍情報分析員，

and it's alleged that he confessed in a chat room

Bradley Manning被捕。

to have leaked this video to you,

據說他已經承認，

along with 280,000

把影片洩漏給你們，

classified U.S. embassy cables.

以及其他28萬筆

I mean, did he?

美國機密外交電文。

JA: We have denied receiving those cables.

是真的嗎？

He has been charged,

我們已經否認收到那些電文。

about five days ago,

他在五天前，

with obtaining 150,000 cables

已經被起訴，

and releasing 50.

理由是獲取15萬筆電文

Now, we had released,

和外洩50筆。

early in the year,

我們年初

a cable from the Reykjavik U.S. embassy,

公佈了

but this is not necessarily connected.

雷克雅未克(冰島)美國大使館電文。

I mean, I was a known visitor of that embassy.

不過兩者並無關聯。

CA: I mean, if you did receive thousands

因為我自己就是大使館的常客。

of U.S. embassy diplomatic cables ...

那如果你有收到那幾萬筆的

JA: We would have released them. (CA: You would?)

機密外交電文...

JA: Yeah. (CA: Because?)

- 我們會公佈　　- 你會？

JA: Well, because these sort of things

- 會的　　- 因為？

reveal what the true state

因為這些文件

of, say,

真實呈現

Arab governments are like,

那些

the true human-rights abuses in those governments.

阿拉伯政府的立場

If you look at declassified cables,

以及政府剝奪人權的證據。

that's the sort of material that's there.

這些機密電文，

CA: So let's talk a little more broadly about this.

都寫得清清楚楚。

I mean, in general, what's your philosophy?

我們廣泛一點談好了。

Why is it right

你的個人哲學是什麼？

to encourage leaking of secret information?

為什麼

JA: Well, there's a question as to what sort of information is important in the world,

公開這些機密文件是正確的事？

what sort of information

這問題涉及到，哪些情報對於社會來說是重要的，

can achieve reform.

哪些情報

And there's a lot of information.

可以改變社會。

So information that organizations

這種情報多的很。

are spending economic effort into concealing,

許多公司花大把銀子

that's a really good signal

想隱藏的機密資料，

that when the information gets out,

就是我們鎖定的方向。

there's a hope of it doing some good --

當那些資料公開，

because the organizations that know it best,

我們相信能有正面影響。

that know it from the inside out,

因為這些公司不可告人的資料，

are spending work to conceal it.

他們內部最清楚，

And that's what we've found in practice,

也費心的想阻止資料外洩。

and that's what the history of journalism is.

這是我們實際的觀察，

CA: But are there risks with that,

也是新聞學的起源。

either to the individuals concerned

但不論是個人，

or indeed to society at large,

或是社會大眾來講，

where leaking can actually have

洩漏這些資料都有風險，

an unintended consequence?

洩密很可能導致

JA: Not that we have seen with anything we have released.

意想不到的後果?

I mean, we have a harm immunization policy.

我們所公佈的資料還沒有發生過這種事。

We have a way of dealing with information

我們有傷害防疫政策，

that has sort of personal --

處理比較私密一點的

personally identifying information in it.

個人資料上，

But there are legitimate secrets --

以及會透露個人身分的文件。

you know, your records with your doctor;

但有些合法的秘密，

that's a legitimate secret --

像是醫療紀錄

but we deal with whistleblowers that are coming forward

我們並不會公開。

that are really sort of well-motivated.

我們所接觸的告密者

CA: So they are well-motivated.

動機都是善意的。

And what would you say to, for example,

善意的動機。

the, you know, the parent of someone

那，假如說

whose son is out serving the U.S. military,

有個家長

and he says, "You know what,

他的兒子正在美軍服役

you've put up something that someone had an incentive to put out.

他會說：

It shows a U.S. soldier laughing

你不應該洩漏這種機密才對。

at people dying.

影片中美軍面對

That gives the impression, has given the impression,

死者大笑。

to millions of people around the world

這樣全世界成千上萬人

that U.S. soldiers are inhuman people.

當然會自然而然的認為

Actually, they're not. My son isn't. How dare you?"

美軍都很不人道。

What would you say to that?

但我兒子才不是這樣，你太過分了

JA: Yeah, we do get a lot of that.

你的回應是什麼？

But remember, the people in Baghdad,

我們的確收到很多這樣的回應。

the people in Iraq, the people in Afghanistan --

請記得，巴格達的平民、

they don't need to see the video;

伊拉克的平民、阿富汗的平民，

they see it every day.

他們並不用看影片，

So it's not going to change their opinion. It's not going to change their perception.

這在他們生活每天真實上演

That's what they see every day.

影片並不會改變他們的意見或看法。

It will change the perception and opinion

因為他們每天都看得到。

of the people who are paying for it all,

但那些為這場戰爭買單的人

and that's our hope.

看法會有所改變。

CA: So you found a way to shine light

這是我們的希望。

into what you see

所以你找到方法

as these sort of dark secrets in companies and in government.

以你所看到的

Light is good.

來照亮、點亮公司、政府的黑暗面。

But do you see any irony in the fact that,

光明是好的。

in order for you to shine that light,

但你不覺得為了光明

you have to, yourself,

你必須用這種

create secrecy around your sources?

極度小心的方式

JA: Not really. I mean, we don't have

非常的諷刺嗎？

any WikiLeaks dissidents yet.

也還好，我們還沒遇到

We don't have sources who are dissidents on other sources.

強烈的「維基解密」反對者。

Should they come forward, that would be a tricky situation for us,

也沒有告密者反對我們公佈的其他來源。

but we're presumably acting in such a way

這種事如果發生，應該會很難處理。

that people feel

我們還是照原定的

morally compelled

讓這些人

to continue our mission, not to screw it up.

受到道德驅使

CA: I'd actually be interested, just based on what we've heard so far --

繼續他們的任務，而不是放棄。

I'm curious as to the opinion in the TED audience.

就我們剛剛看到的、討論到的，

You know, there might be a couple of views