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Translator: Joseph Geni Reviewer: Morton Bast
很久以前,世界就像是一個大且運作不良的家庭。
Once upon a time, the world was a big, dysfunctional family.
由一對強而有力的父母經營,
It was run by the great and powerful parents,
而人們是無助
and the people were helpless
且不懷抱希望的調皮小孩。
and hopeless naughty children.
如果有比較吵鬧的小孩
If any of the more rowdier children questioned
質疑父母的權威,他們會被責罵。
the authority of the parents, they were scolded.
如果他們跑到父母的房間裡探險,
If they went exploring into the parents' rooms,
或者甚至跑到隱密的檔案室內,他們會被處罰,
or even into the secret filing cabinets, they were punished,
且被提醒為了他們好,
and told that for their own good
他們絕對不能再走進去。
they must never go in there again.
有一天,一個男人到鎮上來,
Then one day, a man came to town
帶著從父母的房間裡偷來的
with boxes and boxes of secret documents
裝著秘密檔案的好幾個箱子。
stolen from the parents' rooms.
「看他們一直對你們隱瞞的是什麼」他說。
"Look what they've been hiding from you," he said.
小孩們看了感到很驚奇。
The children looked and were amazed.
這些是他們父母彼此怒罵過程的
There were maps and minutes from meetings
圖像和會議記錄。
where the parents were slagging each other off.
他們的舉止就像小孩。
They behaved just like the children.
而且他們也會犯錯,就像小孩一樣。
And they made mistakes, too, just like the children.
唯一的差異是,他們的錯誤
The only difference was, their mistakes
放在秘密資料庫內。
were in the secret filing cabinets.
鎮上有一個女孩,她不認為
Well, there was a girl in the town, and she didn't think
這些資料應該放在秘密資料庫內,
they should be in the secret filing cabinets,
就算放在那裡,應該要有條法律
or if they were, there ought to be a law
允許小孩們能取得資料。
to allow the children access.
所以她打算要這麼做。
And so she set about to make it so.
我就是故事中的女孩,而我感興趣的秘密文件
Well, I'm the girl in that story, and the secret documents
就位於這座建築物中,
that I was interested in were located in this building,
也就是英國國會大廈,我要取得的資料
the British Parliament, and the data that I wanted
是國會議員的
to get my hands on were the expense receipts
開支收據。
of members of Parliament.
我想這是民主社會中要問的基本問題。(掌聲)
I thought this was a basic question to ask in a democracy. (Applause)
我不是在問核子避難所的密碼,
It wasn't like I was asking for the code to a nuclear bunker,
或者那類的事情,但我出自於尋求資訊的自由
or anything like that, but the amount of resistance I got
而遭遇到的種種阻力
from this Freedom of Information request,
會讓人以為我在問那種機密的問題。
you would have thought I'd asked something like this.
於是我花了大概五年在爭取,
So I fought for about five years doing this,
而這只是我所提的好幾百個請求中的一個。
and it was one of many hundreds of requests that I made,
事實上,我的本意不是要
not -- I didn't -- Hey, look, I didn't set out, honestly,
徹底改革英國國會。
to revolutionize the British Parliament.
那不是我的原本企圖,我只是為我第一本書的研究
That was not my intention. I was just making these requests
提了這些請求。
as part of research for my first book.
但卻演變成冗長,拖延的法律戰,
But it ended up in this very long, protracted legal battle
於是過了五年跟國會抗戰後
and there I was after five years fighting against Parliament
我站在英國最有名望的三位高等法院法官前,
in front of three of Britain's most eminent High Court judges
等待他們裁定國會是否必須釋出這些資料。
waiting for their ruling about whether or not Parliament had to release this data.
我必須誠實以告,當時我沒抱什麼希望。
And I've got to tell you, I wasn't that hopeful,
因為我已經見識過這些機關組織。我心想,
because I'd seen the establishment. I thought,
他們會聯合起來。我沒那麼幸運。
it always sticks together. I am out of luck.
猜猜看?我贏了。萬歲。(掌聲)
Well, guess what? I won. Hooray. (Applause)
但故事不是到此結束,因為問題是
Well, that's not exactly the story, because the problem was
國會一再拖延釋出資料的時間,
that Parliament delayed and delayed releasing that data,
接著他們試著回顧性地改變法律
and then they tried to retrospectively change the law
以致於法律不適用於他們。
so that it would no longer apply to them.
他們較早前通過的透明法適用於其他所有人,
The transparency law they'd passed earlier that applied to everybody else,
但他們試著保存這法律以致於他們能置身事外。
they tried to keep it so it didn't apply to them.
他們沒想到的是數位化,
What they hadn't counted on was digitization,
因為這代表著所有紙張收據
because that meant that all those paper receipts
都經過電子掃描存檔,於是若有人要
had been scanned in electronically, and it was very easy
複製整個資料檔,這是易如反掌的事,
for somebody to just copy that entire database,
插入一個磁碟,資料就流到國會外了,
put it on a disk, and then just saunter outside of Parliament,
有人確實這麼做了,接著他們將磁碟
which they did, and then they shopped that disk
賣給出價最高的競標者,也就是《每日電訊報》,
to the highest bidder, which was the Daily Telegraph,
於是,你也都記得,接下來持續好幾周的披露,
and then, you all remember, there was weeks and weeks
什麼都有,從色情電影
of revelations, everything from porn movies
浴缸塞和新的廚房
and bath plugs and new kitchens
還有從來沒有付清的貸款。
and mortgages that had never been paid off.
結果是六個大臣辭職,
The end result was six ministers resigned,
300年以來,第一個下議院議長被強迫辭職,
the first speaker of the house in 300 years was forced to resign,
根據透明化的指令,一個新政府被推選成立了,
a new government was elected on a mandate of transparency,
120個國會議員在此選舉中下台,
120 MPs stepped down at that election,
截至目前為止,四個國會議員和兩個上議院議員
and so far, four MPs and two lords
因詐欺被而坐牢。
have done jail time for fraud.
謝謝。(掌聲)
So, thank you. (Applause)
我講這個故事是因為這並不只發生在英國。
Well, I tell you that story because it wasn't unique to Britain.
這是文化衝突的例子,
It was an example of a culture clash that's happening
發生在全世界戴假髮和穿襪子的官員身上,
all over the world between bewigged and bestockinged
他們認為他們可以統治我們
officials who think that they can rule over us
而不用受到大眾的窺探,
without very much prying from the public,
接著突然間受到不滿於此種安排的
and then suddenly confronted with a public
社會大眾對質,
who is no longer content with that arrangement,
社會大眾不只是不滿足現狀,更常見地,
and not only not content with it, now, more often,
還有官方資料當靠山。
armed with official data itself.
於是我們進入資訊民主化的時代,
So we are moving to this democratization of information,
而我已經在這領域有一段時間。
and I've been in this field for quite a while.
有點難為情的自白:當我還是個孩子的時候,
Slightly embarrassing admission: Even when I was a kid,
我有小本的間諜筆記本,我所做的是
I used to have these little spy books, and I would, like,
看在我家附近每個人在做什麼,記錄下來。
see what everybody was doing in my neighborhood and log it down.
我想那是我未來選擇
I think that was a pretty good indication
作為一個調查型記者的好指標,
about my future career as an investigative journalist,
而我在這個要取得資訊的領域待了這麼久,所看到的是
and what I've seen from being in this access to information field for so long
過去大家為的是利基利益,
is that it used to be quite a niche interest,
現在這已經成為主流。全世界裡,愈來愈多人
and it's gone mainstream. Everybody, increasingly, around the world,
想要知道有權力的人在做什麼。
wants to know about what people in power are doing.
對於以他們之名和花他們金錢下所做的決定, 他們有權表達意見。
They want a say in decisions that are made in their name
我認為資訊民主化
and with their money. It's this democratization of information
就像是資訊的啟蒙期,
that I think is an information enlightenment,
它跟第一個啟蒙時代有很多相同的原則。
and it has many of the same principles of the first Enlightenment.
都是要尋找真相,
It's about searching for the truth,
不是因為有人說那是真的,「因為我這麼說。」
not because somebody says it's true, "because I say so."
不是的,而是根據你所看到的,
No, it's about trying to find the truth based on
還有可以被驗證的,來試圖找出真相。
what you can see and what can be tested.
在第一個啟蒙時代,這點引發種種問題,
That, in the first Enlightenment, led to questions about
像是國王的權利,國王統治人民的神聖正當性,
the right of kings, the divine right of kings to rule over people,
或者女性應該順從男性,
or that women should be subordinate to men,
或者教會是上帝的官方語言。
or that the Church was the official word of God.
顯然教會不樂見此情形,
Obviously the Church weren't very happy about this,
於是他們試著壓制它,
and they tried to suppress it,
但他們沒想到的是科技,
but what they hadn't counted on was technology,
接著報紙印刷出現了,
and then they had the printing press, which suddenly
突然間這些想法可以很便宜地散播出去,又遠又快,
enabled these ideas to spread cheaply, far and fast,
於是人們會聚集在咖啡店,
and people would come together in coffee houses,
討論這些想法,策畫革命。
discuss the ideas, plot revolution.
在我們的時代,我們有數位化。 刪減了資訊的實體體積,
In our day, we have digitization. That strips all the physical mass out of information,
所以現在複製和分享資訊幾乎是不需要成本的。
so now it's almost zero cost to copy and share information.
我們的報紙印刷是網際網路, 我們的咖啡店是社群網路。
Our printing press is the Internet. Our coffee houses are social networks.
我們進入我所認為的一個完整連接的系統,
We're moving to what I would think of as a fully connected system,
在這個系統內,我們可以作全球的決定,
and we have global decisions to make in this system,
關於氣候、關於財政系統、
decisions about climate, about finance systems,
關於資源等的決定。仔細想想 --
about resources. And think about it --
如果我們要做買房子的重大決定,
if we want to make an important decision about buying a house,
我們不會一次決定。我不清楚你們會怎麼做,
we don't just go off. I mean, I don't know about you,
但在我花了這麼多錢之前,我會去看很多房子。
but I want to see a lot of houses before I put that much money into it.
如果我們想到一個財政系統,
And if we're thinking about a finance system,
我們需要吸收很多的資訊。
we need a lot of information to take in. It's just not possible
一個人不可能吸收這麼大量的資訊,
for one person to take in the amount, the volume
進行分析而下對決定。
of information, and analyze it to make good decisions.
這也是為什麼我們可看到日漸增加的
So that's why we're seeing increasingly this demand
取得資訊的需求。
for access to information.
這也是為什麼我們開始看到愈來愈多的
That's why we're starting to see more disclosure laws
揭露法出現,舉例來說,在環境方面,
come out, so for example, on the environment,
有奧胡斯公約,
there's the Aarhus Convention,
這是一個歐洲的指令,賦予人們強烈的
which is a European directive that gives people
可得知的權力,於是如果你的自來水公司
a very strong right to know, so if your water company
將汙水排放到你的河流裡,
is dumping water into your river, sewage water
你有知道的權力。
into your river, you have a right to know about it.
在金融業裡,你絕對有權力
In the finance industry, you now have more of a right
知道目前發生什麼事,於是我們有
to know about what's going on, so we have
不同的反賄絡法,金錢管制,
different anti-bribery laws, money regulations,
增加的企業揭露,所以現在你可以跨界追蹤資產。
increased corporate disclosure, so you can now track assets across borders.
而且要隱藏資產,避稅,支付不平等工資都日漸困難。
And it's getting harder to hide assets, tax avoidance,
這很棒。我們正開始要在這些系統中
pay inequality. So that's great. We're starting to find out
挖掘愈來愈多的東西。
more and more about these systems.
而且這些都往中央系統移動,
And they're all moving to this central system,
這個完全連接的系統,
this fully connected system,
只缺了一個就完整了。你猜得到是哪一個嗎?
all of them except one. Can you guess which one?
它是所有其它的系統的基礎。
It's the system which underpins all these other systems.
是我們組織且操用權力的根據,
It's the system by which we organize and exercise power,
我指的是政治,因為在政治方面,
and there I'm talking about politics, because in politics,
我們回歸到這個系統,這個綜合的等級制度。
we're back to this system, this top-down hierarchy.
於是需要在此系統中的大量資訊,
And how is it possible that the volume of information
怎麼有可能會被分析呢?
can be processed that needs to in this system?
嗯,答案就是不可能。就是如此。
Well, it just can't. That's it.
我認為這是大量隱藏在我們現有不同政府的
And I think this is largely what's behind the crisis
合法性的危機底下。
of legitimacy in our different governments right now.
我已經跟你們分享一些我做過的事,
So I've told you a bit about what I did
無所不用其極地想把國會帶進
to try and drag Parliament, kicking and screaming,
21世紀,我要再說兩個
into the 21st century, and I'm just going to give you
其他我認識的人正在做的事
a couple of examples of what a few other people I know
的例子。
are doing.
有的名叫 Seb Bacon 的人。他是個電腦程式
So this is a guy called Seb Bacon. He's a computer
設計師,他架了一個叫做 Alaveteli 的網站,
programmer, and he built a site called Alaveteli,
這網站是一個資訊自由的平台。
and what it is, it's a Freedom of Information platform.
它是開放原始碼的,有文件資料,
It's open-source, with documentation, and it allows you
且允許人們提出資訊自由的請求,
to make a Freedom of Information request,
詢問相關大眾一個問題,
to ask your public body a question, so
它把所有的麻煩都刪去,我跟你保證
it takes all the hassle out of it, and I can tell you
提出這些請求就是有很多麻煩,
that there is a lot of hassle making these requests,
它把麻煩省了,而你所做的只是輸入你的問題,
so it takes all of that hassle out, and you just type in your question,
舉例來說,多少警察有犯罪前科?
for example, how many police officers have a criminal record?
網站會將問題轉移到合適的人身上,
It zooms it off to the appropriate person, it tells you
當期限快到的時候,你會被網站告知,網站也會持續
when the time limit is coming to an end, it keeps track of all
追蹤所有的相關通信資訊,將資訊發布在網站上,
the correspondence, it posts it up there,
變成大眾知識的檔案庫。
and it becomes an archive of public knowledge.
因為這網站是開放原始碼的,它可被應用在
So that's open-source and it can be used in any country
任何有資訊自由法的國家。
where there is some kind of Freedom of Information law.
這裡有一張列出擁有資訊自由法的各個不同的國家清單,
So there's a list there of the different countries that have it,
還有幾個國家正要加入。
and then there's a few more coming on board.
如果你們當中有人欣賞這個想法
So if any of you out there like the sound of that
且在你們的國家也有類似的法律,
and have a law like that in your country,
我想 Seb 會很開心你和他聯絡,
I know that Seb would love to hear from you
一起合作將網站推廣到你的國家。
about collaborating and getting that into your country.
這是 Birgitta Jónsdóttir 。她是冰島的國會議員。
This is Birgitta Jónsdóttir. She's an Icelandic MP.
可說是位相當不尋常的國會議員。在冰島,
And quite an unusual MP. In Iceland, she was
當國家的經濟崩裂時,
one of the protesters who was outside of Parliament
她是站在國會外的抗議群眾之一,
when the country's economy collapsed,
接著她被選為改革的代表,
and then she was elected on a reform mandate,
現在她是這個企劃的先鋒部隊。
and she's now spearheading this project.
此企劃就是冰島現代傳媒倡議,
It's the Icelandic Modern Media Initiative,
而且他們剛取得資金可以將它推廣成
and they've just got funding to make it an international
國際的現代傳媒企劃,也就是吸取
modern media project, and this is taking all of the best laws
世界上最好的法律,包括表達的自由,
around the world about freedom of expression,
保護告密者,不受毀謗的防護,
protection of whistleblowers, protection from libel,
來源防護,還有嘗試將冰島變成一個發布消息的避難所。
source protection, and trying to make Iceland a publishing haven.
在那裏你的資訊可以自由,
It's a place where your data can be free, so when we think
當我們愈來愈常想到政府多麼想要取得使用者資訊,
about, increasingly, how governments want to access user data,
在冰島他們正在做的是建造一個可能成真的
what they're trying to do in Iceland is make this safe haven
安全避難所。
where it can happen.
在我所從事的調查型新聞領域,
In my own field of investigative journalism, we're also
我們也必須有全球型思維,於是有個叫作
having to start thinking globally, so this is a site called
調查儀表版的網站。如果你要查詢
Investigative Dashboard. And if you're trying to track
一個獨裁者的資產,舉例來說, Hosni Mubarak ,
a dictator's assets, for example, Hosni Mubarak,
你也知道,當他知道他身陷麻煩,
you know, he's just funneling out cash from his country
他將錢從他的國家流出去,而你要調查時,
when he knows he's in trouble, and what you want to do
你必需竭盡所能地
to investigate that is, you need to have access to
取得全世界的
all of the world's, as many as you can,
公司的房屋註冊資料庫。
companies' house registrations databases.
所以這是個試著凝聚所有資料庫
So this is a website that tries to agglomerate all of those
到一個網站,所以你可以查詢
databases into one place so you can start searching for,
他的親戚,他的朋友,他的國家安全部門的首長。
you know, his relatives, his friends, the head of his security services.
你可以試著找出他如何將資產
You can try and find out how he's moving out assets
移出國內。
from that country.
但當我們講到影響我們最劇烈的決定,
But again, when it comes to the decisions which are
或許最重要的決定是
impacting us the most, perhaps, the most important
有關戰爭等等,
decisions that are being made about war and so forth,
我們不可能只是個提出資訊自由的請求。
again we can't just make a Freedom of Information request.
這是非常困難的。所以我們仍須依靠
It's really difficult. So we're still having to rely on
不合法的手段或洩漏的消息來取來資訊。
illegitimate ways of getting information, through leaks.
於是當英國《衛報》調查
So when the Guardian did this investigation about
阿富汗戰爭時,他們不能走進
the Afghan War, you know, they can't walk into
國防部門要求取得所有的資訊。
the Department of Defense and ask for all the information.
資訊不可能這樣到手。
You know, they're just not going to get it.
所以資訊來自美國軍人寫下的
So this came from leaks of tens of thousands of dispatches
幾萬則有關阿富汗戰爭的快信中,
that were written by American soldiers
而且被洩露,
about the Afghan War, and leaked,
接著他們才能進行調查。
and then they're able to do this investigation.
另外一個相當大規模的調查是全球外交。
Another rather large investigation is around world diplomacy.
再一次地,這也是全部根據洩露的訊息,
Again, this is all based around leaks,
251,000 份美國外交的越洋電報,我也參與
251,000 U.S. diplomatic cables, and I was involved
了這件調查,因為我從一個
in this investigation because I got this leak
很不開心的維基解密人員所洩漏的消息中取得資訊,
through a leak from a disgruntled WikiLeaker
結果我到英國《衛報》工作。
and ended up going to work at the Guardian.
所以我可以跟你說取得此洩密的
So I can tell you firsthand what it was like to have access
第一手感覺。我的意思是,感覺非常的奇妙。
to this leak. It was amazing. I mean, it was amazing.
讓我想起《綠野仙蹤》的場景。
It reminded me of that scene in "The Wizard of Oz."
你知道我的意思嗎?當小狗多多
Do you know the one I mean? Where the little dog Toto
跑到巫師旁,巫師後退,
runs across to where the wizard [is], and he pulls back,
多多折回跑到布簾旁,接著 --
the dog's pulling back the curtain, and --
「不要偷瞄布簾,不要看布簾後面那個人。」
"Don't look behind the screen. Don't look at the man behind the screen."
就像這樣,因為你開始看到的是
It was just like that, because what you started to see
全部這些非常高貴的,浮誇的政治家,
is that all of these grand statesmen, these very pompous
他們就跟我們一樣。
politicians, they were just like us.
他們都互相講彼此的壞話。我指的是這些電報
They all bitched about each other. I mean, quite gossipy,
都滿八卦的。但我想我們應該要抓住
those cables. Okay, but I thought it was a very important
一個重點,這些人是跟我們一樣的人類。
point for all of us to grasp, these are human beings
他們沒有特別的權力。
just like us. They don't have special powers.
他們沒有魔法。他們不是我們的父母。
They're not magic. They are not our parents.
除此之外,我發現最令人著迷的是
Beyond that, what I found most fascinating
我在所有不同國家中看到的
was the level of endemic corruption that I saw
每個地方特有的腐敗程度,
across all different countries, and particularly centered
特別是集中在中心權力附近,盜用公眾財產
around the heart of power, around public officials
來提升個人財富的公務員,
who were embezzling the public's money
因為官方機密,
for their own personal enrichment, and allowed to do that
他們可以下手。
because of official secrecy.
我已經提到維基解密,因為有什麼可以比
So I've mentioned WikiLeaks, because surely what could be
發布這些資訊更公開的事?
more open than publishing all the material?
因為這就是 Julian Assange 所做的事。
Because that is what Julian Assange did.
他不滿足於報紙講求安全和合法的
He wasn't content with the way the newspapers published it
發行方式。他將所有資訊釋出。
to be safe and legal. He threw it all out there.
的確最後在阿富汗 容易受傷害的人們被曝光。
That did end up with vulnerable people in Afghanistan
這也代表白俄羅斯獨裁者
being exposed. It also meant that the Belarussian dictator
有了一份方便的名單,列出所在國家內
was given a handy list of all the pro-democracy campaigners
和美國政府接洽過且支持民主的倡導者。
in that country who had spoken to the U.S. government.
這是很激進的開放性嗎?我覺得不是,因為對我而言,
Is that radical openness? I say it's not, because for me,
這代表的不是放棄權力,
what it means, it doesn't mean abdicating power,
責任,可靠性,這其實是代表著擁有權力的夥伴。
responsibility, accountability, it's actually being a partner
這是關於分享責任,
with power. It's about sharing responsibility,
分享責任。還有,
sharing accountability. Also, the fact that
他威脅要告我因為我有他的洩密的這項事實,
he threatened to sue me because I got a leak of his leaks,
我想也這展現了一種值得注意的前後矛盾的意識,
I thought that showed a remarkable sort of inconsistency
老實說。(笑聲)
in ideology, to be honest, as well. (Laughs)
另一件事是權力有令人不可置信的吸引力,
The other thing is that power is incredibly seductive,
所以我想你一定要有兩種真的特質,
and you must have two real qualities, I think,
當你到桌前,當你操縱權力,
when you come to the table, when you're dealing
談論權力,
with power, talking about power,
因為它的誘惑力。
because of its seductive capacity.
你一定要能懷疑和保持謙卑。
You've got to have skepticism and humility.
懷疑,因為你一定要一直挑戰。
Skepticism, because you must always be challenging.
我要看到你剛剛這麼說的原因。那還不夠好。
I want to see why do you -- you just say so? That's not good enough.
我要看到為什麼那是這樣的證據。
I want to see the evidence behind why that's so.
而要謙虛是因為我們都是人類,我們都會犯錯。
And humility because we are all human. We all make mistakes.
如果你不懂得懷疑和謙虛,
And if you don't have skepticism and humility,
改革者和獨裁者之間只有一線之隔,
then it's a really short journey to go from reformer
我想你只要讀過《動物農莊》
to autocrat, and I think you only have to read "Animal Farm"
就能明白權力如何腐蝕人心。
to get that message about how power corrupts people.
那麼解決方案是什麼呢? 我相信是要在法律規定下,
So what is the solution? It is, I believe, to embody
將取得資訊的權力具體化。
within the rule of law rights to information.
當下我們的權力真是令人不可置信地渺小。
At the moment our rights are incredibly weak.
在很多國家,有實行官方機密法,
In a lot of countries, we have Official Secrets Acts,
包括在英國。我們有不為大眾利益著想的
including in Britain here. We have an Official Secrets Act
官方機密法。這代表著發布或者洩漏官方消息
with no public interest test. So that means it's a crime,
是犯罪行為,在很多案例裡,
people are punished, quite severely in a lot of cases,
人們被嚴重地處罰。
for publishing or giving away official information.
試想這樣不是很好嗎?
Now wouldn't it be amazing, and really, this is what I want
我要你們思考的是 如果我們有個官方的揭露法
all of you to think about, if we had an Official Disclosure Act
當官員被發現封鎖或者隱藏了
where officials were punished if they were found
有關大眾利益的消息,
to have suppressed or hidden information
他們會被處罰。
that was in the public interest?
對!這就是我的權力姿勢。(掌聲)(笑聲)
So that -- yes. Yes! My power pose. (Applause) (Laughs)
我希望我們能朝這個方向努力。
I would like us to work towards that.
所以並非全部都是壞消息。我的意思是,
So it's not all bad news. I mean, there definitely is
當然有在進步,但我想我們發現了
progress on the line, but I think what we find is that
當我們愈接近權力中心時,
the closer that we get right into the heart of power,
它變得更模糊和封閉。
the more opaque, closed it becomes.
某一週我聽到
So it was only just the other week that I heard London's
倫敦警察局局長講到
Metropolitan Police Commissioner talking about why
為什麼警察需要取得我們所有的通聯記錄,
the police need access to all of our communications,
不在司法監督下可監視我們,
spying on us without any judicial oversight,
他說這是攸關生死的事情。
and he said it was a matter of life and death.
他真的這麼說,攸關生死的事。
He actually said that, it was a matter of life and death.
沒有證據。他沒有提出任何證據。
There was no evidence. He presented no evidence of that.
就像這樣,「因為我這麼說。
It was just, "Because I say so.
你必須相信我。有信心。」
You have to trust me. Take it on faith."
嗯,我很抱歉,大家,但我們退化到
Well, I'm sorry, people, but we are back
啟蒙時代前的教會中,
to the pre-Enlightenment Church,
所以我們必需抵抗。
and we need to fight against that.
他所提到的英國法律是
So he was talking about the law in Britain which is
通訊資料法,一則相當可恥的立法。
the Communications Data Bill, an absolutely outrageous piece of legislation.
在美國有網路情報分享及保護法。
In America, you have the Cyber Intelligence Sharing and Protection Act.
無人飛機被使來作國土監控。
You've got drones now being considered for domestic surveillance.
有一棟世界最大的監視中心
You have the National Security Agency building
也就是國家安全局。非常龐大 --
the world's giantest spy center. It's just this colossal --
是美國國會大廈的五倍大,
it's five times bigger than the U.S. Capitol,
他們在裡面攔截和分析
in which they're going to intercept and analyze
通聯紀錄、交通和個人資料,
communications, traffic and personal data
試著找出誰是社會中製造麻煩的人。
to try and figure out who's the troublemaker in society.
回到我們原本的故事,
Well, to go back to our original story, the parents
父母受了驚嚇。他們把全部的門都鎖起來。
have panicked. They've locked all the doors.
他們在屋外都裝了 CCTV 監視攝影機。
They've kidded out the house with CCTV cameras.
他們在監控我們。他們挖了一個地下室,
They're watching all of us. They've dug a basement,
而且建造一個監視中心,執行規則系統,
and they've built a spy center to try and run algorithms
找出我們當中誰會找麻煩,
and figure out which ones of us are troublesome,
如果任何人抱怨,我們會因恐怖主義被逮捕。
and if any of us complain about that, we're arrested for terrorism.
這到底是童話故事還是活生生的夢靨呢?
Well, is that a fairy tale or a living nightmare?
有些童話故事有美好結局。有些沒有。
Some fairy tales have happy endings. Some don't.
我想我們都讀過格林童話,
I think we've all read the Grimms' fairy tales, which are,
事實上是非常殘忍的。
indeed, very grim.
但這個世界不是個童話故事,甚至有可能
But the world isn't a fairy tale, and it could be more brutal
比我們願意承認得來的更加殘酷。
than we want to acknowledge.
相同地,世界可以比我們過去被引導而相信得還要好,
Equally, it could be better than we've been led to believe,
但不管是哪個方式,我們必須開始看清事情真相,
but either way, we have to start seeing it exactly as it is,
和所有的問題,因為只有藉著
with all of its problems, because it's only by seeing it
看清所有的問題,我們才能解決它們,
with all of its problems that we'll be able to fix them
且活在一個我們全部都可以過得
and live in a world in which we can all be
更快樂的世界。(笑聲) 謝謝大家。
happily ever after. (Laughs) Thank you very much.
(掌聲)
(Applause)
謝謝。(掌聲)
Thank you. (Applause)