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  • Johnathan, in the wake of the Panama Papers, we've had a lot of revelations about

    Johnathan, 再發生巴拿馬文件洩漏之後,我們得知

  • well to do people sending their money off to faraway places in order to avoid tax liabilities.

    很多豐衣足食的富人將他們的財產移轉至外地來規避稅額。

  • Is this kind of behavior ever acceptable?

    這種行為是可以被世人所接受的嗎?

  • Well, I think we should start by making a distinction between various different sorts of activity.

    嗯,我想我們應該先劃分清楚不同行為之間的區別。

  • Clearly, running off with assets from a country, looting it as a political leader and salting them away in some foreign place.

    很明顯的,於一個國家帶走資產,以政治領袖的身分掠奪錢財並捲款逃出國。

  • It's straightforwardly illegal as it is.

    很顯然是非法的。

  • It is totally indefensible, and I would put into the same category.

    這項行為完全不能辯解,而另一項我會與之歸為同類的非法行為

  • Tax evasion, where you take your money, put it into a foreign place and hope that the tax man never finds out what you've done in your country of origin.

    則是逃稅,把錢存在國外並祈禱國稅局永遠不會循法律途徑找到它。

  • But I think that there is a third sort of activity which involves rooting finance through jurisdictions.

    但我想還有第三種類似行為: 合法的移轉財富。

  • Such as the Virgin Islands or Panama, which is not necessarily in anyway illegitimate.

    像是維京群島或是巴拿馬,並非不合法。

  • So, give me an example.

    給我一個例子。

  • Ok. A classic example would be an investment fund.

    好,典型的例子就像是投資基金。

  • An investment fund containing investors from various different countries,

    投資基金由不同國家的投資者共同投資,

  • which who gather together to put their money into a third country.

    負責統整這筆基金的人將他們的錢財存放於第三國。

  • Let's say it's an emerging market with a somewhat shaky legal system.

    比如說一個法律系統尚未穩健之新興國家的市場。

  • So therefore, they want to find a place where they can gather together with their cash

    所以,他們想要找一個他們可以存放財產的地方,

  • where they enjoy certain protections between each other and with the end-investor or the investee.

    一個他們可以享有某種保護,彼此,投資者以及被投資者都無法任意侵害對方權益。

  • Right.

    對。

  • So, at the same time, the profits that come back are not then taxed heavily in the point at which they've gathered,

    同時,回收利潤的課稅就沒有如當初投資時那般重,

  • but are likely taxed and then the profits from that return to those investors in their countries of origin.

    但是還是會多少被課一點稅,當利入回到投資者所屬國家時,

  • And then, they declare their tax to their own local authorities.

    他們就會向當地政府表示這筆錢已經被課過稅了。

  • I see no particular issue with that.

    我看不出這有甚麼問題。

  • Let's say I've made my money in London or in Birmingham or in Edinburgh, and I wanna leave it to my children.

    假如我在倫敦或是伯明罕或是愛丁堡賺了一筆錢,我想要留給我的後代。

  • Say or and I develop a trust.

    假設我有個信託。

  • If I am putting that trust abroad, let's say, it seems like I'm making an effort to do a kind of arbitrage.

    如果我把它放在海外,這看起來好像我在努力從中套利。

  • I like living here, I like the tax system over there even if I don't want to live there, and I'm trying to have both.

    我住在這裡,我喜歡那裏的稅制但是我不想住在那哩,然而我試著兩邊的益處都要拿到。

  • Look, trusts have very clear rules. Each jurisdiction, Britain, America, draw very tight rules about how trusts can be set up.

    聽著,信託有非常明確的規則。所有的司法權,英國,美國,都非常嚴密的規定信託成立要素。

  • On the question of where the money is located and the use of foreign jurisdictions like the Virgin Islands.

    他們會規定錢財的所在位置,海外司法權的利用,比如維京群島。

  • The point I would make is this, which is we do live in a world where essentially citizens are free to move their capital around the place.

    我要表達的重點是,我們確實居住在一個所有公民可以自由移動資本的世界。

  • I can invest in China if I choose, I think.

    我如果想要的話我可以在中國投資,應該吧。

  • Where I can get it passed the Central Bank or I can invest in America.

    我可以通過中央銀行的審核,或者我也可以在美國投資。

  • It seems to be rather odd to draw a distinction than to say that the British Virgin Islands is somehow off limits.

    要說英屬維京群島禁止投資好像有點奇怪。

  • Then we put this question to you. Are people and companies different in this respect?

    那讓我們問你這個問題: 就這方面來說個人跟公司有甚麼不一樣嗎?

  • Are the responsibilities of the two different?

    兩者的責任有甚麼不同嗎?

  • I personally am very sympathetic to the idea that companies should be obliged to be very open about what they do.

    我個人對於公司行號有義務做到公開透明的這個想法覺得十分同情。

  • Anything which enjoys limited liability should do so in plain sight in my view.

    任何享受有限制的責任的事情都該於眾目睽睽之下透明公開。

  • And I think shell companies should not be allowed to exist in offshore jurisdictions in the way they do.

    而我覺得空殼公司(在交易所中成為兼并對象的控股公司)不該在海外政權之地區存在。

  • If somebody is doing a legitimate business, a company is making a legitimate investment through the British Virgin Islands,

    如果在英屬維京群島有人在做正當生意,一個公司在做正當投資,

  • it should do so publicly.

    他們應該公開進行。

  • And it should be possible for you and me to see what's going on.

    而你我都應該能夠得知其現況。

  • But peopleyou think should get a bit more privacy?

    但你覺得人們應該有多一點隱私?

  • I think individuals, well, I actually think this more broadly. I think it should be the case onshore as well as offshore.

    我覺得個人,嗯,我其實覺得更概括的,海內海外都該如此。

  • I think we should be, I think a company's tax affairs should be much more public than they are in the UK.

    我覺得我們應該,我覺得一間企業的納稅情況應該比他們在英國的現況更公開。

  • But I think in the case of individuals, I think it is reasonable with natural persons to allow them a degree of confidentiality in their tax affairs.

    但是就個人來說,我覺得賦予自然人一定程度的隱私是合理的。

  • So, if you and I are put in charge of the UK or indeed the world's tax regime, where do the reforms need to happen?

    所以,如果我們兩個被突然掌管了英國或是全球的稅制,我們應該如何革新?

  • Very simple, lift secrecy on corporate transactions, shell companies,

    很簡單,提高公司交易,空殼公司的機密程度,

  • undisclosed shell companies should be a thing of the past.

    空殼公司不透明化已經過時了。

  • Thanks, Johnathan.

    謝謝你 Johnathan。

Johnathan, in the wake of the Panama Papers, we've had a lot of revelations about

Johnathan, 再發生巴拿馬文件洩漏之後,我們得知

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避稅天堂:支持與反對|FT評論 (Tax havens: for and against | FT Comment)

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    Kristi Yang 發佈於 2021 年 01 月 14 日
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