well to do people sending their money off to faraway places in order to avoid tax liabilities.

很多豐衣足食的富人將他們的財產移轉至外地來規避稅額。

Is this kind of behavior ever acceptable?

這種行為是可以被世人所接受的嗎?

Well, I think we should start by making a distinction between various different sorts of activity.

嗯，我想我們應該先劃分清楚不同行為之間的區別。

Clearly, running off with assets from a country, looting it as a political leader and salting them away in some foreign place.

很明顯的，於一個國家帶走資產，以政治領袖的身分掠奪錢財並捲款逃出國。

It's straightforwardly illegal as it is.

很顯然是非法的。

It is totally indefensible, and I would put into the same category.

這項行為完全不能辯解，而另一項我會與之歸為同類的非法行為

Tax evasion, where you take your money, put it into a foreign place and hope that the tax man never finds out what you've done in your country of origin.

則是逃稅，把錢存在國外並祈禱國稅局永遠不會循法律途徑找到它。

But I think that there is a third sort of activity which involves rooting finance through jurisdictions.

但我想還有第三種類似行為: 合法的移轉財富。

Such as the Virgin Islands or Panama, which is not necessarily in anyway illegitimate.

像是維京群島或是巴拿馬，並非不合法。

So, give me an example.

給我一個例子。

Ok. A classic example would be an investment fund.

好，典型的例子就像是投資基金。

An investment fund containing investors from various different countries,

投資基金由不同國家的投資者共同投資，

which who gather together to put their money into a third country.

負責統整這筆基金的人將他們的錢財存放於第三國。

Let's say it's an emerging market with a somewhat shaky legal system.

比如說一個法律系統尚未穩健之新興國家的市場。

So therefore, they want to find a place where they can gather together with their cash

所以，他們想要找一個他們可以存放財產的地方，

where they enjoy certain protections between each other and with the end-investor or the investee.

一個他們可以享有某種保護，彼此，投資者以及被投資者都無法任意侵害對方權益。

Right.

對。

So, at the same time, the profits that come back are not then taxed heavily in the point at which they've gathered,

同時，回收利潤的課稅就沒有如當初投資時那般重，

but are likely taxed and then the profits from that return to those investors in their countries of origin.

但是還是會多少被課一點稅，當利入回到投資者所屬國家時，

And then, they declare their tax to their own local authorities.

他們就會向當地政府表示這筆錢已經被課過稅了。

I see no particular issue with that.

我看不出這有甚麼問題。

Let's say I've made my money in London or in Birmingham or in Edinburgh, and I wanna leave it to my children.

假如我在倫敦或是伯明罕或是愛丁堡賺了一筆錢，我想要留給我的後代。

Say or and I develop a trust.

假設我有個信託。

If I am putting that trust abroad, let's say, it seems like I'm making an effort to do a kind of arbitrage.

如果我把它放在海外，這看起來好像我在努力從中套利。

I like living here, I like the tax system over there even if I don't want to live there, and I'm trying to have both.

我住在這裡，我喜歡那裏的稅制但是我不想住在那哩，然而我試著兩邊的益處都要拿到。

Look, trusts have very clear rules. Each jurisdiction, Britain, America, draw very tight rules about how trusts can be set up.

聽著，信託有非常明確的規則。所有的司法權，英國，美國，都非常嚴密的規定信託成立要素。

On the question of where the money is located and the use of foreign jurisdictions like the Virgin Islands.

他們會規定錢財的所在位置，海外司法權的利用，比如維京群島。

The point I would make is this, which is we do live in a world where essentially citizens are free to move their capital around the place.

我要表達的重點是，我們確實居住在一個所有公民可以自由移動資本的世界。

I can invest in China if I choose, I think.

我如果想要的話我可以在中國投資，應該吧。

Where I can get it passed the Central Bank or I can invest in America.

我可以通過中央銀行的審核，或者我也可以在美國投資。

It seems to be rather odd to draw a distinction than to say that the British Virgin Islands is somehow off limits.

要說英屬維京群島禁止投資好像有點奇怪。

Then we put this question to you. Are people and companies different in this respect?

那讓我們問你這個問題: 就這方面來說個人跟公司有甚麼不一樣嗎?

Are the responsibilities of the two different?

兩者的責任有甚麼不同嗎?

I personally am very sympathetic to the idea that companies should be obliged to be very open about what they do.

我個人對於公司行號有義務做到公開透明的這個想法覺得十分同情。

Anything which enjoys limited liability should do so in plain sight in my view.

任何享受有限制的責任的事情都該於眾目睽睽之下透明公開。

And I think shell companies should not be allowed to exist in offshore jurisdictions in the way they do.

而我覺得空殼公司(在交易所中成為兼并對象的控股公司)不該在海外政權之地區存在。

If somebody is doing a legitimate business, a company is making a legitimate investment through the British Virgin Islands,

如果在英屬維京群島有人在做正當生意，一個公司在做正當投資，

it should do so publicly.

他們應該公開進行。

And it should be possible for you and me to see what's going on.

而你我都應該能夠得知其現況。

But people，you think should get a bit more privacy?

但你覺得人們應該有多一點隱私?

I think individuals, well, I actually think this more broadly. I think it should be the case onshore as well as offshore.

我覺得個人，嗯，我其實覺得更概括的，海內海外都該如此。

I think we should be, I think a company's tax affairs should be much more public than they are in the UK.

我覺得我們應該，我覺得一間企業的納稅情況應該比他們在英國的現況更公開。

But I think in the case of individuals, I think it is reasonable with natural persons to allow them a degree of confidentiality in their tax affairs.

但是就個人來說，我覺得賦予自然人一定程度的隱私是合理的。

So, if you and I are put in charge of the UK or indeed the world's tax regime, where do the reforms need to happen?

所以，如果我們兩個被突然掌管了英國或是全球的稅制，我們應該如何革新?

Very simple, lift secrecy on corporate transactions, shell companies,

很簡單，提高公司交易，空殼公司的機密程度，

undisclosed shell companies should be a thing of the past.

空殼公司不透明化已經過時了。

Thanks, Johnathan.

謝謝你 Johnathan。