the place to be to create a business and life you love.

這裡為你打造你喜愛的事物和熱愛的生活。

And today whether you are a parent, you hope to be a parent, or even you have parents,

今天，無論你是當人爸媽、想當爸媽，還是爸媽的小孩，

I think each of us wants a more loving and connected relationship

我想大家都想要家庭關係，變得更有愛、

to our families and my guest today is gonna show us how.

更緊密，今天的來賓就會教大家怎麼做。

Dr. Shefali Tsabary is a clinical psychologist and author of the award-winning book The Conscious Parent.

Shefali Tsabary 醫生是臨床心理學家，也是曾獲獎《The Conscious Parent》的作者，

Oprah Winfrey has hailed it as one of the most profound books in parenting she's ever read.

主持人歐普拉曾稱讚，說這是她看過最有深度的親子書。

Her latest book, Out of Control: Why disciplining your child doesn't work…and what will,

她最新的書《Out of Control: Why disciplining your child doesn't work…and what will》

is breaking ground with its revolutionary perspective on how to create positive change in families.

也對於改善家庭關係提出了全新的觀點，

She blends mindfulness with western psychology, integrating wisdom from both traditions.

她結合東方佛教中的「正念」和西方心理學，融和兩方的智慧。

Dr. Shefali has a private practice in New York City.

Shefali 醫生在紐約也有開設自己的診療室。

Dr. Shefali, thank you for being here.

Shefali 醫生你好，謝謝你來上這個節目。

Of course, I'm so excited.

哪裡，我今天非常興奮。

So as we were talking before the episode I was sharing how we have so many parents in our audience,

在節目前我有跟你聊過，說我們節目的觀眾有很多都是爸爸媽媽，

but then we have this unexpected amazing audience of people like age 9 or 10 and up.

但想不到的是，也有 9 歲或 10 幾歲的小觀眾。

So I'm so excited to have you here today so we can talk not only about conscious parenting,

所以我很興奮今天你能來，因為我們可以不只談如何當個覺醒的父母，

but also really the underpinning spiritual principles that can help all of us

也可以聊一些強化心靈的原則來幫助大家，

relate better to ourselves and our teams and our parents and our kids and just have

更了解無論是自己、身邊的群體、我們的父母、或我們的孩子，

better relationships across the board.

也能全面改善我們的人際關係。

Absolutely.

當然沒問題。

So let's start off. What are some of the basic ideas around your concept of conscious parenting?

那我們就開始吧。你說過「有意識地當父母」，那基本的理念有哪些？

So like you said, even though I talk and write about conscious parenting, it's really about all relationships,

就像你說的，雖然我談的、我寫的都是有關如何有意識地當父母，但內容其實跟所有的人際關係都有關，

but particularly the parent-child dynamic because that is just such a personal relationship.

會特別談親子關係，因為這是一個非常特別的人際關係，

I mean, I don't think anyone gets more defensive about their issues than a parent

我的意思是，沒有任何人可以比父母更呵護他們的孩子了。

because the child is yours, you know, it's the one person you believe, narcissistically disillusioned,

因為孩子是你的，是你最信任的人，就算這種自戀產生的幻覺消失，

to believe that it's yours. It's a delusion, but you believe it's yours. Right?

你還是相信孩子是你的。這其實是幻覺，但你還是相信孩子是「你的」，對吧？

So the ego comes roaring in such ferocity, in such velocity and you believe

所以你的「自我」就迅速地、兇猛地在內心咆哮，讓你以為

you can, you know, possess and control and contour this person into the ideal image of yourself.

你擁有這個人，你可以掌控且改變他，直到他成為你心中理想的模樣，

We're doing this in all relationships but we do it full force in the parent-child relationship,

在每個人際關係中，我們多少都會這樣做，但在親子關係中是最嚴重的。

and my approach speaks to this in position of the parental ego on the child.

我以父母想掌控孩子的「自我」為角度來談這件事。

And asks parents and takes them to task on it. Challenges them to become aware that there

我請一些父母來，然後在這件事情上責備他們。責備他們是要讓他們意識到，

is this thing called the unconscious that we put on our children and impose on them

我們對孩子施加壓力，都是潛意識驅使所做出來的行為，

burdens from our emotional past that are not really theirs to hold, to bear, to contain, to heal.

那些全來自於我們過去的情緒，不應該由孩子來承擔、吸收，

This kind of internal fixing needs to be done by ourselves.

這種內在的改變需要靠我們自己才能完成。

But we're unconscious of this, so onto our children comes

因為潛意識作祟，所以我們把以前身上所背的

all our past baggage and all our desires, all our, you know, wishes for our own ideal self to

包袱、渴望和夢想，全部丟到孩子身上，為的是讓孩子，

be manifested that we couldn't but we make our children do it.

幫我們實現那個我們沒能成為、理想的自己。

So in this process of imposing the ego on the child, the child loses its authentic self. Right? And has to forsake

因此，我們的「自我」掌控孩子的過程中，這孩子就失去了他原本真正的「自我」，

its authentic self, give it up for its parent. And the child loves its parent

他必須捨棄他的「自我」，為了父母拋棄它。因為這孩子愛他的父母，

and doesn't even know that this is happening, so will just give it up. And in that process

所以不知道這一切正在發生，就拋棄了自我。在這個過程中，

year after year after year the child becomes increasingly more disconnected from their authentic voice

年復一年，年復一年，這孩子逐漸聽不見他內心真正的聲音，

and then you have an adult who's lost, directionless, purposeless, not knowing how to access that inner voice.

長大後就變得不知所措、沒有方向和目標，不知道如何傾聽內心真正的聲音。

And that's what we see in teenagers, we see that in adults,

我們可以在很多青少年、成人身上看到這樣的情形，

and that process starts in the parent-child dynamic.

這一切都源自親子關係。

This is so fascinating because everything that you're suggesting and all of your work,

這真得很有趣，因為你提出的論點、你從事的工作，

I think, is so revolutionary, so beautiful, but brings us back to our own wisdom

都是前所未有、很棒的，也喚起我們內心深處的智慧，

both as a parent, which I'm a step-parent, I don't have a biological child, but also

提醒了我，我是一位母親，雖然是繼母，因為孩子並非我親生，但我同時

as an individual. You know, listening to our own inner guide. And I think something that

也是獨立個體，像你說的，傾聽我們內心的聲音。而你說的情況，

you said that I see so much throughout my work and I've tried to keep a balance of

我工作以來看過很多，我也一直在拿捏一個平衡點，就是

in my professional life is even though I may have suggestions, is guiding people back to

即使我給別人建議，也是指引他們回到內心，傾聽他們自己真正的聲音，

their own inner voice and their own inner wisdom because they know better than I do.

喚起他們深層的智慧，因為他們一定比我更懂他們自己，

I can give little guideposts or suggestions, but they're usually sparks.

我會給他們一些指引或建議，但我都點到為止。

But that's because you've learned to so honor that inner voice in you

因為你知道尊重自己內心的聲音很重要，

that you don't wanna mess it in anyone else.

所以你就不會想要擾亂別人內心的聲音。

Yes.

對。

Because you realize how sacred that is, what a valuable, inestimable gift that is. Right?

因為你知道這聲音非常神聖、是珍貴無價的，對吧？

So you're not giving that up. So therefore you hold it sacred in the others you meet.

所以你不會拋棄它。因此，你也會把別人內心的聲音視為非常神聖的。

But imagine being raised having that inner voice being trampled. Right?

但你試想，如果你在成長過程中，內心的聲音一直被忽視呢？

That inner voice being disconnected from within,

那聲音在你心裡離你越來越遠，

so then you don't even know that you need to be honoring this voice. So when your child comes

你就不會尊重它了。所以當你有了孩子，

you're thinking, "Ok, I'll just do what my parents did

你就會想「爸媽都這樣待我，那我也這樣去待我的孩子，

and just slap on my huge ego onto them, "and thus goes on the process of generational

然後用我的『自我』掌控他們」，繼續這種把創傷、痛苦

trauma, generational pain. It just keeps going on and on.

一代傳一代的過程。不斷地循環這樣的過程。

Yeah. You're giving me so much respect for my mom right now. I just saw her in Vegas not too long ago and

你這樣講，我現在更尊敬我媽了，我前陣子剛去維加斯見她，

since I was a very little girl she would tell me that I have this small voice inside

從我還是小女孩的時候，她就告訴我，我內心有這樣小小的聲音存在，

and she's like, "What do you think? How does it feel?" And

她也會說像是，「你覺得呢？感覺起來怎樣？」

I love hearing this because it really is, we all have this beautiful gift that guides us to

我很喜歡她這樣問我，因為真的就是你說的，我們心中都有這樣美好的聲音，幫助我們

decision making, relationships, how to be a great person. And I love this approach

做決定、與人相處，也幫助我們成為更好的人，我很喜歡你的方法，

because you're giving parents such freedom and so much more soulful connection

因為你給予父母足夠的自由，也連繫了父母和他們最愛的寶貝，

with the little beings they created and they love more than anything.

彼此之間的情感。

Yeah. It's the biggest gift to give parents, it is ultimately freeing, but parents get

這的確給了父母最大的幫助，沒有任何束縛，但他們會

threatened by this approach because it's all about them. It's about them doing the inner work.

被這方法嚇到，因為主要是他們，是他們要做內在的改變，

They can't be misguided into believing, seduced into believing, that there's

不要讓他們搞錯，誤以為

some therapist that's gonna come and fix their child or fix them.

是治療師要來治療他們或是他們的孩子。

They're gonna have to do the inner work.

他們一定要做內在的改變，

But the minute they are on this journey they become liberated

一旦他們做了改變，他們的心靈就自由了，

because they can trust that inner guide, they can re-access their own, you know, purpose for living

因為他們相信自己內心的指引，他們就可以重新審視他們生活的目標，

and reorient themselves to their inner compass. Right? What greater liberation?

讓生活跟著內心的指南針走，回歸正軌。多麼自由！

They don't have to read another parenting book, they can… right? It all starts from within.

他們不需要再看任何的親子教育書，是吧？一切都要從「心」開始，

So that's the core principle and authenticity then becomes the core principle of the family life.

這就是核心原則，真實地做自己就是家庭生活的核心原則，

Authenticity, worth, self orientation, inner introspection, inner reflection.

真誠的內心、自我的價值、自我導向、和自我反省、省思都是很重要的，

So these become the pillars of raising a child, not success, not grades, not beauty, not wealth.

這些才是支撐孩子長大的，不是成功、分數、美貌或財富，

It's all the inner dimension.

一切都是跟心理層面有關的。

Which leads me to something that we talked about on the phone and I thought it was excellent.

這讓我想到，我們之前在電話裡聊到，一件我覺得很棒的事情，

Let's say our child or ourselves, we're struggling with something as common as overeating.

就拿我們自己或我們的孩子來說，常見的問題就是暴飲暴食，

You know, and so many times we wanna go right to perhaps the action. Ok, well, we need to

我們最直接的解決辦法，往往就是改變我們的外在行為。就像，我們需要

adjust the diet or start looking at how much food. And perhaps that's a component

調整飲食或是拿捏食物的分量。也許這是一項原因，

but you said, "No, no, no, no, no, there's something much deeper that we need to look at."

但你說「不不不不不，我們需要注意的是更深層、內在層面的東西。」

Well, so this approach really stays true to the premise that it's all happening on an internal level.

這個方法也符合這個前提，就是一切問題都來自內在心理，

So all external behaviors are a mirror of the internal landscape.

藉由外在行為反映出來。

And so it is with the people we encounter. So first, you know, you orient yourself constantly

我們遇到的每個人也都是如此。所以首先要做的，就是「不斷地調適自己」，

that if another person is being mean to you or said that you're ugly or you're fat

假如任何人對你不好，或是說你長得很醜、很胖、

or you're lazy, it's coming from their pain. So this is the first thing you teach your children,

或很懶，都是因為他們內心的痛苦，讓他們這樣做的。第一件你要教你孩子的事情，

that everyone has this looming, dark unconscious and when that unconscious is triggered,

就是每個人都有隱藏的、暗黑的潛意識，當潛意識被激發，

pain comes out. And pain often looks hurtful and looks mean and looks cruel.

人的痛苦就會湧現。痛苦往往是很傷人、很殘酷的。

And then the second thing to orient children and parents to is that when our sense of worth

第二件父母或孩子要調適的事情就是，當我們的價值觀

is based on how one feels and how connected one is to one's voice, then we are free

建立在我們的感受，和我們與內心的連結上時，我們就不會

from the external tentacles of, you know, either the looks or the grades or the achievement.

被外界的干擾所牽絆，無論是長相、分數、還是成就，

So the orientation to this inner work liberates you from being controlled by the other

內在的調適讓你不會受到其他人控制，

and liberates you from being controlled by what society puts on you in terms of

也可以讓你擺脫社會給你的束縛，不讓社會

how we should be on the outside.

決定你的樣子。

Yeah, because who knows. Who makes up these rules of what's perfect, what's successful?

是，因為沒有人曉得，是誰立下這些規定，定義什麼是完美、什麼是成功。

Right.

沒錯。

We were talking about this on a recent episode that we just shot just about success, you know,

我們最近錄完一集，就是在聊這個，聊成功的定義是什麼，

society can't even define it clearly. It's like something that we really need to take back for ourselves

就連社會也無法給出一個明確的答案。我們真正要做的是找回「自己」，

and really look at, you know, orientating it around

像你說的調適自己，認真地審視

what's happening on the inside.

內心真正想要的是什麼。

But we have to be mavericks in this. We have to be kind of rebellious and go against the tide

但我們勢必會變得特立獨行、有點反抗，與主流背道而馳，

because especially for parents, I mean, the pressure we have. You know, if you enroll

因為尤其是父母，因為我們的壓力更大，像是，你的孩子

your child for ballet at 5 you're already 2 years behind the curve. You know? You're already falling behind.

5 歲才上芭蕾舞蹈班，已經落後別人 2 年了。你已經落後了。

The race to nowhere is treacherous, it's uphill, and it's constant.

這種無止盡的賽跑很可怕，非常辛苦，而且沒有結束的一天。

But everyone's on it so you feel kind of like you're not doing something right,

當大家都還在跑道上，你就會覺得，不一起跑就像做錯事一樣，

you're not being a good parent by not, you know, entering that herd.

不合群讓你覺得你是很糟糕的父母。

Yes.

對。

So what a maverick parent you have to be but, let me tell you, when I tell parents that

所以你得變成特立獨行的父母，不過我跟你說，每當我跟父母說

they have the freedom to become maverick parents they're so, you know, enlivened by that.

他們可以特立獨行的時候，他們就變得很有趣。

They're just waiting for permission. You know, can I not go crazy if my kid doesn't

他們變成只聽我的指示行事。像是，「如果我的孩子沒有上長春藤的學校，

go to an Ivy League school? Can I allow my kid to just be? You know, this doing, this

我是不是不能發火？」「我可以讓我的孩子做這個那個嗎？」

fixing from the outside. So like you were saying, if a kid overeats or if a person overeats,

這些都只是改變外在行為，像你剛剛說的，如果一個人或一個小孩暴飲暴食，

the behavior is always speaking to the inner feeling, the inner landscape. So always taking

這樣的外在行為往往在透露他內心的感受，反映內在的樣子，

the external to the internal.

所以凡事都要由表及裡。

Yes. One of the questions that we got, and we get thousands of questions from our viewers,

是。我們收到的其中一則提問，我們都會收到上千則來自觀眾的提問，

and there was one that really broke my heart and then when I knew you and I would be talking today

其中一則提問我看完心都碎了，然後我知道你要來上節目，

I said, "You know what? Dr. Shefali, this is one that I really wanna hear her perspective on."

我就說「你猜是誰？是 Shefali 醫生，我真的很想聽聽看他的意見如何。」

So I sent it to you earlier and I'm just gonna read a little bit to orient everyone

所以我事先把問題寄給你了，接下來我會唸提問的一小段，

for this question from Alisha who is struggling with perfectionism, which is not only something

讓大家稍微了解一下，來自 Alisha 的提問，她對自己的完美主義感到很困擾，這種困擾並非

that a teen struggles with but, of course, many people and a lot of women.

只有青少年會有，很多女性、很多人都有。

So she's a very high achiever, she's the president of the future business leaders of America,

她非常出色，她擔任過美國未來商業大會競賽的主席、

she's the vice president of the national junior high society, assistant editor of the yearbook,

國中學生會副會長、學生會刊編輯助理，

she's maintained a 4.0 GPA for the past 5 years,

她過去 5 年的學業成績維持在 4.0 GPA，

and she has high school level classes even though she's in middle school. Check this out.

國中時就已經在修高中的課程了，來看她的提問，

"I have a boyfriend I love, my family that I love, and for some reason whenever I mess up,

「雖然我有我愛的男友、家人，但不知道為什麼，最近

which seems to be a lot lately, I find myself wishing to start over.

我只要把事情搞砸了，我就會很想要一切重頭來過，

Start a new week, a new month so I can just try to make it perfect again.

再給我一個禮拜、一個月，這樣我就可以把事情做得更完美，

I can't tell you how many weeks I've beaten myself up

我已經不知道自責多少個禮拜了，

for not making it a 'perfect week' where I follow my schedule each day.

因為就算我照著我的計畫走，事情還是不夠完美，

No one around me is extremely hard on myself, in fact, most of the people

我身邊的人都沒有非常苛求我，其實，我身邊

I surround myself with are very forgiving of any mistakes I make.

大部分的人就算看到我犯錯，還是非常包容我，

So why can't I stop obsessing over starting anew and making things perfect?"

那為什麼我還是會不停地想重新來過，把事情做得更完美呢？」

-What do you say to Alisha? -She's insightful.

-你會給 Alisha 什麼建議？ -她心思很細膩。

She's insightful, she's courageous. At least she knows the traps she's falling under.

她心思很細膩、也很勇敢，至少她知道自己正陷在什麼困境當中，

And she's not unlike millions of us who have put this mantle of perfection.

而且她不像我們大多數人，外面披了一層完美的披風掩飾著。

I can identify with that. Absolutely.

我認同你說的，沒錯。

And decided that this is the only way to validate your sense of self. So she's actually kind of

很顯然的，這是證明你有自覺的唯一辦法。她能力很好，

doomed because she is good at so many things. You know, whenever a parent starts out by telling me,

但這反而害慘了她，每當父母一開口就跟我說，

"You know, the problem with my child is that my child has so much potential,"

「我的孩子潛能多到我都不知道該怎麼辦了。」

I go, "Oh, the child is doomed.' You know, "My child is gifted." I go, "Doomed."

我心想「這孩子完了。」或是跟我說「我的孩子天生就很優秀。」我想「完了。」

Because this is all coming from the outside. So as you can see with her, she's now created

因為這些都只是外在的一切。所以你可以看到她身上，被貼上了

markers of her identity not based on much internal but all things external.

許多身份的標籤，但都是來自她外在表現，而不是內在。