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字幕列表 影片播放

  • There is an entire genre of YouTube videos

    YouTube 裡有一整類這種影片

  • devoted to an experience which

    我敢肯定在場所有人都有和 影片裡一樣的經歷

  • I am certain that everyone in this room has had.

    它會找來一個人

  • It entails an individual who,

    讓他覺得只有他自己在場

  • thinking they're alone,

    然後讓他做一些表達自己的行為

  • engages in some expressive behavior

    比如大聲唱歌,誇張地跳舞,

  • wild singing, gyrating dancing,

    或者一些性感動作

  • some mild sexual activity

    當這個人發現他並非獨處

  • only to discover that, in fact, they are not alone,

    其實有人在看偷著他時

  • that there is a person watching and lurking,

    這個發現會使他立刻停止正在做的事情

  • the discovery of which causes them

    並且非常驚恐

  • to immediately cease what they were doing

    他們臉上很明顯的是羞辱和丟臉的表情

  • in horror.

    顯然

  • The sense of shame and humiliation

    這些動作是在沒有別人看時

  • in their face is palpable.

    才願意做的

  • It's the sense of,

    這正是我在最近16個月內 所專心研究的重點:

  • "This is something I'm willing to do

    為什麼隱私這麼重要?

  • only if no one else is watching."

    一個引起世界辯論的話題

  • This is the crux of the work

    它由愛德華 斯諾登的揭密而引起

  • on which I have been singularly focused

    他揭露美國和其同盟

  • for the last 16 months,

    瞞著整個世界

  • the question of why privacy matters,

    把網路

  • a question that has arisen

    這個曾經預示著民主和自由的 前所未有的工具

  • in the context of a global debate,

    轉變成前所未有的用來 肆意監視大眾的空間

  • enabled by the revelations of Edward Snowden

    在這場辯論中有一個普遍的論點

  • that the United States and its partners,

    甚至包括那些對於廣泛監視 感到很不舒服的人

  • unbeknownst to the entire world,

    認為這種大範圍的侵入並沒有實質的傷害

  • has converted the Internet,

    因為只有做壞事的人才有理由想隱藏

  • once heralded as an unprecedented tool

    才會在乎他們的隱私

  • of liberation and democratization,

    這種世界觀隱含著一個議題

  • into an unprecedented zone

    這個世界上有兩種人: 好人和壞人

  • of mass, indiscriminate surveillance.

    壞人是那些圖謀恐怖襲擊或者 參與暴力犯罪的人

  • There is a very common sentiment

    所以他們有理由想要隱藏他們做的事情

  • that arises in this debate,

    有理由要保護他們的隱私

  • even among people who are uncomfortable

    而相反的

  • with mass surveillance, which says

    好人是那些每天去工作

  • that there is no real harm

    回家,帶孩子,看電視的人

  • that comes from this large-scale invasion

    他們不會用網路來策劃炸彈襲擊

  • because only people who are engaged in bad acts

    而是為了看新聞,交流食譜,

  • have a reason to want to hide

    或者計劃孩子的少年棒球比賽

  • and to care about their privacy.

    這些人沒做任何壞事

  • This worldview is implicitly grounded

    所以沒有什麼好隱藏的

  • in the proposition that there are two kinds of people in the world,

    也沒有理由害怕政府監視他們

  • good people and bad people.

    說這些話的人

  • Bad people are those who plot terrorist attacks

    其實是在極大的自我貶低

  • or who engage in violent criminality

    他們其實是在說

  • and therefore have reasons to want to hide what they're doing,

    我同意讓我自己成為

  • have reasons to care about their privacy.

    一個不會傷害他人,沒有威脅性, 又無趣的人

  • But by contrast, good people

    這樣我就不會害怕政府知道我在做什麼

  • are people who go to work,

    我發現這種心態

  • come home, raise their children, watch television.

    和 2009 年谷歌 CEO 艾瑞克 施密特接受採訪時

  • They use the Internet not to plot bombing attacks

    回答關於他的公司以各種方式

  • but to read the news or exchange recipes

    侵犯全世界幾億人的隱私的問題時

  • or to plan their kids' Little League games,

    所做出的回應是純然一致的

  • and those people are doing nothing wrong

    他說,如果你在做的事情是你不希望 讓別人知道的

  • and therefore have nothing to hide

    那麼或許你從開始就不應該做這件事

  • and no reason to fear

    對於這種理念有各種各樣的說法

  • the government monitoring them.

    第一種說法認為那些說隱私並不重要的人

  • The people who are actually saying that

    並不真正相信隱私不重要

  • are engaged in a very extreme act

    怎樣知道他們並不相信呢?

  • of self-deprecation.

    在他們說隱私並不重要的同時

  • What they're really saying is,

    他們的行為卻是想方設法

  • "I have agreed to make myself

    保衛他們的隱私

  • such a harmless and unthreatening

    他們給郵件設上密碼

  • and uninteresting person that I actually don't fear

    還有社交網絡帳號

  • having the government know what it is that I'm doing."

    他們給房門和廁所門上鎖

  • This mindset has found what I think

    通過各種方法防止他人

  • is its purest expression

    進入他們自認的私人空間

  • in a 2009 interview with

    其實他們很清楚他們不想讓別人 知道的事情

  • the longtime CEO of Google, Eric Schmidt, who,

    同樣的,谷歌CEO艾瑞克 施密特

  • when asked about all the different ways his company

    命令他在谷歌的員工

  • is causing invasions of privacy

    停止一切與網路雜誌 CNET (科技資訊網)的交流

  • for hundreds of millions of people around the world,

    因為 CNET 發表了一篇文章

  • said this: He said,

    透露了大量的艾瑞克 施密特的個人信息

  • "If you're doing something that you don't want

    這些信息其實是完全通過谷歌搜索

  • other people to know,

    和其他谷歌產品獲得的(笑聲)

  • maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place."

    相同的情況也發生在 Facebook 的 CEO 馬克 扎克伯格身上

  • Now, there's all kinds of things to say about

    他在 2010 年那個聲名狼藉的採訪上

  • that mentality,

    斷言隱私已經不再是一個“社會規範”

  • the first of which is that the people who say that,

    去年,馬克 扎克伯格和他的新任妻子

  • who say that privacy isn't really important,

    在帕洛阿爾托(美國舊金附近城市) 不止購買了他們的房子,

  • they don't actually believe it,

    並且買了相鄰四個房子 總值三千萬美元

  • and the way you know that they don't actually believe it

    為了確保他們享有足夠的私人空間

  • is that while they say with their words that privacy doesn't matter,

    防止人們監視他們的私人生活

  • with their actions, they take all kinds of steps

    在過去的十六個月, 我一直在世界各地遊說這個問題

  • to safeguard their privacy.

    每當有人跟我說

  • They put passwords on their email

    ”我真的不擔心隱私受到侵犯,

  • and their social media accounts,

    因為我沒有什麼需要隱藏的。”

  • they put locks on their bedroom

    我總是對他們回答一樣的話

  • and bathroom doors,

    我拿出一支筆,寫下我的郵箱地址

  • all steps designed to prevent other people

    我說:“這是我的郵箱,

  • from entering what they consider their private realm

    我希望回家之後把你所有郵箱賬號的 密碼發給我,

  • and knowing what it is that they don't want other people to know.

    不僅僅是你工作上用的那些 一本正經的郵箱

  • The very same Eric Schmidt, the CEO of Google,

    我要所有的

  • ordered his employees at Google

    因為我就是想讀遍所有你的網上記錄

  • to cease speaking with the online

    然後將我認為有趣的內容發表出來

  • Internet magazine CNET

    畢竟你不是個壞人 你沒做什麼壞事

  • after CNET published an article

    你就沒什麼好隱藏的“

  • full of personal, private information

    沒有任何一個人接受我的提議

  • about Eric Schmidt,

    我查過(掌聲)

  • which it obtained exclusively through Google searches

    我一直在認真的查看那個郵箱

  • and using other Google products. (Laughter)

    那裡一直很荒涼

  • This same division can be seen

    這是有原因的

  • with the CEO of Facebook, Mark Zuckerberg,

    因為我們作為人類

  • who in an infamous interview in 2010

    即使一些人嘴上否認隱私的重要性

  • pronounced that privacy is no longer

    但他們心裡很清楚它深遠的重要性

  • a "social norm."

    事實上,作為人類,我們是社會性動物

  • Last year, Mark Zuckerberg and his new wife

    這意味著我們需要其他人

  • purchased not only their own house

    知道我們在做什麼,說什麼,想什麼

  • but also all four adjacent houses in Palo Alto

    這也是為什麼我們自願的在網上 發佈自己的信息

  • for a total of 30 million dollars

    但是和成為一個自由的、完整的人類 同等重要的是

  • in order to ensure that they enjoyed a zone of privacy

    我們需要有一個地方完全遠離 其他人批判的目光

  • that prevented other people from monitoring

    為什麼我們要找到這樣一個地方 原因是我們所有人

  • what they do in their personal lives.

    -並非只有那些恐怖分子者和罪犯,而是我們所有人-

  • Over the last 16 months, as I've debated this issue around the world,

    都有想要隱藏的東西

  • every single time somebody has said to me,

    許多我們做的、想的各種各樣的事情

  • "I don't really worry about invasions of privacy

    我們只願意告訴自己的醫生,

  • because I don't have anything to hide."

    或者律師,或者心理醫生, 或者配偶,或者好朋友。

  • I always say the same thing to them.

    如果全世界都知道我們會覺得很囧

  • I get out a pen, I write down my email address.

    我們每天都會判斷

  • I say, "Here's my email address.

    某些我們說的、想的、做的某些事情

  • What I want you to do when you get home

    我們願意讓別人知道

  • is email me the passwords

    還有某些我們說的、想的、做的某些事情

  • to all of your email accounts,

    我們不願意讓別人知道

  • not just the nice, respectable work one in your name,

    人們可以很輕易地以言語宣稱

  • but all of them,

    他們不在乎他們的隱私

  • because I want to be able to just troll through

    但他們的行為卻在否定 他們所相信的真實性

  • what it is you're doing online,

    這有一個原因為什麼人們如此 普遍地且本能地渴望隱私

  • read what I want to read and publish whatever I find interesting.

    這不僅僅是個反射性動作

  • After all, if you're not a bad person,

    像呼吸和喝水那樣

  • if you're doing nothing wrong,

    原因是當在我們在一種狀態裡

  • you should have nothing to hide."

    我們可能被監視著,被看著的時候

  • Not a single person has taken me up on that offer.

    我們的行為會有巨大的改變

  • I check and — (Applause)

    我們所考量的不同行為的範圍

  • I check that email account religiously all the time.

    在我們被觀察者的時候

  • It's a very desolate place.

    會大幅縮小

  • And there's a reason for that,

    這就是人類的本性的事實

  • which is that we as human beings,

    已被社會科學、

  • even those of us who in words

    文學、宗教

  • disclaim the importance of our own privacy,

    以及幾乎所有學科領域所公認

  • instinctively understand

    許多心理學研究證明

  • the profound importance of it.

    當一個人知道他可能在被看著

  • It is true that as human beings, we're social animals,

    他的行為會尤其地順從

  • which means we have a need for other people

    人的羞恥心是一個強大的動力

  • to know what we're doing and saying and thinking,

    以避免受辱

  • which is why we voluntarily publish information about ourselves online.

    這就是為什麼

  • But equally essential to what it means

    人們在被看著的情況下所做的決定

  • to be a free and fulfilled human being

    並非他們自己機體的副產品

  • is to have a place that we can go

    而是別人對他們的期望或者是 社會正統所要求的

  • and be free of the judgmental eyes of other people.

    對於這件現象的認識

  • There's a reason why we seek that out,

    被十八世紀的實用主義哲學家 杰裡米 邊沁為了務實的目的大為利用

  • and our reason is that all of us

    以解決了工業時期出現的一個 很重要的問題

  • not just terrorists and criminals, all of us

    就是當組織體系初次大幅擴張和 權力的集中以致於

  • have things to hide.

    人們無法進行監視

  • There are all sorts of things that we do and think

    和控制到他們組織的每一個份子

  • that we're willing to tell our physician

    邊沁的解決方案是

  • or our lawyer or our psychologist or our spouse

    一個建築學設計

  • or our best friend that we would be mortified

    本來的目的是用於監獄

  • for the rest of the world to learn.

    他稱之為全景監獄

  • We make judgments every single day

    其主要特徵是將一個巨大的塔 建立在組織機構的中間

  • about the kinds of things that we say and think and do

    這樣組織的統治者就可以隨時監視 其中的任一個囚犯

  • that we're willing to have other people know,

    雖然他不能一直看著所有的人

  • and the kinds of things that we say and think and do

    這個設計的關鍵處在於

  • that we don't want anyone else to know about.

    犯人無法看到塔的内部

  • People can very easily in words claim

    所以他們永遠無法知道

  • that they don't value their privacy,

    自己是否或者什麼時候是在被監視著的

  • but their actions negate the authenticity of that belief.

    這個發現讓邊沁非常興奮

  • Now, there's a reason why privacy is so craved

    因為這意味著囚犯們會假定

  • universally and instinctively.

    他們隨時隨地是被監視著的

  • It isn't just a reflexive movement

    這種假定成為了順從和服從的終極實施者

  • like breathing air or drinking water.

    二十世紀法國哲學家米歇爾 福柯

  • The reason is that when we're in a state

    意識到這個模型不僅可以用於監獄

  • where we can be monitored, where we can be watched,

    它可以用於任何控制人類行為的機構

  • our behavior changes dramatically.

    學校、醫院、工廠、工作場所

  • The range of behavioral options that we consider

    而且他說這種思維模式 邊沁發明的這種結構

  • when we think we're being watched

    是現代西方社會進行社會控制的主要手段

  • severely reduce.

    讓社會不再需要公然的使用暴政的武器

  • This is just a fact of human nature

    -懲罰,或者投送監獄, 或者處死異議者,

  • that has been recognized in social science

    或者合法地強迫人民對一個政黨的忠誠

  • and in literature and in religion

    因為廣泛的監控

  • and in virtually every field of discipline.

    會在人腦中形成一個監獄

  • There are dozens of psychological studies

    這是一個非常微妙的 且更加有效的

  • that prove that when somebody knows

    使人服從社會規範 或者社會正統的方法

  • that they might be watched,

    這是暴力手段遠不能及的

  • the behavior they engage in

    關於監視和隱私,最標誌性的文學表達 是喬治 奧威爾的小說《1984》

  • is vastly more conformist and compliant.

    我們在學校都學過,它都快成了 陳詞濫調了

  • Human shame is a very powerful motivator,

    事實上,在關於監視的討論中 不論什麼時候提到本書

  • as is the desire to avoid it,

    人們都立即忽略它

  • and that's the reason why people,

    認為它行不通,他們說:

  • when they're in a state of being watched, make decisions

    “在《1984》裡人們家裡都是監視器,

  • not that are the byproduct of their own agency

    他們無時無刻不被看著

  • but that are about the expectations

    這和我們所面對的國家監控是 不一樣的。”

  • that others have of them

    這其實是從根本上誤解奧威爾在《1984》裡提出的警告

  • or the mandates of societal orthodoxy.

    他所發出的警告

  • This realization was exploited most powerfully

    其實不是關於國家隨時隨地在監視人們

  • for pragmatic ends by the 18th- century philosopher Jeremy Bentham,

    而是人們知道他們可能隨時被監視着

  • who set out to resolve an important problem

    這是溫斯頓 史密斯, 奧威爾小說的敘述者,

  • ushered in by the industrial age,

    所描述的他們面對的監控系統:

  • where, for the first time, institutions had become

    “當然,你無從知道你何時在被監視著。”

  • so large and centralized

    他接著說:

  • that they were no longer able to monitor

    “但是,他們隨時想要是都可以插上 監視你的電線。

  • and therefore control each one of their individual members,

    你必須,也確實地活在一個漸漸變成 本能的習慣裡,

  • and the solution that he devised

    假定你發出的任何聲音都會被聽到,

  • was an architectural design

    和除了在黑暗中,你的所有的動作 被監視着。”

  • originally intended to be implemented in prisons

    亞伯拉罕教派也有類似的斷定

  • that he called the panopticon,

    有一個無形的、無所不知的權威

  • the primary attribute of which was the construction

    因為祂的全知全能

  • of an enormous tower in the center of the institution

    總是在看你在做什麼

  • where whoever controlled the institution

    意思就是你從來沒有一刻是私有的

  • could at any moment watch any of the inmates,

    這就是讓你對祂絕對服從最終執行者

  • although they couldn't watch all of them at all times.

    這些看似不同的手段

  • And crucial to this design

    最終的共同的結論是

  • was that the inmates could not actually

    一個人們隨時都在被監視的社會

  • see into the panopticon, into the tower,

    是在培養一致、順從、和屈服

  • and so they never knew

    這也是為什麼每一個暴君

  • if they were being watched or even when.

    從公然施暴的到暗中控制的

  • And what made him so excited about this discovery

    都渴望這種制度

  • was that that would mean that the prisoners

    相反的,而且更重要的是

  • would have to assume that they were being watched

    在一個有隱私的空間裡

  • at any given moment,

    我們可以去某處思考

  • which would be the ultimate enforcer

    辯論,互動,和發表言論

  • for obedience and compliance.

    而沒有別人投來的批判的目光

  • The 20th-century French philosopher Michel Foucault

    只有在此創新、探索

  • realized that that model could be used

    和異議可以存在

  • not just for prisons but for every institution

    這就是為什麼 當我們允許一個

  • that seeks to control human behavior:

    我們隨時被監控的社會存在

  • schools, hospitals, factories, workplaces.

    我們就是容許人類自由的本質慘遭蹂躪

  • And what he said was that this mindset,

    最後,我對這種心理的一個觀察是

  • this framework discovered by Bentham,

    這種認為只有做了錯事的人

  • was the key means of societal control

    才想隱藏,才關心隱私的思維模式

  • for modern, Western societies,

    它確立了兩個非常有害的信息

  • which no longer need

    兩個破壞性的教導

  • the overt weapons of tyranny

    第一個是

  • punishing or imprisoning or killing dissidents,

    只有那些關心隱私的人

  • or legally compelling loyalty to a particular party

    只有那些想得到隱私的人

  • because mass surveillance creates

    被自然的被定義為壞人

  • a prison in the mind

    這是一個我們應該用各種理由避免的結論

  • that is a much more subtle

    其中最重要的是

  • though much more effective means

    當你說“那個人在做壞事”時

  • of fostering compliance with social norms

    你可能是指謀劃恐怖襲擊

  • or with social orthodoxy,

    或參與暴力犯罪之類的事

  • much more effective

    這個概念比行使權力的人所指的“做壞事” 要狹窄的多

  • than brute force could ever be.

    對他們來說,“做壞事”基本上意思是

  • The most iconic work of literature about surveillance

    做對自己行使權利造成一定挑戰的事

  • and privacy is the George Orwell novel "1984,"

    另一個真正有破壞性的 而且我認為更加陰險的教導

  • which we all learn in school, and therefore it's almost become a cliche.

    來自於接受這種思維模式

  • In fact, whenever you bring it up in a debate about surveillance,

    這其中暗含一個交易

  • people instantaneously dismiss it

    接受這種思維模式的人同時 也接受了這個交易

  • as inapplicable, and what they say is,

    這個交易就是:

  • "Oh, well in '1984,' there were monitors in people's homes,

    只要你願意讓自己

  • they were being watched at every given moment,

    對那些行使政治權利的人不造成 傷害或威脅

  • and that has nothing to do with the surveillance state that we face."

    那麼,也只有這樣,你才就能夠遠離開 被監視的危險

  • That is an actual fundamental misapprehension

    而只有那些唱反調的

  • of the warnings that Orwell issued in "1984."

    挑戰權力的人 才需要擔心

  • The warning that he was issuing

    我們同樣有各種各樣的理由 要避免這個教導

  • was about a surveillance state

    你也許此時此刻

  • not that monitored everybody at all times,

    不想參與那些行為

  • but where people were aware that they could

    但未來的某個時候你有可能會

  • be monitored at any given moment.

    就算你是那些已下決心 永遠不會的人

  • Here is how Orwell's narrator, Winston Smith,

    也會有其他人 想要也能夠反抗

  • described the surveillance system

    和敵對那些權力之中的人

  • that they faced:

    比如政見不同的人,記者,

  • "There was, of course, no way of knowing

    積極分子,還有其他很多人

  • whether you were being watched at any given moment."

    這是會給我們帶來集體的好處的 是我們所想要保護的

  • He went on to say,

    同樣重要的是衡量一個社會自由程度 的標尺

  • "At any rate, they could plug in your wire

    不是看這個社會怎樣對待好的、 順從它的公民

  • whenever they wanted to.

    而是看它如何對待不同意見的人 以及那些反抗正統的人

  • You had to live, did live,

    但是最重要的原因是

  • from habit that became instinct,

    一個廣泛監視的制度

  • in the assumption that every sound you made

    會以各種方式壓制我們的自由

  • was overheard and except in darkness

    設定各種行為選擇的禁地

  • every movement scrutinized."

    而我們甚至全然沒有意識到

  • The Abrahamic religions similarly posit

    著名社會主義積極分子羅莎 盧森堡

  • that there's an invisible, all-knowing authority

    曾經說過:“如果你不動, 你不會發現身上的鎖鏈。”

  • who, because of its omniscience,

    我們可以試著粉飾這些廣泛的監視的鎖鏈為無形的或無法測出的

  • always watches whatever you're doing,

    但它對我們施加的限制不會有任何減少

  • which means you never have a private moment,

    非常感謝

  • the ultimate enforcer

    (掌聲)

  • for obedience to its dictates.

    謝謝

  • What all of these seemingly disparate works

    (掌聲)

  • recognize, the conclusion that they all reach,

    謝謝

  • is that a society in which people

    (掌聲)

  • can be monitored at all times

    布魯諾 朱薩尼:格倫,非常感謝 我必須說你的演講十分有說服力

  • is a society that breeds conformity

    但是我想回到十六個月前

  • and obedience and submission,

    關於愛德華 斯諾登,如果你不介意的話 我有幾個問題

  • which is why every tyrant,

    第一個問題對你來說比較私人性的

  • the most overt to the most subtle,

    我們都看到了你的同伴大衛米蘭達 在倫敦被捕的消息,

  • craves that system.

    以及他受到的磨難 但是我認為

  • Conversely, even more importantly,

    就個人參與和風險來說 你身上的壓力也不輕

  • it is a realm of privacy,

    承擔著世界上最大的獨立主權組織

  • the ability to go somewhere where we can think

    給我們介紹一下吧

  • and reason and interact and speak

    格林沃德:我認為人們對於這件事的 勇氣是會傳染的

  • without the judgmental eyes of others being cast upon us,

    所以即使我以及其他和我一起 工作的記者們

  • in which creativity and exploration

    當然知道事情的危險性

  • and dissent exclusively reside,

    美國仍然是世界上最強大的國家

  • and that is the reason why,

    而且它不希望

  • when we allow a society to exist

    你在網上任意泄露他大量的機密

  • in which we're subject to constant monitoring,

    看著一個29歲的

  • we allow the essence of human freedom

    生長於普通家庭環境的普通人

  • to be severely crippled.

    用高度有原則的勇氣承擔著 像愛德華 斯諾登所承擔的這樣的風險

  • The last point I want to observe about this mindset,

    明知道他的後半生會在監獄中度過

  • the idea that only people who are doing something wrong

    或者他的生活會就此結束

  • have things to hide and therefore reasons to care about privacy,

    激勵著我,激勵著其他的記者

  • is that it entrenches two very destructive messages,

    激勵著,我想,全世界的人

  • two destructive lessons,

    包括將來的告密者

  • the first of which is that

    讓他們意識到他們一樣可與參與進來

  • the only people who care about privacy,

    朱薩尼:我很好奇你和愛德 斯諾登的 關係

  • the only people who will seek out privacy,

    因為你多次與他談話

  • are by definition bad people.

    而且你肯定會繼續與他談話

  • This is a conclusion that we should have

    但是在你的書裡,你不會叫他“愛德華”

  • all kinds of reasons for avoiding,

    或者愛德,你叫他“斯諾登”,為什麼?

  • the most important of which is that when you say,

    格林沃德:你知道嗎,我想這是 心理學家們要研究的事情(笑聲)

  • "somebody who is doing bad things,"

    我不是很確定。我覺得原因是

  • you probably mean things like plotting a terrorist attack

    他的一個很重要的目的

  • or engaging in violent criminality,

    我想,其中最重要的一個策略是

  • a much narrower conception

    他知道如果(有人)要轉移對他 所揭露的重點的注意力

  • of what people who wield power mean

    就會試著將注意力集中在他個人身上

  • when they say, "doing bad things."

    因此他一直遠離媒體

  • For them, "doing bad things" typically means

    他努力不讓任何他的個人生活受到查問

  • doing something that poses meaningful challenges

    所以我覺得叫他斯諾登

  • to the exercise of our own power.

    是一種視他為一個重要的歷史人物

  • The other really destructive

    而不是將他個人化

  • and, I think, even more insidious lesson

    從而導致分散對此事件本身的注意力

  • that comes from accepting this mindset

    朱薩尼:所以他所揭露的,你的分析, 以及其他記者的文章

  • is there's an implicit bargain

    已經發展出一個辯論

  • that people who accept this mindset have accepted,

    而且很多政府,比如,已經做出回應

  • and that bargain is this:

    包括巴西,提出項目和方案

  • If you're willing to render yourself

    對互聯網的設計做出一點修改,等等

  • sufficiently harmless,

    這樣說來很多事情都在進行中

  • sufficiently unthreatening

    我很好奇,對你個人來說

  • to those who wield political power,

    什麼才是最後的終結?

  • then and only then can you be free

    怎麼樣你才會說

  • of the dangers of surveillance.

    我們已成功地啟動了轉盤

  • It's only those who are dissidents,

    格林沃德:我想終結對於我, 一個記者來說,很簡單

  • who challenge power,

    就是確保每條新聞有報道價值的

  • who have something to worry about.

    應該公開的得到公開

  • There are all kinds of reasons why we should want to avoid that lesson as well.

    不應該成為秘密的秘密最終被揭開

  • You may be a person who, right now,

    對我來說這就是記者的本質

  • doesn't want to engage in that behavior,

    也是我承諾要做的事情

  • but at some point in the future you might.

    一些人很厭惡政府的監視

  • Even if you're somebody who decides

    如同我剛才講到的那些原因,甚至更多

  • that you never want to,

    我把這看做一份沒有終結的工作

  • the fact that there are other people

    直到全世界的政府不能再

  • who are willing to and able to resist

    監視和控制所有的人民

  • and be adversarial to those in power

    除非他們可以說服法院或其他機構

  • dissidents and journalists

    他們監視的對象真的做了錯事

  • and activists and a whole range of others

    對我來說,這樣,隱私才能被還原

  • is something that brings us all collective good

    朱薩尼:所以斯諾登,在我們TED的講台上看來,

  • that we should want to preserve.

    非常明確地表達自己是

  • Equally critical is that the measure

    民主觀念和民主原則的捍衛者

  • of how free a society is

    但是,很多人不相信這些是 他唯一的動機

  • is not how it treats its good,

    他們不相信這之中沒有錢的摻入

  • obedient, compliant citizens,

    他們不相信他沒有把那些機密 賣給其他國家

  • but how it treats its dissidents

    甚至包括中國和俄羅斯

  • and those who resist orthodoxy.

    這兩個顯然不是和美國的很友好的國家

  • But the most important reason

    而且我相信在坐的很多人 都有同樣的疑問

  • is that a system of mass surveillance

    你認不認為也許斯諾登的某一面 我們誰都沒有見過

  • suppresses our own freedom in all sorts of ways.

    格林沃德:不,我認為這太愚蠢而且荒唐

  • It renders off-limits

    (笑聲)如果你想

  • all kinds of behavioral choices

    我知道你只是在故意唱反調

  • without our even knowing that it's happened.

    但如果你真的想

  • The renowned socialist activist Rosa Luxemburg

    把機密賣給別的國家

  • once said, "He who does not move

    而且如果他真的賣了 他會變得非常有錢

  • does not notice his chains."

    那他不會想要把那些機密

  • We can try and render the chains

    拿給記者來發表

  • of mass surveillance invisible or undetectable,

    因為這樣做會讓那些機密變得不值錢

  • but the constraints that it imposes on us

    想發財的人

  • do not become any less potent.

    會悄悄地把機密賣給政府

  • Thank you very much.

    但是有一點值得提的是

  • (Applause)

    那些指責來自美國政府

  • Thank you.

    來自媒體裡擁護各個政府的人

  • (Applause)

    而且我認為很多時候人們指責別人:

  • Thank you.

    他這樣做肯定不是

  • (Applause)

    出於正當原因

  • Bruno Giussani: Glenn, thank you.

    他肯定有什麼腐敗或者不法的意圖

  • The case is rather convincing, I have to say,

    他們其實更多的是在說他們自己

  • but I want to bring you back

    而不是他們指責的對象

  • to the last 16 months and to Edward Snowden

    因為(掌聲)

  • for a few questions, if you don't mind.

    那些做出這些指責的人

  • The first one is personal to you.

    他們自己只會出於腐敗的原因 做一些事情

  • We have all read about the arrest of your partner,

    所以他們才會假設

  • David Miranda in London, and other difficulties,

    所有人和他們一樣 都身患沒有靈魂的疾病

  • but I assume that

    這就是他們的設想

  • in terms of personal engagement and risk,

    (掌聲)

  • that the pressure on you is not that easy

    格林沃德:非常感謝 朱薩尼:謝謝

  • to take on the biggest sovereign organizations in the world.

    朱薩尼:格倫 格林沃德

  • Tell us a little bit about that.

    (掌聲)

  • Glenn Greenwald: You know, I think one of the things that happens

  • is that people's courage in this regard

  • gets contagious,

  • and so although I and the other journalists with whom I was working

  • were certainly aware of the risk

  • the United States continues to be the most powerful country in the world

  • and doesn't appreciate it when you

  • disclose thousands of their secrets

  • on the Internet at will

  • seeing somebody who is a 29-year-old

  • ordinary person who grew up in

  • a very ordinary environment

  • exercise the degree of principled courage that Edward Snowden risked,

  • knowing that he was going to go to prison for the rest of his life

  • or that his life would unravel,

  • inspired me and inspired other journalists

  • and inspired, I think, people around the world,

  • including future whistleblowers,

  • to realize that they can engage in that kind of behavior as well.

  • BG: I'm curious about your relationship with Ed Snowden,

  • because you have spoken with him a lot,

  • and you certainly continue doing so,

  • but in your book, you never call him Edward,

  • nor Ed, you say "Snowden." How come?

  • GG: You know, I'm sure that's something

  • for a team of psychologists to examine. (Laughter)

  • I don't really know. The reason I think that,

  • one of the important objectives that he actually had,

  • one of his, I think, most important tactics,

  • was that he knew that one of the ways

  • to distract attention from the substance of the revelations

  • would be to try and personalize the focus on him,

  • and for that reason, he stayed out of the media.

  • He tried not to ever have his personal life

  • subject to examination,

  • and so I think calling him Snowden

  • is a way of just identifying him as this important historical actor

  • rather than trying to personalize him in a way

  • that might distract attention from the substance.

  • Moderator: So his revelations, your analysis,

  • the work of other journalists,

  • have really developed the debate,

  • and many governments, for example, have reacted,

  • including in Brazil, with projects and programs

  • to reshape a little bit the design of the Internet, etc.

  • There are a lot of things going on in that sense.

  • But I'm wondering, for you personally,

  • what is the endgame?

  • At what point will you think,

  • well, actually, we've succeeded in moving the dial?

  • GG: Well, I mean, the endgame for me as a journalist

  • is very simple, which is to make sure

  • that every single document that's newsworthy

  • and that ought to be disclosed

  • ends up being disclosed,

  • and that secrets that should never have been kept in the first place

  • end up uncovered.

  • To me, that's the essence of journalism

  • and that's what I'm committed to doing.

  • As somebody who finds mass surveillance odious

  • for all the reasons I just talked about and a lot more,

  • I mean, I look at this as work that will never end

  • until governments around the world

  • are no longer able to subject entire populations

  • to monitoring and surveillance

  • unless they convince some court or some entity

  • that the person they've targeted

  • has actually done something wrong.

  • To me, that's the way that privacy can be rejuvenated.

  • BG: So Snowden is very, as we've seen at TED,

  • is very articulate in presenting and portraying himself

  • as a defender of democratic values

  • and democratic principles.

  • But then, many people really find it difficult to believe

  • that those are his only motivations.

  • They find it difficult to believe

  • that there was no money involved,

  • that he didn't sell some of those secrets,

  • even to China and to Russia,

  • which are clearly not the best friends

  • of the United States right now.

  • And I'm sure many people in the room

  • are wondering the same question.

  • Do you consider it possible there is

  • that part of Snowden we've not seen yet?

  • GG: No, I consider that absurd and idiotic.

  • (Laughter) If you wanted to,

  • and I know you're just playing devil's advocate,

  • but if you wanted to sell

  • secrets to another country,

  • which he could have done and become

  • extremely rich doing so,

  • the last thing you would do is take those secrets

  • and give them to journalists and ask journalists to publish them,

  • because it makes those secrets worthless.

  • People who want to enrich themselves

  • do it secretly by selling secrets to the government,

  • but I think there's one important point worth making,

  • which is, that accusation comes from

  • people in the U.S. government,

  • from people in the media who are loyalists

  • to these various governments,

  • and I think a lot of times when people make accusations like that about other people

  • "Oh, he can't really be doing this

  • for principled reasons,

  • he must have some corrupt, nefarious reason" —

  • they're saying a lot more about themselves

  • than they are the target of their accusations,

  • because — (Applause) —

  • those people, the ones who make that accusation,

  • they themselves never act

  • for any reason other than corrupt reasons,

  • so they assume

  • that everybody else is plagued by the same disease

  • of soullessness as they are,

  • and so that's the assumption.

  • (Applause)

  • BG: Glenn, thank you very much. GG: Thank you very much.

  • BG: Glenn Greenwald.

  • (Applause)

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