Name: 歐洲政客爭取獨立！但商界領袖說：不可能？| The Dip Podcast (European politicians want independence, but business leaders say it's not possible | The Dip Podcast)
Uploaded: 2026-01-27T17:08:07.000Z
Duration: 24 min 32 s

You might have heard all of the noise over the past week over European sovereignty for its critical industries.

你可能這週聽到了很多關於歐洲主權及其關鍵產業的討論。

情態助動詞 A2

動名詞

If it decides it needs to cut ties with the US or China, would its digital factories fail and its AIs just stop replying?

如果歐洲決定要跟美國或中國劃清界線，他們的數位工廠會不會就此失敗，AIs 也會停止回應嗎？

Well, in this episode of the Dip, I spoke to Cedric Naika, who's in charge of everything digital at the German industrial firm Siemens.

在這集的 the Dip 節目中，我訪問了 Cedric Naika，他是德國工業公司 Siemens 負責所有數位事務的主管。

They're the biggest company for factory automation and software in the world.

他們是全球最大的工廠自動化和軟體公司。

So I asked him if China is dictating Europe's future simply because the economics of how they make stuff is unbeatable.

所以我問他，中國是不是因為他們製造東西的經濟學無可匹敵，而正在決定歐洲的未來。

If you look at manufacturing, China is the manufacturing place in the world.

如果你看看製造業，中國就是世界的製造中心。

If you want to see the most modern factories, the most advanced manufacturers, you go to China.

如果你想看看最現代化的工廠、最先進的製造商，你就會去中國。

So you have to be hyper competitive in China.

所以你必須在中國保持極具競爭力。

So one of the things we did is we moved actually R and D, development, resource and supply chain resources into China to be able to compete against those Chinese competitors.

是以，我們做的一件事就是，我們實際上將研發、發展、資源和供應鏈資源移到了中國，以便能夠與那些中國競爭對手競爭。

It's like if you want this gym in which you, you work out with the people which are the fittest and in that space is China.

就像如果你想去一個健身房，在那裡你可以和最 fit 的人一起運動，而那個空間就是中國。

We also moved some of the resources into the US because that market also goes in the direction.

我們也將一些資源移到美國，因為那個市場也朝著這個方向發展。

所以，沒錯，世界已經改變了。

It's a world where you have champions which are coming out of China, out of the us but perhaps also at some space out of India.

這是一個有來自中國、美國，甚至可能也有來自印度的一些佼佼者的世界。

And you need to adapt and forward, invest into those changes rather than being shaped by them.

你必須適應並積極投資於這些變化，而不是被它們塑造。

Ursula von der Leyen has said that Europe must de risk its economy and not get too tangled up in all of the potential geopolitical risks.

烏爾蘇拉·馮德萊恩曾說，歐洲必須降低其經濟的風險，不要過度捲入所有潛在的地緣政治風險中。

Is Siemens in a position to be able to navigate this complex geopolitical world?

Siemens 有沒有辦法在這個複雜的地緣政治世界中找到方向？

Let's say we all need to sort of work with the new realities.

假設我們都需要設法適應新的現實。

I mean, we have an advantage that Werner von Siemens, when it was created 1847.

我的意思是，我們有一個優勢，就是 Werner Siemens 在 1847 年創立時就有了。

In 1847, Werner sent two of his brothers, one to London and one to actually St.

1847 年，Werner 派了他的兩位兄弟，一位去了倫敦，另一位去了聖彼得堡，以便能夠建立那些能力。

Petersburg to be able to set up those capabilities.

Siemens 在其足跡和發展方面，很長一段時間以來都非常非常全球化。

Siemens has been very, very global in its footprint and its development for a long time.

所以我們有能力非常貼近市場，但

So we have the capability to be very close to the market, but

that's being accelerated, to be very honest.

是以，我們正在審視我們的供應鏈，並確保它們在全球層面上盡可能獨立。

So we're looking at our supply chain and making sure that they're on a global level, are as independent as possible.

But the reality, the world is highly, highly interdependent and we want to leverage the capabilities we have by really Interconnecting the swat.

所以我們正在審視我們的供應鏈，並確保它們在全球層面上盡可能獨立。

So we are adapting for the worst case, but

但現實是，世界高度相互依賴，我們希望透過真正互聯互通來發揮我們的能力。

we're preparing for the worst case and adapting for it.

所以我們正在為最壞的情況做準備，但

But we're hoping also for the best case in which this goes in the right direction in terms of those supply chains.

我們正在為最壞的情況做準備並加以適應。

但我們也希望最好的情況是，這些供應鏈能朝正確的方向發展。

Much more important will be our customers prepared, because if we are super prepared, but

更重要的是我們的客戶是否準備好了，因為如果我們準備得非常充分，但

So we need to work with our customers also to make that happen and really localize their supply chain and their development also.

我們的客戶沒有，那就有問題了。

所以我們需要與我們的客戶合作，讓這一切發生，並真正地在地化他們的供應鏈和發展。

And just one of the projects which Siemens is involved with on the software level is this industrial AI cloud, which was launched by Deutsche Telekom and Nvidia.

And it's one of their kind of pushes for digital sovereignty.

這是他們推動數位主權的一種方式。

Digital onshoring to make sure that the data is handled in Europe.

數位在地化，確保資料在歐洲處理。

Why did you think that your company should be part of this 1 billion euro project?

你認為你的公司為什麼應該參與這個十億歐元的計畫？

Because we have different customers and they have different demands.

因為我們有不同的客戶，他們有不同的需求。

So just for everybody, Siemens is one, if not the biggest industrial software provider in the world.

所以，讓大家知道，Siemens 是全球最大，如果不是最大的工業軟體供應商之一。

Not only that we are big in automation, where every third machine is from us, but

我們不只在自動化領域很強，每三臺機器就有一臺是我們的，而且

And a lot of our European customers say, I want to have those software which helps me design a product, simulate and test it, or plan.

許多歐洲客戶說，我想要那些能幫助我設計產品、模擬測試或規劃的軟體。

My factory should be in a European cloud environment, on an Nvidia environment.

我的工廠應該在歐洲的雲端環境，在 Nvidia 的環境裡。

And that's why we work with Deutsche Telekom to make this software available on those environment.

這就是為什麼我們跟 Deutsche Telekom 合作，讓這些軟體能在那些環境裡使用。

We work with many sort of different vendors, but

我們跟很多不同的供應商合作，但

there's definitely a market especially for, if you think more of defense or critical infrastructure, which says, I want to have a cloud infrastructure which actually reflects my needs in terms of independence and sovereignty.

確實有一個市場，特別是如果你想到國防或關鍵基礎設施，他們會說，我想要一個能真正反映我對獨立和主權需求的雲端基礎設施。

But does it really offer digital sovereignty when the AI stack is American, let's say, and

但是，如果 AI 是美國的，而晶片是臺灣的，這樣真的有數位主權嗎？

而且，現階段並沒有一個主要的歐洲替代方案能跟它競爭。

And there's no, at this point, there is no major European alternative which can compete with that.

我的意思是，如果我們認為自己能擁有一個完全歐洲的軟體堆疊，那實在太傻了。

I mean, it would be completely foolish to think that we will ever have a completely European software stack.

我們會有完全歐洲的個人電腦、GPU 等等。

We will have a completely European PC, GPU, etc.

現實是，世界極度分裂，只要我們互相依賴、互相需要、互相合作並找出方法，那就好了。

The reality is that the world is extremely divided and it's good as long as we're dependent on each other, we need each other and we need to work with each other and find ways.

所以我的觀點是，我們可以降低風險，但永遠無法完全消除風險。

So my point of view is we can de risk it, but we can never completely derisk it.

So the importance is what can we do to be able to have certain periods of stability if things change and can adapt to it.

所以重點在於，當情況改變時，我們能做些什麼來獲得一段穩定的時間，並適應它。

But we will always be dependent on each other.

But in this time of geopolitical risk with some sort of event which could happen, we can't predict what it might be which could disrupt this kind of tech supply chain.

但在這個地緣政治風險的時代，可能會發生某種無法預測的事件，而這可能會擾亂這種科技供應鏈。

What are you telling your customers to reassure them?

你會跟你的客戶說些什麼來讓他們安心？

Because if we are so tied up in this complicated world with all of this very crucial hardware coming from all of these other places, then we may struggle if there is an event, whatever that may be.

因為如果我們在這個複雜的世界裡，所有這些至關重要的硬體都來自其他地方，一旦發生任何事件，我們可能會陷入困境。

The thing I tell all of my customers is you cannot predict the future.

我總是告訴我的所有客戶，你無法預測未來。

I'm always being asked what is so and so going to do and so and so going to.

我總是被人問到這個公司或那個公司會做什麼。

All I can say is in times of these changing environments, the only thing you can do is focus on your agility.

我只能說，在這些不斷變化的環境中，你唯一能做的就是專注於你的敏捷性。

So I'm asking all of my customers is be as agile as possible in your supply chain.

所以我總是告訴我的所有客戶，盡可能讓你們的供應鏈更具彈性。

所以不要只找一個供應商，而是

two or three and them to be sort of separated, have your factories way more adaptable.

找兩三個，並且讓他們有點區隔開，讓你們的工廠更有適應性。

So the time in which I built my factory in the lower, lowest cost country to be able to have cheap labor and feed the world from it, that time is over.

所以，過去那種在最低成本國家蓋工廠，以便獲得廉價勞動力並以此供應全世界的時代已經結束了。

So I'm asking my customers, think through it.

所以我要求我的客戶，好好思考一下。

Take the capability to really sort of build agility and go as much digital as possible.

培養真正建立彈性的能力，並盡可能地數位化。

Because when you're digital, you can actually do a lot of with the data before you do this.

因為當你數位化後，在實際執行之前，你可以用數據做很多事情。

So, for example, we have a digital twin of all of our supply chain.

所以，舉例來說，我們擁有我們所有供應鏈的數位分身。

So if a black swan or I don't know is happening supply crisis in chips, there's no chips more available.

所以如果發生黑天鵝事件，或者我不知道，晶片供應危機，晶片不再供應。

So we're sharing with our model digitally what might happen in physical.

所以我們會在數位模型上模擬實際可能發生的情況。

And what the best reaction would be to be able to do this.

We do this if there's an earthquake, somebody we said, okay, what are the other suppliers?

如果發生地震，我們會這樣做，我們會說，好的，還有哪些其他供應商？

我們可以重新編程我們的工廠嗎？

If we have different sort of components, can we test them before we actually produce them?

如果我們有不同的零件，我們可以在實際生產前測試它們嗎？

So you really need to, what we call, we call it a shift left.

所以你真的需要做我們稱之為「左移」的動作。

We shift into the digital world because there you can do a lot of things you couldn't actually do physically and then choose the best option at that time.

我們轉向數位世界，因為在那裡你可以做很多實際做不到的事情，然後在那時選擇最佳方案。

Currently, more than half of the 800 largest European companies which are surveyed by Accenture have yet to scale any major AI investment.

目前，根據埃森哲（Accenture）調查的 800 家大型歐洲公司中，有超過一半尚未大規模擴展任何重大 AI 投資。

And at the same time, the average European worker produces only 76% as much as their US counterpart.

同時，平均每位歐洲工人的產出僅為美國工人的 76%。

There's no shortage of offerings from Siemens and from all kinds of levels when it comes to AI, whether it's S and P and Sage and all of these other kind of corporate offerings from AI.

西門子（Siemens）以及各種層級的公司都提供了大量的 AI 解決方案，無論是 S and P、Sage 或其他各種企業級的 AI 產品。

So why are companies like yours still having to state the case for AI?

那麼，為什麼像你們這樣的公司仍然需要為 AI 辯護？

I mean, let's be very honest, we love change when it happens to others, but

說實話，當改變發生在別人身上時，我們都很喜歡，但是

we don't like it when it happens to ourselves.

當改變發生在自己身上時，我們就不喜歡了。

So the biggest thing we do as Siemens is to change ourselves in terms of adopting AI.

所以，我們西門子（Siemens）所做的最重要的事情，就是透過採用 AI 來改變我們自己。