Name: 太空中的資料中心！與 Matt Tower 關於國際教育未來的想法！ (Data Centers in Space! Thoughts on the Future of International Education with Matt Tower)
Uploaded: 2026-01-16T17:45:35.000Z
Duration: 20 min 40 s

Welcome back to another episode of Breaking Boundaries, the world's premier podcast for international students, or at least in the top 400.

歡迎回到 Breaking Boundaries 的最新一集，這是全球頂尖的 podcast，專為國際學生打造，至少在排名前 400 名內。

I'm John Clark with the TOEFL program, and

我是 John Clark，來自 TOEFL 專案，

today my distinguished guest is Matt Tower, the Vice President of Strategy and Research at Whiteboard Advisors.

今天我的貴賓是 Matt Tower，他是 Whiteboard Advisors 的策略與研究副總裁。

And Matt, to give you some context, previously on the podcast, we've interviewed folks mostly from universities to give their perspective on their particular schools, offer a bit of admissions advice for international students.

Matt，給你一些 context，之前在 podcast 上，我們主要採訪大學裡的人，讓他們分享對學校的 perspective，並為國際學生提供入學建議。

But you are, in my mind, the world's foremost expert on education technology, among other education topics.

但在我心目中，你是教育科技領域，以及其他教育議題方面，全球最頂尖的專家。

Well, I wanted to open up a different can of worms.

You know, in the last two years, there's been a Cambrian explosion of tools often tied to large language models that are disrupting education as we know it.

你知道，過去兩年，出現了大量與大型語言模型相關的工具，正在顛覆我們所知的教育。

And as you think about international students who, and

而當你想到未來幾年計畫來美國大學就讀的國際學生，

we can use the US As a, as a, as a, as a grounding point who plan to come to study at American universities over the next few years, how do you anticipate the learning experience changing in the near term?

我們可以美國為基準點，你預期在不久的將來，學習體驗會如何改變？

And I'll start with the caveat that I think far too much of our discourse in the education space is US centric and frankly often sort of avoids talking about international students because it gets into thorny issues about enrollment and things like that that are really important to making the industry work and frankly are exciting.

我先聲明，我認為我們在教育領域的討論，有太多都以美國為中心，而且坦白說，常常迴避談論國際學生，因為這會牽扯到一些關於招生等重要的議題，這些議題對產業運作至關重要，而且也很令人興奮。

They bring smart young people to the U.S.

他們為美國帶來聰明的年輕人。

I think it's like a complex topic that not that many people are well versed in, so we avoid it.

我覺得這是一個複雜的議題，很少人真正精通，所以我們都避而不談。

Which I don't think is great, but makes me appreciate the work that you are doing here.

但我認為這不是件好事，不過這也讓我更欣賞你正在做的工作。

And Matt, to your point, sorry to interrupt, but

Matt，關於你剛才說的，抱歉打斷一下，但是

fewer than 20% of international students are actually in the U.S.

不到 20% 的國際學生實際上在美國。

and of that 80 plus percent, many are English language programs in countries you wouldn't expect.

而那 80% 多的人當中，很多是在你意想不到的國家唸語言課程。

So just to, just to emphasize that point, you're right, a US Centric view is, is excessively narrow.

所以，我想強調一點，你說得對，以美國為中心的觀點確實太狹隘了。

Yeah, I think that, you know, from an experience point of view, I actually sort of hope it doesn't change that much on the ground.

嗯，我認為，你知道，從經驗的角度來看，我其實有點希望在實際層面上不要改變太多。

I think that the like, core social experience probably isn't that affected by technology.

我認為核心的社交體驗可能不太會受到科技影響。

It is a relatively small part of the overall college experience for traditional college age students.

對於傳統大學年齡的學生來說，這只是大學整體體驗中相對小的一部分。

actually you would know this better than I, makes up the vast majority of international enrollments is sort of that traditional 18 to 24 year old young person.

其實你比我更清楚，國際學生絕大多數都是那種傳統的 18 到 24 歲年輕人。

I like that you mentioned that the core social experience won't change, and

我喜歡你提到核心的社交體驗不會改變，而且

a lot of that is tied to the success of international students as well.

很多這部分也跟國際學生的成功息息相關。

The temptation to use ChatGPT to write essays.

Instructors using ChatGPT to write essay questions.

Do you think that this heralds a significant change the way university classes are taught?

你認為這預示著大學教學方式的重大改變嗎？

Or do you think university courses will look roughly the same in 10 years as they do today?

還是你認為大學課程在十年後會跟現在差不多？

You know, I think they're, I think I sort of break it down into two.

我覺得，我把它抽成兩個部分。

Like a course is trying to achieve one of two objectives, right?

就像一門課程試圖達成兩個目標之一，對吧？

So if we go back to math, it's like you're teaching proofs, which you do often without a calculator, or you're teaching applications, where the calculator is an assumption, right?

所以如果我們回到數學，就像你在教證明，這通常不用計算機，或者你在教應用，計算機是理所當然的，對吧？

You wouldn't do some crazy math sequence without a calculator, right?

你不會在沒有計算機的情況下做一些瘋狂的數學運算，對吧？

And so I think if you bucket it into like, what is this course trying to achieve?

所以我覺得，我把它抽成兩個部分。

Here's how you structure an essay or like, respond to a question intelligently.

That's something that's evergreen and can and should be done in the same way it's been done since, you know, forever.

If it's an applications course, that's saying like, hey, this is a skill that you will take with you forever.

You know, writing a research paper at an upper level, I, I would hope, you know, chatgpt is assumed, right.

所以我覺得，如果你把它歸類成，這門課試圖達成什麼目標？

You know, I, I sort of went to school in this middle ground of like, I didn't have to do a ton of like, shelf hunting in the library and like, you know, going to the librarian to ask where certain resources were.

像是「這要怎麼架構一篇論文」或是「如何聰明地回應一個問題」。

這是永恆不變的，而且可以、也應該用長久以來的方式來做。

如果是一門應用課程，那就是說「嘿，這是一項你會永遠帶走的能力」。

So, you know, I think it's the tools when we're doing practical applications, I think will be an assumption and frankly, it makes those classes more exciting.

所以，你知道，我認為這是在我們進行實際應用時的工具，我認為這會是一個假設，而且坦白說，這讓那些課程更令人興奮。

Like you'll be able to do far more and write higher level, you know, for writing courses or do higher level things with those tools.

像是你會能夠做得更多，寫得更高階，你知道，對於寫作課程，或是用那些工具做更高階的事情。

And then, yeah, we'll have, you know, a subset of courses that are just fundamentals, that are like, you know, whether it's you or chatgpt, writing a sentence here is sort of what you need to look for to make sure it's good.

然後，是的，我們會有一部分課程，它們就是基礎知識，就像，你知道，無論是你還是 ChatGPT，在這裡寫一個句子，你應該注意什麼，才能確保它很好。

I like your distinction between fundamentals and application.

我喜歡你區分基礎和應用的方式。

We've also seen with international Students.

And this is not just a US centric phenomenon.

Globally you've seen a rise in international students pursuing graduate programs and plateau or decline in undergraduate programs.

全球都看到國際學生攻讀研究所課程的增加，以及大學部課程的停滯或下降。

And I know the motivation for a lot of students traveling abroad, the social component is a big one.

我知道很多學生出國留學的動機，社交成分是一個很大的因素。

It's hard to overstate the value of learning from students from a variety of different cultures.

很難誇大從不同文化背景的學生身上學習的價值。

But there's also a focus on post study work.

但也有對畢業後工作機會的關注。

And post study work policies have gone through a significant shift in, in recent, really the last 18 months across many of the major destinations.

在過去大約18個月內，許多主要留學目的地國家的畢業後工作政策都經歷了重大轉變。

So it's difficult to weigh in and forecast with much confidence there.

所以很難有信心地去評估和預測。

But you know, with these, with these facts in mind, one is you have a shifting nature of pedagogy tied to changes in education.

但你知道，考量到這些事實，第一點是教學方法會隨著教育的變化而轉變。

Two, a rise in the pursuit of graduate programs with an eye towards post study work.

第二點是，許多人攻讀研究所課程是為了畢業後的工作機會。

You know, if you're an international student seeking to work in say, stem, do you think that the STEM job market is going to shrink over the next few years or do you think the world will continue to need more computer programmers, data scientists and the like?

你知道，如果你是想在STEM領域工作的國際學生，你覺得STEM的就業市場在未來幾年會萎縮，還是世界會持續需要更多電腦程式設計師、數據科學家這類人才？

Like, I don't know that we will need, you know, 15% more computer programmers in 10 years or not.

像是，我不知道我們是否會在10年後需要，你知道，多15%的電腦程式設計師。

But I can say that with virtually every other technology revolution, it has created far more jobs and far more interesting jobs and, or like, you know, physically easy jobs than the revolution before it.

但我可以說，幾乎所有其他的科技革命，都比前一次革命創造了更多、更有趣、或是身體上更輕鬆的工作。

So like, if you look at, I actually think the raw number of farmers has gone up just because like the world is really big and populations have exploded.

所以，如果你看看，我其實認為農夫的總數有增加，因為世界很大，人口爆炸了。

But I think like farmers per capita is way lower even in the past like 50 or 100 years.

但我認為，即使是過去的50年或100年，人均農夫的比例也低了很多。

And like think most people think that's a good thing.

而且，大多數人認為這是件好事。

So, you know, I have no idea what the raw number of computer programmers will be, but

所以，你知道，我不知道電腦程式設計師的確切數字會是多少，但

I am like pretty confident that we will find ways to use our time in interesting and lucrative ways.

我非常有信心，我們會找到有趣且有利可圖的方式來運用我們的時間。

You know, it could be like I was just reading the other day, there's like a company that's building data centers in space.

你知道，就像我前幾天讀到的，有一家公司正在太空中建造資料中心。

I want to like, you know, tell me more about the data centers and space industry and less about, you know, like technical QA for engineering.

我比較想聽聽關於太空資料中心產業的更多資訊，而不是關於，你知道，工程技術的QA。

Like the entry level software engineering roles.

那就像是，你知道，軟體測試。

as I think about like what an international student could do, it's like, where are the most interesting jobs?

當我想到像是國際學生可以做什麼的時候，就會想，哪裡有最有意思的工作？