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  • Charlie: Sal Khan is here.

  • He's the founder of Khanacademy.org.

  • He provides 10-minute tutorials on the web

  • on everything from math to science to finance.

  • The Harvard MBA and former hedge fund manager

  • has become an online teaching sensation.

  • His videos have been viewed

  • more than 50 million times worldwide.

  • They have been translated to more than 7 different languages.

  • Here is a look.

  • Sal: So the hypotenuse is now going to be 5.

  • This animal's fossils are only found

  • in this are of South America,

  • a nice clean band here,

  • and this part of Africa.

  • We could integrate over the surface.

  • The notation usually is a capital sigma.

  • National assembly, they create the

  • Committee of Public Safety,

  • which sounds like a very nice committee.

  • Some cells have a membrane around the DNA.

  • This is called a nucleus.

  • Notice, this is an aldehyde and it's an alcohol.

  • Start differentiating into effector and memory cells.

  • A galaxy!

  • Hey, there's another galaxy!

  • And for dollars is their 30 million

  • plus the 20 million dollars from

  • the American manufacturer.

  • If these things end up being worth 30 cents on the dollar,

  • let's say that we go to some future state

  • and these really are worth only 30 cents,

  • the most that the private investor loses

  • in this situation is his 7 dollars.

  • If this does not blow your mind, then you have no emotion.

  • Charlie: I am please to have Sal Khan

  • at this table for the first time.

  • Welcome.

  • Sal: Thanks for having me.

  • Charlie: So what am I just looking at?

  • Am I looking at someone who's interested in everything

  • and has a passion to tell others?

  • Sal: I think so.

  • Yeah, that's what I've turned into. (laughing)

  • Charlie: What have you turned into?

  • Sal: I've turned into someone, I guess from my point of view,

  • who gets to, I started off with the math

  • and the physics and the science and the economics,

  • stuff that I knew fairly well from my background.

  • Now I've turned into someone who gets to learn

  • pretty much anything and distill it down and teach it.

  • Charlie: You're learning new things,

  • assimilating them, distilling them,

  • and then teaching them.

  • Sal: Yeah.

  • Charlie: So give me the background that you have.

  • Sal: As you mentioned, 5-6 years ago

  • I was an analyst at a hedge fund.

  • Before that my background was in software

  • then I went to business school, did the hedge fund thing.

  • I started in Boston, and while I was in Boston

  • I had family visiting me from New Orleans.

  • This was right after my wedding.

  • This was in 2004.

  • My cousin, Nadia, I remember we were waiting

  • for the fireworks over the Charles River

  • and we were just killing time

  • and I started giving her these brain teasers,

  • the type of brain teasers you'd give

  • at a software interview for like 25-year-old engineerings.

  • Most people just disengage,

  • "I don't want to deal with that.

  • "I don't want to think right now."

  • But Nadia, here's a 12-year-old, she was like,

  • "Don't tell me the answer.

  • "I need to figure it out.

  • "Okay, can they see each other?"

  • All these type of things about the brain teaser.

  • I was pretty impressed.

  • I started telling her and her mother,

  • "Hey, you should think about

  • "becoming an engineer" or whatever.

  • The next morning, her mom, [Noshradandie]

  • told me, thanks for believing in Nadia

  • but she's actually being tracked into

  • a slower math class, the non-advanced track.

  • I said that's impossible, the stuff she was doing

  • yesterday is way beyond her.

  • She's clearly a bright girl.

  • She's like no, I think she did bad on a placement exam.

  • So when Nadia woke up, I said, "What's going on?"

  • She said, no I ...

  • Apparently she had bombed units,

  • converting gallons to quarts and all that.

  • I said, Nadia, I understand how that can be confusing,

  • but the stuff you were doing last night

  • was way deeper and way harder than units.

  • If you're willing to work with me,

  • when you go back to New Orleans

  • and I'll stay here in Boston,

  • I think we can get you past whatever hurdles you have.

  • She agreed and they went back to New Orleans.

  • Every day after work I would come home

  • and we'd get on the speakerphone

  • for about half an hour, an hour,

  • and I'd start working with her.

  • It worked out.

  • Two or three months, she got up to speed,

  • went ahead of the curve.

  • Then I started tutoring her brothers,

  • other family members.

  • Then you fast forward to 2006.

  • About 18 months have gone by.

  • I was venting to a buddy,

  • I was like, "This is a lot of fun I'm having."

  • By this time I had moved out to California.

  • I was like, "This is a lot of fun.

  • "It's really satisfying, but ..."

  • The first time you give a lecture

  • on least common multiples, it's kind of fun.

  • The second time, it's still fun; a little more polished.

  • The third time it starts to get a little bit tiring to do!

  • He said ...

  • Charlie: Do it one time.

  • Sal: Do it one time.

  • Why don't you put it on YouTube?

  • I said, "No, YouTube's for dogs on scateboards.

  • "It's not for serious learning."

  • Charlie: (laughing) That's true.

  • Sal: Once I got over the fact that it wasn't my idea,

  • I decided to give it a shot.

  • I put it up there.

  • Charlie: Now, which one did you put up there?

  • Sal: It was either Least Common Multiple

  • or Greatest Common Divisor, I forget.

  • I think I did them on the same day, that first day.

  • The cool thing about YouTube is you an sort by upload time.

  • So that first video you'd shown,

  • that was literally, that was one of the early videos.

  • I kind of cringed.

  • I was like, "Oh, that's when I wasn't using

  • "the fancy HD stuff."

  • Yeah, it was on one of those topics.

  • Charlie: And the reaction?

  • Sal: You know what?

  • I had about 20-30 up there, my cousins' initial reaction,

  • and I joke about this but it's true,

  • is that they preferred me on YouTube than in person!

  • Charlie: (laughing)

  • Sal: I'll take that for what it's worth.

  • It made sense.

  • Charlie: You need not come to the next family gathering.

  • Just send us ...

  • Sal: (laughs) Yeah, Sal can be annoying sometimes.

  • Charlie: When did it become Khan Academy?

  • Sal: You fast forward, it soon became clear,

  • maybe in 6 months, even from the beginning

  • random people started watching it,

  • but then fast forward 6 months,

  • I probably had 50 or 100 videos,

  • and I started getting these random letters

  • from people, just on YouTube.

  • If you look on YouTube, people aren't always

  • that civil on YouTube in terms of what they write.

  • For the most part, everyone was writing,

  • "Hey, thanks a bunch, this helped me."

  • Some people would write,

  • "I was going to flunk calculus until I got this video."

  • Or "I wasn't going to become an engineer

  • "because I couldn't handle the course load

  • "until I saw that video on vectors"

  • or whatever it might be.

  • It started to dawn on me that this could be

  • more than a hobby, although it stayed a hobby right then.

  • I think the first time Khan Academy came about,

  • I think it was 2007, I had decided to set up

  • my own domain name, and so have another way

  • of viewing the videos.

  • I also started working on the software

  • for my cousins so I could give them problems

  • and give them exercises, and I put it all on that site.

  • I was working for a hedge fund

  • called Wohl Capital and my boss was Dan Wohl

  • and I said, "Well, I'm Sal Khan

  • "so I'll call it Khan Academy." (laughs)

  • Charlie: (laughs) What are your dreams?

  • What do you want it to be?

  • Sal: I used to be kind of quiet about this dream

  • because it seemed kind of like a crazy thing.

  • Even last year it would have seemed crazy

  • for me to say what I'm about to say,

  • but now, I think there's a potential for-

  • Online learning, no one takes it ser-,

  • They take it seriously, they think it has value,

  • but online learning is here

  • and your prestigious universities are over here.

  • They're not in the same conversation.

  • I'm hoping Khan Academy can turn into an institution

  • that, I don't want to say rivals, but it's

  • talked in the same conversation as some of these things

  • that have been around for hundreds of years.

  • Charlie: In the places where you can learn.

  • Sal: In the places where you can learn

  • at a very high level.

  • So you can start at arithmetic but you can go deep

  • and it's a real learning experience,

  • it's not something superficial.

  • Charlie: So how many people work for you now?

  • Sal: We have 8 people.

  • We just have 8, we had 6 if you'd asked last week.

  • Charlie: So eventually you will give diplomas?

  • Sal: That's an open question.

  • If you focus just on K through 12,

  • and our video content goes well beyond K through 12,

  • but just on K through 12, right now what really matters

  • is some of these standardized tests,

  • the SATs, the AP tests, high school diplomas,

  • kids are getting into Harvard based

  • on just being home schooled right now.

  • We see our real niche right now on the learning side.

  • Standard education's really learning and credentialing.

  • We're going to tackle the learning as well as we can.

  • In the future, we'll see what we can do

  • on the credentialing side.

  • Charlie: You've got a remarkable group of people

  • who believe what you're doing; people from Google,

  • Bill Gates and a lot of others have cited you

  • for what you have done and what you are doing.

  • Is there any pushback from what you have accomplished?

  • Does anybody say, "Yes, but"?

  • Sal: My sense of the pushback is

  • sometimes these articles get written where

  • the article itself is fairly balanced and reasonable,

  • but they'll title it like "Will Khan Academy

  • "Demolish Traditional Education?"

  • Charlie: Where was this?

  • Sal: Oh, I don't know, I'm exaggerating.

  • There was one that recently came out,

  • will it flip the classroom, or turn education upside down

  • or something like that.

  • There are these headlines that are very

  • attention-grabbing.

  • I think when someone reads that, they've become

  • cynical about these panacea solutions

  • to a big problem, so they might say oh, no,

  • there's no way that something like this

  • could solve all of our problems.

  • For the most part, I think, when people

  • understand what they're doing,

  • we haven't gotten a lot of resistance.

  • Charlie: Who are the people who are watching?

  • Sal: That's the surprising thing, who's watching.

  • When I started off, it was for my cousins.

  • I kind of just made them for my cousins,

  • they wanted to learn, I was there as kind of

  • their big brother type figure, so I was motivating them.

  • Still, when I make the videos, I'm kind of like,

  • "Well, if I wanted to learn this subject,

  • "what would I want, how would I want it to be explained?"

  • I thought that it would appeal to a certain

  • subset of people, people who like to watch

  • the Discovery Channel and Charlie Rose and all the rest.

  • Charlie: I'm hooked.

  • Sal: (laughing) So I'm really focused on

  • the intuition and the going deep and showing

  • how it connects and all of these things

  • that sometimes get lost in some textbooks in some classes.

  • The surprising thing is I get letters from

  • that group of people, but I do get letters

  • from parents of students with learning disabilities,

  • kids who were otherwise disengaged from math class

  • or from school generally,

  • and then over here they all of a sudden discover a love.

  • Charlie: That is the most important question

  • to come out of the conversation between the two of us.

  • What is it you know, what is it you do

  • that somehow makes learning more attractive,

  • more interesting, more satisfying and more productive?

  • Sal: I don't know that I definitely have "the" answer.

  • I have guesses.

  • Charlie: Guess for me.

  • Sal: I started off making it for my cousins.

  • I kind of didn't care.

  • I was kind of like this liberated person.

  • If someone had told me in 2004,

  • "I'm going to give you a couple million dollars.

  • "Produce something that's going to reach

  • "millions of people and Bill Gates is going to watch it"

  • and all the rest,

  • I probably would have produced something different.

  • I probably would have gotten fancy lighting

  • and put some makeup on and got some computer graphics,

  • and probably produced a lot of the education material

  • that's already out there.

  • These computer graphics,

  • "The next stage of photosynthesis is when the ..."

  • But I think the reality is,

  • that's what we all assume is good content,

  • but when someone watches it, it's so dehumanizing.

  • You kind of check out.

  • That's not talking to me.

  • When I made it, it was literally just me in a room,

  • people can tell, it's just some dude,

  • he's not getting paid, he's making it for his cousins,

  • so they can tell there's a human element to it.

  • They can tell that, a lot of times when people

  • are trying to get people engaged into math,

  • they try to distract them.

  • They'll do like a rap song or they'll play all this music,

  • and I think people find that patronizing.

  • They're like, look, don't distract me.

  • If math is good, it should be able

  • to stand up on its own.

  • Charlie: That's exactly what I believe

  • about this show.

  • Same thing.

  • It's a black room.

  • Just a conversation between interesting people.

  • That's all it is.

  • That's what people want.

  • They don't want a lot of bells and whistles.

  • Sal: No, you're insulting people.

  • If you have bells and whistles it's meaning

  • it's not worth watching.

  • Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  • Charlie: Sal Khan is a very interesting person.

  • If you don't know about him,

  • you'll learn a whole lot here.

  • This kind of conversation

  • will penetrate that veil of complexity;

  • and give you a channel to access complexity.

  • Sal: I wholeheartedly agree.

  • Maybe I was subconsciously inspired by you.

  • Charlie: No, you weren't.

  • But it is the same idea.

  • When I hear you say it, I realize

  • that's exactly the way we approach,

  • that's my mindset as well.

  • What's the hardest thing about this?

  • 24 hours in a day?

  • Sal: 24 hours in a day.

  • I think now the hardest thing is,

  • I really want me to be all about

  • continuing to make videos.

  • I want most of my day, the learning and the producing.

  • Charlie: But, what?

  • Sal: But, and this is another interesting thing

  • about Khan Academy, because I've put these videos out there

  • and people watch them, I'm kind of associated with them.

  • I can use that as a platform to engage in the discussion,

  • however you want to view it.

  • I still think my biggest role,

  • and probably the highest leverage for my time,

  • are those videos.

  • Even though those videos, that video on line integrals

  • in the first week might only be watched by

  • a few hundred people, I think over the next

  • hundred years, that'll be a big impact.

  • Charlie: Do people come to you all the time

  • and say, "We can monetize this"?

  • Sal: They used to.

  • About 2 or 3 years ago, when Khan Academy had gotten to-,

  • kind of people started to know about it,

  • but I still had my day job at the hedge fund,

  • a couple of VCs approached, hey, we could do a double

  • bottom-line hybrid model, a fremium or whatever,

  • I don't know, all these things.

  • Actually I got to meeting two with one of them.

  • Meeting one was a lot of fun because they're like

  • hey, you can make a salary to do this

  • and if it all works out you're going to be rich

  • and all of that.

  • But meeting two was let's focus on this market

  • because we can monetize this.

  • I was like, "No, but I feel like doing Civil War videos."

  • I said no, I can't, because it was too much fun

  • to give up the fun part of it regardless of the upside.

  • Even though I didn't know what a nonprofit

  • would entail to start and how do you raise

  • money for it or anything, that's where it became clear

  • that, no, I wanted it to be a ...

  • I was like, what are all these universities?

  • Oh, they're not-for-profits?

  • I want to be a not-for-profit, too.

  • Charlie: So that's what you've become?

  • Sal: That's what we've become.

  • Charlie: So you get a lot of money

  • from people like Gates or John Doerr or Ann Doerr

  • and people like that who believe in what you do and say ...

  • Sal: Yeah. Ann and John were the first, literally,

  • I'd quit my job in 2009 and the savings

  • started to go like this and it was Ann in particular

  • who really stepped up and allowed me to get a first salary

  • and then Google and Bill Gates

  • and everyone else started to get involved.

  • Charlie: Take a tangent from you for a second.

  • What's wrong with the way we teach?

  • Sal: More than the way we teach, I think it's

  • a systemic thing of how the school is structured.

  • Right now you have, you and I were sitting

  • in algebra class, pre-albegra class,

  • and they're going over negative numbers.

  • Maybe you get a 95% on the exam.

  • You feel good about yourself.

  • You can an A stamped on your forehead or whatever.

  • Let's say I get a 70%, it's a C or a D.

  • There's an assessment and it does identify

  • that I have big weaknesses.

  • You have even some weaknesses.

  • You had a 95%, so there's still 5% you didn't know.

  • Negative numbers is a core thing.

  • You need to know that really well.

  • Despite that, the whole class then moves

  • to the next concept and builds on it.

  • They assume that everyone had mastery

  • when they've just shown that no one does.

  • You keep marching everyone down that path

  • and people just keep having gaps in their knowledge.

  • What you have is when you get to,

  • and we've all seen this with ourseleves,

  • family members, everyone hits a certain math class

  • or a certain science class where they hit a wall;

  • where all of a sudden that A student or that B student

  • just starts flunking, they just can't-

  • They have good teachers and they're trying to study

  • and they're hitting their head against a wall

  • and it's because they have all of these gaps.

  • Once you're in algebra class, there's no way

  • to identify the gap in fourth grade,

  • or identify the gap in pre-algebra.

  • Or once you're in calculus, there's no way

  • to identify that algebra gap.

  • I think that that's the problem.

  • No matter how good a teacher you have,

  • you have just a weak foundation.

  • Charlie: This is Fortune, August 24:

  • "His low-tech, conversational tutorials,

  • "Khan's face never appears and viewers see only

  • "his unadorned step-by-step doodles and diagrams

  • "on an electronic blackboard, more than merely

  • "another example of viral medial distributed

  • "at negligible cost to the universe,

  • "Khan Academy holds the promise of virtual school,

  • "an educational transformation that de-emphasizes

  • "classrooms, campus and administrative infrastructure

  • "and even brand-name instructors.

  • "Quick, free and easy to understand.

  • "Khan has his skeptics in the education business.

  • "They don't doubt he means well and is helping students,

  • "but they question the broad impact

  • "of any tutorial that doesn't test performance

  • "or allow student-teacher discussion."

  • Is that a point?

  • Sal: It's a point. (laughing)

  • As all points are.

  • Charlie: Nothing more; it's a point!

  • Sal: It is a point.

  • Charlie: Everybody's entitled to a opinion.

  • Sal: Or more!

  • Charlie: Maybe two, three.

  • Sal: Maybe two or three.

  • To rebut that last point is that that's exactly why

  • we have the videos and I keep making videos.

  • But as soon as we got funding, that little

  • simple software that I started building

  • for my cousins to measure what they knew

  • and what they didn't know.

  • That's why we started building it

  • into this exercise platform.

  • I think over time, the videos will always be

  • a big part of Khan Academy,

  • but this exercise piece where students start

  • at 1+1, it keeps generating problems for them

  • until they can master a concept, and only then

  • move on to the next concept.

  • That's going to become a bigger and bigger piece of it.

  • So, to rebut that, no, we are doing the assessment

  • and the feedback.

  • Charlie: Do you see it as supplementary

  • to the process of education or a main line

  • in the process of education?

  • Sal: We view ourselves as in the beginning

  • of this process, and I've been at it 4 or 5 years.

  • As an organization we've only been at it 6 or 7 months.

  • Our goal is that with Khan Academy alone,

  • if there's a student in Kolkata, they need

  • an internet connection so that's a gating factor,

  • but if they're there, they can get a pretty solid

  • grounding in a lot of different subject areas,

  • especially ones that are meaningful to them

  • that they can use to progress.

  • But, we think it can also be the operating system

  • of what happens in the classroom to really

  • liberate what happens inside of a classroom.

  • Charlie: How many of them do you do yourself?

  • Sal: I've produced all the videos.

  • Charlie: That's what I thought.

  • Sal: I'm the faculty

  • Charlie: You are the faculty of one, yeah.

  • Sal: Our meetings are very non-bureaucratic.

  • Charlie: Let's assume you're interested

  • in Napoleon and in the French Revolution.

  • What do you do?

  • How to do you prepare?

  • What's the process of going from

  • "I'm curious about Napoleon" to

  • "This is what I have to teach you.

  • "This is your access to understand this moment in history"?

  • Sal: Once again, I approach it from

  • what my brain would like to see.

  • For me, in history in particular,

  • I don't feel like I got this in the history books,

  • and even now when I prepare,

  • I'm not getting it from the history books on my shelf,

  • I like to see a scaffold.

  • I like to see a map.

  • What is a Holy Roman Empire?

  • What is that now?

  • Charlie: How they got to an empire.

  • Sal: What are these things?

  • People can just keep referring to them,

  • but if I can't ...

  • So what I do is, for history, I immerse myself

  • in it as much as possible.

  • I usually read Wikipedia entry first,

  • just to get the scaffold.

  • Charlie: Same thing I do.

  • I go for the scaffold myself.

  • Sal: Get the scaffold and-

  • Charlie: Just as a learning experience.

  • Sal: Just as a learning experience.

  • Charlie: I want to see where it fits.

  • I want to see the geography of the place.

  • What does it look like?

  • Sal: The beauty, also Wikipedia, if I find cool maps

  • along the way, I copy and paste.

  • I make sure they're in the public domain.

  • I copy and paste, stick it on my little

  • blackboard art program.

  • Sometimes I'll draw out a timeline

  • just to make sure that I get the years right.

  • But the main thing I do,

  • whether it's history of chemistry or anything,

  • is get the scaffold and then really immerse myself

  • for however long it takes.

  • Then make sure that I can make

  • intuitive connections between everything that happens.

  • Charlie: What's that, an intuitive connection?

  • Sal: Understand why something,

  • if I'm doing it on the neuron,

  • a biology book will tell you the signal

  • goes across because there's a myelin sheath.

  • I'm like, yeah, but how does putting a little

  • tissue around a neuron, how does it make

  • the signal go faster?

  • No biology book will tell you that answer.

  • I'd kind of ponder it a bit,

  • and then, you know, it's kind of like

  • a fiberoptic system and one's kind of amplifying

  • the signal, but you amplify too-

  • Then I'd call up some buddies,

  • who are either biologists

  • or communications engineers or whatever,

  • I'll say, "Does this make sense?"

  • They're like, "No, I think you're right."

  • It's a big deal for me, if I'm doing biology,

  • why does the myelin sheath make the signal go faster?

  • If it's history, why did this artillery captain

  • all of a sudden come to power?

  • Weren't there other people around?

  • These obvious questions are important for me to answer.

  • What's really cool is sometimes you call a buddy

  • and you're like, "I know you're going to think I'm stupid

  • "when I ask you this and you're probably going to think

  • "I have no business making a video on this

  • "considering I'm asking you this question,

  • "but why does the Sarcoplasmic reticulum

  • "release these ions when this happens?"

  • They're like, "You know what, we don't know."

  • I'm like why doesn't the book tell me that?

  • Everyone would like it better.

  • Charlie: What do your former colleagues

  • at the hedge fund say?

  • Sal: They're super happy about it.

  • My last boss told me, "Hey, if I knew you

  • "were going to do this, I wouldn't have hired you." (laughing)

  • Charlie: It's great to find something

  • that you have great passion for

  • and involve learning yourself.

  • Sal: I think I've subconsciously been inspired by you.

  • Years ago, I was just, "Charlie Rose got the best job."

  • He's just got to learn everything.

  • I'm doing it my own way.

  • Charlie: It's great to meet you.

  • Thank you very much.

  • Sal: Oh, thank you.

  • Charlie: Sal Khan, Khanacademy.com.

Charlie: Sal Khan is here.

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薩爾曼-汗談查理-羅斯 (Salman Khan on Charlie Rose)

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    簡宇謙 發佈於 2021 年 01 月 14 日
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