Name: 羅恩-切爾諾（全集） | 柯南-奧布萊恩需要一位朋友 (Ron Chernow (FULL EPISODE) | Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend)
Uploaded: 2025-06-17T16:13:29.000Z
Duration: 1 h

程度副詞

Hello, my name is Ron Chernow, and I feel very very warmly about

大家好，我是羅恩-切爾諾，我對以下事情感到非常非常溫暖

Anyone who has won the Mark Twain Award for American humor? Oh, I'm including our friend Conan O'Brien

有誰獲得過 "馬克-吐溫美國幽默獎"？哦，包括我們的朋友柯南-奧布萊恩（Conan O'Brien

So it's a delight to be here. Thank you very much. Yeah

很高興來到這裡。非常感謝謝謝

One of the great I mean, I've long been a Twain fan and and I'm a huge history buff. So

我是說，我一直以來都是吐溫的粉絲，也是個超級歷史迷。所以

That award meant the world to me and all the people that turned out. It was just a lovely night

這個獎項對我和所有到場的人來說都意義非凡。這真是一個美好的夜晚

No, I you know, I saw in your your your resume Conan that you had studied history

不，我在你的履歷中看到柯南說你學過歷史

At Harvard and I had studied literature at Yale. So you were in training for my career and I was

在哈佛，我在耶魯學習文學。所以你是在為我的職業生涯做培訓，而我是

You know, I've noticed something which is there's a and other people have pointed it out as well that

你知道，我注意到有一點，其他人也指出了，那就是

Written this string of spectacular biographies and I congratulate you on the Mark Twain. I read all I believe 1,200 pages

寫了這一連串精彩的傳記，我祝賀您寫出了馬克-吐溫。我讀了全部，我相信有 1200 頁

I love it and I learned so much about Twain that I didn't know because you're you've unearthed some amazing stuff about the man and

我很喜歡這本書，我瞭解到了很多我不知道的關於吐溫的事情，因為你發掘出了一些關於他的驚人的東西。

To see his life. I mean, it's very hard to contain this guy's life

看看他的生活我的意思是，這傢伙的生活很難讓人信服

And I think you have managed to do that brilliantly

But I was looking at your work because I believe I have read all of your books, which I can't say to to many people

但我之所以看你的作品，是因為我相信我讀過你所有的書，這一點我對很多人都說不上來

But there's an interesting there's an interesting path to the order in which you wrote because you start out and you write about JP Morgan and

但你寫作的順序有一個有趣的過程，因為你一開始就寫摩根大通和

Great Gilded Age industrialist, which then got you interested and and and wet your appetite for your next book, which is Rockefeller

偉大的鍍金時代實業家，這讓你對下一本書產生了興趣，並打動了你的胃口，這本書就是《洛克菲勒》。

Which then got you interested in finance and you know, you think I'll go back to

這讓你對金融產生了興趣，你知道，你認為我會回到

The beginning the source who's running finance in America at the very be it will Hamilton you write that book

美國金融業的領軍人物--漢密爾頓--你寫這本書的開端

I know your plan all along was for it to be a musical with a lot of rap

我知道你一直以來的計劃是讓它成為一部有大量說唱元素的音樂劇

Yeah, people, you know people always say to me at events, mr

是啊，人們總是在活動中對我說，先生

Did you imagine as you're writing the book that it was going to end up as a hip-hop?

你在寫這本書的時候，有沒有想過它最終會成為嘻哈音樂？

Musical and I always say I think the question answers itself. Yeah, there is a really I'm sure you've seen it but there's an amazing tape of

音樂劇，我總是說，我認為這個問題本身就是答案。是的，有一盤很棒的錄音帶，我相信你一定看過了

Lin Manuel Miranda, he's been invited to the White House to perform his latest work

林-曼努埃爾-米蘭達（Lin Manuel Miranda）受邀前往白宮表演其最新作品

This is obviously a bunch of years ago and 15 years ago or so

這顯然是很多年前和 15 年前左右的事了

He's invited to the White House to the Obama White House to perform his latest work and he gets up to the microphone

他受邀前往白宮，在奧巴馬白宮表演他的最新作品，他站到麥克風前

He says I'm now gonna perform this the you know

他說，我現在要表演這個，你知道嗎？

President Obama and the first lady there and all these assembled people the White House and he says I'm gonna perform my latest work

奧巴馬總統和第一夫人，以及白宮裡所有的人都在，他說我要表演我的最新作品

It's a musical about Alexander Hamilton huge laugh

這是一部關於亞歷山大-漢密爾頓的音樂劇，笑聲震天

Huge laugh and he goes hold on. Hold on. Hold on. No, no. No, I'm serious

他大笑著說，堅持住堅持住Hold on.不，不，我是認真的 No, no.不，我是認真的

It sounded so absurd to people and then of course it became one of them

這在人們聽來是如此荒誕不經，當然也就成了其中之一

No, in fact, you know with with that song a few months earlier

不，事實上，你知道幾個月前的那首歌

He had come to my brownstone in Brooklyn Heights and he's sat on my couch and he started snapping his fingers and he did the opening number of the of the song and

他來到我位於布魯克林高地的褐石公寓，坐在我的沙發上，開始打響指，唱起了這首歌的開頭部分，然後就開始了。

When he finished he said what do you think?

You've taken the first 40 minutes for first 40 pages of my book and you've condensed it into a four-minute song

你把我書中前 40 頁的前 40 分鐘濃縮成了一首四分鐘的歌曲

And I said that's rather amazing, you know

我說，這太不可思議了，你知道嗎？

But what I was thinking and I didn't say to him I said this is kind of embarrassing that took me 40 pages

但我在想什麼，我沒有對他說，我說這有點尷尬，我花了40頁紙

And then a few months later he said, you know go on YouTube I performed it at the White House, you know

幾個月後，他說："你知道的，上YouTube吧，我在白宮表演過。

So I yeah, you know there he is not only performing it at the White House

所以我知道，他不僅在白宮演出

But he got a standing ovation from Barack and Michelle Obama and I thought to myself

但他得到了巴拉克和米歇爾-奧巴馬的起立鼓掌，我心想

I'm really strapped to a rocket with this guy

He's written one song in the show and he's already performed at the White House and got a standing ovation from the president

他在節目中寫了一首歌，而且已經在白宮表演過，並得到了總統的起立鼓掌

First lady. I loved when I went to see the play on Broadway and it's in the initial run when it's and it's the hottest ticket in town and I go to see it and I walk into the lobby and prominently displayed is

第一夫人我喜歡去百老匯看話劇，它在首演時是城裡最熱門的票，我去看它，走進大廳，顯眼的位置是

Hamilton by Ron Chernow is right there and it's like, you know

羅恩-切爾諾的《漢密爾頓》就在那裡，就像，你知道

It's so it's what any historian would dream of

這是任何歷史學家都夢寐以求的。

Do you know I mean that that and I know you would are disappointed that your book on Grant did not become

你知道我的意思嗎，我知道你會對你關於格蘭特的書沒有被出版感到失望。

But Hamilton leads to Washington Washington leads to grant and

但是，漢密爾頓通向華盛頓，華盛頓通向格蘭特，格蘭特通向漢密爾頓。

I mentioned this to you out in the hallway. I love the grant biography because the most shocking thing to me that

我在走廊上跟你提過這件事。我喜歡贈款傳記，因為最讓我震驚的是

I had never appreciated before about grant and I I I thought I knew about these guys

我以前從未了解過補助金，我以為我瞭解這些人

Fights in Mexico, you know, he's in the Mexican-american war and he's

在墨西哥戰鬥，你知道，他參加了墨美戰爭，他

Tries his hand at business and it's really not going well for him. And this is and

他嘗試經商，但並不順利。這就是

The Civil War is approaching but as the Civil War is almost upon us he is carrying and delivering

內戰即將來臨，但由於內戰已近在眼前，他正在攜帶和運送

Firewood like chopping it and delivering it to people in the cold to make enough money to put food on his family's table and then

砍柴，在寒風中給人送柴，以賺取足夠的錢讓家人吃上飯，然後

The period of time between him chopping wood and

Carrying it around to people's homes door-to-door and him being the most celebrated general in the biggest

帶著它走家串戶，他是最大的國家中最著名的將軍

War in the history of the world. It's about two years. No, it's the most insane

世界歷史上的戰爭。大約兩年不，這是最瘋狂的

Yeah, you know and then two years later. He's next to Lincoln. He's the most famous man in America. Absolutely

兩年後他的地位僅次於林肯他是美國最有名的人當然

You know one of the things that attracted me to the grand story was that I felt that all the people

你知道，這個宏大故事吸引我的一點是，我覺得所有的人

That I had written about up until that point we're kind of built for success

在此之前，我一直在寫，我們為成功而生

I mean, you know you read about the early years of Alexander Hamilton. He has a focus a discipline and drive intelligence

我的意思是，你知道你讀過亞歷山大-漢密爾頓早年的事蹟。他擁有專注、紀律和動力的智慧

You know if he didn't do what you know, he ended up doing he would have succeeded. Yes at something

你知道，如果他不做你知道的那些事，他最終會成功的。是的，在某些方面

Washington a very impressive guy even had the Revolution Revolutionary War not come along. He's still a very impressive capable

華盛頓是一個非常了不起的人，即使革命戰爭沒有發生。他仍然是一個令人印象深刻的能人

Yeah, and even John D Rockefeller when he's you know a young clerk on the Cleveland Docs

是啊，甚至約翰-洛克菲勒，當他還是克利夫蘭醫生的一個年輕職員的時候

He said I was after something big who is you know, 50 hundred pages into Ulysses S Grant

他說我在找一件大事，你知道的，《尤利西斯-S-格蘭特傳》有五千頁呢

You figure this guy's gonna end up a footnote in history at best

你認為這傢伙最多隻能在歷史上留下一個腳註？

And so I was attracted to the idea of writing about failure

是以，我被書寫失敗的想法所吸引

I had written about so much success and we all know life is much more about failure

我曾寫過很多成功的故事，但我們都知道，生活中更多的是失敗。

Most of us, you know, then then success and so, you know with with Grant suddenly the Civil War comes along

我們中的大多數人，你知道的，後來成功了，你知道的，格蘭特的內戰突然發生了

He had West Point. He'd been in the Mexican War. He stood out all this military lore in his head, but he's working in his father's

他有西點軍校。他參加過墨西哥戰爭。他的腦海中浮現出所有這些軍事傳說，但他在父親的公司裡工作

Leathergoods store in Galena, Illinois where he's working as a clerk junior to his two younger brothers

他在伊利諾伊州加利納的皮具店做店員，是兩個弟弟的晚輩

You can imagine how that felt the war breaks out

There's a tremendous shortage particularly in the north of you know trained officers and he suddenly meshes with his

特別是在北部，訓練有素的警官非常缺乏，他突然與他的

Historical moment, you know, and then he rises and rise and rises, but he's almost 40 at that point

歷史性的時刻，你知道，然後他不斷上升，不斷上升，但那時他已經快 40 歲了

He could easily have ended up living a life of total, you know

他很容易就過上了碌碌無為的生活，你知道嗎？

Obscurity instead and I think this is one of the things that

Inspired a lot of people reading that this story, you know

這個故事啟發了很多人，你知道嗎？

We all feel that we have something special inside of us if only the right set of circumstances

我們都覺得，只要有合適的環境，我們的內心就會與眾不同

You know happens and grant is kind of the greatest example. Yes, it's it's it's

你知道的，撥款就是一個很好的例子。是的，它是它的它的

If you saw it in a movie, you'd say well we got to fix that part because there's the fact that you have him chopping wood and delivering it door-to-door and maybe getting a nickel for his trouble and him

如果你在電影中看到這一段，你會說，我們得把這一段改掉，因為你讓他劈柴，挨家挨戶地送，也許還能得到五分錢的報酬，而他呢

Saying thank you. Thank you very much and moving on to the next house and then he's a

說謝謝非常感謝，然後就去了下一家，然後他就成了一個

Celebrated war hero two years later in the most consequential, you know

兩年後，在最有影響的戰爭中，他被譽為戰爭英雄。

War of that century if I can say that it's astounding. It's absolutely astounding

如果我可以說，那個世紀的戰爭令人震驚。絕對令人震驚

Today, we're here to talk about Mark Twain. You've written

今天，我們來談談馬克-吐溫。你寫過

I've been waiting for this book because I'm

Schumer for better or worse and Twain is the American humorist and he comes from this era that fascinates me and

無論好壞，舒默和吐溫都是美國的幽默大師，他所處的時代讓我著迷。

I was saying this to someone the other day

Twain has been turned into kind of an emoji, you know, you know the the white suit the cigar the aphorisms that we see all over the place on coffee mugs and everything and

吐溫已經變成了一種表情符號，你知道的，你知道白色西裝、雪茄、箴言，我們在咖啡杯和其他東西上到處都能看到。

Kind of a lovable, you know, I know emoji for lack of a better word and

你知道，我知道表情符號，但沒有更好的詞來形容它。