And you're watching Marie TV for a very special edition.

歡迎收看Marie TV 這次是特別企劃

Because we've decided to do this interview here with my dear friend Chris Guillebeau.

我們這集要專訪我的好麻吉:Chris Guillebeau

And guess what,

猜猜怎麼啦

he got an awesome new book out right now.

他發表了一本超棒的新書

And it's call the Happiness of Pursuit.

書名叫the Happiness of Pursuit

And I'm so excited…I adore Chris, I adore his work.

現在我超興奮的 我很欣賞Chris和他的作品

Many of you know him already.

螢幕前的你們 很多人都看過他吧

We did an interview for his last book – the hundred dollars startup.

他上一本書出版時 也有來上過節目

And he's just the one of the sweetest, kindest, smartes,

人真的非常貼心 和善 聰明

most brilliant people

是個很優秀的人

And I wanna to have a month off maybe, because I thought these concepts were awesome,

而且這書中的想法超棒 我看完都想放假一個月去尋夢

so Chris…Thank you for coming back on Marie TV.

Chris 謝謝你再次來Marie TV

Marie, hello and thank you.

嗨 Marie 謝謝

It's a huge honor. I'm so happy to be back. Thank you!

我很榮幸能再一次上節目 謝謝妳!

Awesome. So tell us about the Happiness of Pursuit

好 跟我們談談the Happiness of Pursuit這本書吧

Finding a quest that will bring perfect to your life

找個課題 讓自己人生更完美

So what inspire you to write this new book?

你為什麼會寫這本書呢?

Okay. So since we last talked,

上次我們聊完之後

I'm in wrapping up some personal project.

我結束了一些個人計畫

It's a request to visit every country in the world.

開始另一個課題: 踏遍世界各國

We talked about it a little bit last time.

上次在節目上有提到一些

I've been working on it for eight years or so.

這課題已經進行八年多了

Then, it's a ten years request in total.

我預定用十年完成

I'm just kind of came to the end of it last year.

去年算是這計畫的尾聲

It was something that's… initially, it's just a personal project.

這是件…一開始 他只是個私人計畫

It was something that I believe in for myself.

是我自己的信念

And I love to travel and I love…

我喜歡旅行 也喜歡…

valuable inspiration and discovery.

有價值的啟發及探索

So… as I presume this request, I knew I wanted to write something about it.

因此我開始從事這個課題 想藉此寫些東西

But fortunately, I didn't just write a book about myself.

幸運的是 我的書裡 不只是我自己的故事

I didn't just write I travel where because that will be kind of boring,

書裡只有寫我去了哪裡的話 會有點無聊

so…all along the way

旅行時 一路上

I was meeting lots of interesting, remarkable people

我遇見許多有趣且特別的人

who were all pursuing a quest or some kind of adventure of their own.

他們都在追尋一種課題 或者說是冒險

And, I wanna to know why did they do it.

我想知道 為什麼他們要這樣做

And what's the lesson they learned along the way

想知道 他們在過程中學到了什麼

and how are they changed for the process.

他們因此有何改變

What did they sacrifice or give up in order to pursue it

他們為了這課題 犧牲或放棄了什麼

And why about others…you know what can the rest of us learn about quests.

還有 其他人…可以從他們的經驗學到什麼

And then…lastly, it's not really meant to be a sociological study.

最後 這並不只是個社會研究

It's not just like the collect of like…this person do this, and this person do this…blah blah

不只是記錄 這人做了什麼 那人又做了什麼 之類的

The book actually has a clear message. And the message is that a quest can improve your life.

這本書有個清楚的訊息就是 課題能使生命更美好

A quest can actually bring purposes and meaning to your life.

課題可以為人生賦予目標與意義

I love it. So let me ask you this…

太棒了 我想問你

Were you, as a young person or as a young boy,

身為一個年輕人 或一個小男孩

were you always into an adventure? Did you have quest when you're little?

你是否一直從事冒險? 小時候你就有自己的課題了嗎?

I don't know if I have quest. For say…I was always a list-maker.

我不知道有沒有 真要說的話 我一直都很愛列清單

This is something that I notice. This is actually really common. For all the people I talked to…

我遇過很多人都會這樣做

I really like to write things down.

我喜歡把事情寫下來

I like to write down my tasks, write down my ideas and outline even in rough form.

寫下我的任務 我的想法 大綱 就算只是草稿

I really like to kind of …you know break things down and just little project sort of thing

我真的很喜歡…將事情分成一個個的小任務之類的

So I think it was…maybe…

我想這是…也許是…

a value that I have… and I'm kind of grew into it more

我的某種價值觀 我讓它變得更…

And then I start traveling and it wasn't like…I went to my first country

之後 我開始旅行 那不像是…去了第一個國家

Oh I'm go to…you know, the rest of every single 193 countries in the world

而像是 還剩下193個國家要去

I'm kind of gain confidence as I have some experience.

我變得更有自信 也得到些經驗

That was something else I saw… a lot of different people

還有 我遇見了…各式各樣的人

They started with this small vision and they kind of came to bigger one later one.

一開始 只是小小的信念 之後 變成規模更大的東西

Interesting. So if I heard you right,

真有趣 所以…不知道我有沒有誤解

and please correct me if I'm wrong

講錯的話 請糾正我

When you started to traveling to different countries, it wasn't necessarily like…

你開始到各國旅遊時 那不是非得像是…

Well…obviously, because you might have done some travel early on in your life

嗯 因為你以前應該有去過一些國家

But as you got that appetite web for travel,

但 對旅行充滿興趣後

you saw an expanded vision… hey

你擴大了你的目標 像是

Why don't I set this adventure goal for myself to see every country in the world

嘿 我幹嘛不設個目標 去踏遍世界各國

So wasn't even like you started off like ‘this is my quest' something that evolved.

整件事 不是說 這就是我的課題!

Yes. Absolutely, I have no idea.

沒錯 一開始我也沒想到

That this would become something that will conceal my life for more than ten years

這件事會涵蓋我人生中的十幾年

I just start traveling. I love traveling.

我只是踏上旅途 我愛旅行

I live in west Africa for a while

我去了西非一陣子

and kind of gain some confidence

變得更有自信了一點

And just really enjoy the joy of being in different places

很喜歡享受到各種地方的感覺

And I think it was after I've been to like fifty countries or so.

我想 是在去了50個國家之後

I was like …it's not difficult after like being to 50ish.

我覺得 去50個國家也沒什麼難嘛

I have a thought that let me set a personal goal. Coz I always like goals.

所以就產生了想法 定下個人目標 我喜歡設目標

I try to go to a hundred countries, right.

我試著去一百個國家

So that was the first one.

這是第一個

And then I start to getting close to that and I thought um…

接下來 快要到一百個了 我就想說

How can I take it up a level because I'm just going to half the countries in the world.

那我再提升一個層次好了 踏遍世上半數國家

It's kind of cheat a little bit.

這有點算作弊

So you know… I could just pick the easy countries. So yea. That was something I were into, totally.

我選了比較簡單的國家 總之 我全心全意做這件事

I really…for me, what made the differences was

我真的…對我來說 不同的是

combining travel with goal setting,

將旅行與目標融為一體

Combining travel with something specific,

旅行的同時 也從事特定事物

with structure, with a little bit of container to it.

在旅行這容器中又多加了些結構

And that's just kind of change the whole purpose and focus for me.

這似乎完全改變了我的目標與重心

And you saw that with the people and the book as well that they perhaps started something

你能看到書中的人們可能正開始些什麼

Their appetite got web. And all of a sudden a new bigger world open up for them

他們充滿渴望 突然 廣闊的新世界為他們開啟

That became this quest, this adventure they want to go on?

所以這課題是這麼來的? 是個持續下去的冒險?

Yes. Very often. And the specificity hunts a lot

沒錯 而且明確性影響很大

There is one story – Robin Devin and Omehan Annarasca

有個Robin Devin和Omehan Annarasca的故事

she's knitter.

她是個編織者

And she's like super excited about knitting and she's artist, she make stuff and

她很愛編織 是個藝術家 會做手工

She has this project to make hats for people.

她正在進行一個計畫 為人們做帽子

and that's how it was at first. She's like I'm gonna make hats

一開始是這樣的 她想說 我要來做帽子

so she makes hat for a friend or family just like the other knitters do.

所以她就像其他編織者一樣 為親友做帽子

But then, she had the idea of creating some specific structure to it.

後來 她想說 創造一種固定模式好了

And at first she thought…I wanna knit a thousand hats

剛開始 她計畫做一千頂帽子

like…wonder what that look like you know So she's starting toward that

就像是…想看看這樣會怎樣 之類的 總之 她開始了

figuring how much time and how much money

開始計算時間 規劃成本

and whether any other cost all that

還有其他額外花費等等

And then, she decided to increase the goal and go to the ten thousands hats

後來 就決定擴大目標 要做一萬頂帽子

So now, it's like her life quest to figure how many years it's gonna take.

現在 她的人生課題變成 搞懂達成目標要花的年數

You could actually go to her website and request a hat

你可以上她的網站 索取一頂帽子

maybe your wedding period

可能是妳結婚要戴的

But eventually she's going to make ten thousand hats.

總之 她最後會達成一萬頂帽子

So yea, a lot of people, they found their vision expanded

沒錯 很多人會擴大自己的目標

but then also as they work for something. They may get it more specific.

同樣的 向目標努力的同時 目標也會變得更具體

So let's talk about the link between quest or adventure that we can go on, if you want to call it that

來談談冒險與課題的相關性吧 如果你想這樣說的話

And happiness. What did you discover not only for yourself

還有幸福 你發現了什麼呢? 不只是關於你自己的

but what did you discover from the story that everyone you interview in the book.

還有關於書中你訪問過的那些人 你發現了什麼?

So for myself, you know…when I start to traveling and pursuing the goal

關於我自己 事實上 開始旅行與追尋目標後

I think it kind of came out of the sense of discontent or dissatisfaction

我想 似乎覺得不太滿足 不甚滿意

which doesn't mean that I was miserable or I was terribly unhappy like I have a good life

不是說我覺得自己悲慘或不快樂 其實我過得很好

You know…I have become an entrepreneur working for myself.

我自己創業 當自己的老闆

But yet, I guess I felt I wanted to challenge myself. I wanted more.

可是 我猜 我是想要挑戰自我 想要更多

And a lot of people that we talked to or in the book,

書中我訪談過的那些人

they had the same kind of discontent.

有很多也像我一樣 有某種不滿足

It was yearning for something.

那是對某種事物的渴望

It was yearning to connect something broader in their life.

可望將人生與更多事物連結

They often were happy, they have families,

他們通常過得很好 家庭和樂

they have good jobs or good businesses or something.

有不錯的工作或事業 等等

But yet, you know…they had this desire to go further.

但 他們渴望能走得更遠

That where I saw really a link between the happiness and the pursuit of the goal.

這就是幸福與追求目標之間的關聯性

The pursuit of a goal…you know…bigger than ourselves.

追求比現在的自己更好的目標

Something that is really significant. Something that is really challenging.

有些事物是真的很重要 很有挑戰性

Because there's also a link between a request and a challenge I think.

我想 課題跟挑戰也有關係

If your quest is to go down the street and get coffee and come back.

如果你的課題只是 去街上買杯咖啡回來

That's not really a quest, right?

這不算是種課題 對吧?

When you combine it with something challenging

如果你將課題與挑戰結合

maybe hard but also rewarding

可能會很難 但回報也會更多

You know…that what I think a lot of us can find happiness.

我想 這樣大多數的人都能找到幸福

Have you seen that people are working on multiple quests at once or

那你有看過誰是同時進行好幾個課題嗎?

do most people kind of choose something that feels challenging, needy,

大多數的人都是選擇有挑戰性 迫切性

maybe a little bit scary, totally exciting?

可能會有點嚇人 但很刺激?

Sure. I think there is more than one way…you know… to do it.

當然 我想 課題的方法不只有一種

and I'm always the kind of person that like to work on a bunch of stuff at once.

我是那種喜歡同時從事好幾件事的人

It's just my personality you know. For better or worse.

不管這樣是好還壞 我這人就是這樣

But I also think …you know… a true quest a true adventure

但我也認為 真正的課題 真正的冒險

Does involve some kind of sacrifice.

會包含某種程度的犧牲

You know… it does involve some kind of trade-off.

需要作出一些取捨

I mean that sacrifice is too heavy word so let's say trade-off…you know.

犧牲這個字有點沉重 說取捨比較好

To go to every country in the world, it's like…

踏遍世界各國 這是件…

it was a pretty big thing. There were a lot of things that I have to say no to in order to say yes to that.

這是件大事 我得推掉很多事情

Like what? Like what

像是甚麼事呢?

like building my career…you know…like

像是建立我自己的事業

I was on the road in central Africa and

比如說 我去了中非

central Asia and Bangladesh all these places a hundred days a year often

還有中亞 孟加拉 一年就耗了一百多天

I couldn't really working my business very much…you know…during that time

這段時間我就沒辦法專心從事我的事業

But it was okay. I have to say no to lots of opportunities…you know that are coming through.

但沒關係 我得推掉很多機會 這是必須經歷的

But I guess I really believe in this… prize.

我想 我相信一切是值得的

I really believe in doing it and everytime I was start to think

我相信做這件事是對的 每次我開始想說…

Oh maybe I…you know…shouldn't get on that plane or go to Chad whatever.

不該坐上飛機的 不該去中非的查德 之類的

No. I have to do it. Because this is the rule of everything.

但是 不! 我得去! 這是一切事物的原則

This is the foundation of everything else.

這是一切的基礎

So yes. I think you can do a lot of stuff.

對 我想 你可以做很多事

But I guess it's also…if you believe in something like…

但我想…如果你抱持著某種信念…

it's going to take something from you as well.

這信念同時也會帶來某種犧牲

Yea. I love this discussion because

沒錯 我喜歡這種對話

it's specially…cause I love that you share the self doubt

這特別的…我喜歡你分享你的自我懷疑

that can creep up I think

能加深彼此之間的連結

For anyone who's creative if you…you know…call it a quest

對於有創意的人來說 如果你…嗯…稱它為課題

or if it's a project you know. To write a book or something to build a business…

或是說計畫 去寫一本書 或是開創事業…

To create something that's never been created before

去創造一種從來沒有過的事物

And part of that adventure is that you're bringing it to the world.

冒險的一部份就是 你將它從無化有

I think that self doubt is so…

我想 自我懷疑 真的很…

it's a topic that many of us…like…we don't like to talk about

這種話題 大多數人其實 嗯…不太愛去談這個

I love hearing that you were like…should I get on this plane to Chad?

但我喜歡聽你分享 像是 我該搭上往查德的飛機嗎

I have all these different opportunities coming in.

有各式各樣的機會找上我

I mean…I'm working on another writing project right now. And I feel like

我是說…我正在準備寫一本書 我覺得

doubly the self doubt voices are like…

懷疑 自我懷疑的聲音就好像…

God. Does anyone knowing about this? Do they even care?

天呀 我有懂到能出書嗎? 會有人想看嗎?

It's amazing. Did you notice that the other folks that you interview as well

太神奇了 那些被你訪問的人們

had those wrestling with self doubt

也會這樣與自我懷疑搏鬥嗎?

In pursuit their adventure or quest?

像是在追尋他們冒險或目標時?

Absolutely. Like almost all of them.

當然 大部分的人都是

Almost all of them in different ways. They spoke about it in different ways.

他們自我懷疑的方式不太一樣 談論的方式也不同

People uses different language…but everyone is experiences that thing.

用不同的語言述說 但大家都有同樣的經驗

I think the bigger the challenge, the more the self-doubt and the more the fear.

我認為 挑戰越大 自我懷疑與恐懼也就越多

But also maybe more the stern that you have to do it.

但去做的決心也許也會更堅定

You know. It's this idea. It's not gonna leave you alone.

就是這樣 它不會讓你獨自奮戰

And I think a lot of them are maybe focus on a long-term. They are focus on outcome

很多人也許都注重於長期 注重結果

and they thought about the book they wanna to write or whatever it was. And then,

他們想要寫書 不管寫哪種書

imagine having that out and think about the people who will be helped by it.

想像結果會如何 想像這能幫助到那些人

That's kind of …you got them through…you know they focus on the other side.

你會經歷這些 他們注重的是另一面

I mean…I think a lot of them also.

我想 很多人也是這樣

The other interesting thing to say that they had in common

另外 有趣的是 他們有個共同點

was a lot of them had what I call

許多人都有著一種

The emotional awareness of mortality.

情感上的永生概念

This also sounds kind of heavy,but it doesn't need to

聽起來有點沉重 但其實不會

I love it. We talk about death on marie TV all the time because I think

我喜歡這話題! marie TV常常在聊死亡 因為我認為

I just think it's one of the most sobering and it wakes you up

死是最哀傷的事之一 可以將人點醒

It wakes you up to value every moment so I'm not to interrupt. Let's talk about that.

死能讓人珍惜每個當下 所以我不會阻止你 請繼續說

Let's talk about that reality and mortality.

來談談現實與永生吧

Right. So the emotional awareness of it is suppose to be intellectual awareness.

沒錯 所以情感上的永生是一種智能知覺

I think everyone has intellectual awareness and some mortality which I find in the book

我想每個人都有智能知覺 我在書中找到的永生概念

That just the fact that everybody dies, right? It's a fact.

就只是人皆有一死的這個事實 對吧? 這是事實

But the emotional awareness of mortality…well I notice that

旦情感上的永生概念呢…嗯…我注意到

A lot of these people talk about it in the interview.

大多數的人在訪談中都會談到

And they brought it up…like I don't even ask… “Hey! What do you think about death?” You know…

他們會主動提起 我甚至不用問 “嘿 你對死亡有什麼想法吧!”

It's not really a best interview question.

其實這個問題不是很好