Name: 美國和烏克蘭即將簽署礦產協議？| 英國廣播公司新聞廣播 (Are the US and Ukraine about to sign a minerals deal? | BBC Newscast)
Uploaded: 2025-05-03T00:22:20.000Z
Duration: 28 min 2 s

Remember that massive bust up in the Oval Office between Presidents Trump and Zelensky?

還記得特朗普總統和澤倫斯基總統在橢圓形辦公室大打出手嗎？

That was when they were meant to be signing a deal related to Ukraine's natural resources.

當時他們本應簽署一項與烏克蘭自然資源有關的協議。

That deal looks like it is about to be signed now, months later.

幾個月後的今天，這份協議看起來就要簽署了。

And also it's changed because the BBC has seen a draft.

此外，BBC 看到草案後也對其進行了修改。

We'll explain what's going on in this episode of the BBC's daily news podcast, Newscast.

我們將在 BBC 每日新聞播客《新聞播報》的這一集中為您解讀。

Let's dive into the goings on in Washington DC.

讓我們深入瞭解華盛頓特區發生的事情。

We're joined from there by the BBC's chief news presenter in the US.

我們將連線 BBC 在美國的首席新聞主持人。

And here in the studio is James Landale, diplomatic correspondent.

在演播室裡的是外交記者詹姆斯-蘭代爾。

Right, a few things to talk about, Katrina.

對了，有幾件事要談，卡特里娜。

The GDP figures for America showing that the economy contracted for the first three months of this year.

美國的 GDP 數據顯示，今年前三個月的經濟出現萎縮。

Is that the happy 100 days of your presidency present Donald Trump was looking for?

這就是唐納德-特朗普一直在尋找的你擔任總統的 100 天快樂時光嗎？

Well, it gave him something further to bash Joe Biden with.

好吧，這給了他進一步抨擊喬-拜登的理由。

So maybe it was a present for him in that regard.

所以，從這個角度來說，這也許是送給他的禮物。

He has landed the blame for those figures firmly at the feet of the past president.

他將這些數字的責任牢牢地歸咎於前任總統。

But obviously, he does have to take a lot of blame for that himself.

但很顯然，他自己也要為此承擔很多責任。

And to be honest, it's no surprise everyone was expecting it, including the president himself, by the way, who has refused to rule out the prospect of a recession in this country this year.

老實說，這並不奇怪，每個人都在預料之中，順便說一句，包括總統本人，他拒絕排除今年美國經濟衰退的可能性。

But I mean, you don't need these statistics.

但我的意思是，你不需要這些統計數據。

You can see it around you in real life here in the economy that people are putting off purchases, particularly big purchases, because of the uncertainty that's here created by those tariffs created by the crashes on the stock market.

在現實的經濟生活中，你可以看到，由於股市暴跌造成的關稅帶來的不確定性，人們正在延後購買，尤其是大額購買。

And just a general unknown, unknown as to what may lie ahead.

而這只是一個普遍的未知數，不知道未來會發生什麼。

Although the administration do put forward an argument for why tariffs aren't to blame for this fallen GDP, as far as they see it, they do have a sort of kind of claim about that.

雖然政府確實提出了為什麼關稅不是 GDP 下降的罪魁禍首的論點，但在他們看來，他們確實對此有某種說法。

Yeah, and they're they're talking about creating strategic uncertainty and that, you know, the full impact of tariffs haven't been felt because President Trump has put a delay on all of this.

是的，他們正在談論製造戰略不確定性，而且，你知道，關稅的全部影響還沒有被感受到，因為特朗普總統已經延後了所有這一切。

And it's all part of a great master plan.

而這一切都是偉大總體規劃的一部分。

I mean, the one thing with these economic indicators is you do have to take a longer view of things rather than just in the short term, which is what we have now.

我的意思是，這些經濟指標的一個特點是，你必須用更長遠的眼光來看待問題，而不僅僅是短期的，這就是我們現在的情況。

But you can't escape the fact that the American economy hasn't shrunk like this since 2022.

但你無法迴避的事實是，自 2022 年以來，美國經濟從未出現過如此嚴重的萎縮。

So it has been almost exactly three years.

這樣算來，已經快整整三年了。

James, the other thing that seems to be going on is there are reports that a minister from

詹姆斯，另一件似乎正在發生的事情是，有報道稱，一位來自

Ukraine is flying to Washington to finally sign this minerals deal.

烏克蘭將飛往華盛頓，最終簽署這項礦產協議。

Well, we certainly know that the minister is flying there.

我們當然知道部長正在飛往那裡。

Look, there are various texts doing the round.

聽著，有各種各樣的文本在循環播放。

你知道，英國廣播公司就有一個。

The talk now of a main document and then two other documents.

現在談的是一份主要文件和另外兩份文件。

So there's a bit of confusion about precisely what's been signed and what's been agreed.

是以，對於到底簽署了什麼，達成了什麼協議，還真有點搞不清楚。

There's certainly still some uncertainty about it.

當然，這還存在一些不確定性。

We don't know definitively whether this is the final one.

我們還不確定這是否是最終版本。

There's some uncertainty about whether this is going to be signed.

至於是否會簽署，還存在一定的不確定性。

So there's still a lot of, you know, question marks.

所以還有很多，你知道的，問號。

But clearly, they're homing in on some kind of a deal.

但很明顯，他們在尋找某種交易。

And what seems to be really interesting about it is that if this version that the BBC has seen and others have seen holds, then there's quite a concession from the Americans.

有趣的是，如果 BBC 和其他人看到的這個版本成立，那麼美國人就會做出相當大的讓步。

Essentially, the original drafts essentially said, we're going to set up a joint fund that will collectively exploit natural resources in Ukraine.

從本質上講，最初的草案主要是說，我們將成立一個聯合基金，共同開發烏克蘭的自然資源。

So oil, gas, minerals, ports, pipelines, the full malarkey, you know, a massive, massive investment fund.

是以，石油、天然氣、礦產、港口、管道，應有盡有，你知道，這是一個龐大的投資基金。

And basically, the profits would be divided half Ukraine, half the United States.

基本上，利潤將一半分給烏克蘭，一半分給美國。

But Ukraine would start that process with a massive overdraft, one side owing the Americans for all the military and financial aid given since February 2022.

但是，烏克蘭在開始這一進程時將會大量透支，一方拖欠美國人自 2022 年 2 月以來提供的所有軍事和財政援助。

That is now gone, according to this latest draft.

根據最新的草案，這種情況已經不復存在。

Instead, it's saying any contribution the Americans make in future to Ukraine, that will count as part of an American investment into it and therefore would have to be paid for by the Ukrainians or anything that comes from this deal.

相反，這意味著美國人今後對烏克蘭的任何捐助，都將算作美國對烏克蘭投資的一部分，是以必須由烏克蘭人或這筆交易產生的任何東西來支付。

So that is, if that is how it ends up, that is quite a gain, quite a win for Zelensky's negotiating team.

是以，如果結果是這樣，那對澤倫斯基的談判團隊來說，就是相當大的收穫，相當大的勝利。

And Katrina, what's the theories in Washington about why that's happened?

卡特里娜，華盛頓有什麼理論來解釋為什麼會發生這種情況？

Both that there's a deal that seems slightly more advantageous to the Ukrainians than the original version.

既有一個似乎比最初版本更有利於烏克蘭人的協議。

And also the fact that we're on the verge of the deal being signed when two months ago the whole thing was kiboshed because of the dramatic scenes in the Oval Office.

還有一個事實是，我們即將簽署協議，而兩個月前，由於橢圓形辦公室裡的戲劇性場面，整件事都被擱置了。

Well, it was described to me by a close advisor of President Trump, Sebastian Gorka, who's a member of the National Security Council in the White House on President Trump's team.

特朗普總統的親密顧問塞巴斯蒂安-高爾卡（Sebastian Gorka）向我描述了這一切，他是特朗普總統團隊中白宮國家安全委員會的成員。

He said that everything changed last week when President Putin, you know, had had that ceasefire over Russia, although that's disputed by the Ukrainians.

他說，上週普京總統在俄羅斯上空實現停火後，一切都變了，儘管烏克蘭人對此提出了爭議。

And then there were several very serious attacks launched.

隨後又發動了幾次非常嚴重的襲擊。

And that's when we saw as well a change in language from President Trump in the last few days, that kind of warming and softening towards Russia that we had seen, that he's sharpened that up again.

就在這時，我們也看到特朗普總統在過去幾天裡的措辭發生了變化，我們曾經看到的那種對俄羅斯的暖意和軟化，他又重新變得尖銳起來。

And he's just kind of come to this realization that President Putin maybe has been playing him a little bit as they see it.

在他們看來，普京總統可能一直在耍他。

And you know, the word being used is watershed.

要知道，現在用的詞是分水嶺。

是以，他們希望完成這筆交易。

But they also are trying to soften their language on Ukraine and harshen it on Russia and get back to what would be a more traditional US foreign policy position.

但他們也在試圖軟化對烏克蘭的措辭，嚴厲對待俄羅斯，回到美國更傳統的外交政策立場上來。

And James, that's interesting because with Trump, you can't just take one thing as the proof of a new direction.

詹姆斯，這很有趣，因為對於特朗普，你不能只把一件事當作新方向的證明。

There has to be a few things to prove that there's a new direction.

必須有一些事情來證明有了新的方向。

And I would argue that the posts on Truth Social we saw in the last week or so where

我認為，在過去一週左右的時間裡，我們在 "真理社交 "上看到的帖子中

Trump sort of came close to condemning Putin, in fact, did condemn Putin for his attacks on civilian areas in Ukraine.

事實上，川普幾乎要譴責普京了，他確實譴責了普京對烏克蘭平民區的襲擊。

Can we add this apparent closeness to a minerals deal as a second thing?

我們是否可以把這種表面上與礦產交易的密切關係作為第二件事加以補充？

Maybe there's a change of direction happening here.

This is this is I mean, I think the minerals deal has always been a slightly different track to the ceasefire negotiations.

我的意思是，我認為礦產交易一直與停火談判略有不同。

So there is a sort of gap between the two.

是以，兩者之間存在某種差距。

I think and this is pure speculation because none of us know what's going on in Donald

我認為這純屬猜測，因為我們都不知道唐納德

But it strikes me that Donald Trump hasn't got many wins.

但我覺得，唐納德-特朗普並沒有取得多少勝利。

他在中東問題上並沒有取得多少勝利。

He had an initial ceasefire, but that's now collapsed.

他曾達成初步停火協議，但現在已經破裂。

He had some hostages released, but not all.

他釋放了一些人質，但不是全部。

And I think that if he did a deal that he could assign a framework deal with the Ukrainians and then he can go to the American people say, you know what, I've got a deal with the

我認為，如果他達成協議，他可以與烏克蘭人達成一個框架協議，然後他可以對美國人民說，你知道嗎，我已經與烏克蘭人達成了協議。

They're going to be paying us, paying us back for the military aid we're giving them.

他們要付錢給我們，償還我們給他們的軍事援助。

And most people, I imagine, will not be on top of all the minutiae of the details.

我想，大多數人都不會對所有的細枝末節瞭如指掌。

So it's possible that could be one bit of motivation that actually has changed minds in the White House.

是以，這有可能是促使白宮改變主意的一個動機。

讓我們先把這件事解決了再說。

You know, we were never going to get the full cash payback for the whole team Biden gave.

要知道，拜登為整個團隊付出的現金回報，我們是永遠也拿不到的。

But going forward, it gives us something to talk about.

但在未來，這也給了我們一些談資。

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美國和烏克蘭即將簽署礦產協議？| 英國廣播公司新聞廣播 (Are the US and Ukraine about to sign a minerals deal? | BBC Newscast)

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resilience