Name: 美烏礦產交易對戰爭意味著什麼？| 英國廣播公司新聞廣播 (What Does the US-Ukraine Minerals Deal Mean For The War? | BBC Newscast)
Uploaded: 2025-05-03T00:12:48.000Z
Duration: 35 min

情態副詞

The US and Ukraine have finally sealed their long-awaited deal on access to Ukraine's natural resources, and it is being interpreted by some as a win for President Zelensky of Ukraine over Donald Trump.

美國和烏克蘭終於就獲取烏克蘭自然資源達成了期待已久的協議，一些人將此解讀為烏克蘭總統澤連斯基戰勝了唐納德-特朗普。

And what does that mean for the rest of the peace process in Ukraine?

這對烏克蘭和平進程的其他部分意味著什麼？

We will discuss all of that on this latest episode of the BBC's daily news podcast, Newscast.

我們將在最新一期的 BBC 每日新聞播客《新聞播報》中討論這一切。

What does it mean for the relationship between the US and Ukraine?

這對美國和烏克蘭之間的關係意味著什麼？

And what does it mean for the wider process of negotiating an end to the fighting after Russia's invasion?

這對俄羅斯入侵後結束戰鬥的更廣泛談判進程意味著什麼？

The person who can tell us, or at least help us work it out, is the BBC's international editor, Jeremy Bowen.

能告訴我們，或者至少能幫我們搞清楚的人是 BBC 的國際編輯傑里米-鮑文（Jeremy Bowen）。

I've not actually had a chance to read the text of this whole deal yet, which is something I usually like to do.

實際上，我還沒來得及閱讀整個交易的文本，而這是我通常喜歡做的事情。

Do you want to just break down the key elements that I'll find there?

你是否想向我介紹一下那裡的關鍵要素？

The whole deal, when you read it, you'll see that it's in rather legalistic language.

讀完之後，你會發現整篇文章的語言都相當法律化。

There's a lot of whereases and things like that in it.

裡面有很多whereases之類的東西。

However, I think main points, certainly as presented by the Ukrainians, I've got a list here, so I'm going to be reading bits of them.

不過，我認為主要觀點，當然是烏克蘭人提出的觀點，我這裡有一份清單，所以我會讀其中的一些片段。

The Ukrainian economy minister who signed, who's also the first deputy prime minister, Ulia Sevrydenko, this is her summary of it.

簽字的烏克蘭經濟部長，同時也是第一副總理烏利亞-塞夫裡登科（Ulia Sevrydenko），這是她的總結。

She said, this is a good deal for Ukraine.

她說，這對烏克蘭來說是一筆好交易。

Full ownership and control will remain with Ukraine.

烏克蘭將保留全部所有權和控制權。

National property, she said, is protected, i.e.

The deal, she made this point, does not mention any debt repayments by Ukraine to the USA, though when I went through it just a few minutes ago, I did notice that there's also a clause in it that says that if the Americans give more, after the deal comes into force, give them more military equipment, then the value of that will be included in the American contribution to what's going on.

她指出，協議中並未提及烏克蘭向美國償還任何債務，不過幾分鐘前我仔細閱讀協議時確實注意到，協議中還有一條規定，如果美國人在協議生效後向烏克蘭提供更多軍事裝備，那麼這些裝備的價值將計入美國對烏克蘭的貢獻。

It's not like it's all going to be coming for free.

There's also the point that she keeps saying, in big capital letters, new licenses, new enterprises.

還有一點，她一直用大寫字母說，新許可證、新企業。

In other words, there's no element of backdating it, because to start with, in the earlier versions of it, and the things Trump was saying, there were suggestions that he might retroactively want to take over the entire Ukrainian nuclear industry.

換句話說，這其中並不存在 "追溯 "的因素，因為首先，在早先的版本中，以及特朗普所說的話中，有人認為他可能會追溯性地想要接管整個烏克蘭的核工業。

They've got a lot of nuclear power stations dating back to the Soviet times.

他們有很多可以追溯到蘇聯時期的核電站。

They are saying that they managed to get a good deal, and I suppose you might ask, is that because Zelensky actually stood up to Trump?

我想你可能會問，這是因為澤倫斯基真的站出來反對特朗普嗎？

He didn't get into a crouch position and do as he was told, perhaps, but I think what it does do, the big absence, from the Ukrainian point of view, is there are still no overt security guarantees, and that's what they wanted in return for some kind of deal like this.

也許，他並沒有蹲在地上聽命行事，但我認為，從烏克蘭的角度來看，這樣做的最大缺失是仍然沒有公開的安全保證，而這正是他們希望通過這樣的交易換取的。

So their hope would be that this actually means that Trump and America are somehow committed to the long haul, to their existence as an independent country.

是以，他們希望這實際上意味著特朗普和美國在某種程度上致力於長遠發展，致力於作為一個獨立國家的存在。

實際上，我認為這是一個沒有實際意義的問題。

Well, because you can imagine that if suddenly they weren't fully independent, or if Russia took over bigger parts of it in some sort of future deal, or maybe if they scored military victories, would the Americans make deals with the Russians about rare earths, many of which actually are in areas which are in the war zone, or even in areas which are now controlled by the Russian military?

因為你可以想象，如果他們突然不完全獨立了，或者如果俄羅斯在未來的某種交易中接管了更大的部分，或者如果他們取得了軍事勝利，美國人會與俄羅斯人就稀土達成交易嗎？

Would the Americans make deals with Moscow about that?

美國人會就此與莫斯科達成協議嗎？

They won't necessarily say, I'm sorry, we had a deal with your government.

他們不一定會說，對不起，我們和你們政府達成了協議。

So I don't really necessarily buy this argument that just by investing, it's almost like a security guarantee.

是以，我並不一定相信這種說法，即只要投資，就幾乎是一種安全保證。

My experience in many wars over many years is that when the balloon goes up, one thing that you always see are multinational companies, including American ones, doing all they can to get their expats out and save ASAP.

多年來，我在多場戰爭中的經驗是，當氣球升起時，你總能看到跨國公司，包括美國公司，竭盡全力讓他們的外籍人員儘快離開並節省開支。

You know, they don't suddenly put down their tools and pick up weapons and become a militia, nothing like that.

你知道，他們不會突然放下工具，拿起武器，變成民兵，不會這樣。

But you said there isn't an explicit security guarantee.

But the fact that America envisages using this fund to pay itself back for military stuff that it sends to Ukraine in future, isn't that an implicit security guarantee?

但事實上，美國打算用這筆基金來償還自己今後向烏克蘭提供的軍事物資，這難道不是一種隱含的安全保證嗎？

That's effectively the White House saying, yeah, we're prepared to keep arming Ukraine, it just it won't be for free.

這實際上是白宮在說，是的，我們準備繼續武裝烏克蘭，只是不會免費。

I mean, they've said if they send more weapons, they haven't guaranteed to send more weapons as part of this.

我的意思是，他們已經說過，如果他們派出更多的武器，他們並沒有保證會派出更多的武器作為其中的一部分。

But certainly what it does, it binds the Americans into Ukraine and its future, and the Trump administration, and their successors, because just developing the enormous infrastructure required to get at this is not going to happen in the next four years.

但可以肯定的是，它將美國人與烏克蘭及其未來、特朗普政府以及他們的繼任者緊密聯繫在一起，因為僅僅發展解決這一問題所需的龐大基礎設施在未來四年內是不可能實現的。

I mean, apart from the fact that war's going on, think how long it takes to dig a coal mine.

我的意思是，除了戰爭正在進行這一事實外，想想挖一個煤礦需要多長時間吧。

I mean, to exploit these rare earths and minerals in the way that they want to, will take an investment of billions of dollars.

我的意思是，要按照他們的意願開採這些稀土和礦產，將需要數十億美元的投資。

And that's another reason, in fact, why the Ukrainians are pleased the Americans are involved, because they haven't got billions of dollars, the Americans have.

事實上，這也是烏克蘭人很高興美國人参與其中的另一個原因，因為他們沒有數十億美元，而美國人有。

And also, it's interesting that we've just had a situation where the US has done a deal, the minerals deal that kind of, okay, you could argue about it, but it's sort of is a pro-Ukrainian thing to do, as opposed to a pro-Russian thing to do.

另外，有趣的是，我們剛剛經歷了美國達成礦產交易的情況，好吧，你可以爭論不休，但這是親烏克蘭的做法，而不是親俄羅斯的做法。

And then it looks like US-Ukrainian relations are improving.

然後，美烏關係看起來正在改善。

But then Trump has to sort of personally subvert all of that by reminding everyone listening to that news channel that he thinks Ukraine is the weaker partner.

但是，特朗普又不得不親自顛覆這一切，提醒每個收聽新聞頻道的人，他認為烏克蘭是較弱的合作伙伴。

So it's sort of two steps towards Ukraine, and then another big step towards Russia.

是以，這算是向烏克蘭邁出了兩步，然後又向俄羅斯邁出了一大步。

And I think one thing that we've learned by now is that the thing that Trump respects is, you know, the big guy with a big wallet, and lots of power.

我認為，我們現在已經瞭解到一件事，那就是特朗普所尊重的是，你知道，擁有大錢包和大權力的大人物。

And that's why I think that even though they may have done this deal, it doesn't mean to say that he does not want, as a priority, to re-establish good relations with Moscow.

是以我認為，即使他們達成了這項協議，也並不意味著他不想優先與莫斯科重建良好關係。

Because if he's in the world of deal making and natural resources, Russia, the biggest country in the world, has got colossal underexploited natural resources.

因為如果他的世界是交易和自然資源的世界，那麼俄羅斯這個世界上最大的國家就擁有巨大的未充分開發的自然資源。

So you can see the dollar signs in his mind when it comes to all of that.

是以，你可以看到他心中的 "美元符號"。

He said that if there was normalization, then sanctions lifted, then they could do deals, they'd have direct flights, there would be all kinds of opportunities for American business.

他說，如果實現正常化，然後取消制裁，那麼他們就可以做交易，就可以有直飛班機，美國企業就會有各種各樣的機會。

He's addressed this in the course of the past couple of months.

在過去的幾個月裡，他已經解決了這個問題。

One thing to remember on the historical point, Adam, is that, you know, America, in the past, has always, as often, I should say, demanded the repayment of war debts.

關於歷史問題，亞當，有一點要記住，你知道，美國在過去總是要求償還戰爭債務，我應該說是經常要求償還戰爭債務。

Britain paid off its last installment of its Second World War debts to both the United States and Canada in 2006.

2006 年，英國償還了第二次世界大戰期間欠美國和加拿大的最後一筆債務。

They keep accounts and they want their money back.

And just in terms of the big Ukraine-Russia picture, or checklist, as it were, this is a tick for the resources deal.

就烏克蘭與俄羅斯的大局而言，或者說就清單而言，這是資源交易的一個"√"。

But the temporary 30-day ceasefire that Ukraine and the US say they want, and the permanent end to the fighting, which, well, kind of a big chunk of the world wants, both those boxes are still very much unticked.

但是，烏克蘭和美國所說的為期 30 天的臨時停火，以及世界上很大一部分人所希望的永久結束戰鬥，這兩項都還沒有實現。

And I think that both, if you look at the way that Zelensky and Putin have been playing it, both, I think, want to prolong this process and then make sure, engineer things, so that the other side gets blamed if it all falls apart and Trump decides to walk away from trying to make peace here because he's got other things on his plate.

我認為，如果你看看澤連斯基和普京一直在玩的把戲，我認為他們都想延長這一進程，然後確保、策劃一些事情，這樣，如果一切破裂，特朗普決定放棄在這裡實現和平，因為他還有其他事情要處理，那麼另一方就會受到指責。

So that's the game that they've been playing.

You know, one thing also that's interesting, actually, is that they've got the big Second World War commemorations coming up in Moscow, I think, on the 9th of May.

實際上，有一件事也很有趣，那就是他們即將在莫斯科舉行盛大的第二次世界大戰紀念活動，我想是在 5 月 9 日。

Putin's invited all kinds of people like that.

普京邀請了各種各樣這樣的人。

英國廣播公司（BBC）的 "監測 "欄目正在進行一場辯論。

I've been doing some good stuff on this, following it.

我在這方面做了一些很好的工作，一直在關注它。

There is a debate there about whether or not Ukraine should try and attack that parade in Moscow at the time.

關於烏克蘭是否應該試圖攻擊當時在莫斯科舉行的閱兵式，人們還在爭論不休。

And there are people in the Ukrainian media saying, legitimate target, why not?

烏克蘭媒體上有人說，合法目標，為什麼不呢？

And President Putin has suggested a three-day ceasefire around that time.

普京總統建議在此前後停火三天。

Because, you know, what in Ukraine they're saying is that he'll want to do is bring all the air defences they've got all around Moscow to make sure that they can't get drones through.

因為，你知道，在烏克蘭，他們說的是，他要做的是把莫斯科周圍的所有防空設施都集中起來，確保無人機無法通過。

So there is a bit of a debate going on in Ukraine about whether or not they accept that particular proposal and whether they try and exploit.

是以，烏克蘭國內就是否接受這一提議以及是否試圖利用這一提議展開了爭論。

I don't think they will, frankly, because it would be seen as such an act of aggression.

坦率地說，我不認為他們會這樣做，因為這會被視為一種侵略行為。

Oh, so Putin's offer of a three-day ceasefire around about the Victory Day celebrations, as they call it in Russia, is actually for a ceasefire over the skies of Moscow, really, ultimately, as opposed to a ceasefire in Eastern and Southern Ukraine, really.

是以，普京提出在俄羅斯所謂的勝利日慶祝活動前後停火三天，實際上是為了在莫斯科上空停火，真的，最終是為了在烏克蘭東部和南部停火，真的。

This is what is being, this is what the Chatterati in Ukraine are saying at the moment.

這就是現在的情況，這就是烏克蘭的喋喋不休者們此刻所說的話。

Now, on a totally different note, we're doing another episode this Bank Holiday weekend of Old Newscast, where we go back to a big event from the recent past.

現在，換個話題，在這個銀行假日週末，我們將播出另一集 "老新聞播報"，回顧不久前發生的一件大事。

And this weekend is the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989.

本週末是 1989 年柏林牆倒塌紀念日。

What were you doing as a strip of a lad that day?

那天你作為一個脫衣舞娘在做什麼？

Well, I was a young BBC reporter and I wasn't on the story because I was working in Washington.

我當時是英國廣播公司的一名年輕記者，因為在華盛頓工作，所以沒有參與報道。

I still remember my absolute, I mean, having grown up in the Cold War, I was 29 in 1989.

我仍然記得我的絕對，我是說，我是在冷戰中長大的，1989 年我 29 歲。

Having grown up and having as a, you know, when I was a BBC trainee journalist, they took us to Berlin.

當我還是英國廣播公司的實習記者時，他們帶我們去了柏林。

And we went into what was West Berlin, the West Side, and we traveled over to through Checkpoint Charlie, to what was an absolutely different world.

我們進入西柏林西區，通過查理檢查站，來到一個完全不同的世界。

Different, the city looked different, you could still in the ATC damage from the Second World War.

城市面貌煥然一新，你仍然可以看到空管系統在第二次世界大戰中遭受的破壞。

We went into West Berlin on the on the British military train that they ran from Hanover every day to ensure under the four power agreement that they that they had, they kept open the rail links into and all the prices on that train were set at I think 1946 levels.

我們乘坐英國每天從漢諾威開來的軍用列車進入西柏林，以確保根據他們簽訂的四國協議，保持通往西柏林的鐵路線暢通。

So you could get lunch on the same kind of menu, probably half a grapefruit and brown Winsor soup or something for the equivalent of whatever it would have cost in a brandy and soda for whatever it would have cost in the late 1940s, all part of the status quo for Berlin.

是以，你可以在同樣的菜單上吃到午餐，可能是半個柚子和棕色的南聯湯什麼的，價格相當於 20 世紀 40 年代末白蘭地和蘇打水的價格，這都是柏林現狀的一部分。

But in the follow on from that, I spent quite a lot of time after that and things like the Romanian Revolution, the collapse of the Soviet Union.

但在那之後，我又花了很多時間去研究羅馬尼亞革命、蘇聯解體等事件。