He is a trial lawyer, so he knows a thing or two about arguing.

他是一名出庭律師，所以他對辯論有一定的瞭解。

Jefferson Fisher took his skills from the courtroom to social media where he gives practical advice on how to handle difficult conversations.

傑斐遜-費舍爾將自己的技能從法庭帶到了社交媒體，他就如何處理棘手的對話提出了實用的建議。

And he's racked up 10 million followers along the way.

一路走來，他已經積累了 1000 萬粉絲。

His new book, The Next Conversation, argue less, talk more, breaks down how to communicate more effectively and navigate complex conversations with confidence.

他的新書《下一次對話》（The Next Conversation, argue less, talk more）闡述瞭如何更有效地溝通，如何自信地駕馭複雜的對話。

Jefferson Fisher joins us now.

傑弗遜-費舍爾現在加入我們。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感謝你們的到來。

Thank you for having me.

謝謝你們邀請我。

I'm honored to be here.

我很榮幸能來到這裡。

We're honored.

我們深感榮幸。

So, a lot of times these conversations start out, you know, by someone approaching their significant other with an issue.

所以，很多時候，這些對話一開始，你知道，都是由某人帶著問題去找他們的另一半開始的。

And then the other person says, well, you do that too or well, you know, I did that last time.

然後對方說，好吧，你也是這麼做的，或者好吧，你知道，我上次也是這麼做的。

Right.

對

You say, don't make it about you.

你說，別把話題扯到你自己身上。

Why?

為什麼？

So what I teach is you want to have something to learn rather than something to prove.

是以，我的教學理念是，你要有東西可學，而不是有東西可證明。

If I'm always coming at you with my finger pointed, you're naturally going to get defensive.

如果我總是用手指著你，你自然會防備。

But if I can come at it with something to learn as in, help me understand or I'm curious how, it's it's going to make it a whole lot better and then they're not going to get defensive and your conversation is going to go better.

但是，如果我能帶著學習的目的來，比如幫助我理解，或者我很好奇怎麼做，那就會好很多，然後他們就不會防備，你們的對話也會進行得更好。

And we should use those words.

我們應該使用這些詞語。

Honey, I'm curious about why you do it this way.

親愛的，我很好奇你為什麼要這樣做。

Like, help me understand, I'm curious how you use that actual terminology.

請幫我理解一下，我很好奇你是如何使用這個術語的。

Yeah, instead of beginning your question with why?

是啊，與其以 "為什麼？

Like, why is very accusatory.

比如，"為什麼 "就帶有很強的指責意味。

Oh.

哦。

If you say why is like, why'd you do it that way?

如果你說 "為什麼"，你為什麼要那樣做？

Like, because I wanted to, that's why.

就像，因為我想，這就是原因。

Yeah.

是啊

But if you ask how or where or when, they're not going to get nearly as offensive.

但如果你問怎麼做、在哪裡做、什麼時候做，他們就不會那麼反感了。

Because it doesn't sound accusatory as if they did something wrong.

因為這聽起來不像是在指責他們做錯了什麼。

Even if you are being accusatory and you think they're wrong, you shouldn't seek to win the argument is another principle or theme here in the book.

即使你是在指責，你認為他們錯了，你也不應該試圖贏得爭論，這是本書的另一個原則或主題。

Why, what's wrong with winning an argument?

為什麼，贏得爭論有什麼不好？

Good question.

問得好。

Yeah.

是啊

Yeah, exactly.

是啊，沒錯。

I saw you.

我看見你了

Nice.

不錯。

Uh, when you set out to win an argument, you often lose the relationship.

當你想贏得爭論時，往往會失去關係。

All you've won is their contempt.

你贏得的只是他們的蔑視。

You've won to be the first to apologize, most likely.

你很可能贏得了第一個道歉的機會。

Yeah.

是啊

Uh, instead you want to see arguments as something to unravel, you take the loose ends and you try and find the knot.

呃，相反，你想把爭論看成是可以解開的東西，你把鬆散的部分拿出來，試著找到結。

Even when you can ask what's missing?

即使你可以問還缺什麼？

What am I missing?

我錯過了什麼？

That's going to go a whole lot better than trying to prove that they've done something wrong.

這比試圖證明他們做錯了什麼要好得多。

Okay, you also give us another secret to good communication, which is the gift of pause.

好吧，你還告訴了我們另一個良好溝通的祕訣，那就是停頓的天賦。

Yes.

是的。

Anytime somebody says something ugly, rude, belittling, and you can just give it five to seven seconds of nothing and just let it hang and let their words fall.

任何時候，如果有人說了難聽、粗魯、輕視的話，你只需給他五到七秒鐘的時間，讓他掛在嘴邊，讓他的話落下。

You're the one who seems much more in control rather than going, that's not true, that's not, what about you?

你是那個看起來更能控制自己而不是去的人，這不是真的，這不是真的，那你呢？

Whenever you raise to that level, you're the one who looks more emotionally reactive.

每當你提高到這個水準，你就是那個看起來更容易情緒化的人。

Instead, you give it that pause, you're the one who seems and stays in control.

相反，你讓它停頓下來，你就是那個看似掌控一切的人。

And then there are they're probably apologizing before anyone says anything else.

然後，他們可能會在別人說什麼之前道歉。

Exactly.

沒錯。

If you can give it that pause, a lot of the times people can hear their words back, it echoes, and so what they'll do is go, I didn't mean that or I'm sorry or they'll try and twist their words back, they take it back.

如果你能讓它暫停一下，很多時候人們就能聽到他們的迴音，於是他們就會說，我不是那個意思，或者我很抱歉，或者他們會試圖把他們的話扭曲回去，他們會把它收回來。

And then if you really want to press it after the pause, you repeat the words back to them or I oh no, I love this part, I'm going to need you to tell me that again.

然後，如果你真的想在停頓後按下按鈕，你就把這些話重複一遍給他們聽，或者我哦不，我喜歡這部分，我需要你再告訴我一遍。

Yes, absolutely.

是的，當然。

You got it.

你說對了。

Oh.

哦。

Yes, that's perfect.

是的，太完美了。

So anytime somebody says something rude, you give that silence and you ask the question that get them to repeat it.

是以，無論何時有人說了不禮貌的話，你都要保持沉默，然後提出問題，讓他們重複一遍。

So you could say, I need you to say that again or I didn't catch that, can you repeat it for me?

所以你可以說，我需要你再說一遍，或者我沒聽清，你能重複一遍嗎？

Like, I must have not heard you correctly, you wouldn't possibly be that rude to me.

比如，我一定是沒聽清楚，你不可能對我這麼無禮。

Exactly.

沒錯。

You got it.

你說對了。

And then at that point, all the fun's taken out of it, the the that original hit, that flash that they wanted, they're not going to get and now it's just not going to be that fun.

到了那個時候，所有的樂趣都被剝奪了，他們想要的那種原始的衝擊力和快感也得不到了，現在也就沒那麼好玩了。

Tail between their legs.

夾著尾巴做人

Okay, this is obviously a very divisive political time.

好吧，這顯然是一個非常分裂的政治時期。

How can people have conversations where they disagree without being disgruntled?

人們如何才能在意見不一致的情況下進行對話而不產生不滿？

Yeah, so one uh technique anybody can use while watching this is instead of saying I disagree, switch it to I see things differently.

是的，所以任何人在觀看時都可以使用一個技巧，那就是不要說 "我不同意"，而是換成 "我有不同的看法"。

When you say things from a matter of perspective, people don't turn it as you're doing something wrong, what I'm saying is where I'm sitting, I see something different.

當你從一個角度說話時，人們不會認為你做錯了什麼，我想說的是，在我所坐的位置，我看到了不同的東西。

So instead of I disagree, it's I see something differently or I take another approach or I tend to lean the opposite.

是以，與其說我不同意，不如說我看到了不同的東西，或者我採取了另一種方法，或者我傾向於相反的觀點。

What you're doing is putting it in terms of a matter of perspective rather than saying what you believe is inaccurate.

你所做的是把它放在一個視角問題上，而不是說你所認為的是不準確的。

Exactly, you're giving them space for believing what they believe, which is, you know, also possible.

沒錯，你給了他們空間去相信他們所相信的，你知道，這也是可能的。

Yeah.

是啊

Yeah, and then there's humility in it and that like none of us really know with any kind of certainty what's happening or where this world is going, right?

是啊，還有謙遜，就像我們沒有人真的知道發生了什麼，或者這個世界將走向何方，對嗎？

Right.

對

We're all trying to figure it out in the dark, that's the truth.

我們都在黑暗中摸索，這就是事實。

Um, but you know, in your day job as a personal injury lawyer, you've got to make hard cases and win arguments.

嗯，但你知道，在你的日常工作中 作為一個人身傷害律師，你必須做出艱難的案件 並贏得爭論。

None of this like, uh, who wants to win?

誰想贏？

Your client wants to win.

你的客戶想贏。

Of course.

當然。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊，是啊。

So it's a little bit different in law because you don't get to choose your facts and you don't get to choose the law.

是以，法律上的情況有些不同，因為你無法選擇事實，也無法選擇法律。

I I have to play the the the cards that have been dealt to me.

我必須打好手中的牌。

So what the difference is how you persuade and use the power of your words to influence, particularly to a jury of 12 people or a judge and so it's all about the power of what you say next.

是以，區別就在於你如何說服別人，如何利用你的語言的力量去影響別人，尤其是對一個由 12 人組成的陪審團或法官，所以這一切都與你接下來所說的話的力量有關。

You're a married guy, two kids, you think your wife's going to read that and use any of the tools against you?

你是個已婚男人，有兩個孩子，你認為你的妻子會讀到這篇文章，並用這些工具來對付你嗎？

Absolutely not.

絕對不行。

I mean she's yeah, she she knows it like the back of her hand.

我是說，她是的，她對這一切瞭如指掌。

Is she here?

她在嗎？

Yes, the kids are here.

是的，孩子們來了。

Everybody's here.

大家都來了

Hey.

嘿。

Hey.

嘿。

Can we see her?

我們能看到她嗎？

Can you spin around on the jib there to see the wife by the green room?

你能在搖臂上轉一圈，看看綠色房間旁邊的妻子嗎？

I don't know if we can right now.

我不知道我們現在能否做到。

There they are, look at that beautiful family.

他們來了，看看這個美麗的家庭。

Hi.

你好。

Oh, Jefferson Fisher, thank you so much for being here.

哦，傑弗遜-費舍爾，非常感謝你能來這裡。

The next conversation.

下一次對話

Argue less and talk more is available now.

少爭論，多交流》現已上市。