It's very easy when you have full control and you can cram down the brand or the culture or whatever the area is.

當你完全掌握了控制權，你就可以把品牌、文化或任何領域的東西強加給別人，這非常容易。

But what if there is a partial position?

但如果有部分位置呢？

Much more complex, and we're certainly grateful to have this esteemed panel help us think through some of the really current issues and best practice in structuring joint ventures and minority investments, and pleased to have George Casey leading this discussion.

我們很高興能請到這個受人尊敬的專家小組，幫助我們思考當前在構建合資企業和少數股權投資方面的一些真正問題和最佳實踐，也很高興喬治-凱西（George Casey）能主持這次討論。

So take it away, George.

那就拿走吧，喬治。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Good afternoon.

下午好。

We are very happy to be here.

我們很高興來到這裡。

Maybe a quick introduction.

簡單介紹一下吧。

So we have a panel that actually represents a number of different industries, right?

是以，我們的小組實際上代表了許多不同的行業，對嗎？

So hopefully we'll draw on experiences in different industries on joint ventures and minority investments.

是以，希望我們能借鏡不同行業在合資企業和少數股權投資方面的經驗。

Andrew Gratz is from Lyondell Bissell, based in Houston, with a lot of experience in industrials, chemicals specifically, M&A and joint ventures in particular.

安德魯-格拉茨（Andrew Gratz）來自利安德畢盛公司（Lyondell Bissell），總部位於休斯頓，在工業、化工、併購、合資企業等領域擁有豐富經驗。

Darren Besson is based here in San Francisco, the general counsel of CBS Interactive.

達倫-貝松（Darren Besson）常駐舊金山，是哥倫比亞廣播公司互動部的總法律顧問。

So coming from the media, but as he would say, there is no true media without technology company.

他來自媒體，但正如他所說，沒有技術公司就沒有真正的媒體。

So he will draw on his experience in that industry.

是以，他將利用自己在該行業的經驗。

And Jako Sulander is head of legal M&A at Nokia, currently based in New York until two years ago was based in Espoo, Finland.

Jako Sulander 是諾基亞併購法律部負責人，目前在紐約工作，兩年前還在芬蘭埃斯波工作。

So bringing his experience on the technology side and also internationally.

是以，他不僅帶來了技術方面的經驗，還帶來了國際經驗。

So with that, maybe we'll quickly go into, in 50 minutes, talk about joint ventures.

是以，也許我們會在 50 分鐘內快速進入關於合資企業的話題。

We can spend an entire day or a week talking about joint ventures.

我們可以花一整天或一週的時間來討論合資企業。

Maybe first, the four big themes that we were thinking we will cover, but we are happy to answer questions outside of those themes as well.

也許首先是我們要討論的四大主題，但我們也很樂意回答這些主題之外的問題。

We'll start with the big picture, right?

我們先從大處著眼，對吧？

There is a lot of discussion as to what joint venture is.

關於什麼是合資企業，大家議論紛紛。

And a lot of people put a lot of different things into what actually joint venture or minority investment is.

很多人對合資企業或少數股權投資的定義各不相同。

Because at the end of the day, it's actually one of the most, one of the broadest terms in M&A that probably exists.

因為歸根結底，這實際上是併購中最寬泛的術語之一。

Then we'll talk about some of the specifics, like governance, right?

然後我們再談一些具體細節，比如治理，對嗎？

How do you structure governance?

如何構建治理結構？

We'll talk about relationship between shareholders and the joint venture.

我們將討論股東與合資企業之間的關係。

And then we'll talk about exits, termination.

然後我們再談談退出和終止。

We'll try to pack it all within the 50 minutes that we have.

我們會盡量在 50 分鐘內完成。

So maybe starting with the first kind of big theme and the big picture, what are joint ventures and why do people do them?

那麼，從第一個大主題和大畫面開始，什麼是合資企業，人們為什麼要做合資企業？

And Andy, if I can ask you, sort of what's the strategic imperative?

安迪，如果我能問你，戰略需要是什麼？

That question, I think, is key for each company.

我認為，這個問題對每家公司來說都很關鍵。

What is the strategic imperative?

戰略要務是什麼？

Why do it in the first place?

為什麼要這樣做？

There are a few standard reasons why you do a joint venture.

合資企業有幾個標準原因。

Maybe there are, you want access to sort of resources or sort of markets you otherwise wouldn't have access to.

也許，你想獲得一些資源或市場，否則你就無法進入。

You limited up front investment, risk mitigation, to sort of dip your toes in the waters for whatever reason.

不管出於什麼原因，你的前期投資和風險緩解都是有限的。

And you're not fully ready financially, operationally, whatever, to go full throttle into a greenfield investment.

而且你在財務、營運等方面還沒有做好充分準備，不能全速投入全新的投資項目。

But the key for the first starting point is to figure out the why.

但第一個起點的關鍵是要弄清楚為什麼。

Because until you know the why, you can't effectively develop the how.

因為在瞭解原因之前，你無法有效地制定方法。

And so throughout this hour, we're gonna talk about the different ways joint ventures can be developed, whether it's simple collaboration, forming a new entity.

是以，在這一小時裡，我們將討論發展合資企業的不同方式，無論是簡單的合作，還是組建新的實體。

There are a variety of reasons, ways to form a joint venture.

組建合資企業的原因和方式多種多樣。

But before you get to that point, and before you look at all the levers you can push and pull to get to the joint venture, you gotta figure out why.

但是，在達到這一點之前，在研究所有可以推動和拉動合資企業的槓桿之前，你必須弄清楚為什麼。

And so those are a few of the reasons to proceed with a JV, if it makes sense, to advance your strategy.

是以，如果合資企業對推進戰略有意義的話，這些就是繼續合資的幾個理由。

And would you consider, for an industrial company like Landell Bissell Chemicals Company, would you pursue, would the company pursue joint venture more as a way to get into new market, get into new technologies?

對於像蘭德爾-比塞爾化學公司這樣的工業公司，你是否會考慮，公司是否會更多地將合資企業作為進入新市場、新技術的一種方式？

Develop your business in some parts of the world that you're less familiar with?

在您不太熟悉的地區發展業務？

What is the question to the why answer for Landell Bissell?

為什麼回答蘭德爾-比塞爾的問題？

Yes.

是的。

All of the above.

以上皆是。

We, as a company, want to look at different markets.

作為一家公司，我們希望著眼於不同的市場。

And for regulatory reasons, or maybe we just have never really operated in those countries in the past.

出於監管方面的原因，也可能是我們過去從未在這些國家開展過業務。

We want to partner familiar with those markets.

我們希望成為熟悉這些市場的合作伙伴。

Maybe a potential joint venture partner can, has a plant, or can provide certain feedstocks that we can use to develop our products.

也許潛在的合資夥伴可以，擁有一家工廠，或者可以提供某些原料，讓我們用來開發我們的產品。

Maybe we're just looking for certain channels to market that we are, that are not very developed, or we don't have a certain experience with.

也許我們只是在尋找某些市場管道，但這些管道並不發達，或者我們沒有一定的經驗。

And sometimes we're just looking for IP.

有時，我們只是在尋找知識產權。

In fact, historically, we've been on the other side of that.

事實上，從歷史上看，我們一直站在這一邊。

Companies will come to us for our intellectual property, and we've formed joint ventures with them.

公司會為了我們的知識產權來找我們，我們已經與他們成立了合資企業。

Here, we'll license you our IP, and then whatever is produced from that intellectual property, we will share together via a joint venture.

在這裡，我們將授權給你我們的知識產權，然後無論該知識產權產生了什麼，我們都將通過合資企業共同分享。

So all the reasons you just mentioned, George, we are actively looking at, either in the past or going forward.

是以，你剛才提到的所有原因，喬治，我們都在積極研究，無論是過去還是未來。

Thank you, and in kind of media slash media technology, joint ventures versus minority investments, how would you look?

謝謝，在媒體技術、合資企業和少數股權投資方面，您是如何看待的？

Why would CBS Interactive look at joint ventures, minority investments?

為什麼 CBS Interactive 會考慮合資企業和少數股權投資？

What are you trying to achieve?

您想實現什麼目標？

And again, similar to what Andy was saying, I'm now in a business that there's seven companies within half a mile of here who are trying to put me out of business tomorrow.

同樣，與安迪所說的類似，我現在所從事的業務，在半英里範圍內就有七家公司想讓我明天就倒閉。

When you're in media, I think since I've been there for interactive for eight years, TV's been reinvented six times.

當你從事媒體工作時，我想自從我在互動媒體工作八年以來，電視已經被重塑了六次。

Thankfully, none of them have truly reinvented it yet, and I still have a job.

值得慶幸的是，他們都還沒有真正重塑它，而我還有一份工作。

But there's new forms of distribution, there's new forms of content, there's new devices you can view it on.

但現在有了新的傳播方式，有了新的內容形式，有了新的觀看設備。

And we have to try to figure all of that out at the exact same time.

我們必須同時想辦法解決所有這些問題。

TV went from an industry that didn't change for 70 years.

電視業從一個 70 年不曾改變的行業發展到今天。

Effectively, it might have gotten into color and the TV's got bigger, but the form of content and the time slots that was in it didn't change, and the way it was monetized didn't change.

實際上，電視可能變成了彩色的，電視機也變大了，但內容的形式和時段沒有變，盈利的方式也沒有變。

And that's over, and we have to figure that out.

這一切都結束了，我們必須想辦法解決。

Makes for, again, an exciting gig as a lawyer and a corporate development person, but it also makes it that somebody's trying to put you out of business tomorrow.

作為一名律師和企業發展人員，這也是一個令人興奮的工作，但同時也會讓人覺得明天就會有人想讓你倒閉。

So we use it for all of the things, particularly of being a strong minority investor in something, in a brand new technology that we are not an R&D company.

是以，我們用它來做所有的事情，尤其是在我們不是研發公司的全新技術領域，作為一個強有力的少數股權投資者。

We do a lot of R&D, but there are some things you can't try to figure everything out on your own.

我們做了大量的研發工作，但有些事情不能完全靠自己去解決。

So we will joint venture with people on different ways of distributing content, as in getting it from when it's being made to the device.

是以，我們將與人們合資開發不同的內容分發方式，比如從內容製作到設備上的分發。

We'll partner with people on new forms of content, should there be six minute episodes of things.

我們將與人們合作製作新形式的內容，比如六分鐘一集的內容。

And when you have different forms of distribution like we do now, and not just TV, but all access and streaming and OTT and DTC, and I can give you 32 other anagrams, that you have to try these things and try to figure out where your company is going.

當你像現在這樣擁有不同的分銷形式時，不僅僅是電視，還有所有的接入、流媒體、OTT 和 DTC，我還可以給你 32 個其他的變位詞，你必須嘗試這些東西，並努力找出公司的發展方向。

And joint ventures or minority investments are a great way to do that without being over committed, and also without necessarily having to put your brand name when they're talking about before on something right away, because most of them are going to fail.

合資企業或少數股權投資是一種很好的方式，既不會過度投入，也不一定要在他們談論某件事情之前就把你的品牌名稱寫上去，因為大多數合資企業或少數股權投資都會失敗。

We live in a world where a lot of these new inventions, some will take, most will not, but you've got to try and figure that out and be one step ahead of people.

我們生活在這樣一個世界裡，許多新發明，有些會成功，大多數不會，但你必須試著弄清楚這一點，並領先人們一步。

And as much as JVs, minority investments are extremely difficult and complicated and dangerous, because they do fail, they are a great way to experiment and try new things.

儘管合資企業和少數股權投資極其困難、複雜和危險，但由於它們確實會失敗，是以它們是進行實驗和嘗試新事物的好方法。

Yeah, thank you, thank you, Dan.

是啊，謝謝你，謝謝你，丹。

Now, when we talk about joint ventures, right, people often mean a physical transfer of assets, creation of a new legal structure, and that's how people often talk about joint ventures.

現在，當我們談論合資企業時，人們通常指的是資產的實際轉移，創建一個新的法律結構，這就是人們通常談論合資企業的方式。

Now, looking at kind of broader term, right, joint venture may mean none of the legal structures, not transfer of assets, but partnership, right?

現在，從更廣義的角度來看，合資企業可能意味著沒有任何法律結構，不是資產轉讓，而是合夥關係，對嗎？

In this part of the world, partnerships is actually one of those forms of developing your business that's quite popular.

在這個世界上，合夥經營實際上是一種相當流行的業務發展形式。

Jaco, do you want to talk about virtual joint ventures, so to say, when you actually, you are not co-owning, you don't have an equity interest in a particular legal set of assets in legal entities and legal group, but you are effectively cooperating through contractual arrangements.

傑科，你是否想談談虛擬合資企業，也就是說，當你們實際上並不共同擁有，你們在法律實體和法律團體的特定法律資產中沒有股權，但你們通過合同安排進行有效合作。

Yeah, sure.

是的，當然。

I think one of the things that people too easily assume, and when they talk about joint ventures, is exactly that thing.

我認為，當人們談到合資企業時，很容易想到的一點正是這一點。

That you say, well, joint venture means this.

你說，好吧，合資企業就是這個意思。

We need to set up a new structure.

我們需要建立一個新的結構。

We have a standalone entity structure, and we're going to run the business through it.

我們有一個獨立的實體結構，我們將通過它來經營業務。

I think it's super important to stop at that point and actually break it down into pieces and figure out.

我認為，在這一點上停下來，把它分解成一個個小塊，然後想辦法解決，是非常重要的。

Well, a couple of the things that you want to look at is, well, what's the balance sheet going to look like?

那麼，你要看的幾件事是，資產負債表會是什麼樣子？

Is this actually going to be a standalone entity, or is it going to be contracting things from the parents, if you have a 50-50 joint venture, for example?

這實際上會是一個獨立的實體，還是會從母公司那裡承包一些東西，比如說，如果你們有一個 50-50 的合資企業？

What's the ultimate end game for it?

它的最終目的是什麼？

Is it a situation where it is a totally separate business?

是完全獨立的業務嗎？

What happens if things go wrong?

如果出了問題怎麼辦？

What ultimately is the goal?

最終目標是什麼？

Are you going to plan to IPO it, or are you going to plan to sell it?

您是打算首次公開募股，還是打算出售？

Are you going to just plan to kind of run it as it is and figure out through some exit mechanism what happens to it?

你是否打算就這樣運行下去，然後通過某種退出機制來解決它的問題？

Or does it have a more specific purpose for entering into the new markets, maybe it's a collaboration on a new product or something like that, where I've actually found that it is in most cases easier and simpler and far more appropriate to enter into, let's say, reseller agreements, joint development agreements, IP licenses and such, rather than create a particularly complicated structure with its own sort of tax issues and IT systems and what have you.

我發現，在大多數情況下，簽訂轉售協議、聯合開發協議、知識產權許可等協議要容易得多、簡單得多、合適得多。

So, I would just say that you can collaborate in so many different ways that it would always be important not to go too far into thinking when you hear about, okay, we should do a joint venture with this and this company, that this is the form of it, the corporate form is the right form for it, but just try and break it into pieces and see how the business model works and whether a, let's say, you're going into a new market with your customer, you want to customize some products, maybe for that market, but you're probably only going to sell those products.

是以，我想說的是，合作的方式多種多樣，當你聽到 "好吧，我們應該與這家公司成立合資企業 "時，千萬不要過多地去想，這就是合資企業的形式，公司的形式就是最合適的形式，而是要試著把合資企業拆抽成幾塊，看看商業模式是如何運作的，比方說，你要與你的客戶一起進入一個新的市場，你想定製一些產品，也許是為了這個市場，但你可能只打算銷售這些產品。

And maybe you, as the industrial company that is going into that market, is providing most of the technology.

而你，作為進軍該市場的工業公司，也許正在提供大部分技術。

There isn't necessarily any need to do anything other than a joint development R&D agreement, reseller, some licenses going back and forth, and then you don't have to hire any additional headcount or anything like that.

除了聯合開發研發協議、經銷商、一些來回的許可證之外，並不一定需要做其他任何事情，然後你就不需要僱傭額外的員工或類似的事情了。

And you get on with life and you don't have a structure that you have to, at some point, wind down.

你可以繼續生活，不會有必須在某一時刻結束的結構。

And that emphasizes the important question that you guys all mentioned, that at the outset, when the business teams start talking about a joint venture, sitting down and saying why we are doing it, and is there an easier, more straightforward way to achieve the business objective as compared to really creating a lot of work and spending a lot of money on executing something that's much more voluminous and much heavier.

這就強調了你們都提到的一個重要問題，即從一開始，當業務團隊開始討論合資企業時，就應該坐下來談談我們為什麼要這樣做，有沒有一種更簡單、更直接的方法來實現業務目標，而不是真的去做大量的工作，花大量的錢去做一些更繁瑣、更沉重的事情。

Yeah, we've had these multiple times where we've converted structures that we're going into the sort of corporate joint venture routes into contractual, if you want to call them virtual joint ventures, but contractual arrangements.

是的，我們曾多次將企業合資路線的結構轉換為合同安排，如果你想稱之為虛擬合資企業，也可以稱之為合同安排。

Usually also easier than to wind down if they don't work out, rather than having some legal entity float around with its own headcount.

如果不成功，通常也比清盤更容易，而不是讓某個法人實體帶著自己的人數四處飄蕩。

Right, right.

對，對

Joint venture is kind of an abused term in that people, everybody thinks they know what it is.

合資企業是一個被濫用的術語，每個人都認為自己知道它是什麼。

And it's really anything you want it to be.

你想讓它變成什麼樣子，它就會變成什麼樣子。

It's truly anything.

真是無所不能。

And it's kind of when people say, it's in the cloud.

人們常說，這是在雲端。

The cloud can mean 700 different things to every different person in this room.

對於在座的每個人來說，雲的含義可能有 700 種之多。

And so could a joint venture.

合資企業也可以。

So it's, as Andy was saying, it's truly understanding what are you really trying to accomplish, and then you get to invent the structure or contracts or whatever it is to fit that.

是以，正如安迪所說，要真正理解你真正想要實現的目標，然後你才能發明出適合這個目標的結構、合同或其他東西。

But it's like everybody thinks, as soon as you say joint venture, everybody thinks they're all talking about the same thing.

但就像每個人都認為，只要你一說合資企業，每個人都認為他們說的是同一件事。

And usually everybody's talking about something completely different.

通常，每個人都在談論完全不同的事情。

About something completely different.

關於完全不同的事情。

Yeah, and that one thing that I found helpful is actually to really focus on what are the assets of it going to be.

是的，我發現有一件事很有幫助，那就是真正關注它的資產是什麼。

And if you kind of struggle to figure out if it actually will have any of its own assets, then it probably isn't the right structure.

如果你很難確定它是否真的擁有自己的資產，那麼它可能就不是一個合適的結構。

If you're interested in additional information on innovation in M&A, I encourage you to check out the Transaction Advisors Institute, which is a robust source for knowledge on M&A best practice.

如果您對有關併購創新的更多資訊感興趣，我建議您訪問交易顧問協會，它是併購最佳實踐知識的強大來源。

We host a series of M&A conferences, run an elite M&A academy, offer M&A master classes, conduct M&A research, organize the M&A Leadership Council, and publish a prestigious M&A journal.

我們舉辦一系列併購會議，開辦精英併購學院，開設併購大師班，開展併購研究，組織併購上司委員會，並出版著名的併購期刊。

Members of the Transaction Advisors Institute include corporate executives, board members, and private equity investors that are interested in understanding the critical issues impacting transaction planning, structuring, and execution.

交易顧問協會的成員包括企業高管、董事會成員和私募股權投資者，他們都有興趣瞭解影響交易規劃、架構和執行的關鍵問題。

I encourage you to get more involved in the institute.

我鼓勵你們更多地參與研究所的工作。

So switching to sort of our next topic, right?

那麼，轉到我們的下一個話題，對嗎？

One of the biggest differences between joint ventures and other M&A transactions, and William mentioned some of it at the outset, is that in an M&A transaction, typically when you buy or sell something, okay, you're closed and everybody goes home.

合資企業與其他併購交易的最大區別之一是，在併購交易中，一般來說，當你買進或賣出某樣東西后，好了，你就收手了，大家都回家了。

Somebody goes with assets, somebody goes with money, and you're done.

有人帶著資產走，有人帶著錢走，你就完了。

Joint venture, in a way, you get to close and you get the deal done, quote unquote, but then you need to live together for the foreseeable future.

合資企業，在某種程度上，你可以完成交易，但在可預見的未來，你需要生活在一起。

Hopefully for the foreseeable future, because then it at least means that the joint venture is successful.

希望在可預見的未來，因為這至少意味著合資企業是成功的。

So governance, right?

那麼治理，對嗎？

So one of the key elements of what people negotiate when they set up joint ventures is, okay, how we're going to live together, right?

是以，人們在建立合資企業時進行談判的關鍵因素之一是，我們如何共同生活，對嗎？

How we're going to make decisions together, whether it's a 50-50 joint venture or it's a majority-minority joint venture, you need to figure out what the rules of the road, so to say, are going to be.

我們將如何共同做出決定，是五五分成的合資企業，還是少數服從多數的合資企業，你需要搞清楚道路規則是什麼。

And can you talk about, people often start with sort of, who should have the main decision power?

你能談談，人們通常會從誰應該擁有主要決策權開始嗎？

In a 50-50 joint venture, you have shareholders, then shareholders nominate directors.

在 50-50 合資企業中，有股東，然後由股東提名董事。

In a way, it shouldn't really matter, right, whether the decision is made by the board or the decision is made by shareholders, or does it?

從某種程度上說，由董事會決定還是由股東決定其實並不重要，對嗎？

It does, for a variety of reasons.

的確如此，原因是多方面的。

If the shareholders appoint a board, whether Delaware law or other jurisdictions law, those directors now are torn.

如果股東任命了董事會，無論是特拉華州法律還是其他司法管轄區的法律，這些董事現在都很糾結。

Are their obligations toward the joint venture, which they now direct as directors or as management, or is their loyalty to the mothership, whichever their employer who assigned them, who seconded them to the company?

他們對合資企業的義務是他們現在作為董事或管理層所上司的合資企業，還是他們對母公司的忠誠，無論母公司是指派他們的僱主，還是借調他們到公司的僱主？

And so managing those fiduciary duties and asking your employees to assume those fiduciary duties, and in certain jurisdictions, if the JV gets into trouble, they personally are liable.

是以，管理這些信託責任，要求員工承擔這些信託責任，在某些司法管轄區，如果合資公司陷入困境，他們個人要承擔責任。

And so that is a significant responsibility to ask an employee to assume.

是以，要求員工承擔這樣的責任是非常重要的。

And so there are certain companies that ask their best and brightest to take on that responsibility, because it is so heavy.

是以，有些公司會要求他們最優秀的員工承擔這個責任，因為這個責任太沉重了。

And there are some companies that they don't, I'll say, look, they park maybe employees who are not thriving at the JV level.