In an emotional conversation with America's highest-ranking doctor, Vivek Murthy, the U.S.

在與美國最高級別的醫生維韋克-穆爾西（Vivek Murthy）的情感對話中，美國

Surgeon General wears his heart on his sleeve, talking about his own struggles with loneliness.

外科醫生將自己的心事寫在袖子上，講述自己與孤獨的抗爭。

He came to London for the World Happiness Summit this week, and his timing couldn't be better.

他本週來到倫敦參加世界幸福峰會，時機再好不過了。

The Global Mind Project claims the UK is the second most unhappy country in the world.

全球心靈項目（Global Mind Project）稱，英國是世界上第二不快樂的國家。

Meanwhile, in America, a new report says that for the first time, young people there, between 15 and 24, aren't as happy as their older peers.

與此同時，在美國，一份新的報告稱，美國 15 至 24 歲的年輕人首次不如他們年長的同齡人快樂。

Dr. Murthy says social media silos and addictive smartphones are making us more anxious and depressed than ever, and he wants lawmakers to step up now.

穆爾西博士說，社交媒體孤島和令人上癮的智能手機讓我們比以往任何時候都更加焦慮和抑鬱，他希望立法者現在就站出來。

Surgeon General, welcome to the program.

外科醫生，歡迎來到節目。

Thank you so much.

非常感謝。

You are in England.

您在英國。

I mean, perhaps people would be surprised to know that you're here for a happiness summit.

我的意思是，也許人們會驚訝於你是來參加幸福峰會的。

In fact, we're talking on International Happiness Day.

事實上，我們正在談論國際幸福日。

Why?

為什麼？

Why is it needed?

為什麼需要？

What is the problem with the deficit of happiness?

幸福赤字的問題出在哪裡？

Well, the problem is that, you know, happiness is intrinsically linked to health.

嗯，問題是，你知道，幸福與健康有著內在的聯繫。

You know, when we are not feeling happy, when we're not feeling fulfilled in our lives, that affects how we show up at work, at school, in our communities, but it also ultimately has an impact on our physical health.

要知道，當我們感覺不快樂，當我們感覺生活不充實，這會影響我們在工作、學校和社區中的表現，但最終也會影響我們的身體健康。

We've now learned over the years that there's a strong connection between our mind and our body, how we feel and how we are.

多年來，我們已經認識到，我們的身心、我們的感覺和我們的狀態之間有著密切的聯繫。

And the more we've learned about that, we've learned, for example, that issues like loneliness and isolation have tremendous effects in increasing the risk for both depression and anxiety, but also for heart disease, for dementia, and for premature death.

我們對此瞭解得越多，就越能認識到，例如，孤獨和隔離等問題不僅會增加抑鬱和焦慮的風險，還會增加患心臟病、痴呆症和過早死亡的風險。

Are you surprised?

你感到驚訝嗎？

And I know that you are Yorkshire-born.

我知道你出生在約克郡。

In other words, you are a Yorkshire lad, let's say.

換句話說，你是一個約克郡小夥子。

Are you surprised that this country, I mean, you know, pretty close to top of the tables in the OECD nations, is the second most unhappy, depressed country in the world?

我的意思是，你知道，這個國家在經合組織國家中幾乎名列前茅，但卻是世界上第二不快樂、最抑鬱的國家，你對此感到驚訝嗎？

Only Uzbekistan has it worse.

只有烏茲別克斯坦的情況更糟。

We're just gonna play a couple of soundbites.

我們只播放幾個片段。

I think a lot of people can be taken down by the weather, but coming from the U.S., from California to here, I love it, I made a choice to move here.

我想很多人都會被天氣影響，但我來自美國，從加利福尼亞來到這裡，我喜歡這裡，我選擇搬到這裡。

People are just getting more and more downbeat by the fact that they're not being helped by the government, market forces, et cetera, and I think it just, yeah, it can be really difficult.

由於得不到政府、市場力量等方面的幫助，人們的情緒越來越低落，我認為這真的很困難。

We're not that unhappy.

我們沒那麼不開心。

I think the older generation is soon gonna be happier than the younger generation.

我認為，老一代人很快就會比年輕一代人更幸福。

Are you surprised?

你感到驚訝嗎？

Well, I'm deeply concerned, but I think one of the key lessons from this is that economic prosperity alone is not the key to happiness, and in fact, what we are seeing is that in many countries, which are increasingly modernizing in terms of their economy, their culture, et cetera, we're actually seeing that unhappiness is growing, and I think that's coming for a few different reasons.

我對此深感憂慮，但我認為從中得到的一個重要啟示是，經濟繁榮本身並不是幸福的關鍵，事實上，我們看到的是，在許多經濟、文化等方面日益現代化的國家，我們實際上看到不幸福感正在增加，我認為這有幾個不同的原因。

One of them is because we are actually pulling further and further apart from one another.

其中一個原因是，我們之間的距離實際上越來越遠。

With the benefits and efficiencies of modern technology and ways of life, we actually have fewer friends that we trust, we have fewer relationships we can rely on, and that is a direct impact on our happiness and well-being.

隨著現代科技和生活方式帶來的好處和效率的提高，我們信任的朋友實際上越來越少，我們可以依賴的人際關係也越來越少，這直接影響到我們的幸福和安康。

The other challenge, though, is I think technology has been a mixed blessing for us, and I think particularly when it comes to young people, the impact of social media on their mental health has often been quite negative, which is why last year, I issued a Surgeon General's advisory on social media and youth mental health to point out the fact that when young people are using social media, as they often are, for more than three hours a day, they double their risk of anxiety and depression symptoms.

不過，另一個挑戰是，我認為技術對我們來說是喜憂參半的，我認為尤其是對年輕人來說，社交媒體對他們心理健康的影響往往是相當負面的，這就是為什麼去年我發佈了一份關於社交媒體和青少年心理健康的外科醫生建議書，指出當年輕人每天使用社交媒體超過三小時時，他們出現焦慮和抑鬱症狀的風險就會增加一倍。

You have, in fact, gone even further, comparing social media and the tech companies to 20th century car giants, which have produced vehicles without seatbelts and airbags until legislation mandated it.

事實上，你走得更遠，把社交媒體和科技公司比作 20 世紀的汽車巨頭，它們生產的汽車沒有安全帶和安全氣囊，直到立法強制要求。

What's happening in social media is the equivalent of having children in cars that have no safety features and driving on roads with no speed limits, no traffic lights, no rules whatsoever, and we're telling them, you know what, do your best, figure it out, it's insane.

社交媒體上發生的一切，就相當於讓孩子們坐在沒有任何安全設施的汽車裡，在沒有限速、沒有紅綠燈、沒有任何規則的道路上行駛，而我們卻告訴他們，你知道嗎，盡你所能，想辦法解決，這太瘋狂了。

Yeah, that is what we've done to our children.

是啊，這就是我們對孩子們所做的一切。

It's we've put them in unsafe, untenable environments, and we're hoping for the best.

是我們把他們放在了不安全、難以維持的環境中，而我們卻寄希望於最好的結果。

And you know who else we've placed a burden on?

你知道我們還給誰帶來了負擔嗎？

Our parents.

我們的父母

Parents all across the world are trying to figure out how to manage social media for their kids.

全世界的家長都在想辦法如何為孩子管理社交媒體。

These platforms are rapidly evolving.

這些平臺正在迅速發展。

Many parents never grew up with them, and what they are finding is that their kids are often exposed to extraordinary harms, whether that's violence and sexual content, whether it's content generated by the algorithm that in some cases tells them to harm themselves.

許多父母從來沒有和孩子們一起長大，他們發現，他們的孩子經常會受到非同尋常的傷害，無論是暴力和性內容，還是算法生成的內容，在某些情況下，算法會告訴他們要傷害自己。

And the experience itself, many young people tell me, has led them to often feel worse about themselves and about their friendships, yet they feel they can't get off of it because the features that are built in are meant to maximize how much time we all spend on them, and that is a profound source of concern for me as a doctor as I watch the profound and disturbing health effects on our kids.

許多年輕人告訴我，這種體驗本身往往會讓他們對自己和友誼產生更壞的感覺，但他們又覺得自己無法擺脫這種感覺，因為內置的功能就是為了最大限度地延長我們花在上面的時間。

Can I ask you a personal question?

我能問你一個私人問題嗎？

Yes.

是的。

Did you have personal experience as a child with any kind of loneliness that informs your, you know, your zeal for this?

你在童年時是否有過任何孤獨的親身經歷，從而影響了你，你知道，你對這個問題的熱情？

I did, Christiane.

是的，克里斯蒂安娜。

I struggled a lot with loneliness as a child.

我小時候經常與孤獨作鬥爭。

I was shy.

我很害羞。

I was introverted.

我很內向。

I didn't have a lot of people who were from similar cultural backgrounds or, you know, immigrant backgrounds, and I ended up feeling quite different and left out a lot.

我沒有很多來自類似文化背景或移民背景的人，我最終覺得自己很與眾不同，被冷落了很多。

And that was really hard, but what was particularly hard for me, Christiane, was the shame that came with that.

這真的很難，但對我來說，克里斯蒂安娜，尤其難的是隨之而來的羞恥感。

I came to believe as a kid that something was wrong with me.

我從小就認為自己出了問題。

That's why I was lonely and something was broken.

這就是為什麼我很孤獨，有些東西壞掉了。

Maybe I wasn't likable.

也許我並不討人喜歡。

Maybe I wasn't lovable.

也許我並不可愛。

And even though my parents loved me unconditionally, Christiane, I never told them about these struggles because I felt ashamed.

儘管我的父母無條件地愛我，克里斯蒂安娜，但我從未告訴他們這些掙扎，因為我覺得羞愧。

I have felt this as an adult at times, too, these struggles with loneliness.

成年後，我有時也會感受到這種與孤獨的抗爭。

After my first stint as Surgeon General, in fact, I was left without a work community.

事實上，在我第一次擔任外科醫生之後，我就沒有了工作社區。

I had largely neglected my friends and family as I allowed myself to get inundated with my work, and I bore the consequence of that later when I felt profoundly alone and lost.

由於忙於工作，我在很大程度上忽視了我的朋友和家人，後來我承受了這一後果，感到了深深的孤獨和失落。

And I think a lot of people go through these struggles.

我想很多人都經歷過這樣的掙扎。

We don't talk about them often, but they're deep, they're profound, and they're part of the human experience.

我們並不經常談論它們，但它們是深刻的，是人類經驗的一部分。

If you experience loneliness from time to time, it's one thing.

如果你時常感到孤獨，那是一回事。

If you reconnect with people, that loneliness goes away.

如果你重新與人建立聯繫，孤獨感就會消失。

It's when it's prolonged, when it's deep, that's when it starts to have impacts on our health and well-being.

只有當它持續時間長、程度深時，才會開始對我們的健康和幸福產生影響。

And if we can just talk more openly about this, if we can recognize the power of showing up in each other's lives, of checking on friends, of putting 10 minutes aside each day to reach out to people we care about, we can make a big difference in how connected we are.

如果我們能更坦誠地討論這個問題，如果我們能認識到在彼此的生活中出現的力量，認識到關心朋友的力量，認識到每天抽出 10 分鐘與我們關心的人聯繫的力量，我們就能在我們的聯繫程度上做出巨大的改變。

That's one aspect of the loneliness.

這是孤獨的一個方面。

The other aspect, as you said, is the social media.

另一方面，正如你所說，是社交媒體。

And you, I was staggered to read that you'd gone to several universities in the United States, and where there should be chatter and connection, there was total silence.

而你，當我讀到你在美國的幾所大學裡，本該嘰嘰喳喳、互通有無的地方卻一片寂靜時，我感到非常震驚。

Yes, this is one of the most striking things on the university tour that I did in the United States, was just the volume on the campuses and in the dining halls was much lower.

是的，這是我在美國參觀大學時最引人注目的一點，那就是校園和食堂裡的飯量要小得多。

I remember when I was in university, that the loudest place on campus was actually the dining hall.

我記得上大學時，校園裡最吵鬧的地方其實是食堂。

We would all finish our classes, come there, and everyone wanted to talk, talk, talk, and catch up.

我們都上完課，來到那裡，每個人都想聊聊天，談談心，敘敘舊。

But not only is it quieter there because people aren't talking, they're on their devices.

但那裡不僅更安靜，因為人們都不說話，而是在使用自己的設備。

They ask you, how are we supposed to even meet people and have conversation?

他們會問你，我們怎麼去見人，怎麼去哈拉？

That's right, because it feels intrusive, they would say, to approach somebody when they've got their earbuds in, when they're looking at their phone.

沒錯，因為他們會說，當別人戴著耳機、看著手機時，接近他們會有一種侵犯感。

And the harder, the less you do it, the harder it gets, because our social muscle has to be built over time.

而且越難，你做得越少，就越難，因為我們的社交肌肉需要長期鍛鍊。

If we don't exercise it, meaning if we don't interact with other people, start conversations, engage in person, that muscle becomes weaker, and in-person interaction becomes harder and harder.

如果我們不鍛鍊它，也就是說，如果我們不與其他人互動，不開始對話，不與人交往，這塊肌肉就會變弱，人際交往就會變得越來越難。

And that's what we're seeing with our kids.

這就是我們在孩子身上看到的。

And so, of course, now everybody thinks AI is going to be the replacement for romance, not just dating apps, but actual robots and things.

當然，現在每個人都認為人工智能將取代浪漫，不僅僅是約會軟件，還有真正的機器人和其他東西。

What's your view on that?

你對此有何看法？

I think it can be tempting and easy to look at AI as a panacea for all ills, and it might be easier and more convenient to turn to a chatbot than to go out and build a relationship.

我認為，將人工智能視為包治百病的靈丹妙藥可能很誘人，也很容易，而且求助於哈拉機器人可能比走出去建立關係更容易、更方便。

But these are fundamentally different.

但這兩者有著本質的不同。

There is no replacement for in-person human connection.

面對面的人際交往是無法替代的。

It's how we were evolved over thousands of years.

幾千年來，我們就是這樣進化的。

We were wired, hardwired, to connect with one another.

我們被連接起來，硬生生地連接在一起。

And we've got to intentionally build that back into our life now because it is slipping away.

現在，我們必須有意識地在生活中重新建立這種感覺，因為它正在悄然離去。

Vivek Murthy, thank you very much for being with us.

維韋克-穆爾蒂，非常感謝您接受我們的採訪。

Thanks so much, Christiane.

非常感謝，克里斯蒂安娜。

Good to be with you.

很高興和你在一起