You're cited as being really the founder of modern intermittent fasting. And I've heard people talk about intermittent fasting on this show over and over and over and over again now, but the internet says that it really came from you. I know that intermittent fasting has been happening for thousands of years, but the idea of it as a tool for weight loss, they say it came from you. Because in 2013, 2014, really nobody was talking about it from a medical standpoint.

你被認為是現代間歇性斷食法的創始人。我聽人們在節目中一遍又一遍地談論間歇性斷食法，但網上說它確實是你發明的。我知道間歇性斷食已經有幾千年的歷史了，但把它作為減肥工具的想法，他們說是來自於你。因為在2013年、2014年的時候，從醫學的角度來看，真的沒有人談論過它。

What's happening in the body? Why is it good? Why is it bad? And really I was, for years, sort of this one voice in the wilderness that was saying like, hey, this is a tool for us.

身體裡發生了什麼？為什麼是好？為什麼不好？多年來，我就像是荒野中的一個聲音，在說，嘿，這是我們的工具。

If you want to lose weight because it's important, then you can just set aside a period of time that you don't eat. At the time, people thought it was extremely bad for you. And I looked through all the literature and I said, well, why is it bad for you? And they had all these reasons. There's all these myths about intermittent fasting and how it's going to cause you to gain weight and be tired and hungry and all these sorts of things. I said, well, no, there's actually a lot of data here over the last 2,000 years that we've used intermittent fasting and they're simply not true. And I can go over a few of those, but that's why there was nobody talking about it at the time and that's where I started to sort of bring it into the sort of public consciousness that this is a tool. That's all it is. Were you attacked for that at the time? Oh, absolutely. I got attacked from all sides. Doctors were coming after me. Dietitians were coming after me. Everybody thought

如果你想減肥，因為這很重要，那麼你可以留出一段時間不吃東西。當時，人們認為這對身體非常不好。我翻閱了所有的文獻，我問，為什麼對身體不好？他們給出了所有這些理由。關於間歇性禁食有很多神話，說它會讓你發胖、疲倦、飢餓，諸如此類。我說，不，實際上在過去的2000年裡，我們使用間歇性禁食的數據非常多，這些數據根本不是真的。我可以列舉其中的一些，但這就是為什麼當時沒有人談論它，這就是我開始讓公眾意識到這只是一種工具的原因。這就是它的全部。你當時是以受到攻擊了嗎？當然我受到了來自各方的攻擊醫生們來找我麻煩營養師也來找

I was going to do so much harm. And the funny part was that as I think back, as I spoke to a lot of colleagues, a lot of colleagues would say to me, you know what? I used to do that when I was in training. We did that all the time. We'd go 24 hours without eating because we're in the OR or we're in the ER or we're busy. So we did that constantly and nothing bad happened. And I remember thinking, you know what? As a doctor, I actually tell people to fast all the time.

我會造成很大的傷害。有趣的是，當我回想起來，當我和很多同事交談時，很多同事都會對我說，你知道嗎？我在受訓的時候也經常這麼做。我們經常這樣做。我們會 24 小時不吃飯，因為我們在手術室或急診室，或者我們很忙。我們經常這麼做，也沒發生過什麼不好的事。我記得當時在想，你知道嗎？作為一名醫生，我其實一直告訴人們要禁食。

If you have to go for surgery, you need to fast. If you're after surgery, you need to fast. If you do fasting blood work, you need to fast. So why is it that I'm actually telling people to fast all the time and yet for weight loss, you shouldn't fast? That doesn't make any sense.

如果你必須去做手術，你需要禁食。如果你做完手術，你需要禁食。如果你要做空腹血液檢查，你需要禁食。那麼，為什麼我總是告訴人們要禁食，而減肥時卻不應該禁食呢？這說不通啊。

And physiologically, from a body standpoint, it doesn't make any sense.

而且從生理角度來看，從身體角度來看，這沒有任何意義。

One of the things people talked about was, you know, it's going to make you eat more later. It's going to make you more hungry. Your basal metabolic rate is going to go down. This was one of the big myths of intermittent fasting. That's going to cause the so-called starvation mode, right? And this is the idea that your basal metabolic rate will fall so low that when you do start to eat, you're going to gain weight again. So I said, well, let's think about this. You can do a study where you take somebody, say you for example, and you could fast them for four days and measure how many calories they're burning, their basal metabolic rate, on day zero before the fast and measure them four days into the fast and see how many calories you're burning. So on day zero, they say you're burning say 2,000 calories a day. On day four of zero food, you don't eat any food for four days. They measure how much calories you're burning. Your body is burning 2,200 calories. Your basal metabolic rate didn't go down. It went up. Your body is activating itself during fasting, which is fascinating because if you're trying to lose weight, dropping that basal metabolic rate is death. Like if you drop that metabolic rate, it's so hard to lose weight. That's what the calorie restricted diets did. That's what the low fat diets did, the eating all the time did. But when you actually fast, your metabolic rate went up. And we see this in study after study. And the reason is actually basic physiology. It's actually medical physiology like first year medical school stuff. When you don't eat, what happens in your body from a hormone standpoint is that your insulin is going to fall. You're going to allow your body to start using the calories that are in the body. At the same time, other hormones go up.

人們談論的其中一件事是，你知道，這會讓你以後吃得更多。它會讓你更餓。你的基礎代謝率會下降。這是間歇性禁食的一大誤區。這會導致所謂的飢餓模式，對嗎？這就是你的基礎代謝率會降得很低，以至於當你開始進食時，體重又會增加。所以我說，好吧，讓我們考慮一下這個問題。你可以做一項研究，你可以把某個人，比如說你，禁食四天，然後測量他們燃燒了多少卡路里，他們的基礎代謝率，在禁食前的第零天，然後測量他們禁食四天後的基礎代謝率，看看你燃燒了多少卡路里。是以，在禁食的第零天，他們說你每天燃燒的熱量是 2000 卡路里。在零食的第

So the sympathetic tone goes up, which is your fight or flight response.

是以，交感神經音調會升高，這就是你的戰鬥或逃跑反應。

Your cortisol levels go up because again, it's an activation and your growth hormone goes up because those hormones are going to start telling your body to start pulling calories out.

你的皮質醇水準會升高，因為這也是一種激活，你的生長激素會升高，因為這些激素會開始告訴你的身體開始消耗熱量。

So you're actually activating yourself. Think about in the wild. If you see a hungry wolf, is that wolf just sort of, you know, all like lethargic? No, he's activated. He's actually more dangerous than any other wolf, as opposed to, say, a lion who just ate. Because when you just eat, you just want to lie there. You know, you want to digest your food. You have no energy.

所以，你實際上是在激活自己。想想在野外。如果你看到一隻飢餓的狼，那隻狼會不會只是昏昏欲睡？不，它被激活了。實際上，它比其他任何狼都要危險，比方說，一頭剛吃飽的獅子。因為剛吃完東西的時候 你只想躺在那裡你想消化你的食物你沒有能量

So people say, well, your metabolic rate is going to go down if you fast. No, the truth is actually the opposite. It goes up. Do you fast? Oh, I do that regularly. Yeah. And what does your fast look like? Because I've heard of all these different types of fasting, 36 hours, 72 hours, 14 hours.

是以，人們會說，如果你禁食，你的新陳代謝率就會下降。不，事實恰恰相反。它會上升。你會禁食嗎？哦，我經常這樣做。我經常這麼做那你的禁食是什麼樣的？因為我聽說過各種不同的禁食方式 36小時 72小時 14小時

There's no rules for fasting. You could do, you know, it could be 16 hours. So 14 hours, remember, is sort of a baseline, 12 to 14 hours, right? That just means you're not eating after dinner.

禁食沒有規則。你可以做，你知道，它可以是16小時。所以14小時，記住，是一種基線，12到14小時，對嗎？這只是意味著你晚餐後不吃東西。

That's it. And so if you want to lose weight, that's probably not strong enough to make you lose weight because 12 to 14 hours is sort of just the baseline that people had in the 70s.

就是這樣。是以，如果你想減肥，這可能不足以讓你減肥，因為 12 到 14 個小時只是 70 年代人們的基準。

So you can go to 16 hours, for example, and you shrink that by either eating breakfast a little later or eating dinner a little earlier. But you can do more than that. You can do, say, a 24-hour fast. You could eat two meals a day, say, eat between 12 and 6. That's a six-hour eating window. Or you could eat once a day, which is like a 24-hour fast. Or you could even go multiple days without eating because, again, your body is smart. Like, your body knows what to do.

例如，你可以將時間縮減到 16 個小時，要麼晚一點吃早餐，要麼早一點吃晚餐。但你可以做得更多。比如說，你可以24小時禁食。你可以一天吃兩頓飯，比如在12點到6點之間吃。這就是六小時的進食時間。或者你可以一天吃一次，這就相當於 24 小時禁食。你甚至可以多天不吃東西，因為你的身體很聰明。你的身體知道該怎麼做

If you have all those calories sitting on your body, right, 100,000 calories sitting in body fat and you don't eat for three days, well, you need 6,000 calories. Well, you have 100,000, 200,000. So what's the problem? Take it out of your body fat. Let your body eat your body fat.

如果你有所有這些卡路里在你的身體上，右， 100,000卡路里坐在身體脂肪，你不吃三天，好了，你需要6,000卡路里。好吧，你有10萬，20萬。那有什麼問題？從體內脂肪中攝取讓你的身體吃掉你的脂肪

That's what fasting is doing for you. And it's totally natural because that's what it's there for. That body fat is not there for looks. It's there for you as a source, as a store of calories.

這就是禁食對你的作用。這是完全自然的，因為這就是它的作用。體內的脂肪不是為了好看它是你的熱量來源，是你的熱量儲存。

So fasting just lets you use that. There's nothing wrong with it.

所以禁食只是讓你利用這一點。這沒什麼不好。

Leptin is this hormone that essentially brings down my hunger, makes me less hungry.

瘦素是從本質上降低我的飢餓感的荷爾蒙，讓我不那麼餓。

Is it therefore possible that people are becoming leptin resistant?

是以，人們是否有可能對瘦素產生抗藥性？

There is leptin resistance. The question, again, is why? And the way to think about it is it's sort of a sort of balance, right? So insulin, if you give people insulin, like if you think about causes of obesity, what causes people to gain weight? Well, if I give you insulin, you'll gain weight. If I give me insulin, I'll gain weight. So insulin causes weight gain, whereas leptin will cause the opposite. So it's sort of this seesaw. Body fat is nothing more or less than a store of energy, right? And you only store energy when your body tells you. Our entire body runs on hormones, right? Nothing happens without the hormonal system being activated. So insulin is pushing us to gain weight. Leptin is pushing us to lose weight. And what's happening is that one is sort of overcoming the other. Insulin is overcoming the leptin.

存在瘦素抵抗。問題又來了，為什麼？思考這個問題的方法是，這是一種平衡，對嗎？所以胰島素，如果你給人們注射胰島素，就像如果你思考肥胖的原因，是什麼導致人們體重增加？如果我給你胰島素，你就會發胖。如果我給我注射胰島素，我的體重也會增加。所以胰島素會導致體重增加，而瘦素則相反。這就是蹺蹺板的原理。體脂只不過是一種能量儲存，對吧？只有當你的身體告訴你的時候，你才會儲存能量。我們的整個身體都是靠荷爾蒙運轉的，對吧？沒有荷爾蒙系統的激活，什麼都不會發生。所以胰島素會促使我們增重。瘦素促使我們減肥而現在的情況是，一種激

In the last six months, so many of the nutritionists I've spoken to have really impressed upon me that we are fiber deficient. And I'm wondering how that happened.

在過去的六個月裡，我接觸過的很多營養學家都給我留下了一個深刻的印象，那就是我們缺乏纖維。我想知道這是怎麼發生的。

Well, I think it was part of the processing thing. So taking out fiber is a great way to make foods more appealing, if you will. So what happens is that if you take flour, for example, and you have a lot of fiber in it, then the digestion is slowed. So what you get is a slower rise. So you take flour and you put a lot of fiber in it. Well, instead of having this huge spike in insulin, which you're going to get, it's a much slower spike in insulin. When you have a huge spike in insulin, it basically overloads your system. And it makes you feel, you know, gives you this big hit. Sort of like if you have like cocaine, for example. You know, it's turned into a very fine powder. Then you snort it. So you get this massive sort of spike. Same thing with, you know, carbohydrates. If you don't have any fiber, you pull all the fiber out by processing. You get this massive sort of unnatural spike in your body. It says, oh, that's great. It tastes great. I really love it. And you get people who are sort of addicted to it because that big spike is then going to release dopamine. And dopamine is the pleasure hormone. So you eat, you know, cookies or whatever highly processed foods, you get this sort of pleasurable response.

我認為這是加工過程的一部分。是以，如果你願意，去除纖維是讓食物更誘人的好方法。比如說，如果麵粉中含有大量纖維，那麼消化速度就會減慢。是以，你會得到一個緩慢的上升過程。是以，如果在麵粉中加入大量纖維那麼，胰島素的飆升速度就會大大減慢，而不是像以前那樣。當你的胰島素飆升過快時 基本上會讓你的系統超載它會讓你感覺，你知道，給你很大的衝擊。就像你吸食可卡因一樣你知道，它會變成很細的粉末然後你吸食你就會得到這種巨大的刺激碳水化合物也一樣如果你沒有任何纖維 你就會通過加工把纖維都拉出來你的身體就會產生大量不自然的 "

And that makes you crave it. If you have a lot of fiber, it acts almost sort of like an antidote to that carbohydrate because you're slowing down that release. What foods are high in fiber?

這就會讓你對它產生渴望。如果你攝入大量的纖維素，它的作用就像是碳水化合物的解毒劑，因為你正在減緩碳水化合物的釋放。哪些食物纖維含量高？

Well, mostly unprocessed foods. So things like beans. And if you're having, if you're eating whole grains, for example, compared to others, then it's going to have a reduction in the speed of absorption. So it's, again, not about the calories necessarily or even necessarily about the carbohydrates because you're still eating the same amount of carbohydrate, but you're slowing down the speed at which is absorbed, which is going to change the instructions that you give your body. If you have a massive spike in glucose, you get this massive dopamine surge, right? And your body's like, you'll love it. Then the next time you're like, okay, give me that refined carbohydrate. What about protein? Because we, we tend to think of protein as something that, you know, is super great for weight loss. Yeah. Protein is probably a sort of inter, it's not bad. I mean, the main thing is cutting down the carbohydrates, but, you know, in the obesity code, I really talk about cutting the processing down because proteins usually don't come as pure protein, right? In nature, you never find like, you know, how you have like whey powder protein or whatever you get. The only way you can do that is by processing the heck out of food to get some kind of pure protein. It doesn't exist in nature. Like it almost doesn't exist. And maybe there's a few examples, but when you eat meat, you think, okay, there's a lot of protein, but that's actually a lot of fat in there too, right? If you eat anything else that has protein, it's rarely all protein, you know, very lean meats like chicken breast and stuff are going to be higher in protein, but there's still a lot of other stuff in there. And it's very rare that somebody will eat just all pure a hundred percent protein. It tends to be hard to eat. Like the fat brings a lot of flavor and so on. So it's a bit of an unnatural way to eat. Sure. If you, if you're to eat a lot of protein, it does spike insulin. So it does have some effect to gain weight, but it's actually a very inefficient macronutrient. That is your, there's three macronutrients.

嗯，主要是未經加工的食物。比如豆類。如果你吃的是全穀物，例如，與其他食物相比，吸收速度就會降低。是以，再次強調，這與熱量無關，甚至與碳水化合物無關，因為你吃的碳水化合物量還是一樣的，只是吸收的速度減慢了，這會改變你給身體的指令。如果你攝入了大量的葡萄糖，你就會得到大量的多巴胺，對嗎？你的身體會說，你會喜歡的。然後下一次你就會想，好吧，給我精製碳水化合物。那蛋白質呢？因為我們往往認為蛋白質 對減肥有很大幫助是啊蛋白質可能是一種間，它不是壞的。我的意思是，最主要的是減少碳水化合物的攝入量，但是，你知道，在肥胖

There's carbohydrates, there's fat, and there's protein. Your body stores energy or calories in two ways. There's glucose, which is carbohydrate, and it stores it as body fat, which is fat, right? It doesn't, protein is not a way for the body to store energy. So when you're eating a lot of protein, it's very difficult for it to turn it into a storage mechanism. Like, you know, so you eat glucose and you eat fat, you can store glucose and you can store fat. You eat protein, but you don't really store it as a source of energy. So if all foods then increase our insulin levels, I guess the best solution is to fast. Fasting is certainly one way, but just changing the foods to, uh, otherwise, because if you look at the insulin, uh, release in processed foods versus unprocessed foods, there's a huge difference. So if you eat sort of, uh, highly refined foods like white bread, for example, then you're going to have a very different response in insulin compared to sort of, um, uh, a whole, a whole food. So, uh, unprocessed foods in general, your body knows how to handle, like we've been eating them for thousands of years. Um, but certainly anytime you eat, your insulin is going to go up. You're giving your body instructions to store energy. So the solution is to eat less often. What if you do a juice fast? Juice fast, of course, is not a real fast because you're taking a lot of sugars. What do you think of juice fasting? Um, I'm generally, I, I, I think it's less effective than regular fasting and it really depends on how much juice you take. If you take a lot of juice, you could easily get, you know, thousands of calories plus a lot of sugar. If you do it, you know, cucumber juice and stuff that's very low in sugar and kale juice, then it could be very, very healthy for you because there's vitamins and stuff there. So it all depends on how it's done. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last last guest leaves a question for the next guest without knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question that's been left for you is what is your greatest gift to the world? I think if, if, if, you know, I suppose it's sounds very arrogant. Um, but I really hope that my, my work helps people sort of sort of reverse the type two diabetes. Cause that is really sort of one of the most close things that I deal with because I deal with it professionally sort of every day.

有碳水化合物、脂肪和蛋白質。你的身體以兩種方式儲存能量或卡路里。一種是葡萄糖，也就是碳水化合物；另一種是脂肪，也就是脂肪，對嗎？蛋白質不是人體儲存能量的方式。所以當你攝入大量蛋白質時，很難將其轉化為一種儲存機制。就像你吃葡萄糖和脂肪一樣，你可以儲存葡萄糖，也可以儲存脂肪。你吃了蛋白質，但並不能真正將其作為能量來源儲存起來。是以，如果所有食物都會增加我們的胰島素水準，我想最好的解決辦法就是禁食。禁食當然也是一種方法，但只是把食物換成，呃，其他的，因為如果你看看胰島素，呃，在加工食品和未加工食品中的釋放，有一

Um, and helps break the stigma of not just the stigma, but the understanding like, you know, stimulates more thinking about weight loss, how to lose weight more than calories and calories. I mean, it's so sort of pie in the sky because, you know, it's, there's a whole, you know, worldwide sort of institutionalized fossilized almost, you know, thinking around calories, it's all about calories, that sort of thing. So to, for me to upset, it seems ridiculous, but I hope that I can at least start that conversation to say, Hey, let's think about these things. Let's think about the hormones. Let's think about reversing type two diabetes. Let's think about all getting together and helping each other to become so much healthier, not through drugs and not through more surgery and not with, you know, weird and new things that you've never heard of, but with the tried and the true sort of oldest thinking that has been there. Right. It's, it's, to me, it's, I sometimes think about this and I get crazy. I like, why do I think I can even do that? Right. It's just ridiculous. It's so much hubris, but you know, I, I can only try. Right. Because I see in my own practice, how much good it's done for some people. So it drives me to say, I need to bring it to more people. I need to, to, to explain it to them. If they want to be helped, they will be helped. But if they don't want to, I'm not trying to force myself to do anything, but you know, that's what I hope my greatest gift will be. But at the same time, I sort of think that's just, you know, you're crazy. If you can think you can do that, but. Well, it's the crazy ones that change the world, Dr. Jason.

嗯，有助於打破鄙視，不僅僅是鄙視，而是理解，就像，你知道的，激發更多關於減肥的思考，如何減肥比卡路里和卡路里更重要。我的意思是，這有點像空中樓閣，因為，你知道，這是，有一個整體，你知道，全世界範圍內的那種制度化的化石几乎，你知道，圍繞卡路里的思考，這是所有關於卡路里，諸如此類的東西。所以，對我來說，這似乎很荒謬，但我希望我至少可以開始這樣的對話，說：嘿，讓我們想想這些事情。讓我們想想荷爾蒙讓我們想想如何逆轉二型糖尿病。讓我們考慮一下大家聚在一起 互相幫助 讓自己變得更健康 不是通過藥物 也不是通過更多的手

It's the crazy ones that change the world. And even with, you know, your conversation around intermittent fasting has changed many, many lives that you'll never get to meet. I imagine many, many millions, many, many millions, because it's even brought the conversation to this show before you entered the room many, many months and months and months. And almost a year ago, people started talking on the show about intermittent fasting and that's in many respects due to the work that you've done to further that conversation. And now your work continues to highlight the fact that type two diabetes is a reversible disease in many cases.

瘋狂的人才能改變世界。即使你知道，你關於間歇性禁食的談話 已經改變了很多很多你永遠也見不到的生命。我想，數以百萬計的人，數以百萬計的人，因為甚至在你進入這個房間之前，就已經把這個話題帶到了這個節目中，很多很多個月，很多很多個月，很多很多個月。差不多一年前，人們開始在節目中談論間歇性禁食，這在很多方面要歸功於你為推動這一話題所做的工作。現在，你的工作繼續強調一個事實，即在許多情況下，二型糖尿病是一種可逆的疾病。

And I think, again, that's going to save, you know, tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions of lives over the coming decades and years. So thank you for what you do, Dr. Jason. It's a huge honor to get to sit with you today. And I feel wiser and more enlightened and like someone has turned the lights on in a certain part of my knowledge because of this conversation. So I thank you for that tremendously. Thank you so much. It's been great.

我認為，在未來的幾十年裡，這將拯救數以千萬計，甚至數以億計的生命。謝謝你所做的一切，傑森博士。今天能和您坐在一起，我深感榮幸。通過這次談話，我覺得自己變得更聰明、更有悟性，就像有人點亮了我知識的某一部分。所以我非常感謝你。非常感謝。這真是太棒了。

If you love the Driver CEO brand and you watch this channel, please do me a huge favor, become part of the 15% of the viewers on this channel that have hit the subscribe button.

如果您喜歡 Driver CEO 品牌並收看本頻道，請幫我一個大忙，成為本頻道點擊訂閱按鈕的 15%觀眾中的一員。

It helps us tremendously. And the bigger the channel gets, the bigger the guests.

這對我們幫助很大。頻道越大，客人就越多。