The films come out of a need to make an image, an impulse to make a film, and the meaning emerges over the months of the making of the film.

這些電影源於拍攝影像的需要，源於拍攝電影的衝動，而意義則是在幾個月的拍攝過程中逐漸形成的。

So the only meaning they have in advance is the need for the film to exist.

是以，它們預先具有的唯一意義就是電影存在的必要性。

All children draw, but most children have the good sense to stop drawing when they reach 14.

所有的孩子都會畫畫，但大多數孩子都會在 14 歲時停止畫畫。

But I kept on drawing, and I'd also been, as children do, playing, acting.

但我一直在畫畫，我也像孩子們一樣在玩耍、表演。

And also most children have the good sense to leave it to professionals as they grow up.

而且，大多數孩子長大後都會有意識地把這件事交給專業人士去做。

But I'd continued.

但我還是堅持了下來。

So at university I was both drawing and acting in different student theatre groups.

所以在大學裡，我既畫畫，又在不同的學生劇團裡表演。

And I was advised by everybody to, you have to specialise, you either have to draw or you have to act, but you can't do both, you'll be an amateur.

每個人都勸我說，你必須專一，要麼畫畫，要麼演戲，但不能兩者兼顧，否則你就是業餘的。

So I decided I could not be an artist anymore, so I closed my studio, I sold my etching press, and I went to theatre school to learn to be an actor, where I discovered after three weeks I should not be an actor.

於是我決定不再做藝術家了，於是我關閉了我的工作室，賣掉了我的蝕刻印刷機，去戲劇學校學做演員，三週後我發現我不應該做演員。

So then I was no longer an actor nor an artist, and I tried to be a filmmaker, but I failed at that.

於是，我不再是一名演員，也不再是一名藝術家，我試圖成為一名電影製片人，但我失敗了。

I think one can just write one's biography in terms of being rescued by one's failures.

我認為，一個人可以用被失敗拯救的方式來寫自己的傳記。

And I failed at painting, and I failed at acting, and I failed at filmmaking, so I discovered in the end at the age of 30, I think, I was back making drawings.

我畫畫失敗了，演戲失敗了，拍電影也失敗了，所以到了 30 歲，我發現自己又開始畫畫了。

Even though I thought I wouldn't be an artist, that's the one thing I was doing.

儘管我認為自己不會成為一名藝術家，但這是我一直在做的一件事。

And then later on discovered, in fact, I also wanted to keep going with the theatre, and the drawings became films, and in the end I gave up trying to say what I was.

後來發現，其實我也想繼續從事戲劇創作，於是繪畫變成了電影，最後我放棄了表達自己的想法。

I was someone who did drawings and theatre and films, and it took me a long time to unlearn the advice I'd been given, and to understand for me the only hope was the cross-fertilisation between different mediums and genres.

我是一個畫畫、演戲和拍電影的人，我花了很長時間才從別人給我的建議中解脫出來，明白對我來說，唯一的希望就是不同媒介和流派之間的交叉融合。

I'd been doing it for a long time, drawing, thinking, OK, I'll do this until I find my real job.

我畫了很長時間的畫，心想，好吧，在找到真正的工作之前，我就幹這個吧。

And I always told friends, well, at the end I'd end up in a building society or a bank.

我總是跟朋友們說，好吧，我最後會去建築協會或銀行工作。

And at a certain point a friend of mine said, you understand, you're now 30, you have no work experience, no one will give you a job, you are unemployable, stop having this illusion that you'll find another life, either drown or swim, but accept, this is what you're doing.

在某一時刻，我的一位朋友說，你要明白，你現在已經 30 歲了，你沒有工作經驗，沒有人會給你工作，你是無法就業的，不要再幻想你會找到另一種生活，要麼淹死，要麼遊死，但要接受，這就是你正在做的事情。

And then I thought, OK, I will say to myself, I am an artist, and stuck with that label ever since.

然後我想，好吧，我就對自己說，我是一名藝術家。

It's very difficult to say how I started with animation.

很難說我是如何開始學習動畫的。

I think there are like four different origins you can give.

我想你可以給出四種不同的起源。

The first and the clearest one, I was painting a set for a piece of theatre, and a friend was making a film about the theatre project, and he thought, oh, it would be interesting to film the painting and construction of the set, but they did it with stop frame delayed action filming, so that the painting and the set construct themselves in a minute rather than in two days.

第一次，也是最清晰的一次，我正在為一個劇場繪製佈景，一位朋友正在拍攝一部關於劇場項目的電影，他想，哦，如果能拍攝佈景的繪製和搭建過程，一定會很有趣，但他們採用的是定格延時拍攝法，是以，繪製和搭建佈景只需一分鐘，而不是兩天。

And I was very held by how this looked, and asked if he would leave the camera in my studio for two days, and that became the first of the animated films of drawing in front of a camera.

我被這幅畫的效果深深吸引，就問他是否願意把攝影機放在我的工作室裡兩天，這就成了第一部在攝影機前作畫的卡通片。

So that was the start of animation.

這就是動畫的開端。

But then I realized that in fact several years before that I'd made another animated film with a friend in the studio performing and shooting stop frame of things that happened, so in fact there had been an earlier history.

但後來我意識到，其實在那之前的幾年，我和一位朋友在工作室裡表演並拍攝了另一部動畫電影，定格了一些發生過的事情，所以其實在那之前已經有了一段歷史。

And then I told people that was the start.

然後我告訴大家，這就是開始。

And then some years later a friend of mine said, you know, I've got an early animated film you made when you were 14 on my home movie camera, 8mm home movie camera, which was like a 20 second piece of drawings on top of each other.

幾年後，我的一個朋友說，你知道嗎，我有一部你 14 歲時用我的家用電影攝影機（8 毫米家用電影攝影機）拍的早期卡通片，就像一幅 20 秒鐘的圖畫疊在一起。

So there are tracks that go back, but also I started thinking it would be interesting to see how a drawing comes into being.

是以，有一些軌跡是可以追溯的，但我也開始想，如果能看到一幅畫是如何誕生的，那一定會很有趣。

That was the start of the last phase of animation, think about it, photograph myself successively as I make a drawing.

那是動畫製作最後階段的開始，想想看，我在畫畫的過程中陸續給自己拍照。

And then I discovered, of course, at the end that you didn't have to stop when the drawing was finished.

當然，最後我發現，畫完了也不用停下來。

You could keep altering the drawing and continuing filming, and suddenly you started making a film.

你可以不斷修改圖紙，繼續拍攝，突然間你就開始製作一部電影了。

But the central form, that of erasure and charcoal, was there before the idea of animation.

但是，在動畫概念出現之前，擦除和炭筆這種核心形式就已經存在了。

It wasn't if I said, I want to do animation, what technique will be good?

如果我說，我想做動畫，用什麼技術好呢？

It will be charcoal.

它會變成木炭。

It was from the charcoal drawing that the process of animation expanded.

動畫製作過程正是從炭筆畫開始的。

And there's something about charcoal as opposed to oil paint, in which just with a wipe of a cloth it disappears, or you erase it very easily, so you can change the drawing as quickly as you can think.

與油畫顏料相比，木炭有一種特性，只要用布一擦，它就會消失，或者你很容易就能擦掉它，所以你能以最快的速度改變畫作。

So it had an equivalence to the speed of thinking and the speed of drawing, and a provisionality in the animation.

是以，它與思考的速度和繪畫的速度相等，並在動畫中具有臨時性。

So you didn't have to make a final drawing.

所以，你不必做最後的圖紙。

You could make one fragment of a stage of something with immanence coming into being.

你可以把某個階段的一個片段做成無常的東西出現。

I proceed from an impulse, from an image that's in my head, from something, a phrase, a central idea, and start drawing.

我憑著一種衝動，憑著腦海中的一個畫面，憑著一些東西、一句話、一箇中心思想，開始畫畫。

And it's very slow, the animation, it takes several weeks, say, to do a minute.

動畫製作非常緩慢，比如說，做一分鐘的動畫需要幾周的時間。

And then I've got a minute of film, I'll look at that and think, well, what happens if we put this scene first and this scene second, or the other way around, or a third thing in between?

然後我有了一分鐘的膠片，我會看著它想，好吧，如果我們把這個場景放在第一位，把這個場景放在第二位，或者反過來，或者在中間放第三件事，會發生什麼呢？

What does it seem to suggest as a trajectory?

它似乎暗示了什麼軌跡？

And sometimes while drawing this scene, I think, oh, there's another scene inside it that could be drawn, and that gets...

有時在畫這個場景時，我會想，哦，裡面還有另一個場景可以畫，那就......

And so it's through a process of accretion, of adding, and discovering while it's being made that the film finds both its structure and its subject.

是以，影片在製作的過程中，通過不斷的積累、添加和發現，找到了自己的結構和主題。

But it's more about showing the process of thinking that I'm interested.

但我更感興趣的是展示思考的過程。

The way that one constructs a film out of these fragments, which one reinterprets retrospectively and changes the time of, is my sense of how we make sense of the world.

我認為，從這些片段中構建電影的方式，是我們如何認識世界的一種方式。

And so the animated films can be a demonstration of how we make sense of the world, rather than an instruction about what the world means.

是以，動畫電影可以展示我們是如何認識世界的，而不是說明世界的意義。

I think uncertainty is an essential category.

我認為不確定性是一個重要的範疇。

As soon as one gets certain, you hear it in people's voices.

一旦確定了，你就能從人們的聲音中聽出來。

As they are certain of something, their voice gets louder, more authoritarian and authoritative.

當他們對某件事情確信無疑時，他們的聲音就會變得更大、更專制、更權威。

And in the end, to defend the police, their voice and their certainty, they'll bring an army with guns to stand next to them to hold onto that.

最後，為了捍衛警察、他們的聲音和他們的確定性，他們會帶著一支持槍的軍隊站在他們旁邊，以堅持這一點。

So there's a desperation in all certainty.

所以，所有的確定性中都有一種絕望。

And I think the category of uncertainty, political uncertainty, philosophical uncertainty, uncertainty of images, is much closer to how the world is.

而我認為，不確定性、政治不確定性、哲學不確定性、影像不確定性等類別，更接近世界的本質。

And that also relates to provisionality, to the fact that you can see the world as a series of facts, of photographs, or you can see it as a process of unfolding, where the same thing in a different context has a very different meaning or a very different form.

這也與臨時性有關，你可以把世界看作一系列事實、照片，也可以把它看作一個展開的過程，同樣的事物在不同的語境中會有截然不同的意義或形式。

And I think animation, in a way, builds that into the very process itself.

我認為，動畫在某種程度上將這一點融入到創作過程本身。

But I think that provisionality and uncertainty is a very key category.

但我認為，臨時性和不確定性是一個非常關鍵的範疇。

And so the uncertainty at the start of a film, where there isn't a script or a storyboard, is on the one hand, in my case, an inability to write a story or to draw a storyboard, but it also allows it to function in a more emblematic way of how we understand the world.

是以，一部電影在開始時沒有劇本或故事板，這種不確定性一方面在我看來是無法編寫故事或繪製故事板，但同時也讓它以一種更具象徵性的方式體現了我們是如何理解這個世界的。

What I was trying to show in this film of the split between the artist as a viewer and as a maker, the fact that we occupy both of those subjectivities, was saying this is something which is very obvious in the studio.

在這部影片中，我試圖表現的是藝術家作為觀眾和作為製作者之間的分裂，我們同時擁有這兩種主體性，我想說的是，這在工作室中是非常明顯的。

You make your drawing and you're very close to it, so you can't really have a good view, and then you step back to look at it, and you see all the things that are wrong.

你在畫圖時離它很近，所以你無法看到它的全貌，然後你退後一步看它，你就會發現所有不對的地方。

And you make a mental note to say, alright, when I come back to the drawing, I must remember to shorten it or move this part down or make that darker, and then you step back.

然後你在心裡默唸：好吧，等我再來看這幅畫的時候，我一定要記得把它縮短，或者把這部分往下移，或者把那部分變暗，然後你就退後一步。

So that separation of oneself into these two contesting subjects is very obvious in the studio and very clear.

是以，在工作室裡，將自己分為這兩個相互競爭的主體是非常明顯和清晰的。

What's less obvious and clear is the way that is how we always operate in the world.

不那麼明顯和清晰的是，這就是我們在世界上的一貫運作方式。

So if you're a writer, that since you've written the paragraph and it seems great as you're writing it, and then you reread it and one is disappointed with the fact that it's not better.

是以，如果你是一名作家，那麼既然你已經寫了一段話，而且在寫的時候看起來很不錯，然後你重讀這段話，就會對它沒有寫得更好而感到失望。

It seems so much better when you're writing, and I'm writing such a great four lines of poetry here, this is fantastic, and then you read it and you think, who's the idiot that's written that?

當你在寫作時，"我正在寫一首很棒的四行詩，這太棒了"，"然後你讀了之後會想，這是誰寫的白痴詩？

How feeble, why can't he write better?

他怎麼就寫不好呢？

So I think that split is what I was trying to show using what happens in the studio as an example, as a demonstration of other things.

是以，我認為這就是我試圖用工作室裡發生的事情作為例子，來展示其他事情的分裂。

A lot of the work in the studio is demonstrating emblematically how we make sense of the world outside of the studio, which we naturalize and it becomes invisible.

工作室裡的很多作品都象徵性地展示了我們如何理解工作室之外的世界，我們將其自然化，使其變得無形。

So if you think of a collage as a classic 20th century art form, where you take fragments of a newspaper headline, a photograph, different things, and you combine them together to make a sense, one's very used to that as an artwork.

是以，如果把拼貼畫看成是 20 世紀的一種經典藝術形式，即把報紙標題、照片、不同事物的片段組合在一起，形成一種感覺，那麼人們就會非常習慣於把它作為一種藝術品。

But if you think for one instant, one understands that is the way we have to go through the world.

但是，只要你稍稍想一想，就會明白這就是我們必須經歷的世界。

There's no other way of going through the world.

在這個世界上，別無他法。

We don't have complete information, we can't take it in.

我們沒有完整的資訊，我們不能接受它。

We take in a fragment, a headline, a memory of a part of a dream, a phone conversation, and through this we construct what feels to us and to others as a coherent being.

我們接受一個片段、一個標題、一段夢境的記憶、一次電話交談，通過這些，我們構建出自己和他人感覺到的連貫的存在。

When one understands this self, in fact, is a completely provisional, fragile construction of a walking collage of thoughts and ideas and thinking.

當一個人明白這個自我，其實是一個完全臨時的、脆弱的、由思想、想法和思維拼貼而成的行走的建築。

I think that's the way in which the space of the studio becomes a demonstration of things much larger than the studio, much larger than the particular drawing.

我認為這就是工作室的空間成為比工作室更大、比特定繪畫更大的事物的展示方式。

I mean, in the end, I think I learned much more from the theatre school in Paris, called

我的意思是，最後，我認為我從巴黎的戲劇學校學到了更多，那所學校被稱為

Jacques Lecoq, a school of movement and mind, than I ever did from the art lessons at an art foundation I went to, about what constitutes an artwork.

雅克-勒科克（Jacques Lecoq）是運動和思想的學派，比我在一所藝術基金會上的藝術課時對藝術品的定義還要深刻。

What is the energy you need at the start of a gesture to complete it?

在一個手勢開始時，完成它所需要的能量是什麼？

When is something forced and when is something stopped?

什麼時候是強迫，什麼時候是阻止？

Understanding the way of thinking through the body.

通過身體理解思維方式。

I mean, making art is a practical activity for me.

我的意思是，藝術創作對我來說是一項實踐活動。

It's not sitting at a computer, it's not thinking through an idea, it's embodying an idea in a physical material, paper, charcoal, steel, wood.

這不是坐在電腦前，也不是在思考一個想法，而是將一個想法體現在紙張、木炭、鋼鐵、木材等物質材料中。

It's allowing the fact that between one's shoulder and one's finger there's an intelligence goes, and a reliance on that intelligence tracking parts of one's brain which aren't the same as one's conscious, planning, rational thoughts.

它允許一個事實，即在一個人的肩膀和一個人的手指之間，有一個智能去，並依靠該智能跟蹤一個人的大腦部分，這與一個人有意識的、有計劃的、理性的想法是不一樣的。

It's difficult to pin down what it is that's in the mind that is different from chance.

很難說清到底是什麼東西在頭腦中與偶然不同。

It's not like throwing the I Ching, and it's not from having a clear program.

這不像扔易經，也不是因為有了明確的程序。

But it's somewhere in between is an openness to recognize something as it happens.

但介於兩者之間的是一種開放的態度，在事情發生時就能認識到它。

So I think a central category is recognition.

是以，我認為一個核心類別就是認可。

And for that to operate, you need to have an open field.

而要做到這一點，你需要有一個開闊的場地。

If you have a very set plan of where you have to walk, where the drawing is going, it makes it much harder to allow yourself the openness to also see what's arriving by chance, through fortune at the edges.

如果你有一個非常固定的計劃，知道自己要走到哪裡，畫要畫到哪裡，那麼你就很難讓自己有開放的心態，也很難看到偶然出現的東西，看到邊緣的幸運。

And I think that's a very important category, both theoretically, but also in terms of strategy.

我認為這是一個非常重要的類別，不僅在理論上如此，在戰略上也是如此。

How does one work in the studio to enable this best to flower?

如何在工作室工作，才能讓這種最佳狀態開花結果？

One of the ways is not to have a script, or a storyboard, or a clear plan.

方法之一是沒有劇本、故事板或明確的計劃。

To not know the answer, and to hang on to, as long as possible, that provisionality and uncertainty.

不知道答案，並儘可能長時間地堅持這種臨時性和不確定性。

Well, there's always some guide.

嗯，總會有一些指南的。

I mean, it's not to say that there's nothing in one's head, and there's nothing.

我的意思是，這並不是說一個人的腦袋裡什麼都沒有，也不是說什麼都沒有。

There's a ton of material in the studio.

工作室裡有很多素材。

There are photo stats you've kept.

有你保存的照片統計。

There are projects or ideas.

有項目或想法。

There's the guide of saying, let's take a CD almost at random from the pile, and put that piece of music on, and take this piece of drawing I've been doing, and see what does that sound say to this image?

我們可以這樣說："讓我們幾乎是隨意地從一堆 CD 中抽出一張，放上那段音樂，再拿起我一直在畫的這幅畫，看看那聲音對這幅畫有什麼影響？

How can they work together?

它們如何才能合作？

All right, let's change the image, but keep the sound.

好吧，讓我們改變影像，但保留聲音。

Or keep the sound, change the image.

或者保留聲音，改變影像。

There's something once seen in the newspaper.

在報紙上曾經看到過一些東西。

There's a report of a story that someone has given.

有人報告了一個故事。

And then the question is, how long do you follow that?

那麼問題來了，你還要跟多久？

Do you follow that for six months, for two years?

你會堅持六個月還是兩年？

Or at the end of the afternoon, do you see it's a dead end and abandon it?

還是到了下午，你發現這是一條死衚衕，就放棄了？

The danger is that sometimes one works on it for six months, when you should have left it after the first hour.

危險的是，有時一個人工作了六個月，而你本應在第一小時後就離開它。

But it's giving it the benefit of the doubt.

不過，這也算是疑罪從無吧。

It's not judging it in advance.

這不是提前判斷。

It's a believing that there are no good or bad ideas, that the best ideas can be really bad, and a really bad, stupid starting point can be as good as a philosophical essay.

它相信想法沒有好壞之分，最好的想法也可能非常糟糕，一個非常糟糕、愚蠢的出發點也可能像一篇哲學論文一樣好。

With every project, good or bad, there's periods when you wake up at four in the morning knowing this is a disaster, and you should never have done it.

每個項目，無論好壞，都會有那麼一段時間，你會在凌晨四點醒來，意識到這是一場災難，你根本不應該這樣做。

And so I've understood that that's not a guide of it being either a good or a bad project.

是以我明白，這並不代表項目的好壞。

That's an occupational hazard.

這是職業病。

It's like a health disease if you're going to be an artist.

如果你想成為一名藝術家，這就像是一種健康疾病。

Often only at the end.

往往只是在最後。

Often only a year afterwards.

通常只在一年之後。

You're very close.

你們很接近了

When you're very close to something, it's very protective of it, and you view it in the best way, you give it the best chance, particularly if there are other performers or other people involved.

當你非常親近一件事物時，你會非常保護它，以最好的方式去看待它，給它最好的機會，尤其是在有其他表演者或其他人参與的情況下。

It takes a distance to say, all right, we spent six months on it, and really there were fundamental flaws in it, which I'd certainly say about some of the work that I've done, without a doubt.

好吧，我們花了六個月的時間來完成它，但它確實存在一些根本性的缺陷。

But I wouldn't have said it at the time it was being made.

但在製作時我不會這麼說。

There's always something at risk, and the risk is that you're spending a huge amount of physical energy, time, days, money, resources, other people's enthusiasm, which can be misplaced.

總有一些東西處於危險之中，這種危險就是你要花費大量的體力、時間、天數、金錢、資源和他人的熱情，而這些都可能是錯位的。

And so there's a risk of betraying other people's confidence.

這樣就有可能辜負別人的信任。

There's a risk of being flattered by other people enough into not realizing when something doesn't work and believing the voices coming in.

被他人奉承的風險在於，當一件事行不通時，你會意識不到，並相信別人的聲音。

But ultimately, I suppose long term it has to do, does the piece work for the collaborators you're working with?

但歸根結底，我認為從長遠來看，還是要看作品是否適合與你合作的人？

And more than that, are there other people outside the room of collaboration for whom it has an echo, an interest?

更重要的是，在協作室之外，是否還有其他人對協作室產生了共鳴和興趣？

You do a piece that's beautiful for you, but if it has no resonance for anyone else, that's complicated.

你做的作品對你來說很美，但如果對其他人來說沒有共鳴，那就複雜了。

It's often the case that it has strong resonances for some people, and other people see it just as being a mistake from A to Z.

通常的情況是，有些人對它有強烈的共鳴，而另一些人則認為它只是一個從頭到尾的錯誤。

And then one has to give it time and see how it sediments in one's head.

然後，人們必須給它時間，看看它是如何在腦海中沉澱的。

And the work is often completed before I'm satisfied.

而工作往往在我滿意之前就已經完成了。

And there's a balance.

這就是平衡。

Sometimes I think, all right, I've done this work, I should really go back and spend six months fixing it.

有時我會想，好吧，我已經完成了這項工作，我真的應該回去花六個月的時間把它修好。

And then I usually think, no, in six months I can do a whole new project.

然後我通常會想，不，六個月後我可以做一個全新的項目。

This will be as it is, with its faults, with its incompletion.

這將是它的本來面目，帶著它的缺點，帶著它的不完整。

There is a mood, which I think partly has to do with the imperfect erasure, which leaves a great trace on the paper, with the darkness of charcoal, with those kinds of elements.

有一種情緒，我認為部分與不完美的擦除有關，它在紙上留下了巨大的痕跡，與木炭的黑暗有關，與這些元素有關。

But there has also been an exhibition of my work that put it together with some of the graphics of Goya and films of Buster Keaton, that was looking at a different kind of comedic trajectory also.

但也有一個我的作品展，將我的作品與戈雅的一些圖形和巴斯特-基頓的電影放在一起，也是在尋找一種不同的喜劇軌跡。

Which was a surprise for me, I must say.

我必須說，這對我來說是個驚喜。

I hadn't expected it.

我沒想到會這樣。

But it set in train a whole lot of films that were closer to Buster Keaton and then George

但是，它卻引發了一大批更接近巴斯特-基頓（Buster Keaton）的電影，然後是喬治-布魯斯（George