Name: 美國聯邦貿易委員會主席莉娜-汗的離職訪談：挑戰人工智能、大科技及更多 | 華爾街日報 (FTC Chair Lina Khan’s Exit Interview: Challenging AI, Big Tech and More | WSJ)
Uploaded: 2025-01-15T08:50:03.000Z
Duration: 9 min 1 s

Lina Khan, thank you so much for joining us.

麗娜-汗，非常感謝您接受我們的採訪。

Okay, so you're winding up your final days as chair of the Federal Trade Commission.

好了，你作為聯邦貿易委員會主席的最後幾天就要結束了。

Technology companies, obviously, have grown enormously big in the past few years.

顯然，科技公司在過去幾年中已經發展得非常龐大。

Do you think that you've been able to adjust the monopoly powers of these companies in a way that does protect Americans or limit these companies' scope?

您認為您是否能夠以保護美國人或限制這些公司影響範圍的方式調整這些公司的壟斷權力？

The Justice Department got an important win last year with a court holding that Google had violated the antitrust laws.

司法部去年取得了一場重要勝利，法院認定谷歌違反了反壟斷法。

We have a Facebook case that's going to trial this spring, a big monopolization lawsuit against Amazon that's going to trial in fall of 2026.

今年春天，我們將審理一起 Facebook 案件，2026 年秋天，我們將審理一起針對亞馬遜的大型壟斷訴訟。

But certainly what we heard from, you know, those in Silicon Valley and executives was that there was greater awareness that there was now a cop on the beat.

當然，我們從硅谷和高管們那裡聽到的是，他們更加意識到現在有警察在巡邏。

Maybe it's completely a coincidence or maybe not, but people tied to those companies have been pouring money into the inauguration of President Trump.

也許完全是巧合，也許不是，但與這些公司有關聯的人一直在為特朗普總統的就職典禮投入資金。

Do you think there might be any expectation from these companies that they might get a better shake out of a future FTC and that might be why they're trying to cozy up to incoming President Trump?

你認為這些公司是否期望從未來的聯邦貿易委員會中獲得更好的待遇，這可能是他們試圖討好即將上任的特朗普總統的原因嗎？

I can't speak to what anybody's specific intentions are, but it's true that the FTC has received resounding wins in court.

我不能說任何人的具體意圖是什麼，但聯邦貿易委員會確實在法庭上贏得了酣暢淋漓的勝利。

So, of course, if you recognize that a particular lawsuit and a finding of liability could have major ramifications if you're not allowed to engage in those types of illegal practices, of course there would be an effort to see, can we settle on the cheap here?

因此，若企業意識到某項訴訟及其責任認定可能導致重大後果——尤其是在他們不再被允許從事某些非法行為的情況下——那麼他們自然會試圖尋求低成本的和解方式。

On the Microsoft Activision case, critics said, you know, these weren't natural competitors, so why is the FTC getting involved here?

關於微軟動視一案，批評者說，你知道，他們不是天然的競爭對手，為什麼聯邦貿易委員會要插手？

Do you think that that kind of opened the agency up to a lot of external criticism that you guys were intervening in cases that maybe were outside your traditional remit?

你是否認為這讓該機構受到了很多外界的責備，認為你們干預的案件可能超出了你們的傳統職權範圍？

So that case in particular, that litigation is still ongoing.

是以，該案件的訴訟仍在進行中。

But you raise an important question more generally, which is, are the only mergers that are illegal those that are between direct competitors?

但你提出了一個更普遍的重要問題，即是否只有直接競爭對手之間的兼併才是非法的？

Or do we think that mergers between different parts of the supply chain can also pose legal concern?

或者，我們是否認為供應鏈不同部分之間的合併也會帶來法律問題？

And you're right that for several decades, that was a view that vertical mergers in particular, or mergers between companies that are adjacent in a supply chain, there was a view that those were presumptively legal and maybe even competitively benign.

你說得沒錯，幾十年來，人們一直認為縱向兼併，特別是供應鏈上相鄰公司之間的兼併是合法的，甚至可能是良性競爭的。

The FTC has taken action against those vertical deals and successfully blocked a half a dozen.

美國聯邦貿易委員會已對這些縱向交易採取行動，併成功阻止了半打縱向交易。

So you've been studying these issues for a long time.

這麼說，你已經研究這些問題很久了。

I wonder where you think we are in the span of history in terms of monopolies.

我很好奇，你認為我們現在在壟斷的歷史進程中處於什麼位置？

Do you think it's better now in terms of the government's ability to prevent them?

您認為現在政府的防範能力是否有所提高？

Or do you think the rise of these technology companies has made it hard to really do the things that the government might've wanted to do in the past?

還是說，你認為這些科技公司的崛起讓政府很難真正做到過去可能想做的事情？

Well, the FTC was created during the backdrop of the Gilded Age and a real concern about industrial trusts and the robber barons and how these monopolies had come to wield just extraordinarily economic power, but also political power.

聯邦貿易委員會是在鍍金時代背景下成立的，當時人們真正關注的是工業信託和強盜大亨，以及這些壟斷企業是如何掌握超乎尋常的經濟權力和政治權力的。

I think we're similarly at a moment where people recognize that when you have unchecked corporate power and unchecked monopoly power, that harms communities across America.

我認為，我們同樣處於這樣一個時刻：人們認識到，當你擁有不受制約的企業權力和不受制約的壟斷權力時，就會對全美的社區造成傷害。

It means people are paying more, making less.

這意味著人們付出的更多，賺得更少。

我們的供應鏈抗風險能力較弱。

Small businesses, startups have less of an opportunity to get a fair shake.

小企業、初創企業獲得公平待遇的機會較少。

And ultimately our democracy is more fragile.

When I would hear, especially in the run-up to the election, when I would hear from CEOs and business executives, your name would come up a lot.

當我聽到，尤其是在大選前夕，當我聽到首席執行官和企業高管的發言時，你的名字會經常出現。

I never heard of an FTC chair being known around the country as much as you were.

我從來沒聽說過聯邦貿易委員會主席能像您一樣聞名全國。

Democrats and Republicans, they were critical.

民主黨人和共和黨人都提出了責備。

Did you hear that kind of feedback and how did you kind of process it and factor it into your leadership?

你聽到過這樣的反饋嗎？你是如何處理這些反饋並將其納入你的領導力的？

So I've made it a big priority to open up the agency and make sure we're getting feedback and input from all across the country, be it farmers in Iowa, you know, founders in Silicon Valley or pharmacists in Kansas City, to understand, you know, what are the economic challenges that they're facing?

是以，我將開放該機構並確保我們從全國各地獲得反饋和意見作為一項重要優先事項，無論是愛荷華州的農民、硅谷的創始人還是堪薩斯城的藥劑師，我們都要了解他們所面臨的經濟挑戰是什麼？

From their perspective, do we have markets that are fair and honest and competitive or are there some problems there?

從他們的角度看，我們的市場是公平、誠實和有競爭力的，還是存在一些問題？

And across the board, what I heard from them was, we need more vicarious enforcement.

整體而言，我從他們那裡聽到的是，我們需要更多的替代執法。

I mean, not once did I hear, well, the answer to our challenges is more monopolization or more consolidation and, you know, less antitrust enforcement.

我的意思是，我沒有一次聽到過這樣的話，好吧，應對我們挑戰的答案是更多的壟斷或更多的合併，你知道，更少的反托拉斯執法。

I think there's a real recognition that when you don't have that type of fair and honest competition, people lose out.

我認為，人們已經真正認識到，如果沒有這種公平、誠實的競爭，人們就會失去機會。

Was there any point in 2024 before the election when Democrats or the White House said, can you just back off a little bit and give us some space, you know, stop kind of creating so much fury in Silicon Valley or across the business community?

2024 年大選之前，民主黨人或白宮是否說過，你們能不能退後一點，給我們一些空間，你知道，不要在硅谷或整個商界製造那麼多憤怒？

No, the FTC is an independent agency and, you know, we've worked closely with government partners when appropriate, but we enforce the law without fear or favor and based on the facts.

不，聯邦貿易委員會是一個獨立的機構，你知道，我們在適當的時候會與政府合作伙伴密切合作，但我們執法時不會有恐懼或偏袒，而是以事實為依據。

What would you say was kind of your proudest moment as FTC chair?

作為 FTC 主席，您最自豪的時刻是什麼？

Was there a case that you felt like really reflected your, you know, long-held beliefs about antitrust enforcement?

是否有一個案例讓你覺得真正反映了你對反壟斷執法的長期信念？

We just won a big case against the Kroger Albertsons merger, which has now been abandoned.

我們剛剛打贏了一場反對 Kroger Albertsons 合併案的大官司，該案現已被放棄。

That would have been the largest supermarket merger in U.S. history.

這將是美國曆史上最大的超市合併案。

I was invited to listening sessions across the country in places like Phoenix, Las Vegas, Denver.

我應邀參加了全國各地的聽證會，如鳳凰城、拉斯維加斯、丹佛等地。

Communities were really worried about what would happen to grocery prices and to grocery jobs if this deal were allowed to go through.

各社區都非常擔心，如果這項交易得以通過，食品雜貨價格和食品雜貨工作崗位會發生什麼變化。

We got an opinion that fully vindicates the FTC's approach to rejecting risky fixes and flimsy promises.

我們得到了一份意見書，該意見書充分證明了聯邦貿易委員會拒絕接受有風險的修復和不可靠承諾的做法。

In this case, we'd also alleged that the deal harmed labor markets illegally and the court advanced the analysis on that front as well.

在本案中，我們還指控該交易非法損害了勞動力市場，法院也推進了這方面的分析。

You've written about and talked about the need to regulate artificial intelligence and I wonder if there's lessons learned from the rapid growth of big tech where if you don't kind of acknowledge and address something early, it might, you know, be too little too late.

你曾撰文談到需要對人工智能進行監管，我想知道是否有從大型科技公司的快速發展中吸取的教訓，如果你不及早承認和解決某些問題，你知道，就可能為時已晚。

I think one of the lessons from Web 2.0 has been that these moments of technological transition can be incredibly important inflection points where new arrivals have been opening it to come into the market and displace some of the old giants.

我認為，Web 2.0 給我們帶來的一個啟示是，技術轉型期可能是一個非常重要的拐點，在這個拐點上，新來者已經開始進入市場，並取代了一些老牌巨頭。

But these are also moments where those giants may panic and recognize that they face a major competitive risk and then resort to illegal monopolization, illegal acquisitions.

但在這些時刻，這些巨頭也可能會驚慌失措，認識到自己面臨著重大的競爭風險，然後訴諸非法壟斷、非法收購。

And so these technological inflection moments are ones where enforcers have to be especially vigilant and that's the approach we've been bringing.

是以，在這些技術拐點時刻，執法者必須特別警惕，這也是我們一直採取的方法。

This is one I heard a lot about from friends.

這是我經常從朋友那裡聽說的。

A range of businesses, hairdressers, a whole bunch of people encounter this kind of clause in some of their contracts.

很多企業、理髮店、很多人在某些合同中都會遇到這樣的條款。

You guys tried to take a step on this and it was knocked down in court.

你們試圖在這方面邁出一步，但在法庭上被否決了。

I wonder if you could tell me a little bit about the lessons you learned from that and also the feedback you got on that rule from around the country.

我想知道你是否能告訴我一點你從中吸取的教訓，以及你從全國各地得到的對該規則的反饋。

So non-competes, as you noted, have proliferated beyond the boardroom.

正如你所指出的，競業禁止條款如今已不再侷限於董事會層級，而是廣泛蔓延至其他領域。」

So it's not just the C-suite that may be bound by them, but security guards, janitors, people across income levels, across professions.

是以，受其約束的可能不僅僅是首席執行官，還有保全、清潔工、不同收入水平和不同職業的人。

When we proposed this rule to eliminate non-competes, we got 26,000 comments from across the country.

當我們提出取消競業禁止的規定時，我們收到了來自全國各地的 26,000 份意見。

The stories that we heard were devastating.

我們聽到的故事都是毀滅性的。

I mean, we heard from a bartender in Florida about how she was sexually harassed at her job, decided to go get a job at a different restaurant and got hit with a lawsuit for tens of thousands of dollars.

我的意思是，我們從佛羅里達州的一名酒保那裡聽說了她是如何在工作中受到性騷擾的，她決定去另一家餐廳找工作，結果卻惹上了一場數萬美元的官司。

And so she was facing a choice between continuing to be subjected to sexual harassment or facing financial ruin.

是以，她面臨著一個選擇，要麼繼續遭受性騷擾，要麼面臨經濟破產。

These non-competes can just be so detrimental to people's lives, and they're also bad for competition.

這些競業禁止條款對人們的生活有害無益，也不利於競爭。

I mean, these are literally called non-competes.

我的意思是，這些字面意思就叫非競爭協議。

We think we're right on the law and hope we'll be able to prevail.

我們認為我們在法律上是正確的，希望我們能夠勝訴。

Do you think you could have tailored the proposal a little bit differently to make it a little more legally indestructible, perhaps?

您認為您是否可以對提案進行稍微不同的調整，使其在法律上更加堅不可摧？

So we tailored the final rule where senior executives, the rule would only apply to prospectively, but existing non-competes could stay in place.

因此，我們針對高階主管調整了最終規則——該規則僅適用於未來的新約定，但現有的競業禁止協議則可以繼續有效。

And so the revised rule was ultimately narrower than what we had initially proposed.

是以，修訂後的規則最終比我們最初提議的範圍更窄。

You know, some of the challenges that have been filed in court are taking aim at the FTC's ability to do these types of rules to begin with.

要知道，已經向法院提出的一些質疑是針對聯邦貿易委員會制定這類規則的能力的。

And so, you know, it's not clear to me that having said, well, only a subset of workers should get the protection from these rules rather than workers across the board would have changed it.

是以，你知道，我並不清楚，如果說，只有一部分工人應該得到這些規則的保護，而不是讓所有工人都得到這些規則的保護，是否就能改變現狀。

Do you expect a lot more M&A activity in a couple months once you leave and there's a new chair of the FTC?

你是否預計，一旦你離開，幾個月後聯邦貿易委員會的新主席上任，會有更多的併購活動？

Look, I completely understand that deal makers, you know, want antitrust cops to go away and to stop scrutinizing closely mergers and acquisitions.

聽著，我完全理解，交易商們希望反壟斷警察消失，停止對併購的嚴密審查。

And it's been vindicating to hear that the FTC's approach had had a market impact and was deterring illegal deals.

當聽到聯邦貿易委員會的做法對市場產生了影響並阻止了非法交易時，我感到很欣慰。

 So I hope that we won't see a backsliding there.

是以，我希望我們不會看到這方面的倒退。