Yeah, the findings that I think are overlooked tremendously are the following experiment.

是的，我認為被嚴重忽視的發現是下面的實驗。

There's an experiment in animals where a rat is given the opportunity to run on a treadmill and rats and rodents of all kinds love running on treadmills.

有一個動物實驗，讓老鼠在跑步機上跑步，老鼠和各種齧齒類動物都喜歡在跑步機上跑步。

You know, there are these interesting, we'll see who catches this fly first.

你知道，有一些有趣的東西，我們來看看誰先抓住這隻蒼蠅。

Yeah, I'm ready, man.

我準備好了

Yeah.

是啊

I think, you know, there's even a study from Hoppy Hofstra's lab at Harvard that showed if you put wheels, running wheels in fields, that rodents will run there in the middle of the night and run on them.

哈佛大學霍皮-霍夫斯特拉實驗室的一項研究表明，如果在田野裡放上輪子，跑步的輪子，齧齒動物會在半夜跑到那裡，在輪子上跑步。

That's how insanely obsessed with running.

這就是對跑步的瘋狂痴迷。

They're just energetic, they want to go.

他們只是精力充沛，他們想去。

There's something rewarding about it for them.

這對他們來說是一種獎勵。

But in any event, it lowers their blood pressure, it leads to improvements in a number of metrics that you expect.

但無論如何，這都能降低他們的血壓，並改善一系列你所期望的指標。

And you see the same thing in humans, right, who run on a treadmill or run outdoors or swim in cardiovascular exercise.

人類在跑步機上跑步、戶外跑步或游泳進行心血管鍛鍊時，也會出現同樣的情況。

Okay, well, Sapolsky and I love to talk about an experiment where they took two different cages with animals.

好吧，薩波爾斯基和我很喜歡談論一個實驗 他們把動物關在兩個不同的籠子裡

One is running voluntarily, but then that running wheel is tethered to a running wheel in another cage that encloses an animal, forces it to run every time the other one runs.

其中一個是自願奔跑的，但這個奔跑的輪子被拴在另一個籠子裡的奔跑的輪子上，這個籠子裡關著一隻動物，每當另一個動物奔跑時，它就被迫奔跑。

So forced exercise versus voluntary exercise.

是以，強迫運動與自願運動是截然不同的。

And the takeaway is very straightforward.

這其中的啟示非常直接。

Voluntary exercise leads to all sorts of improvements in health metrics, resting heart rate, blood pressure, blood glucose, resting blood glucose, et cetera, waking blood glucose.

自願運動會帶來各種健康指標的改善，靜息心率、血壓、血糖、靜息血糖等等，還有清醒血糖。

The animal that's forced to exercise, you see the opposite, right?

被迫運動的動物，你看到的是相反的情況，對嗎？

So it's not exercise per se, it's something about being forced to exercise causes decrements in a number of health metrics.

是以，這並不是運動本身的問題，而是被迫運動會導致一些健康指標下降。

And you see the same thing in humans.

人類也是如此。

So what's wild is my colleague, Dr. Ali Crum, Department of Psychology at Stanford has done these beautiful experiments on mindset and belief.

我的同事，斯坦福大學心理學系的阿里-克魯姆博士做了一些關於心態和信念的漂亮實驗。

These are not placebo effects.

這些不是安慰劑效應。

And what she's shown in a just absolutely spectacular way is that if people watch a short video about all the ways in which stress can really diminish your health, well then indeed stress diminishes their health.

她以一種絕對驚人的方式證明，如果人們觀看了一個關於壓力真的會損害健康的所有方式的簡短視頻，那麼壓力確實會損害他們的健康。

Whereas if a separate group watches a factual, also five minute, also factual tutorial on all the ways that stress can enhance performance by harnessing your ability to focus, memory formation, et cetera, all of which is true, that's indeed what you see.

而如果另外一組人觀看一個五分鐘的事實性教程，講述壓力可以通過利用你的專注力、記憶形成等能力來提高表現，所有這些都是真實的，這就是你所看到的。

Can I give you my favorite one that I learned about over the last year?

我能給你們講講我去年學到的最喜歡的內容嗎？

So the Boston Marathon bombing, 2012, about 10 years ago, 2016 maybe.

波士頓馬拉松爆炸案，2012 年，大約 10 年前，也許是 2016 年。

Anyway, Boston Marathon bombing, a study was done comparing people who had been at the actual marathon while the bomb had gone off and people who had watched 90 minutes or more of news coverage about it.

在波士頓馬拉松爆炸案中，有一項研究比較了在炸彈爆炸時參加馬拉松比賽的人和觀看了 90 分鐘或更長時間相關新聞報道的人。

And the people who watched 90 minutes or more of news coverage about it showed a greater stress response than the people who literally lived through it.

而觀看了 90 分鐘或更長時間相關新聞報道的人比真正經歷過這一事件的人表現出更大的壓力反應。

IAN Interesting.

IAN 有意思。

Interesting.

有意思

Yeah.

是啊

The mindset and belief effects are absolutely extraordinary and very real, right?

心態和信念的影響絕對非同一般，而且非常真實，不是嗎？

I mean, I think recently I've been reading and researching a lot about and did a podcast on tenacity and willpower.

我的意思是，我想最近我一直在閱讀和研究很多關於堅韌和意志力的內容，並做了一個關於堅韌和意志力的播客。

And there was this idea early on from Baumeister and colleagues that willpower is a They showed that replenishing glucose in between hard tasks could restore willpower.

鮑邁斯特及其同事很早就提出了這樣一個觀點，即意志力是一種在艱鉅任務之間補充葡萄糖可以恢復意志力的能力。

IAN They showed that, was it juries or judges that were low in blood glucose were more likely to give harsher sentences, stuff like this.

IAN 他們發現，血糖過低的陪審團或法官更有可能做出更嚴厲的判決，諸如此類。

CARL Yeah, it sort of wicked out to a number of naturalistic situations and it made good sense.

CARL 是的，這在很多自然情況下都很有意義。

And then my colleague, Carol Dweck, also in the psychology department at Stanford, most famously known for her work on growth mindset, did an experiment in which they essentially asked whether or not tenacity and willpower are limited in terms of being some sort of resource and also whether or not it was somehow linked to glucose availability fuel in the brain and body and found that if people thought or were told that excuse me, willpower was a limited resource, that's indeed what they observed experimentally, but that if they were taught or were told that willpower is unlimited and divorced from glucose levels, well, then that's exactly what you saw.

我的同事卡羅爾-德韋克（Carol Dweck）也是斯坦福大學心理學系的，她因研究成長型思維模式而聞名，她曾做過一個實驗，問人們韌性和意志力是否是有限的，是否是某種資源，是否與大腦和身體中的葡萄糖有某種聯繫，結果發現，如果人們認為或被告知，對不起，意志力是有限的資源、他們發現，如果人們認為或被告知意志力是一種有限的資源，這確實是他們在實驗中觀察到的，但如果他們被教導或被告知意志力是無限的，與葡萄糖水準無關，那麼，這正是你所看到的。

IAN So you're saying that learning about ego depletion and believing that willpower is a limited resource is an information hazard that is self-fulfilling.

IAN 所以你的意思是，瞭解自我耗竭並相信意志力是一種有限的資源，是一種自我實現的資訊危害。

CARL Potentially.

有可能

Now Baumeister showed himself to be pretty determined, went and countered the Dweck counter by showing that if indeed, if there's a hard task followed by a hard task, then your beliefs about willpower can impact your performance on the second task.

現在，鮑邁斯特顯示出了自己相當的決心，去反駁德韋克的反駁，證明如果確實有一項艱鉅的任務緊接著一項艱鉅的任務，那麼你對意志力的信念就會影響你在第二項任務中的表現。

So Dweck, AKA Dweck is right.

所以，又名德韋克的德韋克是對的。

But that if you have a hard task, hard task, and then another hard task, so back to back to back tasks or more, which is a lot of what life is like, well, then it seems that the willpower is a limited resource and glucose supporting willpower theory holds up a bit better.

但是，如果你有一項艱鉅的任務、一項艱鉅的任務，然後又有另一項艱鉅的任務，這樣背靠背的任務或更多，這就是生活中的很多情況，那麼，似乎意志力就是一種有限的資源，葡萄糖支持意志力理論就會更好一些。

IAN What have you come to believe about the difference between willpower and motivation and discipline?

IAN 關於意志力、動機和紀律之間的區別，你有什麼看法？

How do kind of all of these fit together in your mind?

在你心目中，這些東西是如何組合在一起的？

CARL Yeah, so willpower and tenacity are related to motivation, but they're not quite the same.

是的，意志力和韌性與動機有關，但兩者並不完全相同。

I think we should think of motivation as the verb state that moves us from, let's just say apathy to tenacity.

我認為，我們應該把 "動機 "看作是一種動詞狀態，讓我們從冷漠走向堅韌。

Okay, so it's the verb function that moves us along that continuum, apathy at one end, tenacity and willpower, strong exertion of willpower at the other end.

好的，所以是動詞功能讓我們沿著這個連續統一體前進，一端是冷漠，另一端是堅韌和意志力，是意志力的強力發揮。

One of the most interesting structures in the entire nervous system is one that gets very little coverage, unfortunately.

遺憾的是，整個神經系統中最有趣的結構之一卻很少被報道。

In fact, most neuroscientists aren't aware of what its function is, and it's called the AMCC, which is the anterior mid-cingulate cortex.

事實上，大多數神經科學家都不知道它的功能是什麼，它被稱為 AMCC，即前扣帶回中皮層。

You have one on each side of the brain.

大腦兩側各有一個。

The name isn't really important, but we want to, to the credit of the structure, we should name it the AMCC.

名稱其實並不重要，但我們希望，為了結構的榮譽，我們應該將其命名為 AMCC。

The AMCC receives inputs from a lot of interesting brain areas related to reward, related to autonomic function, so how alert or sleepy we are, to prediction, to prediction error.

AMCC 接收來自許多有趣腦區的輸入，這些腦區與獎賞、自律神經功能有關，是以與我們的警覺性或睏倦程度、預測、預測誤差有關。

It's a hub for many, many inputs and outputs, hormone systems, et cetera.

它是很多很多輸入和輸出、激素系統等的樞紐。

Beautiful experiments done by my colleague, Joe Parvizi at Stanford have shown that if you stimulate this brain area, a tiny little brain area in a human, they immediately feel as if some challenge is impending, and they're going to meet that challenge.

我的同事、斯坦福大學的喬-帕爾維茲（Joe Parvizi）所做的漂亮實驗表明，如果你刺激人類的這個腦區，一個很小的腦區，他們就會立即感覺到某種挑戰即將來臨，而他們將迎接這一挑戰。

It's a forward center of mass against challenge response.

這是一種針對挑戰反應的前置質心。

This has been seen in subjects.

這一點在實驗對象身上也有所體現。

They do controls where they then tell them they're stimulating, but they're not actually stimulating.

他們會做一些控制措施，然後告訴他們這些措施很刺激，但實際上並不刺激。

And they're like, I don't feel anything.

他們說，我什麼都感覺不到。

You can turn on and off tenacity and willpower.

你可以開啟或關閉韌性和意志力。

So there's literally a hub for this.

是以，這裡簡直就是一個樞紐。

Now here's where it gets really interesting.

這才是真正有趣的地方。

I'm going to list off a bunch of peer-reviewed published results in rapid sequence.

下面，我將依次快速列出一堆經同行評議後發表的成果。

And I'm happy to point out the substantiation for this or the references.

我很樂意指出這方面的證據或參考文獻。

Okay.

好的

Individuals that are dieting or resisting some sort of tempting behavior and are successful in doing that, the size and activity in their AMCC goes up over time and the structure gets bigger.

節食或抵制某種誘惑行為並取得成功的人，其 AMCC 的大小和活性會隨著時間的推移而增加，結構也會變大。

Dieters who fail, flat or downward trajectory of the size and activation of the AMCC.

減肥失敗的人，AMCC 的大小和激活軌跡持平或下降。

This can be taken too far.

這可能會走得太遠。

Individuals with anorexia nervosa, the most deadly of all psychiatric disorders where a self-deprivation of food activates excessive reward.

神經性厭食症是所有精神疾病中最致命的一種，自我剝奪食物會激活過度獎賞。

There's this kind of loop of reward.

這就是獎勵的循環。

Their AMCCs are significantly greater size than others.

它們的 AMCC 規模明顯大於其他國家。

So there's, you know, this can be taken too far.

所以，你知道，這可能會走得太遠。

Super agers, which is a bit of a misnomer because these individuals are people who maintain healthy cognitive function, similar to people in their twenties and thirties into their seventies, eighties, and nineties, their AMCC maintains or increases in size into their later years.

超級老齡人（Super agers）這個詞有點名不副實，因為這些人的認知功能保持健康，與二三十歲到七八九十歲的人類似，他們的 AMCC 在晚年仍能保持或增加。

Typical agers, the size of, we always hear that you lose brain mass across your lifespan.

我們總是聽說，人的一生中大腦的體積會不斷減少。

Well, most of it is from the AMCC and beautifully.

嗯，大部分是 AMCC 提供的，很漂亮。

And this is two of my favorite results that really bring this around to a protocol or a takeaway.

這是我最喜歡的兩個結果，它們真正地把這個問題帶到了協議或外賣中。

If people are given an easy task, the AMCC isn't activated.

如果給人們的任務很輕鬆，那麼 AMCC 就不會被激活。

If they're given a hard task, in particular, a hard task, physical or cognitive that they really don't want to do, the AMCC levels of activity go through the roof.

如果給他們佈置一項艱鉅的任務，特別是一項他們真的不想做的艱鉅的體力或認知任務，AMCC 的活動水準就會達到頂峰。

And here's, what's really cool.

最酷的是

They gave aging, what's, you know, people age 60 to 79, the task of adding three hours extra per week of cardiovascular exercise.

他們讓 60 至 79 歲的老年人每週額外增加三個小時的心血管鍛鍊。

Now that's a lot, right?

很多吧？

Three, one hour, they call them aerobic classes, but getting their heart rate up to about 65, 70% of maximum.

三節課，一小時，他們稱之為有氧課程，但要讓他們的心率達到最大值的 65% 或 70%。

So it's getting into like zone three area.

所以現在已經進入第三區了。

Yeah.

是啊

People can look up zone three, but you nailed it.

大家可以查查三區，但你說得很對。

Zone three, the size of their AMCC increased across that six month protocol and offset the normal age-related decline in this, in this brain area in terms of its size.

在第三區，AMCC 的大小在 6 個月的方案中有所增加，抵消了與年齡有關的正常衰退。

The theory that's starting to emerge is that the AMCC isn't just about tenacity and willpower to push through hard things, that it may actually be related to one's will to live, one's will to continue living.

目前開始出現的一種理論認為，AMCC 不僅僅是關於克服困難的堅韌和意志力，它實際上可能與一個人的生存意志、繼續生存的意志有關。

And I think this is, these are some of the most important results.

我認為這是一些最重要的成果。

By the way, I didn't participate in any of the research that I just described.

順便說一句，我沒有參與我剛才描述的任何研究。

I spent a lot of time with that literature, but I think it's so important.

我花了很多時間研究這些文獻，但我認為它非常重要。

I mean, we hear about the amygdala, the hippocampus, the prefrontal cortex, all of very important brain structures, but if nothing else, hopefully this conversation put the AMCC on the map.

我的意思是，我們聽說過杏仁核、海馬體、前額葉皮層，所有這些都是非常重要的大腦結構，但如果不出意外的話，希望這次談話能讓我們瞭解 AMCC。

The one that literally could create your will to live is the one that's being overlooked a little bit.

真正能激發你的求生意志的，是那個有點被忽視的人。

And it can be, and what's interesting about this structure is that it's involved in generating tenacity and willpower for all things, not just for one situation.

這種結構的有趣之處在於，它能讓人對所有事情都產生堅韌不拔的意志力，而不僅僅是在一種情況下。

And what's really wonderful, I think about the research literature on this is it's so clear what we need to do.

我認為，這方面研究文獻的精彩之處在於，它非常清楚我們需要做什麼。

We need to do things.

我們需要做事。

Let's say like me, you're a person who weightlifting and you love running.

比方說，你和我一樣，是一個喜歡舉重和跑步的人。

I love those two activities.

我喜歡這兩項活動。

Well, guess what?

你猜怎麼著？

Those activities, even if they're hard, like a hard run that I'm really enjoying or some hard sets in the gym, not going to increase the size or activity of the AMCC.

這些活動，即使是艱苦的，比如我非常喜歡的艱苦跑步，或者在健身房裡做幾組艱苦的動作，也不會增加 AMCC 的體積或活動量。

People love to over romanticize the utility of those final two reps.

人們總喜歡把最後兩個動作的作用浪漫化。

Sure.

當然。

Okay.

好的

Pushing to failure.

推向失敗。

Great.

好極了

You know, running hard until your lungs burn.

你知道，努力奔跑，直到肺部燃燒。

Great.

好極了

But if you enjoy that, you're not increasing your amount of tenacity and willpower, at least according to the research data.

但如果你樂在其中，你的韌性和意志力就不會增加，至少根據研究數據是這樣。

What's going to do it is doing something, what I call micro sucks or macro sucks, you know?

要做到這一點，就要做一些事情，我稱之為 "微觀吮吸 "或 "宏觀吮吸"，你知道嗎？

And so micro sucks could be all the little things that you don't want to do during the day.

是以，"微吸 "可能是你白天不想做的所有小事。

Macro sucks could be the larger things, but of course, you don't want to do things that are going to damage you psychologically or physically, of course, of course, but everyone, I believe would benefit from picking a few micro sucks.

宏觀上的糟糕可能是更大的事情，當然，你也不想做那些會對你的心理或身體造成傷害的事情，當然，當然，但我相信每個人都會從挑選一些微觀上的糟糕中受益。

What are some of your micro sucks or macro sucks that you could sprinkle throughout the day?

您有哪些微觀或宏觀上的 "爛事 "可以在一天中隨處可見？

Okay.

好的

So on a household maintenance level, you know, I maintain a very clean home.

是以，在家庭維護方面，你知道，我的家非常乾淨。

I'm constantly throwing things away as well, but there are a few things like once I exceed a certain number of dishes in the sink, it becomes this, okay, I'll, I'll load the dishwasher later type thing.

我也經常把東西扔掉，但也有一些事情，比如一旦水槽裡的碗碟超過了一定數量，就會變成這樣，好吧，我等會兒再裝洗碗機。

Like a micro suck for me would be like, especially if something's been in there for a while and it's kind of gross and then you got to like work through it.

對我來說，"微吸 "就像是，尤其是如果有東西在裡面呆了一段時間，有點噁心，然後你就得像工作一樣去處理它。

And of course I try and put each dish away as, as I, you know, dirty them up.

當然，當我把每道菜弄髒的時候，我也會試著把它們收起來。

But so little things, the things that the, I really don't want to deal with that right now.

但這些小事，我現在真的不想去處理。

That's the kind of thing, those harder tasks where you have to breach some barriers, some resistance to put it into, you know, Steven Pressfield language or our friend David Goggins, right?

這種事情，那些更難的任務，你必須打破一些障礙，一些阻力，把它變成，你知道，史蒂芬-普雷斯菲爾德的語言或我們的朋友大衛-戈金斯，對不對？

You know, this idea that one has to callous the mind.

你知道，這種想法認為人必須使心靈冷酷無情。

I mean, David said that, right?

我是說，大衛說過，對嗎？

He's probably got a hypertrophied AMCC that's bigger than most people's.

他可能有一個比大多數人都大的肥大的 AMCC。

Probably.

也許吧

And, and the beauty of having a, an AMCC that's highly, you know, the micro and the macro sucks of the day, you, you have this thing, it's like an engine that you can devote to other things.

而且，擁有一個高度微觀和宏觀的 AMCC 的好處是，你有了這個東西，它就像一個引擎，你可以把它投入到其他事情中去。

So then you can devote the AMCC to other endeavors.

這樣，你就可以把 AMCC 投入到其他工作中去。

I have this thing I called email anxiety, and it's when my unread inbox reaches three figures or more.

我有一種叫做 "郵件焦慮症 "的東西，當我的未讀收件箱達到三位數或更多時，我就會感到焦慮。

And that's when it just, it kind of follows me around like a poltergeist throughout the day.

這時候，它就像一個幽靈，整天跟著我。

And that, that absolutely for me, that's probably a macro suck, you know, to get through that, it's probably three to four hours.

對我來說，這絕對是個大問題，你知道，要完成這個任務，大概需要三到四個小時。

A lot of it's scheduling.

很多都是時間安排的問題。

When's this guest coming on?

這位嘉賓什麼時候來？

I need to speak to this partner.

我需要和這位夥伴談談。

We go blah, blah, blah.

我們說啊，說啊，說啊。

So yeah, I've, I feel that.

所以，是的，我感覺到了。

What else?

還有什麼？

It's subjective, right?

這很主觀，對嗎？

I mean, what's a, what sucks is subjective.

我的意思是，什麼是 "爛"，什麼是 "爛"，是主觀的。

Someone else might love emails.

別人可能會喜歡電子郵件。

Yeah.

是啊

Someone might.

有人可能會

And, and I think that, you know, you've talked a lot on your show with various guests about, you know, when we're in too much comfort, we're not meeting our goals.

而且，我認為，你知道，你在節目中和不同的嘉賓談了很多，你知道，當我們過於安逸時，我們就無法實現我們的目標。

I love deadlines for that reason.

是以，我喜歡最後期限。

I love deadlines.

我喜歡最後期限。

I love pressure.

我喜歡壓力。

I think, I think Parkinson's law is as close to a thermodynamic of productivity as we can get.

我認為，帕金森定律是我們所能得到的最接近生產力熱力學的定律。

Do you know what I mean?

你明白我的意思嗎？

Like when you have a deadline, you will meet it.

就像你有一個最後期限，你就會遵守它。

Right.

對

If you do not have a deadline, you will manana manana until forever.

如果你沒有最後期限，你將manana manana 直到永遠。

That's right.

這就對了。

And some people I think preload the deadline by procrastinating.

我認為有些人通過拖延來預設最後期限。

And then that's what, you know, gets their activation energy to a level where they can, they can engage.

然後，你知道，這就是讓他們的激活能量達到一定水準，讓他們可以參與進來。

So I've started thinking about this a lot lately, you know, I love running, but it's interesting.

我最近經常思考這個問題，我喜歡跑步，但這很有趣。

I like to finish it my driveway and I live on a hill.

我喜歡在我的車道上完成，我住在山上。

And actually this morning I was out for a run and the gate at the end of the cul-de-sac is my sort of designated stop point.

事實上，今天早上我出去跑步，小巷盡頭的大門就是我指定的停靠點。

So it actually sucked to do the last, you know, 20 meters this morning.

所以，今天早上最後20米的成績其實很糟糕。

So there, I probably got a little bit of AMCC activation because everything was, the number of negotiations I went through when I turned up my street at the end of this run, whether or not I was going to run this extra 20 meters was ridiculous.

是以，我可能有點被 AMCC 激活了，因為當我在跑步結束後轉到我的街道時，我所經歷的一切，以及我是否要多跑這 20 米的談判次數，都是非常荒謬的。

I mean, the human brain struggling to not do this extra 20 meters.

我的意思是說，人類的大腦在掙扎著不去做這額外的 20 米。

It was so silly.

太傻了

So it's gotta, it's gotta hurt a little bit.

所以肯定會有點疼。

Again, you don't want to damage yourself, but I think in the context of for instance, cognitive learning, getting to the point where you finish something and then forcing yourself to do one little extra bit there at the end.

同樣，你也不想傷害自己，但我認為，比如在認知學習的背景下，你要完成一件事，然後強迫自己在最後多做一點。

So, you know, I, I've, I'm not looking for any credit for it, but I want to be very clear that the scientific literature doesn't call these things micro-sucks.

所以，你知道，我，我已經，我不是在尋求任何榮譽，但我想非常清楚的是，科學文獻並沒有把這些東西稱為微吸。