Name: 英國文化協會訪談史蒂芬-克拉申（Stephen Krashen），第 1 部分，共 3 頁 (British Council Interviews Stephen Krashen part 1 of 3)
Uploaded: 2024-12-23T10:12:47.000Z
Duration: 18 min 33 s

You have handouts. Today is a high-tech conference, so I brought handouts. Some of you have never seen handouts before. Okay, it's a piece of paper on both sides and it's an outline of my speech. I don't use PowerPoint. I didn't know what PowerPoint was until a year ago.

你們有講義。今天是高科技會議，所以我帶來了講義。你們有些人以前從沒見過講義。好吧，就是一張紙，正反兩面都是我的演講提綱。我不用 PowerPoint。直到一年前我才知道 PowerPoint 是什麼。

情態副詞

I thought it was a martial art. I have a black belt in PowerPoint, okay? And I notice when people use these things, one time out of four, they don't work. Isn't that true? And also with the new technology, here's one of my many comments on technology, by the time you figure out how to use it, it's obsolete. Isn't that true? Actually, I wrote a song about technology too. I should sing it to you. I just remember the first few verses. It goes like this. Hush, little baby, singing to you, Papa's gonna buy you an iPad 2. When that iPad's obsolete, Papa's gonna buy you an iPad 3. When that 3 don't work no more, Papa's gonna buy you an iPad 4. And on it goes, okay?

我還以為是國術呢我是PPT黑帶，知道嗎？我注意到當人們使用這些東西時 四次中有一次不起作用難道不是嗎？還有新技術，這是我對技術的許多評論之一，當你知道如何使用它時，它已經過時了。難道不是嗎？事實上，我也寫過一首關於技術的歌。我應該唱給你聽。我只記得前幾句歌詞是這樣的噓，小寶貝，唱給你聽 爸爸要給你買iPad2當iPad過時了 爸爸會給你買iPad 3等iPad 3不能用了 爸爸再給你買iPad 4一直這樣，好嗎？

情態助動詞 B1

I would like to thank today Oxford for getting me here, for Isil for inviting me, and for my personal bodyguard, Nafi Osmanek, who's been putting up with me and my bad jokes for the last two days. I'd like to begin by giving a very brief review of the last 40 years of my life. If you look on your handout, this is really easy to read if you're 25 years old or under, okay? Oh, I didn't mention this. Technology, yeah. Other people have mentioned this before. Thank you so much. I have a website. In California, it is a state law that you must have a website. So I have a website. It's sdcrash, and D is my middle name, David.

我要感謝今天牛津把我帶到這裡，感謝伊希爾邀請我，感謝我的貼身保鏢納菲-奧斯曼內克，這兩天他一直在忍受我和我的壞笑。首先，我想簡要回顧一下我過去 40 年的生活。如果你看一下你的講義，如果你是25歲或25歲以下，這很容易讀懂，好嗎？哦，我還沒提到這個。技術，是的。其他人之前也提到過。非常感謝我有個網站在加州，州法律規定你必須有一個網站。所以我有個網站它叫sdcrash，D是我的中間名，大衛。

I'm on Twitter. Please join me on Twitter and Facebook. On Twitter, I'm trying to catch up to Justin Bieber, okay? I'm getting close. He has how many followers does Justin Bieber have? Come on, techie people. 30. 30 million. He's number two. Number one is Lady Gaga.

我在 Twitter 上。請加入我的 Twitter 和 Facebook。在推特上，我正努力追趕賈斯汀-比伯，好嗎？我快追上了賈斯汀-比伯有多少粉絲？拜託，技術人員30.三千萬他排第二 第一是Lady Gaga He's number two.第一名是Lady Gaga Number one is Lady Gaga.

I'm going to catch up with Justin. I call him Justin. The rate I'm going in another 1,325 years, I'm confident I'm going to make it. I've been taking omega-3 fatty acids, so this is going to happen. So please join me on these things. I got into Facebook about two years ago, three years ago, and I discovered there was already a Steve Krashen fan club on Facebook. I said, oh, this is nice. There were 60 people on the fan club. I looked at the list. 30 of them were my relatives, my cousins, my nieces, and I was very thrilled with that. It was nice. So I use Facebook and Twitter very seriously. They're for getting information around, and I'm really pleased with both of them. Twitter and Facebook are underground. It's the way we get information because the media doesn't always talk about education correctly. Isn't this true? Say yes. Yes, you bet. So this is our way of getting information around. Very important. So please join me. Two views of language acquisition or development of language. There are two competing hypotheses. It is really a war between these two hypotheses, and it's a good war. The good war is because no matter who wins, we learn things. As the struggle is happening in academia, experiments back and forth, we're testing, we're learning more. The hypothesis I think is right is called... Am I doing that?

我要去找賈斯汀。我叫他賈斯汀以我現在的速度 再過1325年 我有信心能趕上他我一直在服用歐米伽3脂肪酸，所以這一定會發生。所以，請加入我的行列吧。大約兩年前或三年前，我進入了Facebook，我發現Facebook上已經有了一個史蒂夫-克拉申粉絲俱樂部。我說，哦，這太好了。粉絲俱樂部裡有60個人。我看了看名單。其中 30 人是我的親戚、表親、侄女，我對此感到非常興奮。這很好。所以我非常認真地使用 Facebook 和 Twitter。它們是用來傳遞信息的，我對它們都很滿意。推特和臉書都是地下組織。這是我們

What's happening? Oh, there's another mic in front of me? Or I'm not breathing correctly.

怎麼了？哦，我前面還有一個麥克風？或者我呼吸不暢

This is it. Okay. See, I have to start all over again. I wrote a new song. Let's see.

就是這樣好吧，看，我又得從頭開始了我寫了一首新歌讓我看看

I did that. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, my. The comprehension hypothesis says the way we acquire language, the way we develop literacy is through comprehension. When we understand what people tell us, when we understand what we read, we are acquiring the language if we understand it. The comprehension hypothesis says that the so-called skills, vocabulary, grammar, all those things, are the result of language acquisition. Making a big important point. The opposing hypothesis, the rival hypothesis, is called the skill building hypothesis.

是我乾的好的 謝謝 Okay.謝謝 - 謝謝 - Thank you.Thank you.我的天理解力假說認為我們習得語言的方式 我們發展讀寫能力的方式就是理解力當我們理解了別人告訴我們的話 當我們理解了我們讀到的東西 如果我們理解了它 我們就掌握了語言理解假說認為，所謂的技能、詞彙、文法等等，都是語言習得的結果。這是很重要的一點。與之相反的假說，即對立假說，被稱為技能培養假說。

This hypothesis says, no, the skills come first. In other words, there's a difference here in causality, in cause and effect. First, you learn your grammar. Then, you study vocabulary and you memorize it. Then, you practice it over and over. Then, someday in the distant future, you will actually be able to understand and produce language. In other words, the causality is reversed. The skill building hypothesis is delayed gratification. The comprehension hypothesis is immediate gratification. Listen to good stories, read books, have conversations, watch good movies, have a good time. The more you enjoy it, the better your acquisition will be. It means you deserve happiness now. You don't have to wait. Thanks, Chuck. It goes just right. We had worked this out a little bit. Thank you.

這個假設說，不，技能是第一位的。換句話說，這裡的因果關係、因果關係是不同的。首先，你要學習文法。然後，你學習詞彙並記住它。然後，反覆練習。然後，在遙遠的將來的某一天，你將真正能夠理解和創造語言。換句話說，因果關係是相反的。技能培養假設是延遲滿足。理解力假設是即時滿足。聽好故事，讀好書，進行對話，看好電影，享受美好時光。你越享受，你的收穫就越大。這意味著你現在就應該得到幸福。你不必等待。謝謝，查克。一切順利我們已經商量好了謝謝

The problem is the delayed gratification never comes. No one has ever acquired or developed knowledge of a language this way. It has never happened in the history of the human race.

問題是，延遲滿足永遠不會到來。從來沒有人以這種方式獲得或發展語言知識。這在人類歷史上從未發生過。

Not only that, skill building is painful. Comprehension is pleasant. The comprehension hypothesis is win-win. The skill building hypothesis is lose-lose. The problem is that for the general public, the skill building hypothesis is not a hypothesis. It's an axiom.

不僅如此，技能培養是痛苦的。而理解則是愉快的。理解假說是雙贏的。技能培養假設則是雙輸。問題是，對普通大眾而言，技能培養假設不是假設，而是公理。它是一個公理。

The general public believes this is true. All politicians believe it. If you think about, if you believe in skill building, all the things we get from our governments all over the world make perfect sense. Lots of testing, lots of discipline, make school hard, lots of homework, et cetera. But I don't think it's true. I think that the comprehension hypothesis is right. The exciting thing that happened to me 25 years ago when I read a book by Frank Smith and reading, reading is a form of comprehensible input. And that's very exciting for us. Especially one kind of reading that helps more than any other, the kind of reading that some of you did last night before you went to sleep. Reading because you want to. Reading you select yourself. Free, voluntary reading. Our research over the last 25 years shows again and again, free, voluntary reading, reading for pleasure, is the most powerful tool we have in all of language education. What the results are saying again and again, and it's again overwhelming, free, voluntary reading is the source of our reading ability, our writing ability, the ability to write respectable prose, the ability to handle complex grammatical constructions. A lot of our vocabulary, all of our educated vocabulary just about comes from reading. Most of our ability to spell, all this comes from reading. A powerful form of comprehensible input. The evidence for the comprehension hypothesis, and I'll try again to summarize 35 years into a couple of minutes here. I'll just give you a brief outline. This is in all the books and papers and articles and all that. Check out the website. By the way, I'm putting more and more stuff on the website.

普通民眾相信這是真的。所有政治家都相信這一點。如果你想一想，如果你相信技能培養，那麼我們從世界各地的政府那裡得到的所有東西都是非常有道理的。大量的考試，大量的紀律，讓學校變得艱苦，大量的家庭作業，等等。但我認為這不是真的。我認為理解假說是正確的。25年前，當我讀到弗蘭克-史密斯的一本書時，發生了一件令人興奮的事，那就是閱讀，閱讀是一種可理解的輸入形式。這讓我們非常興奮。特別是有一種閱讀比其他任何閱讀都更有幫助，那就是你們中的一些人昨晚睡覺前進行的閱讀。閱讀是因為你想閱讀。你自己選擇的閱讀。自由、自願的閱讀

The reason for this is that books are too expensive. Have you noticed that? Somebody open this for me. Thank you. Open this, yeah. I can't do it with one hand. See while I'm holding this? Great. Thank you so much. Okay. As we say, l'chaim. Cheers. Books are expensive.

原因是書太貴了。你注意到了嗎？誰幫我打開這個謝謝打開它我一隻手打不開你看我拿著這個好極了非常感謝 Thank you so much.好的正如我們所說，L'chaim。乾杯書很貴的

Journals are expensive. I've decided to give as much away as I can because nobody can afford it. I won't mention the name of the publisher, Multilingual Matters. They came out with a book about three years ago called Poverty and Education. It sold for $160 US, a hard cover. The irony escaped them. I had an article on the comprehension hypothesis in a book about comprehension and input. I wrote the paper. The book came out and it was selling for $120 US. I couldn't afford copies at author's discount. I was lucky. They sent me one. I had to beg for another one. This has got to stop. One way to stop it is to give things away. There. Should we talk about The Grateful Dead?

日記本很貴。我決定儘可能多地贈送，因為沒人買得起。我就不提出版社的名字了，Multilingual Matters。大約三年前，他們出了一本書，叫《貧困與教育》。這本書的硬皮售價為 160 美元。他們沒有意識到其中的諷刺意味。在一本關於理解和輸入的書中，我有一篇關於理解假說的文章。論文是我寫的。書出版後，售價為 120 美元。我買不起作者折扣價的書。我很幸運。他們送了我一本。我只好求他們再給我一本這種情況必須停止。停止這種現象的方法之一就是贈送東西好了我們該談談感恩而死嗎？

Yeah. They started all this. Did you know that? When The Grateful Dead were touring, this isn't in my script. I thought I'd tell you. I was inspired by the music. When The

是啊都是他們開始的你知道嗎？當 "感恩而死 "在巡演的時候 我的劇本里可沒寫這個我想我該告訴你我的靈感來自音樂當

Grateful Dead were touring, these were the days when people were copying songs and they were illegally recording them at the concerts and sharing the recordings. There was a lot of effort to stop it. The Grateful Dead decided to let it happen. They said, okay, everybody, take out your recorders. Do it. We love it. Share it with your friends. They decided they weren't going to make money on recordings. They were going to make money on touring.

感恩而死在巡演的時候，人們抄襲歌曲，在演唱會上非法錄製歌曲並分享錄音。為了阻止這種行為，人們做了很多努力。感恩而死樂隊決定任其發展。他們說，好吧，每個人，拿出你們的錄音機。就這麼做我們喜歡這樣和你的朋友們分享吧他們決定不靠錄音賺錢他們要靠巡演賺錢

As some of you know, The Grateful Dead concerts became like whole villages coming together.

正如你們中的一些人所知，"感恩而死 "音樂會就像整個村莊匯聚在一起。

They did very, very well. This is going to have to be a change. I think we are part of it in the technology world to get information across to people easily. All this stuff is in the papers and stuff on the internet.

他們做得非常非常好。這將是一場變革。我認為，在技術領域，我們是其中的一部分，可以輕鬆地向人們傳遞信息。所有這些東西都在報紙和互聯網上。

To make it briefly, we have a lot of evidence this is true. Studies that compare comprehension versus skill building. If you do it in second language, you do it beginning, you do it intermediate.

簡而言之，我們有很多證據證明這是事實。有研究將理解能力與技能培養進行了比較。如果你在第二語言中進行理解，你可以進行初級理解，也可以進行中級理解。

You look at reading studies. Kids who do whole language versus heavy drill stuff. Kids who do lots and lots of reading versus traditional instruction. Comprehensible input has won in every single one of these studies. When we look at when they're set up properly. It is never, ever lost. Experimental studies show it. Multivariate analysis, something

你看看閱讀研究。進行全語言學習的孩子與進行大量操練的孩子。大量閱讀的孩子與傳統教學的孩子。在所有這些研究中，可理解性輸入都是贏家。當我們研究這些方法是否得當時。它永遠不會輸。實驗研究表明了這一點。多變量分析

I love, shows this a lot when you do studies where statistically you can put skill building versus comprehension. Comprehension always wins. Case histories show it. I'm a big fan of case histories. Case histories are great if you have a lot of them. If you only have one, you don't know what the significant factor is. But if you do a lot of them, you see commonalities.

我很喜歡，當你做研究時，從統計學角度看，你可以把技能培養和理解能力相比較，就會發現這一點。理解能力總是勝出。案例史就說明了這一點。我是案例史的忠實粉絲。如果你有很多案例史，那就太好了。如果你只有一個，你就不知道重要因素是什麼。但如果你做了很多，你就會發現共性。

So there's overwhelming evidence. The rival hypothesis, skill building, doesn't fail once.

是以，證據確鑿。對手的假設，即技能培養，一次也沒有失敗。

It fails again and again. It can't possibly be true. One argument against it, you can't learn grammar and vocabulary one rule at a time. There's too much there. Vocabulary is a very popular example. The average native speaker of English knows between 50,000 and 150,000 words. That's not 50,000 trips to the dictionary. That's not 50,000 flash cards.

它一次又一次地失敗。這不可能是真的。一個反對的理由是，你不可能一次只學一條規則來學習文法和詞彙。這裡面有太多的東西。詞彙就是一個非常普遍的例子。以英語為母語的人平均認識 50,000 到 150,000 個單詞。這可不是 50,000 次查字典。也不是 50,000 張閃存卡。

It can't be done. Former student of mine, Victoria Rodrigo, did a study looking at Spanish speakers, first and second language. She determined, looked at vocabulary size, that many second language acquirers who read a lot had larger vocabularies than native speakers who didn't read a lot. So it's got to come from this. In fact, my feeling is that probably all of you in this room, those of you who speak English as a second language, who read a lot, which is most of the people in the room, I am sure that you have larger vocabularies in English than George W. Bush. Those of you who are offended by the political nature of my remarks, it will get worse. So not only is there too much there, it cannot be done, but the system is too complicated. We know that grammar is incredibly complicated. We know that the grammarians don't know all the rules. The people who write grammar books know fewer rules. Grammar teachers, the most fanatic, dedicated, know fewer rules. Our best students don't learn all the rules that are presented. They don't remember all the rules they've learned. So this is a, you can master maybe a tiny, tiny portion of the language.

做不到我以前的學生維多利亞-羅德里戈（Victoria Rodrigo）做過一項研究，研究對象是講西班牙語的第一語言和第二語言使用者。她通過觀察詞彙量的大小發現，許多經常閱讀的第二語言習得者的詞彙量比不經常閱讀的母語習得者要大。是以，這一定來自於此。事實上，我的感覺是，在座的各位，那些把英語作為第二語言的人，那些經常閱讀的人，也就是在座的大多數人，我敢肯定，你們的英語詞彙量比小布什還要大。如果你們因為我的發言帶有政治色彩而感到不快，情況會變得更糟。是以，不僅存在太多問題，無法完成，而且系統太複雜。我們知道

So complexity just, I think, completely wipes out skill building as a possibility. Also, it's possible to acquire language and get very good at it with no conscious knowledge at all. You can get acquisition without learning. The literature is full of cases like this.

是以，我認為，複雜性完全排除了培養技能的可能性。此外，在完全沒有有意識知識的情況下，也有可能掌握語言，並變得非常精通。你可以在不學習的情況下掌握語言。這樣的案例在文獻中比比皆是。

I'll tell you about one that I studied about 15 years ago, fascinating case. A reporter for the Los Angeles Times got in touch with me. Jerk, he didn't include me in the article when he wrote it. Gosh. Anyway, he told me, I'd like you to meet this guy in the San Fernando

我給你講一個我 15 年前研究過的有趣案例。《洛杉磯時報》的一位記者聯繫了我。混蛋，他寫文章的時候沒把我寫進去。天啊總之，他告訴我，我想讓你見見聖費爾南多的這個人

Valley in Los Angeles, kind of a suburban area. He's an immigrant from Mexico and he works in an Israeli restaurant and he's acquired Hebrew by working in the restaurant. Now that's interesting. So I went to the restaurant and I met this guy, Armando, the case of Armando.

洛杉磯的一個郊區山谷。他是來自墨西哥的移民，在一家以色列餐廳工作，通過在餐廳工作學會了希伯來語。這就有意思了。於是我去了那家餐廳，見到了這個人，阿曼多，阿曼多的案子。

He came to the United States when he was a teenager. He had maybe a fifth or sixth grade education in Spanish in Mexico. He'd been in the United States for about 10 years. His

他十幾歲時來到美國。他在墨西哥可能只接受過五、六年級的西班牙語教育。他在美國呆了大約 10 年。他的

English was good, but he said his Hebrew was better. He was not trying to be Jewish. He was not trying to be Israeli. He liked the people in the restaurant and they liked him.

他的英語很好，但他說他的希伯來語更好。他並不想成為猶太人。他並不想成為以色列人。他喜歡餐館裡的人，他們也喜歡他。

You meet these people. I met him and in about two minutes, you like him. You know the kind of person I know, just friendly, easy, kind of like us, right? Just easygoing, nice. And he told me his story. I asked him about it. I said, how did you do this? He says, well, just hanging out, listening. Did you start talking right away? No, silent period. He didn't say anything for the first year, the first two years. Gradually, one word here and there, et cetera. He made friends in the restaurant. He was integrated into the family, into the Moroccan Jewish family that owned the restaurant. In fact, when he was in an automobile accident, he was put in a local hospital. The family brought him meals three times a day while he was in the hospital. I tested his language. I had my recorder and

你會遇到這些人我見過他 兩分鐘後 你就喜歡上他了你知道我認識的那種人，友好，隨和，就像我們一樣，對吧？隨和，善良他告訴我他的故事我問他我說，你是怎麼做到的？他說，就是閒逛，傾聽。你馬上就開始說話了嗎？不，沉默期。頭一年，頭兩年，他什麼也沒說。漸漸地，這裡說一句，那裡說一句，諸如此類。他在餐廳裡交了很多朋友他融入了這個家庭，融入了擁有這家餐館的摩洛哥猶太家庭。事實上，當他出車禍時，他被送進了當地醫院。在他住院期間，這家人每天給他送三次飯。我測試了他的語言。我帶著錄音機和

I recorded him with a friend of his and I asked him to just have a conversation in Hebrew and tell me what you did yesterday. So they had a conversation. I interrupted here and there and pushed it along, but they did very well. Nice conversation. I recorded it. He sounded great to me. I'm not terrific in Hebrew, but he sounded okay. I took the recording to the Israeli consulate in Los Angeles the next day. I played it for four native speakers of Hebrew. One said, he's a native speaker. Another said, he's an immigrant, but he's really good. Another one said, he's an immigrant from Ethiopia, but he's good. A fourth one said, he's an immigrant from Morocco. He's a Moroccan family, so he got the language.

我給他和他的一個朋友錄了音，我讓他用希伯來語對話，告訴我你昨天做了什麼。於是他們進行了對話。我時不時地打斷他們的對話，催促他們繼續，但他們做得很好。很好的對話。我錄了音。我覺得他說得很好我的希伯來語不是很好，但他聽起來還不錯。第二天，我把錄音帶到以色列駐洛杉磯領事館。我放給四個以希伯來語為母語的人聽。一個人說，他是母語使用者。另一個說，他是個移民，但他真的很棒。另一個說，他是來自衣索匹亞的移民，但他很棒。第四個人說，他是來自摩洛哥的移民。他來自摩洛哥家庭，所以他能說這門語言。

Not educated, some slang, but everything was fine. He's okay. So the range was from very good to perfect. That's impressive. So then I talked to him again. I said, when you speak

沒受過教育，有些俚語，但一切都很好。他還不錯。從很好到完美都有真了不起我又跟他聊了聊我說，你說話的時候

Hebrew, do you know the rules? When you make this past tense, do you know what you're saying and you change this vowel? He says, I haven't the slightest idea of any of the rules. He has the language without attempting to, without doing the grammar. Pure acquisition, listening and integrating into the social group. These cases are not unusual. Everybody seems to know about them except us. They are the rule, not the exception.

希伯來語，你知道規則嗎？當你用這個過去式時，你知道你在說什麼嗎？ 你要改變這個元音嗎？他說，我完全不知道這些規則。他掌握了語言，卻沒有嘗試去學，也沒有做文法練習。純粹的習得、傾聽和融入社會群體。這些情況並不罕見。除了我們，每個人似乎都知道這些情況。他們是規則，而不是例外。