I'm so thrilled to be with you, Harry.

我很高興能和你在一起 哈利

I'm a huge fan of this publication, so lovely to talk to you.

我是這本刊物的忠實粉絲，很高興能與您交談。

We love to hear it.

我們喜歡聽。

So, we hear time and time again that Australia is in a housing crisis.

是以，我們一再聽到澳洲正處於住房危機之中。

What does that actually mean?

這究竟是什麼意思？

Well, what it means is that we have more or less millions of people in our country for whom housing is a life-defining challenge.

這意味著，在我國，或多或少有數百萬人的住房問題是決定他們一生的挑戰。

I'm thinking there about young people who are lining up in rental queues on a Saturday outbidding each other for a property that they may not even want to live in.

我想到的是那些在週六排隊租房的年輕人，他們互相競價購買自己可能根本不想住的房子。

It's people who've bought in really high house prices, high mortgages, who are in a cost of living crisis, struggling to be able to look after their families properly.

那些買了高房價、高抵押貸款的人正面臨著生活成本危機，他們正努力爭取能夠好好照顧自己的家人。

And perhaps most concerningly at all, it's that increasing number of people in our country who are actually falling out of the bottom of the housing market altogether into homelessness.

也許最令人擔憂的是，我國越來越多的人實際上正從住房市場的谷底跌落，淪為無家可歸者。

So these problems have been building and building in our country really for about 30 years now.

是以，這些問題在我國已經持續了 30 年。

And our government, the Albanese government, is really stepping up and trying to do something significant about this problem.

而我們的政府，阿爾巴尼塞政府，正在真正站出來，努力為解決這個問題做些重要的事情。

You just mentioned young people there.

你剛才提到那裡的年輕人。

Can you explain why this generation is going to be worse off than their parents when it comes to housing?

你能解釋一下為什麼這一代人在住房問題上會比他們的父輩更糟糕嗎？

Well, I don't think we should quite wave the white flag on that just yet.

我認為我們還不應該就此揮舞白旗。

I think young people are going through some horrendous difficulties with housing.

我認為年輕人在住房方面正經歷著一些可怕的困難。

And the people that I'm most worried about when I look at what's going on in the housing market are absolutely young people.

當我看到住房市場的情況時，我最擔心的絕對是年輕人。

What I want young people to know is that for the first time in my lifetime, we have a Commonwealth government and state governments and local governments right around the country who are urgently trying to address some issues that frankly should have been dealt with decades ago but weren't.

我想讓年輕人知道的是，在我有生之年，我們第一次有了聯邦政府、州政府和全國各地的地方政府，他們正在緊急努力解決一些問題，坦率地說，這些問題早在幾十年前就應該解決，但卻沒有解決。

And it's going to take a little bit of time for us to address them.

我們需要一點時間來解決這些問題。

But I don't think that takes away at all from the problems that young people are experiencing today.

但我認為，這一點也不能抹殺當今年輕人遇到的問題。

They're very real and trust me, I'm talking to young people about that all the time.

它們非常真實，相信我，我一直在和年輕人談論這個問題。

So you've set out the problem there.

所以，你已經提出了問題所在。

I just want to have a look at some of the solutions that the government's putting on the table, maybe starting with home ownership.

我只想看看政府提出的一些解決方案，也許可以從房屋所有權開始。

Your main policy in this area is called Help to Buy.

你們在這方面的主要政策叫做 "幫助購買"。

Can you just briefly explain what that is?

你能簡單解釋一下那是什麼嗎？

We have a few specific things that we're offering to first home owners.

我們為首次置業者提供了一些具體的服務。

One of those is Help to Buy, as you mentioned.

其中之一就是您提到的 "幫助購買"。

So this is a scheme that will assist 40,000 people to get into the housing market.

是以，這項計劃將幫助 40,000 人進入住房市場。

It's targeted at people who are the people who are locked out at the moment, our childcare workers, disability workers, other people who are on kind of medium or lower incomes.

它針對的是那些目前被鎖在門外的人，我們的兒童保育員、殘疾工人，以及其他中等或較低收入的人。

So that's a scheme that will affect 40,000 people.

是以，這項計劃將影響到 4 萬人。

How does that bring down house prices?

這如何降低房價？

Because that helps people put down a deposit, but does it actually address the root cause of escalating prices when it comes to housing?

因為這能幫助人們付定金，但它能真正解決住房價格不斷攀升的根本原因嗎？

Yeah.

是啊

So no, it doesn't.

所以，沒有。

And it's not targeted at bringing down house prices.

它的目標不是降低房價。

The biggest problem that we have, and if there's one thing that your listeners take from this discussion about housing, it should be this.

我們面臨的最大問題是，如果聽眾朋友們能從這次關於住房問題的討論中得到一點啟發，那就是："我們的問題是什麼？

The reason we have a housing crisis in our country is because we haven't been building enough homes.

我國之所以出現住房危機，是因為我們沒有建造足夠的住房。

So that's why you're seeing that really unsustainable house price growth, especially in some cities where there's huge pressure, like Perth, for example, is one area where house prices have gone up very, very, very high.

這就是為什麼你會看到不可持續的房價增長，尤其是在一些面臨巨大壓力的城市，比如珀斯，房價就漲得非常、非常、非常高。

The home ownership stuff is work that we are doing that gives people some immediate assistance to get into the housing market.

我們正在開展的 "房屋所有權 "工作，為人們進入住房市場提供了一些直接援助。

We're not going to fix the house price problem in our country overnight.

我們不可能在一夜之間解決我國的房價問題。

What we can do is make sure we're using our government supports to help young people get into the housing market.

我們能做的就是確保利用政府的支持，幫助年輕人進入住房市場。

So just drilling into some of the policy specifics, you mentioned that this help to buy scheme will help 40,000 people over four years.

是以，我只想深入探討一些政策細節，您提到這項幫助購買計劃將在四年內幫助四萬人。

The Greens have criticized this as being a terrible policy because it effectively creates a lottery system.

綠黨責備這是一項糟糕的政策，因為它實際上建立了一種抽籤制度。

Do you agree that it's a lottery?

你同意這是抽獎嗎？

No, because the scheme has yet to start.

沒有，因為計劃尚未開始。

So it starts next year, it'll be 10,000 places a year, and it won't be a lottery scheme.

是以，明年開始，每年將有 10,000 個名額，而且不是抽籤計劃。

It will be first come, first serve, and we'll see what that demand looks like.

先到先得，我們會看到需求是什麼樣的。

But if I can just say very respectfully, I mean, the way the Greens have behaved in the housing debate hasn't been fantastic.

但如果我可以非常恭敬地說，我的意思是，綠黨在住房問題辯論中的表現並不出色。

A shared equity scheme, which is what help to buy is, was part of their platform going into the 2022 election.

共有產權計劃，也就是 "幫助購買 "計劃，是他們參加 2022 年大選的政綱之一。

And they then held up our government from setting up a shared equity scheme for a really long period of time.

然後，他們在很長一段時間內阻礙了我國政府建立共享股權計劃。

And that's had real consequences.

這帶來了真正的後果。

We would have been able to start that scheme in the middle of this year, 2024, and it's been delayed.

我們本可以在今年年中（即 2024 年）啟動該計劃，但它被延後了。

Respectfully, I'd love to hear from other people who've got different points of view, but I'm not sure we've seen the best behavior from the Greens on this one.

恕我直言，我很想聽聽其他持不同觀點的人的意見，但我不確定綠黨在這件事上是否表現得最好。

TDA did a bit of a call out when we announced that we would be interviewing the housing minister.

當我們宣佈將對住房部長進行採訪時，TDA 做了一些呼籲。

And the number one thing that they came back with was negative gearing.

他們得出的首要結論就是負資產負債率。

What's your position on changing negative gearing?

你對改變負齒輪傳動裝置持什麼立場？

My position is this.

我的立場是這樣的。

I want people to understand the reason that we have a housing crisis is because we haven't been building enough homes.

我希望人們明白，我們之所以面臨住房危機，是因為我們沒有建造足夠的住房。

With respect, Minister, we will get to supply.

恕我直言，部長，我們會提供的。

And I definitely want to ask you more about the government's plans to build more homes.

我肯定想問你更多關於政府建造更多住宅的計劃。

No, no, I know.

不，不，我知道。

And the reason I'm pointing that out, Harry, is because every policy that we have, we assess from that lens.

哈里，我之所以指出這一點，是因為我們的每一項政策都是從這個角度進行評估的。

Is it going to help us build more homes?

它能幫助我們建造更多的房屋嗎？

I think you'd be aware that our government looked at changes to negative gearing and capital gains tax.

我想你應該知道，我們的政府正在研究負資產負債率和資本利得稅的變化。

And we couldn't clearly show that there weren't going to be supply issues created by that.

我們無法清楚地證明這不會造成供應問題。

And so we decided not to progress with changes on negative gearing and capital gains tax.

是以，我們決定不對負資產負債率和資本利得稅進行修改。

Our policies are, we're trying to address those major supply issues, help renters get a better deal and help more Australians into home ownership.

我們的政策是，我們正在努力解決這些主要的供應問題，幫助租房者獲得更好的待遇，並幫助更多的澳大利亞人擁有住房。

And those are the focus for the moment.

這些就是目前的重點。

And I just say also, Harry, my party took negative gearing changes to two elections and the Australian people said, well, you didn't get elected.

我還要說的是，哈里，我的政黨在兩次選舉中都採取了負資產配置改革，澳洲人民說，好吧，你沒有當選。

We didn't get to make those changes.

我們沒能做出這些改變。

So we've moved on from that debate.

是以，我們已經從這場辯論中走了出來。

We're now focused on the things that are really going to make a difference and that's building more homes.

我們現在專注於真正能帶來改變的事情，那就是建造更多的房屋。

So voters have rejected it at two previous elections.

是以，在前兩次選舉中，選民們都否決了它。

Does this mean that the government will never look at changing negative gearing ever again?

這是否意味著政府再也不會考慮改變負資產負債率？

It's just not the focus and it's not being looked at at the moment.

這不是重點，目前也沒有人關注它。

And I mean, obviously I can't say what a government in 10 or 20 years time might do, but it's certainly not something that's being considered by our government.

我的意思是，顯然我不能說 10 年或 20 年後的政府會怎麼做，但這肯定不是我們的政府正在考慮的事情。

Not in the next five or 10 years?

未來五年或十年內不會？

It's not something that's being considered by the government and the government's had a look at it and we've moved on.

這不是政府正在考慮的事情，政府已經對此進行了研究，我們也已經向前看了。

Moving on to renting, the Australian dream has always been to own your own home.

說到租房，澳大利亞人的夢想一直是擁有自己的房子。

Many people listening today will be in a category of people known as forever renters because they have given up on that dream.

今天收聽節目的很多人都屬於 "永遠的租房者"，因為他們已經放棄了這個夢想。

What's your message to them?

你要向他們傳達什麼資訊？

Well, I don't want them to give up on that dream.

我不希望他們放棄這個夢想。

I think it's perfectly normal to rent when you're young and you're moving around and you don't want to have big financial obligations, but certainly the aspiration of our government is not to just consider that that dream's going to end with this generation of young people.

我認為，年輕時租房是再正常不過的事了，因為你要四處漂泊，不想揹負沉重的經濟負擔，但我們政府的願望肯定不是認為這個夢想會隨著這一代年輕人的到來而終結。

We're genuinely really concerned about the idea that young people feel that they're never going to get into home ownership.

我們真的非常擔心年輕人覺得他們永遠無法擁有自己的房子。

And so the government is doing everything we can to reshape that.

是以，政府正竭盡全力重塑這一局面。

The building more homes, making sure that when you are renting, that you're in a stable and secure place, that you're not getting kicked out or treated badly like your landlord.

建造更多的房屋，確保你租住在一個穩定安全的地方，不會被房東趕走或受到不好的待遇。

And then also that work that we're doing to try to help get more young people into home ownership.

此外，我們還在努力幫助更多的年輕人置業。

Now, we're having a conversation here and you're putting the appropriate amounts of pressure on me as you should do as a journalist, but I just say to people listening at home, you know, the Commonwealth has not stepped up on housing for a long, long time in this country and you do have a Commonwealth government that's stepping in, states that are really working at this and trying to address all of those barriers that are creating those problems at the moment.

現在，我們在這裡進行對話，你們給我施加了適當的壓力，作為一名記者，你們應該這樣做，但我只想對在國內收聽廣播的人們說，你們知道，在這個國家，英聯邦已經很久很久沒有在住房問題上加大力度了，你們確實有一個英聯邦政府正在介入，各州也確實在努力解決這個問題，並試圖解決目前造成這些問題的所有障礙。

And we are going to see change that results from that.

我們將看到由此帶來的變化。

Looking at the cost of renting, I think a lot of people listening today don't need to be reminded that renting is just getting more and more expensive.

看看租房的成本，我想今天很多人都不需要我提醒他們租房越來越貴了。

The average cost in the capital cities is $650 and the average cost in the regions is $550.

首都的平均費用為 650 美元，各地區的平均費用為 550 美元。

I know that this is a state issue, but as the country's housing minister, do you want to see caps on rent increases?

我知道這是一個州的問題，但作為該國的住房部長，您希望看到房租上漲的上限嗎？

Absolutely not.

絕對不行。

So firstly, renters are doing it really, really tough and if there was a single thing that we could do to fix all the problems that renters are experiencing, then I would absolutely be up for that, but it's not that simple.

首先，租房者的處境非常非常艱難，如果我們能做一件事來解決租房者遇到的所有問題，那麼我絕對會支持，但事情沒那麼簡單。

So I don't support rent caps and, you know, if you bring some experts onto the show and talk to them, you'll get a really consistent answer out of them.

是以，我不支持租金上限，你知道，如果你把一些專家請到節目中與他們交談，你會從他們那裡得到非常一致的答案。

Economists in the world agree on almost nothing, but almost all of them agree that rent caps is ultimately going to create really, really serious problems.

世界上的經濟學家幾乎沒有什麼共識，但幾乎所有的經濟學家都認為，租金上限最終會帶來非常、非常嚴重的問題。

So people will stop building homes, they will stop offering their homes for renters, they will create conditions where rentals become completely rundown and atrocious to live in and basically we're not going to have a functioning housing market anymore.

是以，人們會停止建造房屋，停止為租房者提供房屋，創造條件讓租房者住在完全破舊不堪的房子裡，基本上我們就不會再有一個正常運轉的住房市場了。

So this is just the consequence of rent caps.

是以，這只是租金上限的後果。

It's why that, you know, rent caps are reasonably rare when you look at what's going on around the world.

是以，縱觀世界各國的情況，房租上限是非常罕見的。

The ACT has them.

ACT 也有。

Do you think that those dire circumstances where you're left with poorly kept rentals, do you think that that's happening in the ACT?

你認為澳洲首都地區會出現這種情況嗎？

Hello, Billie here from TDA.

你好，我是 TDA 的比莉。

We have just looked at our YouTube analytics and 95% of you who are watching our videos aren't subscribing.

我們剛剛查看了 YouTube 的分析數據，發現 95% 觀看我們視頻的人都沒有訂閱。

If you want to help independent media like us grow, the best way you can do that is by pressing subscribe.

如果您想幫助像我們這樣的獨立媒體發展壯大，最好的辦法就是按下 "訂閱 "鍵。

Thank you so much.

非常感謝。

And back to the video.

回到視頻上來。

I mean, it's probably not happening in the ACT and I'm not sure what the exact policy structure they have for, you know, the way that they're managing rentals there.

我的意思是，澳洲首都地區可能不會出現這種情況，而且我也不清楚他們的確切政策結構，你知道，他們在那裡管理租賃的方式是什麼。

And as you say, this is a state issue, so not actually something I have control over, but I just say generally rent caps are a really bad idea.

正如你所說，這是一個州的問題，所以實際上我無法控制，但我只能說，一般來說，租金上限是一個非常糟糕的主意。

So there are other forms of rental protections though, and that could include capping the number of times that rents increase in a single year.

是以，還有其他形式的租金保護措施，其中可能包括限制租金在一年內上漲的次數。

Is that something you're supportive of?

你支持這樣做嗎？

It is, and that is something that the government is pursuing through national cabinet.

的確如此，這也是政府正在通過國家內閣努力實現的目標。

So renter rights are managed by state governments.

是以，租房者的權利由州政府管理。

That's a constitutional thing that renters rights are managed by state governments.

租房者的權利由州政府管理，這是憲法規定的。

So our government doesn't want to tap out of it.

所以，我們的政府不想從中抽身。

What we're trying to do is work with the state premiers to make consistent changes around the country to make renting a better experience.

我們要做的就是與各州州長合作，在全國範圍內做出一致的改變，讓租車體驗更好。

So one of those is only allowing for one rental increase a year.

是以，其中之一就是每年只允許增加一次租金。

Another one of those is not allowing for no-fault evictions.

另一項是不允許無過錯驅逐。

So people can't get kicked out of their rental property unless they've actually done something wrong, something to, you know, that would create problems for the landlord.

是以，除非人們真的做了什麼錯事，做了什麼會給房東帶來麻煩的事，否則是不會被趕出出租房的。

So these are being pursued through national cabinet.

是以，這些工作正通過國家內閣進行。

What has to happen is one of the just complexities of my work.

這就是我工作的複雜性之一。

When the states own these powers, they have to actually go through and legislate those changes state by state, and the states are working through that at the moment.

當各州擁有這些權力時，他們必須逐州通過立法來實現這些變化，目前各州正在努力實現這些變化。

So you've mentioned supply a few times now.

你已經多次提到供應問題了。

I just want to ask about the government's plans to actually build more homes.

我只想問一下政府實際建造更多房屋的計劃。

Can you just talk me through what the federal government is doing in this space?

您能和我談談聯邦政府在這一領域的工作嗎？

Yeah.

是啊

So I've said a couple of times, the biggest issue that we face here is that we don't have enough housing and we haven't been building enough housing over a long period of time.

是以，我已經說過幾次，我們面臨的最大問題是我們沒有足夠的住房，而且長期以來我們一直沒有建造足夠的住房。

So when we look at how many houses we have per head of population, per thousand people living in our country, our rates are quite a bit below other countries that we compare ourselves to.

是以，當我們看一下我國每千人口擁有多少住房時，我們的住房率要比我們所比較的其他國家低很多。

And that just reflects all those housing pressures that people are feeling.

這恰恰反映了人們所感受到的住房壓力。

So the answer to this is to build more homes.

是以，答案就是建造更多的房屋。

So we've sat down with the state governments and said, we are going to, as a group, try to build 1.2 million homes over the coming five years.

是以，我們與各州政府坐在一起，表示我們將在未來五年內，作為一個團體，努力建造 120 萬套住房。

So this is work that the states have got to do around changing planning and zoning laws.

是以，各州必須圍繞改變規劃和分區法開展這項工作。

It's about making sure that we've got more construction workers in our country.

這是為了確保我國有更多的建築工人。

It's about providing funding where that's appropriate.

在適當的地方提供資金。

The Commonwealth is building, for example, 55,000 social and affordable homes as part of that bid to get to 1.2 million.

例如，英聯邦正在建設 5.5 萬套社會和經濟適用房，以爭取達到 120 萬套。

So it's basically everyone trying to do everything that they can to build more homes as a country.

是以，基本上每個人都在竭盡所能，為國家建造更多的房屋。

And that's the first time this has happened really since the post-war period that we've all tried to come together like that.

這是自戰後以來，我們第一次像這樣走到一起。

The coalition says that migration is impacting supply.

該聯盟表示，移民正在影響供應。

What are your reflections on that argument?

你對這一論點有什麼看法？

Well, I agree that migration has a part in this discussion.

嗯，我同意移民在這場討論中佔有一席之地。

Of course it does, because the number of people living in our country is a driver of how many houses we need.

當然是這樣，因為居住在我國的人口數量決定了我們需要多少房屋。

It's really important not to exaggerate that and politicise it, though, and that's probably some of the concerns I have with the debate at the moment.

但重要的是，不要誇大這一點，不要將其政治化，這可能是我對目前辯論的一些擔憂。

We had a little bit of a real-time experiment of what happens to housing when our population goes down, as it did during COVID, when a lot of people who were temporary migrants in our country left Australia, and house prices absolutely went through the roof.

我們曾做過一個小小的實時實驗，當我們的人口減少時，住房會發生什麼情況，就像在 COVID 期間那樣，當時我們國家的很多臨時移民離開了澳洲，房價絕對是一路飆升。

So I don't think you can categorically say that migration is the cause of all of these problems.

是以，我認為不能斷言移民是所有這些問題的根源。

However, migration has been high post-COVID, and our government is reducing migration basically back to normal levels, and that will help over time.

不過，COVID 後移民人數一直居高不下，我國政府正在將移民人數基本減少到正常水準，隨著時間的推移，這將有所幫助。

So now that the government's two key pieces of legislation has passed that's helped buy and build to rent in the final sitting fortnight, what's next?

那麼，既然政府的兩項重要立法已經通過，在最後的兩星期裡幫助買房和建房出租，接下來該怎麼辦呢？

So it's been a really big week for housing.

是以，對於住房來說，本週是非常重要的一週。

As you mentioned, we've got two of these really important pieces of the puzzle from our perspective through the Senate.

正如您所提到的，從我們的角度來看，參議院已經為我們提供了兩塊非常重要的拼圖。

What's next is a big push on implementation.

接下來就是大力推進實施工作。

So for a lot of your listeners, they probably see government sort of debating these things and all that sort of thing, and then they switch off a little bit when legislation passes.

是以，對於你們的許多聽眾來說，他們可能會看到政府在辯論這些事情，以及所有諸如此類的事情，然後當立法通過時，他們就會稍稍放下心來。