I think there should be a center.

我認為應該有一箇中心。

I'll say this to anybody and I'll stand by it.

我對任何人都會這麼說，我也會堅持這麼做。

Just skip therapy for a year and just go to opera class instead.

乾脆一年不做治療，只去上歌劇課。

Hello.

你好

Welcome, everybody.

歡迎大家

My name is Pablo and we have a very special guest in our show today.

我是巴勃羅，今天我們的節目請來了一位非常特別的嘉賓。

Hello, Pablo.

你好，巴勃羅

You know, because we get the same questions everywhere and we're trying to do something a little bit different.

你知道，因為我們在哪裡都會遇到同樣的問題，而我們正試圖做一些與眾不同的事情。

I know that most people ask you about your relationship with opera before you make a movie.

我知道大多數人都會問你在拍電影之前與歌劇的關係。

And I want to know what's your relationship with opera now?

我想知道你現在和歌劇是什麼關係？

Well, you know, I love opera now.

你知道，我現在喜歡歌劇了。

I listen to it all the time.

我一直在聽。

I listen to it more than than anything.

我聽得最多的就是它。

It's very grounding.

非常接地氣。

So I put it on now to just kind of think and settle.

所以，我現在戴上它，只是為了思考和沉澱一下。

I remember that one of the things that I think is very beautiful to me is how you brought up a new angle of the character.

我記得其中有一件事讓我覺得非常美好，那就是你如何從一個新的角度來塑造這個角色。

And I think I've said this to you, which is the sense of stoicism that she had and that you brought to the screen.

我想我已經對你說過了，那就是她所具有的堅忍不拔的精神，而你把這種精神帶到了銀幕上。

Where did you get that from?

你從哪兒聽來的？

Well, is that something that you found as you look to her in interviews?

你在採訪她時發現了這一點嗎？

Something that that happened to you when you were listening to the music?

當你聽音樂時，發生了什麼事？

Where did you find that sense of stoicism that you brought to the character?

你從哪裡找到了你賦予角色的那種堅忍不拔的精神？

I'm not moved by self-pity.

我不會因為自憐而感動。

I find it.

我找到了

It doesn't it doesn't.

沒有，沒有。

I don't have an emotional reaction to it in the same way that when I see a human being doing their best to hold their head up and to get get on.

當我看到一個人竭盡全力抬起頭來繼續前進時，我不會有與之相同的情緒反應。

I find that very moving.

我覺得非常感動。

And and there's the type of people I tend to like.

這就是我喜歡的那類人。

And I and I recognize that in her.

我認識到了她的這一點。

I would see I would see interviews.

我會看到我會看到採訪。

Some horrible things are said to her.

有人對她說了一些可怕的話。

Right.

對

Horrible questions, rude things.

可怕的問題，粗魯的事情。

Even people throw things at her.

甚至有人朝她扔東西。

Right.

對

And you see her having to hold her nerve and hold her hold herself together and not and not break apart.

你會看到她必須鼓起勇氣，保持冷靜，不能崩潰。

And so I think it was something she had to do, but also something that was that was a little a bit innate to her.

是以，我認為這是她必須做的事情，但也是她與生俱來的事情。

There's something that that you have said to me and not just to me, to others, that after your process of learning how to sing, you think other people like most people should go into opera classes.

你曾對我說過，不只是對我，也對其他人說過，在你學習唱歌的過程之後，你認為其他人，比如大多數人，應該去上歌劇課。

Oh, I do.

哦，我知道。

Everybody.

每個人都是

Why?

為什麼？

Especially you first, because because I really hadn't understood how much.

尤其是你，因為我真的不瞭解你有多厲害。

We hold in our bodies and how much through a lifetime we we carry and it changes and how much it affects our our sound.

我們的身體承載著多少東西，我們的一生又承載了多少東西，這些東西的變化又對我們的聲音產生了多大的影響。

And I realized early on when I had to take that deep breath and let it all out and like let my actual voice out that.

我很早就意識到，當我必須深吸一口氣，把一切都發洩出來，讓我的聲音真正地表達出來。

I wasn't I think that's why I didn't know I was a soprano, because I think I always had this like this deeper, stronger.

我不是，我想這就是我不知道自己是女高音的原因，因為我覺得自己一直都是這樣，更深沉、更堅強。

And I said I said, no, my voice in the end, the coach said, that's not your natural voice.

我說，我說，不，我的聲音最後，教練說，那不是你的自然聲音。

Your natural voice is much higher and softer than the way you speak.

你的自然嗓音比你說話的聲音要高亢、柔和得多。

And so did he say why or do you know why?

他說了原因嗎，你知道原因嗎？

I think it was my softness that I somehow along my life felt that I either wasn't safe or wasn't heard in my softer self.

我想，正是因為我的柔軟，才讓我在人生的道路上不知不覺地感覺到，柔軟的自己要麼不安全，要麼不被傾聽。

I don't know if other people know this about about Maria Callas and her aim to put opera back to where it belonged in the beginning, how it was formed nearly 500 years ago, which is back to the people.

我不知道其他人是否知道瑪麗亞-卡拉斯的事蹟，她的目標是讓歌劇回到它最初的位置，回到近 500 年前它形成的地方，也就是回到人民中間。

And I think one of the aims of this movie is just like Callas wanted.

我認為這部電影的目的之一就像卡拉斯所希望的那樣。

We want the opera to be out there and wanted to reconnect.

我們希望歌劇能夠流傳下去，並希望重新建立聯繫。

You also being a very known person will help to that process.

你也是一個非常有名的人，這將有助於這一進程。

How does it make you feel?

你有什麼感覺？

Oh, well, that would be a dream because it's an art form that I think is real, that I really love and I I value.

哦，好吧，那將是一個夢想，因為這是一種我認為真實的藝術形式，我真的很喜歡，也很重視。

I also think it's probably why in the beginning I was hesitant.

我想這也是我一開始猶豫不決的原因。

Sometimes when you're a public person for a long time, people have different ideas of you.

有時，當你長期在公眾面前露面時，人們會對你有不同的看法。

They've seen new things.

他們看到了新事物。

It's hard to lose you in a film.

一部電影很難讓人迷失。

But so I, I, I would love that it would mean so much to me.

但是，我，我，我很高興這對我來說意義重大。

And I think and you're absolutely right, I think.

我認為，你說得非常對。

And I would say this to anybody who thinks this somehow is about opera.

我想對那些認為這與歌劇有關的人說。

And therefore, it's not something you'll understand because you weren't raised with opera.

是以，這不是你能理解的，因為你不是在歌劇中長大的。

I wasn't raised with opera and felt that I would have to get this education because I wasn't I wasn't sophisticated.

我不是在歌劇中長大的，我覺得我必須接受這種教育，因為我並不成熟。

I wasn't it was beyond me.

我沒有，我做不到。

And I found it quite the opposite.

而我發現情況恰恰相反。

I found that it was so it's so deep in the human experience and it's so for everyone.

我發現它是如此深刻地反映了人類的經歷，它是如此適合每一個人。

I found an actress with a lot of discipline to to work the role, even though it was very scary and frightening and sure.

我找到了一位非常自律的女演員來演繹這個角色，儘管這個角色非常可怕、令人恐懼，而且很有把握。

And I say this because I've struggled for many years with this idea of of talent, you know, and the idea of taste, you know, like almost like people were born with that.

我之所以這麼說，是因為多年來我一直在與 "天賦 "和 "品味 "的概念作鬥爭，你知道，這幾乎就像是人們與生俱來的一樣。

You know, Maria Callas, just like most of the great artists, just sang every day of her life and trained every single day on a discipline.

要知道，瑪麗亞-卡拉斯和大多數偉大的藝術家一樣，一生中每天都在歌唱，每天都在接受訓練。

And probably she had a great voice, no doubt.

毫無疑問，她可能還有一副好嗓子。

But she worked it out.

但她還是解決了。

And you told me this.

這是你告訴我的。

I'm a worker.

我是個工人。

I'm here to work.

我是來工作的

And people might think that behind this idea of fame or public knowledge that that you could carry, there's someone that, you know, things are given to her.

人們可能會認為，在你的名聲或公眾知識的背後，有一個人，你知道，東西是給她的。

What is your relationship with with work and to to the idea of of earning the things and not to be the recipient of a gift?

您與工作之間的關係是什麼？您認為自己是在賺錢而不是接受禮物嗎？

You know, I do pride myself a worker.

你知道，我確實為自己是個工人而自豪。

And it means a lot to me that that you saw that and that you knew how much I was wanting to give everything and commit to this.

你看到了這一點，你知道我是多麼想為這個項目付出一切，這對我來說意義重大。

As a creative, you want to always be growing.

作為一名創意人員，你希望自己一直在成長。

I'm always putting myself in a situation where I'm not the smartest person in the room or I don't understand what's happening.

我總是把自己置身於這樣一種境地：我不是房間裡最聰明的人，或者我不明白髮生了什麼。

Is that is the way that so much creativity and so much human growth comes from being completely uncomfortable, but working very hard.

就是這樣，許多創造力和人類的成長都來自於完全不舒服，但又非常努力的工作。

And I may also be at fault for never knowing how to relax, though.

不過，我也可能有錯，因為我從來不知道如何放鬆。

I mean, I may have the opposite problem.

我的意思是，我可能有相反的問題。

I've never been good at like, I can't take a vacation.

我從來都不擅長度假。

I think not dissimilar to Maria.

我認為這與瑪麗亞並無二致。

We're very different people in many ways, but not dissimilar.

我們在很多方面都是截然不同的人，但並無差別。

I was working to help my mom pay bills when I was about 14.

我 14 歲左右就開始工作幫媽媽付賬單。

So I think that I probably have a strange sense of that I can't or I shouldn't or I don't know who I am when I'm not working.

所以我覺得，我可能有一種奇怪的感覺，覺得我不能或不應該工作，或者不工作的時候我不知道自己是誰。

That's a whole other therapy session that will take another.

那是另一個治療過程，需要另一次治療。

I remember I called you when we were preparing the movie after I went to see the eye doctor and he was like a fan of Callas, like a like a like a guy that really knew her work.

我記得在籌備電影時，我去看了眼科醫生後給你打了電話，他是卡拉斯的粉絲，非常瞭解她的作品。

And he goes and says, did you know that she had myopia?

然後他說，你知道她有近視嗎？

And I'm like, yeah, I've seen some pictures with glasses.

我想，是啊，我見過一些戴眼鏡的照片。

You want to see how she actually saw back then?

你想看看她當時到底是怎麼看的嗎？

So I sat with with with him and he put me these things and she could not see anything from, you know, from this distance.

所以我和他坐在一起，他把這些東西給我，她從這麼遠的地方什麼也看不見。

Like, I don't know.

我也不知道。

I don't know.

我不知道。

Like five centimeters.

比如五釐米。

I don't know how many inches is, but like nothing.

我不知道有多少英寸，但好像沒什麼。

So how did you approach that element of the character?

那麼，你是如何處理角色的這一元素的？

That is, we haven't talked about it with anyone.

也就是說，我們沒有和任何人談論過這件事。

I think I know the answer, but I think it's interesting to talk about it.

我想我知道答案，但我覺得談論這個問題很有意思。

But someone that can't see.

但有人看不見。

Well, one thing you don't know and a lot of people don't know is I'm nearsighted.

有一件事你不知道，很多人都不知道，我是個近視眼。

So I have like the slight, slight understanding only that I think it puts you in a place where you're a little more isolated because you're not sure of the person's expression across the room.

所以，我有一點小小的理解，只是我覺得這會讓你更孤立，因為你不確定對面人的表情。

You're not sure of the world around you in the same way that somebody who can see perfectly can.

你對周圍世界的瞭解不如看得清楚的人。

So I think it made her more isolated, more private, more misunderstood.

是以，我認為這讓她更加孤立、更加隱祕、更加被誤解。

It also really made me very sad for her, because I realized when she was a little girl going to the conservatory and her mother put so much pressure on her, right?

這也讓我為她感到非常難過，因為我意識到，當她還是個小女孩的時候，就去音樂學院學習，她的母親給了她很大的壓力，對嗎？

She had to be great.

她一定很棒。

She had to become this opera singer.

她必須成為歌劇演員。

She had to be.

她必須如此。

I wonder if she even felt she was in a position to say, but mom, I can't see or I can't see the conductor.

我不知道她是否覺得自己有資格說："但是媽媽，我看不見，或者我看不見售票員。

I'm sure she didn't tell anybody how bad it was because it would have been something that they would have seen as she's less than and she can't become.

我敢肯定，她沒有告訴任何人她的情況有多糟糕，因為在他們看來，她是個不合格的人，她不能成為這樣的人。

Yeah.

是啊

She had to memorize the music so perfectly because she couldn't rely on the conductor.

她必須把音樂背得滾瓜爛熟，因為她不能依賴指揮。

She had to memorize everything.

她必須記住一切。

She had to.

她必須這麼做

She just had to be that work that much harder.

她不得不更加努力地工作。

So it just made me love her all the more and respect her.

這讓我更加愛她，也更加尊敬她。

But I it's that image.

但我就是喜歡這個形象。

It's that image you and I both love.

這是你我都喜歡的畫面。

Well, she's walking into the apartment, walking the apartment.

她走進了公寓 走進了公寓

And that look on her face.

還有她臉上的表情

But it's actually in 77.

但實際上是在 77 年。

She's walking into the apartment like a paparazzi who took that.

她走進公寓，就像狗仔隊拍到的一樣。

And it's like she's captured so.

她就像被俘虜了一樣。

So painful.

太痛苦了

This is a good start for my following question.

這為我下面的問題開了個好頭。

Yes.

是的。

You're a very good interviewer.

你是個很好的面試官。

Right, right.

對，對

I love it.

我喜歡

I don't have to talk much.

我不需要說太多。

I know, but there's something interesting.

我知道，但有件事很有趣。

We discussed the fact that obviously your training with the music was the best path to the character to to get there.

我們討論過這樣一個事實：顯然，你在音樂方面的訓練是塑造角色的最佳途徑。

But those are elements from the sound world that were very important.

但這些來自聲音世界的元素非常重要。

What elements from the physical world, the visual world, what images stayed with you in the preparation?

在準備過程中，物理世界、視覺世界中的哪些元素、哪些影像讓你記憶猶新？

I'm thinking on obviously Paris, her apartment and the opera houses, Milan, Rome, Venice, imaginary around Onassis' boat in the Greek islands.

我想的顯然是巴黎、她的公寓和歌劇院、米蘭、羅馬、威尼斯，還有想象中奧納西斯在希臘群島的船周圍。

Athens, as she grew up.

雅典，因為她長大了。

New York, Brooklyn, when when she was born.

她出生在紐約布魯克林。

What is the visual content that stayed with you?

讓您記憶猶新的視覺內容是什麼？

Maybe maybe before we started the movie and then after.

也許是在我們開始看電影之前，也許是在我們開始看電影之後。

What is what it emerged like the images that stayed with you?

出現在你腦海中的畫面是什麼樣的？

I mean, so many and really so much of it is the juxtaposition of so many different aspects of her life, right?

我的意思是，她生活中的很多不同方面都並置在一起，對嗎？

That there's this that it's not like there's a Maria and then there's a fake Maria or a private and a public.

這並不是說有一個瑪麗亞，然後有一個假瑪麗亞，或者一個私人的和一個公共的。

They're all it's all Maria.

他們都是瑪麗亞。

I think the images before would have been her on stage, her in the red dress, you know, when she's just so still and all you all you're looking at is this the stillness.

我覺得之前的畫面應該是她在舞臺上，她穿著紅色禮服，你知道，她就那麼靜靜地站著，你所看到的就是這種靜止。

I don't think I've seen anything like that.

我想我從未見過這樣的東西。

That's so extraordinary.

太了不起了

Just that that's stoic, that stoicism, that stoicism.

只是，那是一種委曲求全，那是一種堅忍不拔，那是一種委曲求全。

And that that that's Musa Traviata.

這就是穆薩-特拉維塔。

I think we talked about seeing her with Onassis where she seemed free.

我想我們談到過她和奧納西斯在一起的情景，她看起來很自由。

She seemed like a girl, seemed like a woman and thinking it must have been so nice for her to have a time in her life where she felt the wind in her hair, literally, and she just.

她看起來像個女孩，又像個女人，我想她一定很高興，在她的生命中，有那麼一段時光，她能感受到風吹拂著她的頭髮，真的，她就這樣。

Felt silly and free and not always under pressure to to show to work and work and work and and and just be alive and have sex and be in love.

感到懵懂和自由，不再總是承受著工作、工作、工作、工作的壓力，而只是活著，做愛，戀愛。

There was something about her and her dogs.

她和她的狗都有些特別。

And there's images of her doing what she's in her first crazy her bolero hat, her giant glasses, her her poodles.

畫面中，她戴著大禮帽，戴著大框眼鏡，叼著貴賓犬，一副初生牛犢不怕虎的樣子。

And she's walking the streets of Paris.

她正在巴黎街頭漫步。

And I and I remember thinking, God, do I miss a wonderful, eccentric artist?

我記得我當時在想，天哪，我是不是錯過了一位出色的、古怪的藝術家？

We don't see a lot these days.

我們最近很少看到。

There's I consider it to be almost like an obsession because we've been together doing a lot of press.

我認為這幾乎是一種痴迷，因為我們在一起做了很多新聞報道。

And there's this continuous question about comparing your life with Maria.

還有一個持續不斷的問題，就是把你的生活與瑪麗亞相比較。

Right.

對

And what are the things that you might have in common?

你們有哪些共同點？

And I wonder when you were doing the research that we gave you or the one that you found yourself, is there anything that was surprising that like that maybe it's not something that is the obvious thing that people could think about, but that when you were looking at was like, wow, look at that.

我想知道，當你在做我們給你的研究或你自己發現的研究時，有沒有什麼事情是令人驚訝的，就像這也許不是人們能想到的顯而易見的事情，但當你看的時候，就像，哇，看看那個。

That's that's very similar to to the way I see something, to the way I relate to the world.

這與我看待事物的方式、我與世界的關係非常相似。

I remember just thinking often I was so fortunate I had my children because I think without my children, she and I are very, very similar.

我記得我經常在想，我很幸運有了我的孩子，因為我覺得如果沒有孩子，我和她是非常非常相似的。

And the thing we talked about once in that wanting to be a girl, which is maybe sharing too much.

我們曾經討論過想成為一個女孩的問題，這可能是分享得太多了。

But I think there's that when you feel that you've had to be responsible for a lot when you're young, you you you actually want to be able to just be like, I think she just wanted to be Maria.

但我覺得，當你覺得自己年輕時要承擔很多責任時，你就會希望自己能夠像，我覺得她只是想成為瑪麗亞。

Like, I just want to be Angie.

比如，我只想做安琪。

I think it's very sad what what happened with with Maria and her intention to to have children, to have a family.

我認為，瑪麗亞的遭遇以及她想要孩子和家庭的想法令人非常難過。

I don't know if she ever felt love.

我不知道她是否感受過愛。

Like real deep.

就像真的很深

I mean, Bruna and Ferruccio, I think they were loving friends, but they were also employed by her.

我的意思是，布魯娜和費魯基歐，我認為他們是恩愛的朋友，但他們也受僱於她。

And we know that her family took money from her, sued her, threatened her.

我們還知道，她的家人收了她的錢，起訴她，威脅她。

We know the men in her life took advantage of her.

我們知道她生命中的男人佔了她的便宜。

So I don't know if she ever experienced anybody just loving her for her.

所以，我不知道她是否經歷過有人因為她而愛她。

I'm with you.

我支持你。

I don't know if she was truly loved by by others while she was alive.

我不知道她在世時是否真正得到過他人的愛。

I do know that we love her.

我知道我們愛她。

Yes.

是的。

And I have been criticized by certain people, media, whatever, that say that this movie is too reverential towards Maria.

有些人、媒體或其他什麼人責備我，說這部電影過於崇敬瑪麗亞。

And I'm like, yeah, it is.

我想，是的，就是這樣。

Which also tells you what they want is maybe more gossip, more judgment, because it is not a perfect portrait of a perfect person by any means.