They say that breaking up is hard to do, and that seems to be particularly true in many Western countries, where divorce rates have been steadily falling for the last few decades.

俗話說 "分手難"，在許多西方國家似乎尤其如此，在過去幾十年裡，西方國家的離婚率一直在穩步下降。

But why?

但為什麼呢？

On today's episode, we look at some of the main reasons people decide to get divorced, or never get married at all.

在今天的節目中，我們將探討人們決定離婚或從未結婚的一些主要原因。

We consider the effects on families, finances and emotional wellbeing, at a time that some people say is the most stressful in life.

在一些人認為生活壓力最大的時期，我們考慮了對家庭、財務和情緒健康的影響。

With me today is Joanna Gosling, a long-time BBC journalist and presenter who now works as a mediator for couples considering divorce, and Marina Adshade, who is a professor at the Vancouver School of Economics, and regularly contributes to BBC programmes.

今天和我在一起的是喬安娜-高斯林（Joanna Gosling）和瑪麗娜-阿德沙德（Marina Adshade）。喬安娜-高斯林是英國廣播公司（BBC）的長期記者和主持人，現在擔任考慮離婚夫婦的調解員；瑪麗娜-阿德沙德是溫哥華經濟學院（Vancouver School of Economics）的教授，經常為 BBC 節目撰稿。

Lovely to have you both with us.

很高興你們倆能和我們在一起。

Thank you very much for having me.

非常感謝你們邀請我。

It's great to be here.

很高興來到這裡。

Joanna, you sadly left us here at the BBC to pursue a career in mediation.

喬安娜，你遺憾地離開了我們 BBC，轉而從事調解工作。

But why did you choose to work in what must at times be really acrimonious, really tense, that environment, working with couples who are divorcing?

但你為什麼選擇在這種有時一定非常尖銳、非常緊張的環境中工作，為正在離婚的夫婦服務？

Yes, it obviously can be high conflict, it is high conflict, it's dealing with people at the most difficult time of their lives often.

是的，這顯然可能是高度衝突，它是高度衝突，它經常在人們生活最困難的時候與他們打交道。

But I do it because I really care about supporting people through those difficult times and getting them as much as I can through to the other side, so that they can put it behind them and, you know, live their life, a new life, a changed life, but as they want it to be.

但我之所以這樣做，是因為我真的很關心如何支持人們渡過難關，盡我所能幫助他們渡過難關，這樣他們就能放下一切，過上他們想要的生活，一種新的生活，一種改變了的生活。

And Marina, you're at the Vancouver School of Economics.

瑪麗娜，你在溫哥華經濟學院。

Now what's that got to do with divorce?

這和離婚有什麼關係？

Yeah, so I'm an unusual economist.

是啊，所以我是一個不尋常的經濟學家。

I work on the economics of sex and love.

我從事性與愛的經濟學研究。

I've been doing this, gosh, going back like 15 years when I decided to teach an economics course on sex and love for my students, just to get them interested in economics.

我一直在做這件事，天哪，可以追溯到 15 年前，當時我決定為我的學生們講授一門關於性與愛的經濟學課程，只是為了讓他們對經濟學感興趣。

And it's kind of snowballed from there.

從那以後，它就像滾雪球一樣越滾越大。

So the issues that we're going to be talking about today, I've been working on for a long time.

所以，我們今天要討論的問題，我已經研究了很久。

And it's, you know, it is absolutely an economic story, because we know that economics has a big role to play in why people both marry and divorce.

你知道，這絕對是一個經濟故事，因為我們知道，經濟在人們結婚和離婚的原因中扮演著重要角色。

But also because economists have been working on this going back to the 1970s, you know, these issues of why people marry, why people divorce.

不過，這也是因為經濟學家早在 20 世紀 70 年代就開始研究這個問題了，你知道，這些問題涉及人們為什麼結婚、為什麼離婚。

We're going to delve into a lot of these issues.

我們將深入探討這些問題。

But I was surprised to hear that in Western countries, divorce rates are actually on the decline.

但令我驚訝的是，在西方國家，離婚率實際上在下降。

Why do you think that is, Marina?

你認為這是為什麼，瑪麗娜？

Fewer people are getting married.

結婚的人越來越少。

People are getting married when they're older.

人們年紀大了才結婚。

People who marry when they're older are more likely to stay married.

年長時結婚的人更有可能保持婚姻關係。

So this is going to play a big role in it.

是以，這將在其中發揮重要作用。

We've seen a big change in what I call marriage equality, where it used to be that people who were educated and had high incomes married at roughly the same rate as the people who had lower incomes and less education.

過去，受過教育、收入高的人與收入低、教育程度低的人結婚的比例大致相同。

But that's really changed.

但現在真的變了。

So now we're seeing mostly educated people getting married relative to people who are less education and those people tend to stay married.

是以，相對於教育程度較低的人，我們現在看到大多數受過教育的人都結婚了，而且這些人傾向於保持婚姻關係。

Right.

對

So a lot of it has to do with the composition of who is marrying today.

是以，這在很大程度上與當今的婚姻構成有關。

That's the West.

這就是西方。

But if you look at countries like India and China, we're seeing divorce rates go up.

但如果你看看印度和中國這樣的國家，我們看到離婚率正在上升。

I'm actually not surprised that divorce rates appear to be increasing in those countries because those countries that are a different stage of development than many of the countries in the West.

實際上，我對這些國家的離婚率上升並不感到驚訝，因為這些國家的發展階段與許多西方國家不同。

And we did see an increase in divorce rates, say, over the 20th century.

比方說，在 20 世紀，我們確實看到離婚率有所上升。

So you saw an increase in divorce rates and then a decline.

是以，你們看到了離婚率的上升和下降。

And you would expect in countries like India and China, you would have the same pattern.

在印度和中國這樣的國家，也會有同樣的模式。

There was an interesting thing they did in China where they introduced this cooling off period.

中國曾做過一件有趣的事，他們引入了冷卻期。

So the government enforced this.

是以，政府強制執行了這一規定。

Does that work when the government intervenes?

當政府進行干預時，這樣做有用嗎？

If nothing changes in the dynamic between two people being told that they've got to cool off and wait a bit longer, I don't think it's going to make them suddenly realize that they want to be together.

如果兩個人之間的關係沒有任何改變，只是被告知他們必須冷靜下來，再等一等，我不認為這會讓他們突然意識到他們想在一起。

It might be an idea for states to invest in communication programs for these couples because that's invariably why relationships fall apart.

各州不妨為這些夫妻的溝通計劃投資，因為這正是夫妻關係破裂的原因。

And so unless something shifts in that regard, as I say, being told that you've got to stay in it a bit longer for whatever reason isn't going to probably change anyone's mind.

是以，正如我所說的那樣，除非在這方面發生了什麼變化，否則，無論出於什麼原因，被告知你必須在這裡多待一段時間，可能都不會改變任何人的想法。

Marina, what about India?

瑪麗娜，印度怎麼樣？

Because historically divorce is very low in India, but we are starting to see an increase.

因為從歷史上看，印度的離婚率很低，但我們開始看到離婚率在上升。

So, you know, historically in India, many, many marriages were arranged marriages.

所以，你知道，在印度歷史上，很多很多婚姻都是包辦婚姻。

You know, if you go back to the 19, even to the 1990s, more than 90 percent of marriages were arranged marriages.

要知道，如果追溯到 19 世紀，甚至到 20 世紀 90 年代，90% 以上的婚姻都是包辦婚姻。

And arranged marriages do have a tendency to have a significantly lower divorce rate.

而包辦婚姻的離婚率確實有明顯降低的趨勢。

I mean, that might be because, you know, in an arranged marriage, people recognize that they have to work harder to, you know, to work on that communication and forming that they come from more traditional families where divorce isn't really an option.

我的意思是，這可能是因為，你知道，在包辦婚姻中，人們認識到他們必須更加努力，你知道，努力進行溝通，形成他們來自更傳統的家庭，離婚並不是一個真正的選擇。

So we've seen a decline in arranged marriages in India.

是以，我們看到印度的包辦婚姻有所減少。

And at the same time, you start seeing an increase in divorce.

與此同時，離婚率也開始上升。

I don't actually see divorce as a bad thing or even an increase in divorce as a bad thing.

實際上，我並不認為離婚是件壞事，甚至不認為離婚率上升是件壞事。

I mean, there was a lot of people in the West when divorce became easier in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

我的意思是，在 20 世紀 70 年代末和 80 年代初，離婚變得更容易時，西方國家有很多人離婚。

There was a rush to divorce at that point because people were in deeply unhappy marriages and it gave them a chance to get out of those marriages.

當時人們急於離婚，因為人們的婚姻非常不幸福，離婚給了他們擺脫婚姻的機會。

There is research that's being done in the States that says that access to divorce has saved the lives of thousands of women.

美國正在進行的一項研究表明，離婚挽救了成千上萬婦女的生命。

And I'm guessing in India, it's exactly the same.

我猜在印度也是如此。

Women in South Asia often talk about the shame or the stigma that was attached to their ex-wife.

南亞的婦女經常談論她們前妻的恥辱或汙名。

Reham Khan talked about the view of divorced women in Pakistan.

Reham Khan 談到了巴基斯坦離婚婦女的看法。

When a woman gets divorced, I think it's very easy for a community to then jump on the bandwagon and demonize her.

當一個女人離婚時，我認為社會很容易跳出來妖魔化她。

But the woman doesn't have to be a criminal to be going through a divorce or becoming a divorcee is almost like a license for anyone to just start maligning the woman.

但是，女人不一定非得是罪犯，離婚或成為離婚者幾乎就像一張執照，讓任何人都可以開始惡意中傷這個女人。

Joanna, what would be your view on that?

喬安娜，你對此有何看法？

That now, do you think there is still a sense of shame that people feel or a stigma around being divorced?

那現在，你認為人們對離婚還有羞恥感或恥辱感嗎？

I think it would depend on different societies because there will be, obviously, as we've been hearing, different cultural pressures to, first of all, get married and stay married and then the societal pressures.

我認為這取決於不同的社會，因為很明顯，正如我們所聽到的那樣，會有不同的文化壓力，首先是結婚和維持婚姻，然後是社會壓力。

And even in countries where divorce is accepted and there sort of shouldn't be a shame or a stigma, I think that just anecdotally, people often do still feel that.

即使是在離婚被接受、不應該有羞恥感或恥辱感的國家，我認為僅從軼事來看，人們往往仍然會有這種感覺。

Marina, how much of a change is there, though, because people in the West particularly are getting married later?

瑪麗娜，因為西方人的結婚時間越來越晚，這種變化有多大？

People are looking for something different in marriage.

人們在婚姻中尋找不同的東西。

And, you know, I think personally, I think that love is way more important part of marriage now than it was in the past.

而且，我個人認為，與過去相比，現在的愛情是婚姻中更重要的一部分。

And so people marry later.

是以，人們結婚較晚。

They wait until they find somebody that they're really compatible with.

他們要等到找到真正合得來的人。

They wait and find somebody who's going to be their best friend and is going to be a good parent and is going to fulfill all of those needs.

他們在等待，等待找到一個能成為他們最好的朋友，能成為他們的好父母，能滿足他們所有需求的人。

And because of that, people are more likely to stay married because they are choosing more carefully.

正因為如此，人們更有可能保持婚姻關係，因為他們的選擇更加謹慎。

We've been talking about divorce rates falling in the West.

我們一直在談論西方國家離婚率下降的問題。

They're climbing in the Middle East.

他們在中東攀爬。

Egypt's have more than doubled since the process was made easier for women in 2000.

自 2000 年婦女更容易申請移民以來，埃及的申請人數增加了一倍多。

And in a country like Kuwait, more than half of marriages are ending in divorce.

而在科威特這樣的國家，一半以上的婚姻以離婚告終。

That's a rate that's higher than America's.

這一比例高於美國。

And Marina, I wanted to ask you about the pattern of divorce now, whether that's changing in these countries, are we actually seeing it's the women who are often initiating?

瑪麗娜，我想問你關於現在的離婚模式，在這些國家是否正在發生變化，我們是否真的看到是女性主動提出離婚？

You know, I think this is largely always being true.

你知道，我認為這在很大程度上一直是真實的。

But certainly all the areas that we have data from, it's women are way more likely to initiate a divorce when women are more likely to initiate.

但可以肯定的是，在我們掌握數據的所有領域，當女性更有可能提出離婚時，女性更有可能提出離婚。

And then when they're surveyed later, they're more likely to say that they were glad they got divorced.

之後再對他們進行調查時，他們更有可能說他們很慶幸自己離婚了。

Men are much more likely to say they regret the divorce.

男性更有可能說他們後悔離婚。

So it seems to be women's choices that are driving a lot of divorce.

是以，似乎是女性的選擇導致了很多離婚。

Of course, this is universally true, but it's true for something like 70 percent of all divorces.

當然，這是普遍真理，但大約 70% 的離婚案都是如此。

Well, let's dig a bit deeper into why people are getting divorced and what makes divorce more likely.

那麼，讓我們來深入探討一下人們離婚的原因，以及是什麼讓離婚變得更有可能。

Marina, there must be this breaking point moment for many people.

瑪麗娜，很多人都會有這樣的崩潰時刻。

What do you think of the issues that can lead up to that moment?

您如何看待可能導致這一時刻到來的問題？

Personally, I think that one of the main reasons where people get divorced is that they have had a significant change in circumstances and they, you know, they might have had the ideal arrangement at the time that they got married.

我個人認為，人們離婚的一個主要原因是，他們的情況發生了重大變化，你知道，他們在結婚時可能已經有了理想的安排。

But over the course of people's lives, things change.

但在人的一生中，情況會發生變化。

And I think this is true for a lot of marriages because people's situation changes over their lives.

我認為很多婚姻都是如此，因為人的一生中情況會發生變化。

Maybe they want children and maybe they change their minds.

也許他們想要孩子，也許他們會改變主意。

Maybe they want to live in one location and the other person doesn't want to live in that location.

也許他們想住在一個地方，而對方不想住在那個地方。

And I think it's those things that are just very difficult to resolve where it no longer becomes the arrangement that people entered into originally.

我認為這些問題很難解決，因為它們不再是人們最初達成的協議。

You're nodding a lot.

你經常點頭。

Yeah.

是啊

And a lot of what I come across is people whose children are that bit older and they'll suddenly be like, we have just been focused on the children and focused on everything else and not focusing on each other.

我遇到的很多情況是，孩子們長大了，他們會突然說，我們只關注孩子，關注其他一切，而沒有關注彼此。

And then there's that moment where it's just like, actually, what is there left between us?

然後有那麼一刻，我們之間還剩下什麼？

And that's when the divorce will often hit.

而離婚往往就在這個時候發生。

What about the financial entanglement?

經濟糾紛又是怎麼回事？

How problematic can that be during a divorce?

這在離婚期間會有多大問題？

And how much is that also a reason that people choose to stay together?

這也是人們選擇在一起的原因嗎？

Mm hmm.

嗯

Yeah.

是啊

Often people do choose to stay together because it is extremely difficult to suddenly split the pot to sustain two households.

人們通常會選擇在一起，因為突然要分錢來維持兩個家庭的生活是非常困難的。

And then working out how you split up things when it's, you know, it's material assets often, but they have an enormous emotional pull.

然後再想辦法把物質財富拆分開來，你知道，物質財富往往是物質財富，但它們卻有著巨大的情感牽引力。

Marina, I feel like I know about prenups from watching too much American TV growing up, but are they becoming more common?

瑪麗娜，我覺得我知道婚前協議，因為我從小看了太多的美國電視，但它們變得越來越普遍了嗎？

I always tell my classes of students, if you get married, you should have a prenup.

我總是告訴我的學生們，如果你們結婚，就應該簽訂婚前協議。

And they really this really surprises them.

他們真的很驚訝。

But, you know, we it's a big economic decision.

但是，你知道，這是一個重大的經濟決策。

It's a big financial decision to get married.

結婚是一個重大的財務決定。

And it makes sense to enter into a marriage, having some type of contract in place about what happens if that marriage is dissolved.

在締結婚姻時，就婚姻解體後的情況簽訂某種契約也是合情合理的。

So they are becoming far more common.

是以，它們變得越來越常見。

There's also big variations around the world on to how assets are shared.

世界各地的資產共享方式也大不相同。

So, for example, a lot of places, the assets you bring into the marriage, you allowed to take out of the marriage.

是以，舉例來說，在很多地方，你帶入婚姻的資產，也允許你帶出婚姻。

Statistically, Marina, are there other factors that mean a couple is more likely to get divorced?

根據統計，瑪麗娜，是否有其他因素意味著一對夫婦更有可能離婚？

One of the big determinants of whether or not people divorce is whether or not there's a big age gap.

決定人們是否離婚的一個重要因素是年齡差距是否過大。

So once you get beyond six years, you have an increased risk of divorce.

是以，一旦超過六年，離婚的風險就會增加。

Another thing that increases divorce is cross-cultural marriages have a tendency to have higher divorce rates, I think possibly because they don't get the same level of familial support.

另一個增加離婚率的原因是，跨文化婚姻的離婚率往往較高，我認為這可能是因為他們得不到同等程度的家庭支持。

Does the length of the marriage make a difference?

婚姻存續時間長短有區別嗎？

People in their 30s are less likely to get divorced than people in their 40s.

30 多歲的人比 40 多歲的人更不容易離婚。

People in their 50s are actually more likely to get divorced.

50 多歲的人其實更容易離婚。

And then after that, it starts to taper off.

之後就開始逐漸減少。

So I think there is really a very strong children growing up phenomenon.

是以，我認為確實存在著一種非常強烈的兒童成長現象。

And if you've been married more than once, twice, three times, does that make I mean, does that make it more likely that you're going to divorce?

如果你結過一次、兩次、三次以上的婚，這是否會讓我的意思是，這是否會讓你更有可能離婚？

The probability of divorce, if it's your second marriage or your third marriage, is much higher.

如果是第二次婚姻或第三次婚姻，離婚的概率要高得多。

And actually, it's also true that if people have not just been married, but have had like multiple cohabitating relationships.

實際上，如果人們不只是結過婚，而是有過多次同居關係，這也是事實。

How does divorce, it's a very general question, obviously, but how does it affect children?

顯然，這是一個非常籠統的問題，但離婚對孩子有什麼影響？

Researching people who are now adults and the impact of their own parents' divorce on them, the damage is often caused where children don't get to make the choices.

通過研究現已成年的人以及父母離婚對他們的影響，我們發現，如果子女無法做出選擇，往往會造成傷害。

Life is completely changing.

生活完全改變了。

And if they're not heard in that and they don't feel that they've got autonomy, that's really where the damage can set in.

如果沒有人傾聽他們的心聲，讓他們覺得自己沒有自主權，那才是真正的傷害。

You might remember Gwyneth Paltrow, Chris Martin talking about conscious uncoupling.

你可能還記得格溫妮絲-帕特洛（Gwyneth Paltrow）和克里斯-馬丁（Chris Martin）在談論有意識地解除夫妻關係。

And the reason that they wanted to do it that way was so that they really could do the best for their children in terms of saying, OK, this is going to be different, but we're going to work together to make sure that it's as comfortable as it can be for you.

他們之所以想這樣做，是為了能真正為孩子們做到最好，他們會說："好吧，情況會有所不同，但我們會一起努力，確保讓你們住得儘可能舒適。

Joanna, you raised it before I could, conscious uncoupling.

喬安娜，你比我先提出來，有意識地解除耦合。

Do people come to you and use that phrase?

人們來找你時會用到這句話嗎？

Is it something that has taken off as an idea or has it been beneficial?

這是否是一個已經起飛的想法？

I am not sure how much of an idea, how much it has taken off as an idea, actually.

我不確定這個想法有多大的影響力，也不確定它作為一個想法有多大的影響力。

I think when they were getting divorced and they were talking about it, there was quite a lot of derision around it.

我想，當他們離婚並談論這件事的時候，有很多人都在嘲笑他們。

And, you know, we're talking about societal expectations, cultural expectations around marriage.

而且，你知道，我們談論的是社會的期望、文化對婚姻的期望。

There are also those around divorce and what divorce looks like and how divorce is portrayed in the media and the high profile couples that we see having very difficult divorces.

此外，還有離婚、離婚的樣子、媒體對離婚的描述，以及我們看到的高調離婚的夫婦。

It is an enormous shift to say, OK, let's have those good conversations.

說 "好吧，讓我們好好談談 "是一個巨大的轉變。

Let's really put this family at the centre of everyone's care on this.

讓我們真正把這個家庭放在所有人關注的中心。

Do you think some of these high profile divorces kind of skew the conversation at times as well?

你是否認為這些高調的離婚有時也會歪曲話題？

It's interesting because people have this perception that, you know, very wealthy people or celebrities or Hollywood stars are more likely to get divorced than everybody else.

這很有趣，因為人們有這樣一種觀念，你知道，非常富有的人或名人或好萊塢明星比其他人更容易離婚。

But they're actually less likely to get divorced than everybody else.

但實際上，他們比其他人更不容易離婚。

What about the rise in divorce in some countries which have been a bit more oppressive in the past?

在一些過去比較壓抑的國家，離婚率上升又是怎麼回事呢？

Has it been liberating for women?

婦女解放了嗎？

It has been extremely good and it's been extremely good for women to be able to leave relationships where they're in abusive situations or oppressive situations or they just don't have the autonomy that we would expect women to have in our societies.

這對婦女來說是非常好的，她們能夠擺脫虐待或壓迫她們的關係，或者她們只是沒有我們期望婦女在我們的社會中擁有的自主權。

The numbers of women's lives that have been saved by the change to more accessible divorce is staggering.

更方便的離婚方式挽救了多少婦女的生命，這個數字是驚人的。

Marina, if there are listeners out there who are considering a divorce, what would be your best piece of advice?

瑪麗娜，如果有聽眾正在考慮離婚，你的最佳建議是什麼？

One of the things I've always really struggled with is the idea that a successful marriage is one that ends when somebody dies.

我一直很糾結的一個問題是，有人認為成功的婚姻就是在有人死後才會結束。

And I actually would love it if we could just move away from that and recognise that you can have successful marriages that end in divorce, right?