Yeah, no, that's not fair.

是啊，不，這不公平。

Sorry about that.

很抱歉。

She's in the book.

她在書裡

So, well, Theresa is occasionally a bit starchy, but with a very warm heart beneath it.

是以，特雷莎偶爾會有點悶悶不樂，但她的內心卻非常溫暖。

You say in the book, 350 million on the side of a bus, you said it was good that it was disputed because it meant it was talked about more.

你在《公共汽車邊上的 3.5 億美元》一書中說，有爭議是好事，因為這意味著人們會更多地討論這個問題。

And we know, I would put this to you, that a disputed fact is more useful to you in a campaign than an absolutely objectively true fact.

我們知道，我想告訴你的是，在競選中，有爭議的事實比絕對客觀真實的事實更有用。

What it says, what is absolutely objectively true is that 350 million, actually, which is an underestimate, if you look at the figures that were projected, it was going to go up to probably 420 at least, or maybe 450 by 2020.

它所說的，絕對客觀真實的是，3.5 億人，實際上，這是一個低估的數字，如果你看一下預測的數字，到 2020 年可能至少會增加到 4.2 億人，或者可能是 4.5 億人。

And that was the gross figure, as we said repeatedly in that campaign.

正如我們在競選活動中反覆強調的那樣，這是一個總數字。

And yes, it was true that to calculate the net figure, the figure that was sent to Brussels, for Brussels to spend on Spanish bullfighting or tobacco farms or whatever the hell it happened to be, you had to cut it in half.

沒錯，為了計算出淨額，也就是送到布魯塞爾的數字，讓布魯塞爾花在西班牙鬥牛或菸草農場或其他什麼地方，你必須把它減半。

And it was probably about 175 million.

大概有 1.75 億美元。

There was then 175 million that was spent in the UK at the discretion of Brussels that we did not control.

當時，有 1.75 億美元是由布魯塞爾決定在英國使用的，我們無法控制。

Therefore, and by this time people's eyes had glazed over, but you were making the point that huge sums were being spent in a way that the UK electorate did not control.

是以，此時人們的眼睛已經瞪得溜圓，但你提出的觀點是，鉅額資金的使用方式是英國選民無法控制的。

And it was very, very important to get that point over.

把這一點說清楚是非常非常重要的。

And that sum would have continued to increase.

而且這一數額還會繼續增加。

And by the way, by the way, thanks to Brexit, we've been able to get that back.

順便說一句，多虧了英國脫歐，我們才得以恢復。

And just to, I don't wanna, you know, harp on about this BBC interview yesterday, but he then tried to dispute another claim, which was about the vaccine rollout.

而且，我不想，你知道的，喋喋不休地談論英國廣播公司昨天的採訪，但他隨後試圖反駁另一個說法，那是關於疫苗推廣的。

And he said, well, under, we hadn't actually yet left the EU at the end of 2020.

他說，好吧，在 2020 年底時，我們實際上還沒有脫離歐盟。

Actually, we had left the EU.

事實上，我們已經脫離了歐盟。

We'd come out of the EU.

我們會退出歐盟。

And I just want you, Stig, with all your Olympian impartiality and fairness to accept this point, because I think it's so, so unjust.

斯迪格，我希望你能以奧林匹克的公正和公平接受這一點，因為我認為這太不公平了。

And so the people still quibble about it.

是以，人們仍然對此爭論不休。

And so, so important.

而且如此重要。

It was because we were out of the European Medicines Agency that we were able to licence vaccines faster and save lives.

正是因為我們脫離了歐洲藥品管理局，我們才能更快地獲得疫苗許可，拯救生命。

So by March- You could have done that with a national regulator.

是以，到三月份，你就可以通過國家監管機構來實現這一目標了。

Sorry, but then why, okay, here's the question.

對不起，但為什麼呢？

Why did 27 other countries remaining in the EU, why did the Pasteur Institute of France, the Max Planck Institute of Germany, why did they not do that?

為什麼留在歐盟的其他 27 個國家，為什麼法國巴斯德研究所、德國馬克斯-普朗克研究所沒有這樣做？

Why did they all wait weeks and weeks- So the argument you're making is a psychological one, which is about groupthink, which I understand, but technically- No, it's not about groupthink, it's about the power, it's about the power of the commission and the way the system works.

為什麼他們都要等上幾周幾周-- 所以你的論點是心理上的，是關於群體思維的，這我理解，但從技術上講-- 不，這不是群體思維的問題，這是關於權力的問題，是關於委員會的權力和系統的運作方式的問題。

And no country, I can tell you, no country in the EU would have done that.

我可以告訴你，歐盟沒有一個國家會這麼做。

People will con- And people know that.

人們知道這一點。

People may concede that point.

人們可能會承認這一點。

If you will concede- I want you to concede it.

如果你承認--我希望你承認。

Concede it.

認輸吧

If you will concede, Boris, that you could have done it- I concede no points.

如果你承認，鮑里斯，你本可以做到這一點--我不承認任何觀點。

What are you going to concede?

你打算讓步什麼？

What do you want me to concede?

你想讓我承認什麼？

I want you to concede that you could have done it if we were still in the EU, you could have done it using the national regulator, but you could have done it.

我希望你們承認，如果我們還在歐盟，你們本可以這樣做，你們本可以利用國家監管機構這樣做，但你們本可以這樣做。

You were legally able to do it.

你可以合法地這麼做。

If you'd had a Brexiteer government- You could have done it.

如果你有一個脫歐派政府，你本可以做到的。

That was on the point of leaving the EU finally and formally anyway- My point is- Then you would have done what we did.

無論如何，這都是在最終正式脫離歐盟的情況下發生的--我的觀點是--那麼你們就會像我們一樣做。

So legally and technically, you could have done it.

是以，從法律上和技術上講，你可以這麼做。

It would never have happened.

這根本不可能發生。

And by the way, not only that, we would have remained within the EU.

順便說一句，不僅如此，我們還會留在歐盟內。

And this, because this is a sort of total, total nonsense, and people need to understand, we would have remained not just in the EU vaccine licensing procedures under the European Medicines Agency, but we would also have been within the EU vaccine procurement process, which would have been totally chaotic.

這完全是無稽之談，人們需要明白，我們不僅會繼續留在歐洲藥品管理局上司下的歐盟疫苗許可程序中，而且還會繼續留在歐盟疫苗採購程序中，而這將會是一個完全混亂的過程。

And so the result was, and I know it's tough to accept this, but it's true.

結果就是，我知道這很難接受，但這是事實。

The result was that because we'd fully taken back control of our legislation and our regulation, and as I explained in Unleashed, that was because we believed in a model of British independence, because we had basically believed in Britain, we were able to vaccinate people faster than any other European country.

結果是，由於我們完全收回了對立法和監管的控制權，正如我在《釋放》一書中所解釋的，這是因為我們相信英國獨立的模式，因為我們基本上相信英國，所以我們能夠比任何其他歐洲國家更快地為人們接種疫苗。

Let me remind our viewers or listeners, anybody who's still tuning in, of the figures. 45% of all adults by March, 2021, almost everybody over 80, 90, 100% of those over 80 in the UK, huge levels of protection already by March.

讓我提醒我們的觀眾或聽眾，任何仍在收聽的人，注意這些數字。到 2021 年 3 月，45% 的成年人，幾乎所有 80 歲以上的人，英國 80 歲以上的人中有 90%，100% 的人，到 3 月已經達到了很高的保護水準。

In the EU, because of their relative slowness, because they waited for the EMA, they'd done 10%, right, 10%.

在歐盟，由於他們的相對緩慢，由於他們等待 EMA，他們已經完成了 10%，對，10%。

So, and this was a time when hundreds of people were dying every day.

是以，當時每天都有成百上千的人死去。

You know, January, actually, we had maybe 1,000 people dying every day something.

實際上，一月份，我們每天可能有 1000 人死亡。

And I wanna get to COVID.

我想去 COVID。

Now, what we were able to do, therefore, was of material benefit to elderly and vulnerable people.

是以，我們所能做的就是為老年人和弱勢群體帶來物質利益。

And that's the case.

情況就是這樣。

And so what I'm setting out in this book is an argument about, you know, we went through all the psycho drama of Brexit and people's worries about it, and all the rest of it.

是以，我在這本書中提出的論點是，你知道，我們經歷了英國脫歐的所有心理劇，以及人們對此的擔憂，還有所有其他的一切。

And what I'm trying to say is, almost immediately after we'd done it, in a way that nobody predicted or expected, it actually delivered a material benefit.

我想說的是，幾乎就在我們完成這項工作之後，以一種無人預測或預料到的方式，它確實帶來了實質性的好處。

And you've made the case there about vaccinations, but the model of Britishness that you talk about, the success of Brexit that you talk about in the book is not a view shared now by the majority of your fellow citizens.

你在書中提到的英國模式、英國脫歐的成功，現在並不為大多數同胞所認同。

Most people think Brexit has not been done properly.

大多數人都認為英國脫歐沒有做好。

Most people, wait till I finish, think that it has not worked, that it can't work.

大多數人，等我說完，都認為它沒有奏效，不可能奏效。

If there was a referendum tomorrow morning, Leave would lose and would lose soundly.

如果明天早上舉行公投，脫歐派會輸，而且會輸得很慘。

Because the model of Britishness- I see, go on.

因為英國的模式--我明白了，繼續。

But the model of Britishness you're talking about has not worked.

但你所說的英國模式並不奏效。

You have not convinced your fellow citizens.

你沒有說服你的同胞。

And do you know what they think, Boris Johnson?

你知道他們怎麼想嗎，鮑里斯-約翰遜？

They think you didn't know how it was going to work.

他們認為你不知道該怎麼做。

And so it became that you couldn't control it after it had happened.

於是，事情發生後你就無法控制了。

Well, that's complete nonsense.

這完全是無稽之談。

So first of all, your first assertion there, which is total nonsense, is that if there were a referendum tomorrow, then Leave would inevitably lose or people would vote to rejoin.

是以，首先，你的第一個斷言完全是無稽之談，那就是如果明天舉行公投，那麼脫歐將不可避免地失敗，或者人們會投票重新加入脫歐。

That's what you're- No, no, I'm not saying vote to rejoin.

不，不，我不是說投票重新加入。

The last poll I've seen on this, Remain would win 55-31.

我看到的最後一次民意調查顯示，留歐派將以 55 比 31 的比分獲勝。

So you think that people would vote to rejoin?

那麼你認為人們會投票重新加入嗎？

I think if you had the vote again, it would be very, very different.

我想，如果再讓你投票一次，情況會大不一樣。

So, say on, so the hypothesis is, your hypothesis is, that now, having- If you had your vote, the question is if you had your vote again.

所以，你的假設是，如果你有了自己的投票權，問題是你是否還擁有自己的投票權。

It's not to necessarily rejoin.

不一定要重新加入。

Let's say rejoin.

比方說，重新加入。

Well, how can you- Well, it's a hypothetical poll.

這只是個假設性的民意調查。

I don't see what you're saying.

我不明白你在說什麼。

In order to vote for joining the EU, I mean, we're out of the EU now, right?

為了投票支持加入歐盟，我的意思是，我們現在已經退出歐盟了，對嗎？

So you're imagining a vote in which people vote to rejoin the EU.

所以你是在想象一場投票，讓人們投票重新加入歐盟。

So you think you've convinced most people in this country of the success of Brexit?

你認為你已經說服了這個國家的大多數人，讓他們相信英國脫歐是成功的？

So, I'm just trying to understand what you're saying.

所以，我只是想弄明白你在說什麼。

You're saying that the people of this country would now vote to rejoin the EU.

你是說，這個國家的人民現在會投票重新加入歐盟。

Let me tell you why I think that's- 51%, let me tell you another fact. 51% of people say the negatives of Brexit outweigh the benefits.

讓我告訴你為什麼我這麼認為--51%，讓我告訴你另一個事實。51%的人認為英國脫歐利大於弊。

Is that what you're now saying?

你現在是這個意思嗎？

I'm not saying this.

我不是這個意思。

You got polled recently- Are you saying that people- say the negatives of Brexit outweigh the benefits?

你最近接受了民意調查，你是說人們認為英國脫歐的負面影響大於正面影響？

I was told that you were a very kind of gentle, sort of ruminative type of interviewer.

有人告訴我，你是一位非常溫和、有點反思型的採訪者。

I'm interested in a ruminative interview, Boris.

我對反思性採訪很感興趣，鮑里斯。

We started this interview with you picking a fight that I didn't even start.

採訪一開始，你就挑起了一場根本不是我挑起的爭吵。

Okay, that's true.

好吧，這倒是真的。

I put my hands up for that one.

我舉雙手贊成。

Okay, I'm guilty of that.

好吧，我也有罪。

Okay, but listen, seriously, on your point about another referendum.

好吧，但聽著，說真的，關於你說的另一次全民公決。

Let's put it this way.

這麼說吧

Another referendum, right?

又一次全民公決，對嗎？

Now, the choice for the British people is, given that we're now out, the choice is between going back in or staying where we are, right?

現在，英國人民的選擇是，既然我們已經退出，那麼我們的選擇是回到英國，還是留在英國，對嗎？

And you think you can convince people?

你以為你能說服別人？

So, you've got to imagine, Stig, you've got to imagine that you, as a proud, passionate Remainer, can convince the British people to go back into the European Union and hand over 20 billion quid a year, much of it to be spent by Brussels in the EU, all of it to be controlled by Brussels.

所以，斯迪格，你一定要想象，你作為一個自豪、熱情的留歐派，能夠說服英國人民回到歐盟，每年交出200億英鎊，其中大部分由布魯塞爾在歐盟內使用，全部由布魯塞爾控制。

You've got to imagine that the price that what they get in exchange is giving up control of their legislation, their regulation, again, giving up control of their laws, giving up control of their borders, going back to unrestricted free movement with the EU, and giving up control of their monetary policy, and, because those are the rules of rejoining the EU, giving up the pound sterling in favour of the Euro.

你必須想象，他們換取的代價是放棄對立法和監管的控制權，再次放棄對法律的控制權，放棄對邊界的控制權，回到與歐盟無限制的自由流動，放棄對貨幣政策的控制權，而且，因為這些是重新加入歐盟的規則，所以放棄英鎊而改用歐元。

Now, you've got to, that's the case that you would have to make.

現在，你必須這樣做。

So, the bridge has been burned, as a fact of what you're saying.

所以，從你所說的事實來看，這座橋已經被燒燬了。

And so, what I'm suggesting to you, that the very first assertion that you made that people would vote to rejoin the EU is, I think, completely mistaken.

是以，我想說的是，你一開始就斷言人們會投票重新加入歐盟，我認為這是完全錯誤的。

Completely mistaken.

完全弄錯了。

People wouldn't do that, okay.

人們不會那麼做的

And I don't think they would do that.

我認為他們不會這麼做。

Tell us a story from...

給我們講一個故事

And so, on things like immigration, where, you know, I've got to put my hands up and say that after the pandemic, we faced a huge problem.

是以，在移民等問題上，我必須舉起雙手說，在大流行病之後，我們面臨著一個巨大的問題。

I mean, immigration clearly gone off the cliff during the pandemic, and the numbers went massively down.

我的意思是，在大流行病期間，移民數量明顯下降。

But, after the pandemic, the issue that we faced was inflation.

但是，大流行病之後，我們面臨的問題是通貨膨脹。

And you will recall what happened.

你會記得發生了什麼。

We didn't have anybody to stack the shelves.

我們沒有人堆放貨架。

We had serious price inflation.

我們的物價上漲嚴重。

We had massive labour cost inflation.

我們的勞動力成本大幅上漲。

We didn't have any fuel drivers.

我們沒有燃料司機。

And every single business group, every single secretary of state was saying, you know, we need the labour force.

每一個商業團體、每一位國務卿都在說，你知道，我們需要勞動力。

And so, I don't think it was, you know, it was perfectly understandable.

是以，我不認為這是，你知道，這是完全可以理解的。

The migration...

遷移...

You opened the doors to what?

你打開了什麼之門？

You opened the doors to what?

你打開了什麼之門？

Well, I think the advisory committee on, in some sectors, social care and others, decided that we had no choice.

我認為，在某些領域，如社會護理和其他領域，諮詢委員會認為我們別無選擇。

But...

但是

Let's put this in plain English.

讓我們用通俗易懂的英語來解釋一下。

You opened the doors to what?

你打開了什麼之門？

I think that we did in that year, 2022, because we were desperate to contain inflation.

我認為，在 2022 年那一年，我們確實這樣做了，因為我們急於遏制通脹。

Inflation is a massive destroyer of people's livelihoods and of economic, of hope, of investment, of growth.

通貨膨脹是民生、經濟、希望、投資和增長的巨大破壞者。

Inflation is a disaster for the UK.

通貨膨脹是英國的災難。

I remember it from my childhood in the 70s.

我還記得 70 年代的童年時光。

And people, I think people understand that.

我想人們都明白這一點。

People understand that.

人們明白這一點。

So we had to beat it.

所以我們必須打敗它。

But the beauty of the position, Stig, let's get back to Brexit.

但立場之美，斯迪格，讓我們回到英國脫歐吧。

I want to move on from Brexit if I can.

如果可以的話，我想擺脫英國脫歐的陰影。

I know, but...

我知道，但是...

You started off on Brexit.

你一開始說的是英國脫歐。

I wanted to say whether the PG Woodhouse influenced your writing style.

我想知道 PG Woodhouse 是否影響了您的寫作風格。

And we're coming to have a 10-minute row about Brexit.

我們將就英國脫歐問題進行十分鐘的討論。

We'll get to...

我們會...

We might as well have our crosswords first.

我們還是先做填字遊戲吧。

But you did, you talk about the pandemic.

但你確實談到了大流行病。

Let's talk about the pandemic.

讓我們來談談大流行病。

COVID chapter's obviously a major part of the book.

COVID 章顯然是本書的重要組成部分。

There's a slight feeling in them, Boris Johnson, that a bit of an extended plea.

鮑里斯-約翰遜，他們有一種輕微的感覺，有點像延長的懇求。

It wasn't me, Gov, who's responsible for this.

不是我乾的，戈夫。

Hang on, Stig, have you actually read all this book?

等等，斯迪格，你真的讀過這本書嗎？

I've read all this book.

這本書我都讀過。

Have you read all the bits where I put my hands up and say what I think?

你讀過我舉手發言的部分嗎？

You can't forget how you put your hands up.

你不能忘記你是如何舉起雙手的。

All I'm saying is, tell us now one thing you'd do differently when it comes to the pandemic, with the benefit of hindsight.

我想說的是，請你事後告訴我們，在面對大流行病時，你會有什麼不同的做法。

Well, folks, it's in the book, as you will read it unleashed.

好了，夥計們，書中就有，你們將讀到它的釋放。

Our listeners have not read the book, that's why we're having this interview.

我們的聽眾還沒有讀過這本書，所以我們才進行了這次採訪。

Oh, well, there's lots of things I would have done differently.

哦，好吧，如果是我，會有很多不同的做法。

Give us a substantive one.

給我們一個實質性的問題。

Well, I think that, you know, the most important thing is that we need in future, as a country, I mean, you know, we are gonna get another plague, another pestilence that may kill different demographic groups, and we're going to be challenged with the problem of how to stop transmission of a disease we can't see.

我認為，最重要的是，作為一個國家，我們需要在未來，我的意思是，你知道，我們會得到另一種瘟疫，另一種可能殺死不同人口群體的瘟疫，我們將面臨如何阻止我們無法看到的疾病傳播的問題。

And the same arguments are going to be made again about lockdowns.

關於封鎖，人們又會提出同樣的論點。

And we're going to need to know to what extent lockdowns, the NPIs, non-pharmaceutical interventions, actually bend the epi curve, and to what extent the bending of the epi curve happens naturally.

我們需要知道，禁藥、NPIs、非藥物干預措施在多大程度上能使癲癇曲線發生彎曲，以及癲癇曲線的彎曲在多大程度上是自然發生的。

Yeah.

是啊

And do we know that now?

我們現在知道了嗎？

We don't know that now.

我們現在還不知道。

Why do we not know that now?

為什麼我們現在還不知道呢？

Well, I don't know that now.

我現在不知道了。

Maybe you know that.

也許你知道。

No, I don't, but why don't we know that now?

不，我不知道，但為什麼我們現在不知道呢？

Because I think it's very, very difficult to evaluate.

因為我認為這很難評估。

And I think that, you know, I've seen some papers that the scientists have done, you know, the General Royal Society and so on.

我認為，你知道，我已經看到了科學家們所做的一些論文，你知道，英國皇家學會等等。

It's very thin stuff, very, very thin stuff.

這是非常薄的東西，非常非常薄的東西。

So do you think there might be lockdowns again in that world if we don't know?

那麼，如果我們不知道，你認為那個世界會再次出現封鎖嗎？

Look, I think we need, I think as a country, as a world, you know, because everybody's tried to do roughly the same thing.

聽著，我認為我們需要，我認為作為一個國家，作為一個世界，你知道，因為每個人都試圖做大致相同的事情。

You know, even the Swedes had a, you know, version of the NPIs, you know.

你知道，甚至瑞典人也有一個 NPIs 版本。

We need to work out to what extent the benefits of the restriction on transmission you get from lockdown are, outweigh the disbenefits to the loss of education and so on.

我們需要搞清楚，在多大程度上，封鎖對傳輸的限制所帶來的好處會超過教育等方面的損失所帶來的壞處。

Because closing schools, I say in Unleashed, closing schools is a really, really hard thing to do.

因為關閉學校，我在《解脫》中說過，關閉學校是一件非常非常困難的事情。

And it's maybe the wrong thing to do.

也許這樣做是不對的。

And maybe, Stig, it was.

也許，斯迪格，確實如此。

And so what I'm saying is in all intellectual honesty, that is, you know, the thing, maybe we should have, we need to know.