Matthew, you know, when you think about how all this happened, and I referenced, you know, changes at the FSB's Fifth Service, you also have, as so central to this, we know Vladimir

馬修，你知道，當你思考這一切是如何發生的，我提到，你知道，在聯邦安全局第五處的變化，你也有，作為如此核心，我們知道弗拉基米爾

Putin wanted the return of an assassin who was serving a life sentence in Germany, Vadym

普京希望遣返一名在德國服無期徒刑的刺客，瓦德姆

Krasikov, and that there were some in the German government who did not want to do this.

克拉西科夫，而德國政府中有些人並不想這樣做。

And all these pieces and players had to come into place at the right time, with the right conversations, for this to happen.

所有這些環節和參與者都必須在正確的時間、通過正確的對話才能實現。

But yet, ultimately, Matthew, Vladimir Putin had to say yes.

但最終，馬修-弗拉基米爾-普京不得不說 "是"。

And why do you think he said yes now?

你認為他為什麼現在才答應？

I think this is a great deal for Vladimir Putin.

我認為這對弗拉基米爾-普京來說是一筆很好的交易。

He has managed to basically get back a Kremlin assassin, a colonel in the FSB, who killed in broad daylight a Chechen dissident in the center of the German capital.

他成功地抓回了一名克里姆林宮的殺手，他是聯邦安全局的一名上校，光天化日之下在德國首都市中心殺害了一名車臣持不同政見者。

In exchange, as well as a lot of other people as well, who Russia is interested in and may have information that Russia wants to keep to itself and not be disclosed to its rivals.

作為交換，俄羅斯對許多其他人也感興趣，這些人可能掌握著俄羅斯希望保密而不向對手透露的資訊。

In exchange for a group of individuals who, for all intents and purposes, did nothing wrong, people like Evan Gershkovich, who was doing his job as a journalist.

換來的是一群無論如何都沒有做錯事的人，比如埃文-格什科維奇（Evan Gershkovich），他只是做了一名記者的本職工作。

He was accused and convicted of espionage, of spying for the CIA, but he categorically denied it, as did the U.S.

他被指控為中央情報局從事間諜活動並被定罪，但他斷然否認，美國方面也矢口否認。

government. Paul Whelan as well, this former Marine who's been in a Russian jail for the best part of the past six years.

政府還有保羅-惠蘭，這位前海軍陸戰隊員 在過去六年的大部分時間裡 都被關在俄羅斯的監獄裡

He was in Moscow attending a wedding and he was accused and convicted and sentenced to 16 years for spying as well.

他當時正在莫斯科參加一場婚禮，結果也被指控從事間諜活動，並被定罪和判刑 16 年。

And so, yes, this is a big tactical victory on the part of the United States.

是以，是的，這是美國的一次重大戰術勝利。

They're bringing these people home.

他們要把這些人帶回家。

But strategically, this is a vindication, I think, for Vladimir Putin of his strategy of taking bargaining chips and using them to extract as big a concession as possible from the United States and from the West at large.

但從戰略上講，我認為這是對弗拉基米爾-普京戰略的一次平反，他的戰略是利用討價還價的籌碼，從美國和整個西方國家那裡獲得儘可能大的讓步。

And so, you know, this is a an important day.

是以，你知道，這是一個重要的日子。

It's an emotional day, but it's also a day that has involved a substantial amount of moral compromise on the part of the West to get these people back.

這是一個激動人心的日子，但也是西方國家為救回這些人而在道義上做出巨大妥協的日子。

Let's get some perspective from our experts now.

現在讓我們聽聽專家們的觀點。

We're joined by CNN chief national security correspondent Alex Marquardt, alongside CNN global affairs analyst Kimberly Dozier.

CNN首席國家安全記者亞歷克斯-馬夸特（Alex Marquardt）和CNN全球事務分析員金伯利-多齊爾（Kimberly Dozier）為我們帶來了報道。

And we're also joined by NATO's former Supreme Allied Commander General Wesley Clark.

北約前盟軍最高司令韋斯利-克拉克將軍也將參與我們的討論。

Thank you all for being with us, Alex.

謝謝大家，亞歷克斯。

Take us through how the next few hours are going to play out when these prisoners finally get to the United States.

當這些囚犯最終到達美國時，接下來的幾個小時會發生什麼？

So thankfully, we're past the hardest part.

幸好，我們已經度過了最困難的時期。

The exchange has taken place.

交換已經進行。

The prisoners are heading home to their respective countries.

囚犯們正在返回各自的國家。

When it comes to the United States, they are going to be coming home and then offered medical and psychological services.

到了美國，他們將返回家園，然後獲得醫療和心理服務。

Now, MJ mentioned there that President Biden is expected to to go out to Andrews, Joint

現在，MJ在那裡提到，拜登總統預計將前往安德魯斯聯合空軍基地。

Base Andrews.

安德魯斯基地

So we could see these four, the three Americans plus Vladimir Karamuza, who is a green card holder, coming to the East Coast.

是以，我們可以看到這四個人，三個美國人加上持有綠卡的弗拉基米爾-卡拉穆扎，來到東海岸。

But they will be offered the opportunity to go out to San Antonio, Texas.

但他們將有機會前往得克薩斯州的聖安東尼奧。

The Brooke Army Medical Center is part of the biggest defense department complex in their system.

布魯克陸軍醫療中心是其系統中最大的國防部門綜合體的一部分。

And they have a special program called PISA, P-I-S-A, that is designed to help people essentially get back on their feet after traumatic events.

他們有一個名為 PISA（P-I-S-A）的特殊項目，旨在幫助人們在經歷創傷事件後重新站起來。

This is something that Brittany Griner, for example, went through and Trevor Reed was offered.

例如，布列塔尼-格里納就經歷過這種情況，特雷弗-裡德也得到了邀請。

And so oftentimes we will see people landing in San Antonio, Texas.

是以，我們經常會看到有人在得克薩斯州的聖安東尼奧降落。

I think that the obviously family reunions are going to be their biggest priority.

我認為，家庭團聚顯然將是他們最優先考慮的事情。

We saw some of the family members there with President Biden.

我們看到一些家庭成員與拜登總統在一起。

And so after that, they will be given all of the necessary things that they will that they may need to adjust and get back on their feet.

在此之後，他們將獲得所有必要的幫助，以適應並重新站立起來。

So this is a tremendously happy moment.

是以，這是一個非常幸福的時刻。

Obviously, Paul Whelan's family waiting for almost six years since he was arrested in 2018.

顯然，自 2018 年保羅-惠蘭被捕以來，他的家人等待了近六年。

Evan Gershkovich's family having to deal with his conviction last month to 16 years in a

埃文-格什科維奇（Evan Gershkovich）的家人不得不面對他上個月被判處 16 年監禁的事實。

Russian penal colony.

俄羅斯刑罰殖民地。

Thankfully, just over a month later, he and the other three are coming back to the U.S.

值得慶幸的是，僅僅一個多月後，他和其他三人就回到了美國。

And the details of just the scope of this and the secrecy of it, Kim, fascinating, as

金，這其中的細節和保密程度令人著迷。

The Wall Street Journal has reported this.

華爾街日報》對此進行了報道。

In the wake of Alexei Navalny's death, there was this shuttle diplomacy of paper only proposals that were being hand delivered between NSA Jake Sullivan's office and his counterpart in Germany.

在阿列克謝-納瓦爾尼逝世後，國家安全局局長傑克-沙利文的辦公室和他在德國的對口部門之間展開了穿梭外交，親手遞送只有紙張的建議書。

I mean, this was sort of the secrecy of it.

我的意思是，這是一種祕密。

How different is something like this just because of the sheer size of it?

僅僅因為體積龐大，這樣的東西就有多大的不同？

It reminds me actually of the planning of the Osama bin Laden mission, that they kept it in a very small group of people.

這實際上讓我想起了本-拉登任務的策劃，他們把任務控制在一個很小的範圍內。

And yet I'm also thinking about the relief and the elation of that small group of people who've been working on this.

然而，我也在想，那一小撮人為此感到欣慰和高興。

That has to include not just the National Security Advisor's office, but Roger Karsten's, the hostage envoy and his team from the State Department.

這不僅包括國家安全顧問辦公室，還包括羅傑-卡斯滕的辦公室，以及國務院的人質特使和他的團隊。

Now, Roger started this job under Mike Pompeo's State Department, and a lot of the same people have stayed with him.

現在，羅傑在邁克-蓬佩奧的國務院開始了這份工作，很多同樣的人都留在了他身邊。

And they've worked this 24-7, not for days or months, but for years to get to this point, to get Dave Whelan out, in addition to Paul and Alsu, who was taken more recently.

為了救出戴夫-惠蘭，除了保羅和最近被抓走的阿爾蘇之外，他們還24小時不間斷地工作，不是幾天或幾個月，而是好幾年。

And it reminds me, so Roger is a former Green Beret, and their motto is De Oppresso Liber to Free the Oppressed.

這讓我想起，羅傑曾是一名綠色貝雷帽，他們的座右銘是De Oppresso Liber，解放被壓迫者。

And it's really nice to be talking about the great news of these people being released.

能談論這些人獲釋的好消息真的很好。

I would also add Robert O'Brien, the former National Security Advisor to former President

我還要加上前總統的前國家安全顧問羅伯特-奧布萊恩（Robert O'Brien）。

Trump, highly critical of the Biden administration when it comes to their approach.

特朗普在談到拜登政府的做法時，對其提出了嚴厲批評。

He says that this encourages more hostage-taking, and yet he praises Roger Karsten's when given the chance.

他說，這樣做會鼓勵更多的劫持人質行為，但只要有機會，他就會讚揚羅傑-卡斯滕的做法。

Yeah.

是啊

So it's just sort of a very...

所以，這只是一種非常......

He handed that job off to Roger.

他把這項工作交給了羅傑。

That's right.

這就對了。

Yeah.

是啊

I was just going to say that, look, we're going to, once the welcoming, the pictures on the tarmac are out, we're going to move on to crass politics, and then we're going to start asking the questions, why did Moscow not wait for a potential Trump presidency?

我只是想說，聽著，一旦歡迎儀式、停機坪上的照片曝光，我們就會轉而討論粗俗的政治，然後我們就會開始問這樣的問題：為什麼莫斯科沒有等到特朗普可能就任總統？

Moscow has given a real win to the Biden-Harris administration by having this happen now.

莫斯科的這一舉動為拜登-哈里斯政府帶來了一場真正的勝利。

And I think it could go back to the delicate negotiations among the small group of people that you were asking about.

我認為，這可能又回到了你剛才問到的那一小撮人之間的微妙談判。

Germany was willing to do this for the Biden-Harris administration now.

現在，德國願意為拜登-哈里斯政府這樣做。

They had the KGB colonel who assassinated someone available to give and trade now.

他們有暗殺某人的克格勃上校，現在可以提供和交易。

And Moscow decided, let's do it.

莫斯科決定，就這麼幹吧。

That appears to have been the linchpin of this entire agreement.

這似乎是整個協議的關鍵所在。

We do have some news to share with you.

我們確實有一些消息要與大家分享。

We've learned that Russian President Vladimir Putin has signed decrees to pardon those released in Thursday's prisoner swap.

我們獲悉，俄羅斯總統弗拉基米爾-普京已簽署法令，赦免在週四換俘行動中獲釋的人員。

General Clark, I'm curious to get your perspective of not only the timing of this, but the sheer scale of it.

克拉克將軍，我很想知道你對這件事的看法，不僅是時機，還有規模。

This is a huge deal.

這是一筆大交易。

Yeah, really complicated.

是啊，真的很複雜。

Took years to do.

花了好幾年才完成。

Lots of intricate negotiations started before President Biden came to office, obviously.

顯然，很多錯綜複雜的談判在拜登總統上任之前就已經開始了。

And now it's been culminated.

現在，這一切都達到了頂峰。

I think all the questions are still out there to be answered.

我認為所有的問題都有待解答。

But I think, you know, if I just put myself in Putin's views, he's got the colonel back.

但我認為，如果我站在普京的角度來看，他已經把上校找回來了。

He's looking at what's happening in American politics.

他關注的是美國政壇正在發生的事情。

There's a couple of lessons here.

這裡有幾個教訓。

Number one is, maybe he's not as, maybe he doesn't feel confident that Trump's actually going to get elected.

第一，也許他對特朗普的當選沒有信心。

Number two is, he might be sending a message to Donald Trump, you've got to be even nicer to me if you want my support.

第二，他可能是在向唐納德-特朗普傳遞一個資訊：如果你想得到我的支持，就必須對我更好。

So there's a lot of dimensions of this.

是以，這涉及到很多方面。

But I think the bottom line is, we should be very happy it's been done.

但我認為，最重要的是，我們應該為此感到高興。

We've got our people back.

我們的人民回來了

And I just, I don't agree with the idea that this is going to promote more hostage taking.

我只是，我不同意這樣做會助長劫持人質行為的觀點。

Look, that's always out there.

聽著，那總是存在的。

It's always a possibility.

總是有可能的。

This effort reflects America's values.

這一努力體現了美國的價值觀。

We're proud of our values.

我們為自己的價值觀感到自豪。

We stand up for them and we take care of our people.

我們支持他們，照顧我們的人民。