Name: 大多數人對營銷的誤解 | 羅裡-薩瑟蘭（英國奧美公司副董事長，作者） (What most people miss about marketing | Rory Sutherland (Vice Chairman of Ogilvy UK, author))
Uploaded: 2024-07-24T04:04:16.000Z
Duration: 1 h 24 min 36 s

Steve Jobs was not a technologist, he was a pitch man, he was a brilliant salesman, he was a fantastic marketer.

喬布斯不是一個技術專家，他是一個推銷員，他是一個出色的銷售員，他是一個出色的營銷員。

情態副詞

When products succeed, we forget the extent to which marketing was actually instrumental or decisive in their success.

當產品取得成功時，我們會忘記市場營銷在多大程度上對產品的成功起到了推動或決定性的作用。

He once said, if you can imagine a stand-up comedian doing a routine about your product, then you're onto something.

他曾經說過，如果你能想象一個脫口秀喜劇演員為你的產品表演一段脫口秀，那麼你就成功了。

You need to preserve slightly odd things.

你需要保存一些稍微奇怪的東西。

Rolls Royces were the only cars which still had a pedal on the floor.

勞斯萊斯是唯一在地板上還有踏板的汽車。

Famously, Verve Plico, it's the one with the yellow label.

著名的 Verve Plico，就是貼著黃色標籤的那款。

Do you have any advice for early stage founders to help build their brand?

您對處於早期階段的創始人有什麼幫助他們建立品牌的建議嗎？

Be consistent, be distinctive and be famous.

始終如一，與眾不同，聲名遠播。

When you are not famous, you have to find all your customers.

當你不出名時，你必須找到所有的客戶。

Suddenly, you reach this magical sort of escape velocity of fame where people start coming to you.

突然間，你達到了一種神奇的成名逃逸速度，人們開始向你走來。

今天，我的嘉賓是羅裡-薩瑟蘭。

Rory is vice chairman of Ogilvy UK, author of the book Alchemy, the Dark Art and Curious Science, creating magic in brands, business and life, and the founder of Nudge Talk, the world's biggest festival of behavioral science and creativity.

羅裡是英國奧美公司副董事長，著有《鍊金術、黑暗藝術和奇妙科學》一書，書中講述瞭如何在品牌、商業和生活中創造奇蹟，他還是世界上最大的行為科學和創意節--"Nudge Talk "的創始人。

Rory is both an example and a huge proponent of thinking from first principles.

羅裡既是從第一原則出發思考問題的典範，也是第一原則的忠實擁護者。

Through his speaking and his books, he encourages people to not think logically when solving problems, but to think psychologically, using human psychology to inform how you design and build and market your products.

通過演講和著作，他鼓勵人們在解決問題時不要用邏輯思維，而要用心理思維，用人類心理學來指導你如何設計、製造和營銷產品。

Rory is full of amazing stories and ideas and examples and inspiration, which you'll get a sense of as soon as we start talking.

羅裡充滿了令人驚歎的故事、想法、範例和靈感，我們一開始交談，你就會感受到這一點。

I don't even ask him a question and he's already off to the races.

我甚至還沒問他問題，他就已經開始比賽了。

This episode is for anyone who wants to think more creatively, help their team be more innovative and learn how to create more magic in your world.

本期節目適合那些希望更有創造力地思考問題、幫助自己的團隊更具創新性以及學習如何在自己的世界裡創造更多奇蹟的人。

Rory has been one of the most requested guests on this podcast and I can now see why.

羅裡一直是播客中最受歡迎的嘉賓之一，現在我明白為什麼了。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜歡這個播客，別忘了在您最喜歡的播客應用程序或 YouTube 上訂閱和關注它。

It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and helps the podcast tremendously.

這是避免錯過未來劇集的最佳方法，也對播客有極大的幫助。

Rory, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

羅裡，非常感謝你的到來，歡迎收聽播客。

It's a pleasure. It's an audience that I don't normally speak to.

這是我的榮幸。這是我通常不會面對的觀眾。

And so it's an audience which I think is particularly valuable, particularly important, but also actually probably could benefit quite a bit from just a little bit of extra psychology.

是以，我認為這是一個特別有價值、特別重要的閱聽人群體，但實際上，他們也可能從一點點額外的心理學知識中獲益良多。

Not least, not least, by the way, a very simple observation, which is that do not think that good products automatically succeed or the bad ones necessarily fail.

順便提一下，還有一個非常簡單的看法，那就是不要認為好的產品就一定會成功，壞的產品就一定會失敗。

The other thing I'd say is that timing is so important that don't necessarily reject things simply because they failed in the past.

我想說的另一件事是，時機非常重要，不要因為過去失敗過就拒絕接受。

One of the best products I've ever worked on in a professional capacity was Facebook Meta TV, the TV portal, sorry, Facebook, the Meta TV by Facebook.

Facebook Meta TV 是我從事過的最好的專業產品之一，它是一個電視門戶網站，對不起，是 Facebook，Facebook 的 Meta TV。

And I bought it for about $120. It plugs into your TV.

我花了大約 120 美元買的。它可以插入電視機。

It allows you to do obviously WhatsApp or Facebook or indeed Zoom on your television with a fantastic face tracking camera.

它可以讓你通過一個神奇的面部跟蹤攝像頭，在電視上進行明顯的 WhatsApp 或 Facebook 或 Zoom 操作。

I mean, it really is sort of $500 worth of equipment, which they were selling for about $120.

我的意思是，這確實是價值 500 美元的設備，而他們的售價約為 120 美元。

One of the best things I've ever owned. I owned about four of them.

這是我擁有過的最好的東西之一。我擁有過四臺。

When I heard it was being discontinued, I bought another one because I think they're so good.

當我聽說它要停產時，我又買了一個，因為我覺得它們非常好。

And yet for reasons I fully don't, you know, I don't really understand.

然而，出於我完全不明白的原因，你知道，我真的不明白。

Apart from the fact that every single review said this is brilliant, there's a product.

除了每篇評論都說它很棒之外，還有一個產品。

But the first seven paragraphs of the article weren't saying this is brilliant.

但文章的前七段並沒有說這很精彩。

They were saying who would allow Facebook to put a camera in their home.

他們說，誰會允許 Facebook 在自己家裡安裝攝像頭。

And so there were basically, you know, it was nine paragraphs of privacy paranoia because you can't turn the thing off after all.

所以，基本上，你知道，這是九段隱私妄想症，因為你終究不能把它關掉。

You don't have to leave it switched off. OK, you know, there were but there were nine paragraphs of privacy paranoia basically followed by one paragraph saying as this these kind of products go, it's brilliant.

你不必把它關掉。好吧，你知道，這裡面有九個段落都是對隱私的偏執，後面還有一個段落說，就這類產品而言，它很出色。

And yet we still don't have video calling on TV unless you're willing to plug your laptop in or do something pretty fancy and complex.

然而，我們仍然無法在電視上進行視頻通話，除非你願意把筆記本電腦插在電視上，或者做一些相當花哨和複雜的事情。

Let me actually read a quote from you around what good marketing often looks like.

其實，讓我來讀讀你的一段話，看看好的營銷通常是什麼樣的。

So you once said, if you can imagine a stand-up comedian doing a routine about your product, then you're onto something.

你曾經說過，如果你能想象一個脫口秀喜劇演員為你的產品表演一段脫口秀，那你就成功了。

The urge to appear serious is in many ways a disaster in marketing.

在許多方面，追求嚴肅是營銷的災難。

This episode is brought to you by Pendo, the only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application.

本期節目由 Pendo 為您帶來，Pendo 是唯一一款適用於任何類型應用程序的一體化產品體驗平臺。

Tired of bouncing around multiple tools to uncover what's really happening inside your product?

您是否厭倦了使用多種工具來了解產品內部的真實情況？

With all the tools you need in one simple to use platform, Pendo makes it easy to answer critical questions about how users are engaging with your product and then turn those insights into action.

Pendo 在一個簡單易用的平臺上提供了您需要的所有工具，讓您可以輕鬆回答有關用戶如何使用產品的關鍵問題，然後將這些見解轉化為行動。

Also, you can get your users to do what you actually want them to do.

此外，您還可以讓用戶做您真正想讓他們做的事情。

First, Pendo is built around product analytics, seeing what your users are actually doing in your apps so that you can optimize their experience.

首先，Pendo 以產品分析為核心，瞭解用戶在應用程序中的實際操作，從而優化用戶體驗。

Next, Pendo lets you deploy in-app guides that lead users through the actions that matter most.

接下來，Pendo 可讓您部署應用內指南，引導用戶完成最重要的操作。

Then, Pendo integrates user feedback so that you can capture and analyze what people actually want.

然後，Pendo 會整合用戶反饋，以便您捕捉和分析人們的實際需求。

And the new thing in Pendo, session replays, a very cool way to visualize user sessions.

Pendo 的新功能是會話重播，這是一種非常酷的用戶會話可視化方式。

I'm not surprised at all that over 10,000 companies use it today.

如今有超過 10,000 家公司在使用它，我一點也不感到驚訝。

Visit pendo.io slash Lenny to create your free Pendo account today and start building better experiences across every corner of your product.

訪問 pendo.io slash Lenny，立即創建您的免費 Pendo 賬戶，開始在產品的每個角落打造更好的體驗。

Yes, you want to take your product-led know-how a step further?

是的，您想讓您的產品知識更進一步嗎？

Check out Pendo's lineup of free certification courses led by top product experts and designed to help you grow and advance in your career.

查看 Pendo 的免費認證課程陣容，這些課程由頂級產品專家主講，旨在幫助您在職業生涯中不斷成長和進步。

Learn more and experience the power of the Pendo platform today at pendo.io slash Lenny.

立即登錄 pendo.io slash Lenny 瞭解更多資訊，體驗 Pendo 平臺的強大功能。

Today's episode is brought to you by Cycle, the AI-powered feedback platform for product teams.

今天的節目由人工智能驅動的產品團隊反饋平臺 Cycle 為您帶來。

Is your customer feedback a tangled mess of slack threads, survey responses, and overflowing inboxes?

您的客戶反饋是否被各種線程、調查回覆和氾濫的收件箱搞得一團糟？

Wish that you could know what your customers really need?

您希望瞭解客戶的真正需求嗎？

Cycle unifies all of your customer interactions from support chats to user research, gone calls, and app store reviews into one neat collaborative space.

Cycle 將從支持哈拉到用戶研究、通話和應用商店評論等所有客戶互動統一到一個整潔的協作空間中。

Cycle's AI then extracts actionable insights on autopilot.

然後，Cycle 的人工智能會自動提取可行的見解。

Cycle will learn what you're building so that it can label incoming feedback automatically.

Cycle 將瞭解您正在構建的內容，從而自動標註傳入的反饋資訊。

That means you'll get a full voice-of-customer report without manually triaging feedback.

這意味著您無需手動分流反饋，即可獲得完整的客戶聲音報告。

Then simply use Cycle Ask to dig deeper into any topic and generate custom AI-generated summaries across your entire feedback repository.

然後，只需使用 Cycle Ask 深入挖掘任何主題，並在整個反饋信息庫中生成由人工智能生成的自定義摘要。

What makes Cycle different is the way that it lets you close feedback loops in each release.

Cycle 的與眾不同之處在於，它能讓你在每次發佈時都關閉反饋迴路。

Feedback is not used just as a way to prioritize what to build, but also as a tool that creates trust with all stakeholders.

反饋不僅是確定建設重點的方法，也是與所有利益相關者建立信任的工具。

Sign up for a free Cycle trial today at cycle.app slash Lenny and put your feedback on autopilot.

現在就登錄 cycle.app slash Lenny 註冊免費試用 Cycle，讓你的反饋自動運行。

這就是 C-Y-C-L-E 點應用程序斜槓萊尼。

I had a conversation earlier today with someone who's in the hotel industry and is in a particular, without giving away where he works, he's looking to reinvent the hotel, arguing, I think with some reason, that it's one of those areas which is actually ripe for a good degree of disruption.

今天早些時候，我與一位從事酒店業的人進行了一次談話，他正在尋求重塑酒店業，我想這是有一定道理的，他認為酒店業是一個已經成熟的領域，可以進行一定程度的顛覆。

So it's a complicated thing. Don't be too weird, OK?

所以這是件複雜的事別太奇怪了，好嗎？

Don't, you know, don't don't be too strange, because if the consumer, there's a wonderful concept from Raymond Lerby, of course, the French designer, called maximally advanced yet acceptable.

不要，你知道，不要太奇怪，因為如果消費者，當然是法國設計師雷蒙德-勒比提出了一個美妙的概念，叫做 "最大限度的先進性和可接受性"。

In other words, you know, there is a pace of change which consumers will accept.

換句話說，消費者會接受一定的變化速度。

And generally, they're more comfortable with evolution than they are with complete reinvention.

一般來說，他們更樂於接受進化，而不是徹底的革新。

There are exceptions to that. Well, actually, even the iPhone, let's face it, OK, was preceded by the iPod.

但也有例外。事實上，即使是 iPhone，面對現實吧，它的前身也是 iPod。

It wasn't a complete WTF moment, OK? And consumers effectively like to migrate their behaviour rather than reinventing their behaviour.

這並不是一個完全的 "WTF時刻"，好嗎？消費者實際上喜歡遷移他們的行為，而不是重新發明他們的行為。

But nonetheless, one of the things I always point out is that idiosyncrasies kind of count double.

但儘管如此，我一直指出的一點是，特立獨行是雙倍的。

The wonderful thing, actually, years ago, back in the 1990s, Ogilvy won the Jaguar account.

事實上，多年前，也就是 20 世紀 90 年代，奧美贏得了捷豹的客戶，這是一件非常美妙的事情。

And one of the things the creative director in New York said is that, you know, one of the things you need to preserve is slightly odd things.

紐約的創意總監說過，你知道，你需要保留的東西之一就是那些略顯古怪的東西。

So in a Jaguar of the 1990s, you turned on the light above your head, the reading light or the central light with a switch that was actually on the central console.

是以，在 20 世紀 90 年代的捷豹汽車上，你可以用中央控制檯上的開關打開頭頂的燈、閱讀燈或中央照明燈。

Every other car, you reached up and you flick the switch.

每隔一輛車，你都要伸手按下開關。

In the Jaguar, you press the button at the bottom and the light came on the top.

在捷豹汽車中，按下底部的按鈕，頂部就會亮燈。

And the creative director said, you know, keep those things.

創意總監說，你知道，這些東西就留著吧。

You know, actually, you know, distinctiveness really matters.

實際上，與眾不同真的很重要。

And they were actually really interested because they said, oh, that's interesting you say that because we're actually planning to get rid of it because we thought it was inconsistent.

事實上，他們真的很感興趣，因為他們說："哦，你這麼說很有意思，因為我們實際上正打算把它去掉，因為我們認為它不一致。

For years, I don't know if this is still true because I don't drive many Rolls Royces.

多年來，我不知道這是否仍然正確，因為我開的勞斯萊斯並不多。

But for years, Rolls Royce was the last car. Now, obviously, now cars dip their headlamps automatically or you have an automatic setting.

但多年來，勞斯萊斯是最後一輛車。很明顯，現在的汽車都會自動調整大燈的亮度，或者進行自動設置。

But for years, Rolls Royces were the only cars which still had a pedal on the floor.

但多年來，勞斯萊斯是唯一仍在地板上設有踏板的汽車。

Perfect for an automatic, not so good for a manual.

非常適合自動擋車型，但對於手動擋車型就不那麼合適了。

But they had a pedal on the floor where you dipped and undipped your headlamps rather than having a stalk.

但它們在地板上有一個踏板，你可以在踏板上打開或關閉大燈，而不是有一個燈杆。

And those things, which I always cite things like the the Doubletree cookie when you check in, for example.

而這些東西，我總是舉例說明，比如在辦理入住手續時的雙樹曲奇餅乾（Doubletree cookie）。

I mean, a brilliant example of this, which when you think about it was extraordinary in terms of the attention it garnered.

我的意思是，這就是一個很好的例子，仔細想想，它引起的關注非同一般。

You probably remember MCI, the American. No, you're too young.

你可能還記得美國的 MCI 公司。不，你太年輕了。

They have the concept of friends and family where you nominated a certain number of calls, a certain number of numbers that you called particularly frequently.

他們有親朋好友的概念，你提名了一定數量的電話，一定數量的你經常撥打的號碼。

And you got sort of 20 percent off calls to those numbers.

這些號碼的來電可享受 20% 的折扣。

I started off with 10 and I think they eventually ramped it up to kind of 25.

一開始是 10 個，我想他們最後增加到了 25 個。

But actually, most people, 90 percent. It's a poetic principle.

但實際上，大多數人都是 90%。這是一個詩意的原則。

Most people make 80 percent of their calls to probably five or six numbers.

大多數人 80% 的電話都是打給五六個號碼。

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大多數人對營銷的誤解 | 羅裡-薩瑟蘭（英國奧美公司副董事長，作者） (What most people miss about marketing | Rory Sutherland (Vice Chairman of Ogilvy UK, author))

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