Leveraging language can help us achieve our communication goals.

利用語言可以幫助我們實現交流目標。

Join me as we take a deep dive into wording.

和我一起深入瞭解措辭。

My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.

我叫馬特-亞伯拉罕，在斯坦福大學商學院教授戰略傳播學。

Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

歡迎收聽 "快思快說 "播客。

Today, I am really excited to speak with Jonah Berger.

今天，我非常高興與喬納-伯傑（Jonah Berger）進行對話。

Jonah is no stranger to Stanford and the GSB.

喬納對斯坦福大學和 GSB 並不陌生。

He was an undergrad here and then went on to the GSB to earn his PhD.

他曾是這裡的大學生，後來進入 GSB 獲得博士學位。

He studied with one of our previous guests, Chip Heath.

他曾師從我們之前的一位嘉賓奇普-希斯（Chip Heath）。

Jonah is now a professor at Wharton, a consultant, speaker, and author of several incredibly educational and fun books, including Contagious, Why Things Catch On, The Catalyst, How to Change Anyone's Mind, and Invisible Influence, The Hidden Forces That Shape Behavior.

喬納現在是沃頓商學院的教授、顧問、演講家，還撰寫了多本極富教育意義和趣味性的書籍，包括《傳染性》（Contagious, Why Things Catch On）、《催化劑》（The Catalyst, How to Change Anyone's Mind）和《無形的影響力》（Invisible Influence, The Hidden Forces That Shape Beavior）。

I look forward to discussing Jonah's research, his writings, and his new book, Magic Words.

我期待著與大家討論喬納的研究、他的著作以及他的新書《魔力之語》。

Welcome, Jonah, and thanks for being here.

歡迎您，喬納，感謝您的光臨。

Thanks so much for having me.

非常感謝你邀請我。

Yeah, I'm super excited for our conversation.

是的，我對我們的談話感到非常興奮。

Let's jump right in.

讓我們直奔主題。

Persuasion and influence are topics that our listeners are thirsty to learn more about.

說服力和影響力是聽眾渴望瞭解的話題。

In your book, Contagious, Why Things Catch On, you talk about what makes ideas, products, and services become popular.

在您的著作《傳染，事物為何流行》中，您談到了是什麼讓創意、產品和服務變得流行起來。

Can you distill down a few of the key tools and tactics we can deploy in our communication to help our ideas catch on?

您能否提煉出我們在交流中可以使用的幾種關鍵工具和策略，以幫助我們的想法深入人心？

Yeah, so I think one of the main takeaways from that book is the power of word of mouth and how to use it.

是的，所以我認為這本書的主要啟示之一就是口碑的力量以及如何利用它。

So whether we're making a presentation, whether we're selling a product, we often want people to support what we're doing.

是以，無論我們是在做演講，還是在銷售產品，我們通常都希望人們支持我們的工作。

And sure, what we do matters.

當然，我們所做的一切都很重要。

What we say in that presentation or as marketers, what we say in an advertisement might have an impact, but we can have a much larger impact if we can get other people talking about our stuff, if we can turn customers into advocates, if we can turn listeners and colleagues into supporters, if we can get them to share a message, not only will we have more reach, we reach a broader set of people with that message, but we'll have much more impact.

我們在演講中所說的話，或者作為營銷人員，我們在廣告中所說的話可能會產生影響，但如果我們能讓其他人談論我們的東西，如果我們能把客戶變成擁護者，如果我們能把聽眾和同事變成支持者，如果我們能讓他們分享資訊，我們就能產生更大的影響。

And so Contagious is all about, yes, word of mouth has power, but how do we get it?

是以，"傳染性 "的意義就在於，是的，口碑是有力量的，但我們如何獲得它呢？

And so I spent a long time studying the science of word of mouth, why people talk and why people share about some things rather than others.

是以，我花了很長時間研究口碑科學，研究人們為什麼會談論，為什麼人們會分享某些事情而不是其他事情。

We've looked at thousands of pieces of online content, tens of thousands of brands, millions of purchases around the United World.

我們研究了全球數以千計的在線內容、數以萬計的品牌和數以百萬計的購買行為。

Again and again, we saw the same six factors come up.

我們一次又一次地看到了同樣的六個因素。

So in Contagious, I talk about those factors that drive word of mouth and drive consumer behavior and more importantly, how we can leverage them to craft contagious content, how we can leverage them to build messages and ideas and products and presentations that will spread and catch on.

是以，在《感染力》一書中，我談到了推動口碑傳播和消費者行為的因素，更重要的是，我們如何利用這些因素來製作具有感染力的內容，如何利用這些因素來製作能夠傳播和流行的資訊、想法、產品和演示文稿。

Certainly word of mouth is powerful.

當然，口碑的力量是強大的。

I find myself looking for things to watch and listen to based on what my friends tell me and products to buy.

我發現自己會根據朋友告訴我的資訊和要購買的產品來尋找要看和要聽的東西。

What's one or two techniques that can help word of mouth develop?

有什麼一兩個技巧可以幫助發展口碑？

Sure.

當然。

The first big principle I talk about is something called social currency.

我要說的第一大原則就是所謂的社交貨幣。

And the very simple idea there is the better something makes us look, the more likely we are to talk about it and share it.

其中一個非常簡單的想法是，讓我們看起來越好的東西，我們就越有可能談論它、分享它。

So I talk about a story of a bar, for example, hidden in a hot dog restaurant.

是以，我講了一個酒吧的故事，比如說，它就藏在一家熱狗店裡。

You walk down a flight of stairs, there's this hot dog restaurant, but in the corner of the room is a phone booth and if you go into the phone booth and you dial a number, someone will pick up the other line, they'll ask you to have a reservation.

你走下樓梯，就會看到一家熱狗店，但在房間的角落裡有一個電話亭，如果你走進電話亭，撥一個號碼，就會有人接聽，他們會問你是否有預訂。

If you're lucky and you have one, the back of that phone booth opens and you get let into a secret bar called Please Don't Tell.

如果你運氣好，有一個電話亭，電話亭的後面就會打開，讓你進入一個叫 "請不要說出去 "的祕密酒吧。

And what I love about that story is, first of all, you know, everyone, everyone can understand that story, that sort of hidden information, really cool stuff.

我喜歡這個故事的原因在於，首先，你知道，每個人都能理解這個故事，理解其中隱藏的資訊，這真的很酷。

This place is hugely popular though, never advertised, no sign on the street, no sign inside the restaurant.

不過，這家餐廳非常受歡迎，但從未做過廣告，街上沒有招牌，餐廳內也沒有招牌。

How did they get so much attention?

他們是如何受到如此關注的？

And they did something really, really simple.

他們做了一件非常非常簡單的事。

They made themselves a secret.

他們把自己當成了一個祕密。

And if you think about it, there's a little secret about secrets.

如果你仔細想想，祕密中還有一個小祕密。

If you think about the last time someone told you something and they told you not to tell anybody else, what's the first thing you probably did with that information?

如果你回想一下，上一次有人告訴你一些事情，並讓你不要告訴其他人，你可能對這些資訊做的第一件事是什麼？

Yeah, told somebody.

是啊，告訴別人了

You told somebody.

你告訴別人了

Because having access to information makes you look good, makes you look smart, makes you look in the know.

因為掌握資訊會讓你看起來很好，讓你看起來很聰明，讓你看起來無所不知。

And so the idea of social currency, it's not just about secrets, but it's about we're more likely to share things that make us look good than make us look bad.

是以，社交貨幣的概念，不僅僅是關於祕密，而是關於我們更願意分享那些讓我們看起來好的東西，而不是讓我們看起來壞的東西。

If I'm the first person to adopt a new product or service, if I have information that not everyone else has access to, if something really good or cool or exciting happens to me that makes me look smart, I'm more likely to share it.

如果我是第一個採用新產品或新服務的人，如果我掌握了別人無法獲得的資訊，如果我遇到了非常好、很酷或令人興奮的事情，讓我看起來很聰明，我就更有可能分享這些資訊。

We talk about frequent flyer status because it makes us look good to our peers.

我們談論飛行常客身份，是因為這會讓我們在同行面前有面子。

We talk about a new album coming out because it shows we're ahead of the curve.

我們談論即將發行的新專輯，因為這表明我們走在了時代的前列。

And so the key insight there is as communications professionals, as individuals who want to get the word out, we often spend a lot of time thinking about us, our message, our idea.

是以，其中的關鍵啟示是，作為傳播專業人士，作為想要傳播資訊的個人，我們經常會花很多時間來思考我們自己、我們的資訊、我們的想法。

We spend a lot less time thinking about how the audience will look if they tell people about it.

我們花的時間更少，考慮的是如果觀眾告訴別人，他們會怎麼看。

When I'm selling a product, maybe I make a perfect advertisement and I want to make sure that everyone will love the ad, but I don't think as much about, okay, well, if someone sees that, how are they going to look if they tell their friends about it?

當我在銷售產品時，也許我做了一個完美的廣告，我想確保每個人都會喜歡這個廣告，但我沒有考慮那麼多，好吧，如果有人看到了，如果他們告訴他們的朋友，他們會怎麼看？

Because the better that's going to make them look, the more likely they'll be to talk about it and share it.

因為讓他們看起來越好，他們就越有可能談論和分享。

Wow.

哇

I love that insight.

我喜歡這種見解。

I want to know where that bar is.

我想知道那個酒吧在哪裡

And I have to tell you that we often speak on this podcast about knowing your audience and taking time to understand what they need.

我必須告訴你，我們在播客中經常談到要了解你的聽眾，花時間瞭解他們的需求。

And you're adding an additional layer to that, which is, it's not only what they need, but how does your message impact them and how they feel, how they look, and that can lead you to greater success.

在此基礎上，你又增加了一層，那就是，這不僅僅是他們需要什麼，而是你的資訊如何影響他們、他們的感覺如何、他們的外表如何，這可以讓你獲得更大的成功。

And I have to tell you, you use that technique on me as in preparation for this interview, you sent me a copy, an advanced copy of your new book, Magic Words.

我必須告訴你，你對我使用了這一技巧，因為在準備這次採訪時，你給我寄了一本你的新書《魔力之語》的預覽版。

I read it.

我讀了。

I told lots of people I know that it's a great book and that they should pre-order it as a result of having that information.

我告訴我認識的很多人，這是一本好書，他們應該預購，因為我知道這些資訊。

And I have to share with you, some of my colleagues think I'm smarter because of what I shared from your book.

我必須和你分享，我的一些同事認為我更聰明瞭，因為我分享了你書中的內容。

So you helped make me look good and you helped me become an evangelist.

所以，你幫我樹立了良好的形象，也幫我成為了一名傳道者。

So thank you for that.

謝謝你的幫助。

And I'd like to turn our attention to your new book.

我想把我們的注意力轉向您的新書。

In that book, Magic Words, you suggest impact on behavior.

在那本書《魔力之語》中，你提出了對行為的影響。

In fact, I have a quote here.

事實上，我在這裡引用了一句話。

You write, words suggest who's in charge, who's to blame and what it means to engage in a particular action.

在你的筆下，文字暗示著誰是負責人，誰該受到指責，以及從事某種行為意味著什麼。

Consequently, slight changes in the words we use can have a big impact.

是以，我們在用詞上的細微變化都會產生巨大的影響。

So my question to you, Jonah, is what kind of impact are you talking about?

喬納，我想問你的是，你所說的影響是什麼樣的？

And can you provide one or two examples that demonstrate that quote?

你能提供一兩個例子來證明這句話嗎？

Sure.

當然。

Yeah.

是啊

So what I find fascinating is we use words all the time, how we even to connect with our loved ones, we use words.

是以，我發現我們無時無刻不在使用語言，甚至在與我們所愛的人溝通時，我們也在使用語言。

Yet, while we think a lot about the general ideas we want to communicate.

然而，儘管我們對想要傳達的總體思想想了很多。

So maybe we get up in front of an audience and our goal is to sell them on a certain project.

所以，也許我們站在觀眾面前，我們的目標是向他們推銷某個項目。

We talk a lot about how great the project is.

我們經常談論這個項目有多棒。

We think a lot about the topic or the what we want to communicate.

我們對主題或想要傳達的內容進行了大量思考。

We don't think a lot about the how we communicate it, the specific words we use when sharing ideas.

我們很少考慮如何交流，以及交流想法時使用的具體詞語。

And unfortunately, that's a mistake because it turns out that subtle shifts in language can have a huge impact on everything from convincing clients and holding attention to connecting with loved ones in our lives.

不幸的是，這是一個錯誤，因為事實證明，從說服客戶、吸引注意力到與生活中的親人建立聯繫，語言的微妙變化都會產生巨大的影響。

And so by understanding the science of language, the power of language, how it works, and these types of magic words, we can increase our own impact, whether that means being more creative, being more persuasive, holding attention and captivating audiences.

是以，通過了解語言科學、語言的力量、語言的工作原理以及這些神奇的詞彙，我們可以提高自己的影響力，無論是更有創造力、更有說服力、吸引注意力還是吸引閱聽人。

In almost every area of life, we can use language to be more effective.

幾乎在生活的每一個領域，我們都可以利用語言來提高效率。

You've got me sold on that.

我被你說服了。

I have often told people that words matter.

我經常告訴人們，語言很重要。

We really have to think about the language we use and we need to make sure that that language is appropriate for our audience and serves a purpose for them and for us.

我們真的必須考慮我們使用的語言，我們需要確保這些語言適合我們的閱聽人，併為他們和我們自己服務。

Do you have some examples you can share about language use and how it can help us achieve our communication goals?

您是否有一些關於語言使用以及語言如何幫助我們實現交流目標的例子可以分享？

Sure.

當然。

The book has six main types of words.

這本書有六大類單詞。

I like frameworks, so I put them in a framework called the speak framework, that's S-P-E-A-C-C, because I couldn't come up with something that had a K in it, but that stands for words that evoke similarity.

我喜歡框架，所以我把它們放進了一個叫 "說話框架 "的框架裡。"說話框架 "是 S-P-E-A-C-C，因為我想不出帶 K 的詞，但它代表了能喚起相似性的詞。

Posing questions is the P, E is for emotion, A is for agency and identity, one of the C's is concreteness, and one of the C's is confidence.

提出問題是 "P"，"E "代表情感，"A "代表機構和身份，"C "之一是 "具體性"，"C "之一是 "自信"。

And so I'll pick just one example from posing questions.

是以，我只想從提出問題中選一個例子。

I find questions really fascinating because they do a lot of work.

我發現問題真的很吸引人，因為他們做了很多工作。

We often think about questions as collecting information, right?

我們通常認為提問就是收集資訊，對嗎？

Getting us an answer, but they also have a big impact on how people perceive us and how we see the world and perceive others.

它們不僅能讓我們得到答案，還能對人們如何看待我們、我們如何看待世界和他人產生重大影響。

There's some nice research, for example, on asking for advice.

例如，有一些關於徵求建議的研究很不錯。

And often we think we shouldn't ask for advice.

我們常常認為自己不應該徵求意見。

Why?

為什麼？

Well, first of all, we don't want to bother someone, right?

首先，我們不想打擾別人，對吧？

So if we're at the office and we've got a problem that we're stuck on, we could ask a colleague, we could ask our boss, but we don't want to bother them.

是以，如果我們在辦公室遇到了棘手的問題，我們可以問同事，也可以問老闆，但我們不想麻煩他們。

They may not know the answer and even worse, we're where they'll think less of us.

他們可能不知道答案，更糟糕的是，我們會讓他們看輕我們。

They'll go, well, why are you asking me?

他們會說，那你為什麼問我？

Why couldn't you figure it out yourself?

你為什麼不能自己想辦法？

And so we often don't ask for advice.

是以，我們常常不徵求意見。

And not only is that bad because we don't get the benefit of others' thoughts and advice and collect that information, but it's also bad because we're missing out on a big opportunity.

這樣做不僅不好，因為我們無法從他人的想法和建議中獲益，也無法收集這些資訊，而且這樣做還會錯失良機。

Because when research examined asking for advice and in a variety of experiments and situations that looked at how people were perceived when they asked for advice versus did, not only didn't they find that asking for advice hurt, made us look less smart, less knowledgeable, have less expertise in a space, it actually had the exact opposite effect.

因為在研究徵求建議時，在各種實驗和情況下，人們在徵求建議和聽取建議時是如何看待的，他們不僅沒有發現徵求建議會傷害我們，讓我們看起來不那麼聰明，不那麼博學，在某一領域沒有那麼多專業知識，實際上還產生了完全相反的效果。

Asking for advice made people look better, not worse.

徵求意見讓人看起來更好，而不是更壞。

It made others think they were more competent, smarter and more knowledgeable.

這讓別人覺得他們更能幹、更聰明、更博學。

And the reason why, very simply, is it takes advantage of people's egocentrism.

原因很簡單，因為它利用了人們的自我中心主義。

Everyone thinks they have great advice.

每個人都認為自己有很好的建議。

Most of us like ourselves, we like our own advice, we think we're pretty good, right?

我們大多數人都喜歡自己，喜歡自己的建議，認為自己很優秀，對嗎？

And so when someone asks us for advice, we go, oh, that person must be really smart because they're smart enough for ask me for my opinion.

是以，當有人向我們徵求意見時，我們就會想，哦，這個人一定很聰明，因為他們聰明到會徵求我的意見。

And so asking for advice makes us look better, not worse.

是以，徵求意見會讓我們看起來更好，而不是更糟。

And you could say, well, hold on, is that really a type of words that's asking questions in general?

你可能會說，等等，這真的是一般意義上的提問嗎？

But there's also research on the types of questions to ask.

但也有關於提問類型的研究。

We often, in conversation, do sort of introductory questions.

在交談中，我們經常會問一些介紹性的問題。

At the beginning of this you probably said something like how are you?

一開始你可能會說，你好嗎？

And I probably said something that back like, fine, how are you?

我可能還說了些 "很好，你好嗎？"之類的話。

Right.

對

And those are good questions.

這些都是好問題。

They're not bad, they're polite.

他們不壞，他們很有禮貌。

But when researchers looked at a variety of different types of conversations, hundreds of different types of conversations, they found that a particular type of question was particularly impactful, quite useful in shaping how others perceive us.

但是，當研究人員研究了各種不同類型的對話，數百種不同類型的對話後，他們發現有一種特定類型的問題特別有影響力，在塑造他人對我們的看法方面非常有用。

It wasn't these introductory questions and it wasn't kind of mimicry questions when someone asked, what are you having for lunch, blah, blah, blah, what are you having?

當有人問 "午餐吃什麼"、"吃什麼"、"吃什麼 "時，不是這些介紹性的問題，也不是那種模仿性的問題。

Instead, it's a type of questions called follow-up questions.

相反，這是一種叫做追問的問題。

And what follow-up questions are is when someone says something, I enjoyed this presentation, rather than saying, oh, I did as well, saying something like, neat, oh, what part did you like?

當有人說 "我很喜歡這次演講 "時，與其說 "哦，我也很喜歡"，不如說 "很整潔，哦，你喜歡哪個部分？"這樣的後續問題。

When someone says I had a really tough day, not just saying, oh, I'm so sorry to hear that, but oh, what made it so difficult?

當有人說我今天過得很糟糕時，不要只是說 "哦，我很遺憾聽到這個消息"，而是說 "哦，是什麼讓我過得如此艱難？

Tell me more.

告訴我更多。

They're questions that follow up on whatever someone said and show that you're interested in collecting more information.

這些問題是對某人所說內容的追問，表明你有興趣收集更多資訊。

Because follow-up questions do a few things.

因為後續問題有幾個作用。

First, they show you're paying attention.

首先，它們表明你在關注。

Being polite is easy, but they don't really signal that you're paying attention.

有禮貌很容易，但它們並不能真正表明你在專心致志。

But if you took the time to listen to what someone said and follow up with what they said, it showed you pay attention and you care.

但是，如果你花時間傾聽別人說的話，並跟進他們說的話，這就表明你關注和關心他們。

You're interested in learning more.

您有興趣瞭解更多。

And not only does that allow us to collect information, but it leads people to like us more.

這不僅能讓我們收集資訊，還能讓人們更喜歡我們。

We show that we care about them and what's going on with their lives.

我們要表明，我們關心他們，關心他們的生活。

And so they like us more as a result.

是以，他們更喜歡我們了。

And so even something as simple as the questions we ask and how we ask them can have an important impact on how we're perceived.

是以，即使是我們問的問題和提問的方式這樣簡單的事情，也會對人們對我們的看法產生重要影響。

I really like this notion of the benefits of doing so because you as a teacher, as a teacher myself, we often tell our students, seek feedback, seek advice.

我非常喜歡這樣做的好處，因為作為教師，作為教師本人，我們經常告訴學生，要尋求反饋，尋求建議。

And many of them are shy to do that because as you said, they're afraid it demonstrates weakness or lowering their status.

他們中的許多人都羞於這樣做，因為正如你所說，他們害怕這樣做會表現出軟弱或降低自己的地位。

And I love the fact that research suggests it actually bolsters it.

而且我喜歡研究表明它實際上會增強它的效果。

And clearly the types of questions you're giving examples to not only can help you getting input that you're seeking, but it demonstrates that you're listening and interested in what the other person says, which is a great way, as you said, of connecting.

很顯然，你舉例說明的問題類型不僅能幫助你獲得所需的資訊，還能證明你在傾聽並對對方的話感興趣，正如你所說，這是一種很好的溝通方式。

I'd love to ask you about one other category of your speak framework.

我想請教一下您的發言框架中的另一個類別。

And we talk a lot on this podcast about confidence, confidence and communication.

我們在播客中經常談到自信、自信和溝通。

Any guidance around language use and confidence you can share?

在語言使用和自信方面，您有什麼可以分享的指導嗎？

Yeah, I think all of us in our own lives can think about someone that just exudes confidence, right?

是啊，我想我們每個人在自己的生活中都能想到一個散發著自信的人，對嗎？

They have so much charisma.

他們魅力無窮。

Whenever they speak, other people listen.

每當他們說話時，其他人就會傾聽。

We can all think about someone in our own lives like that.

我們都能想到自己生活中的某個人是這樣的。

And if you look, whether you look at gurus, you look at startup founders, you look at leaders that are often thought about charismatic, they often have something quite in common.

如果你看一看，無論是大師，還是初創企業的創始人，抑或是那些通常被認為具有人格魅力的領導者，他們往往都有一些共同點。

They often do the same thing, which is they speak with a great deal of certainty.

他們經常做同樣的事情，就是說得非常肯定。

And what do I mean by that?

我這麼說是什麼意思？

Well, if you look at what some of these leaders do, you know, things aren't just going to happen.

好吧，如果你看看這些領導人的所作所為，你就會知道，事情並不是說發生就發生的。

They're definitely going to happen.

它們肯定會發生。

A course of action isn't just a potentially good course of action.