So how do you do that?

那麼，如何做到這一點呢？

This is the work we need to do, like individually and also collectively to change the narrative, to change the story.

這是我們需要做的工作，無論是個人還是集體，都要改變敘述，改變故事。

Again, you see it all over the world that people everywhere tell their story as a story of victimhood.

同樣，你會發現世界各地的人們都在講述自己的受害故事。

You have also some of the most powerful countries in the world, Russia, telling itself its story as a story of victimhood.

世界上最強大的國家之一俄羅斯也在講述自己的受害故事。

Everybody's against us, everybody hates us, everybody tries to destroy us.

每個人都反對我們，每個人都恨我們，每個人都試圖摧毀我們。

And the problem with stories of victimhood, even they always have an element of truth in them, of course, but if you think about yourself primarily as a victim, it relieves you of our responsibility.

而受害者故事的問題在於，即使它們總是有一定的真實性，但如果你把自己主要當成受害者，就會減輕我們的責任。

I'm not responsible for all the problems in the world, I'm a victim.

世界上所有的問題都不是我造成的，我是受害者。

I need more power.

我需要更多動力。

One day when I'm empowered, okay, then I take responsibility, but not now.

等有一天我有能力了，好吧，我會承擔責任，但不是現在。

Now I just need to focus on getting more powerful myself.

現在，我只需要集中精力，讓自己變得更強大。

You're not responsible for any of the people that are killed in Gaza, not one.

你對加沙被殺的任何人都沒有責任，一個都沒有。

That's the story of the victim.

這就是受害者的故事。

Part of also what I try to do in the children's book is to say, no, humans are the most powerful entities on the planet.

我在這本兒童讀物中嘗試做的事情之一就是說，不，人類是地球上最強大的實體。

And also when you look at human collectives, states, tribes, religions, all of them have some measure of power.

再看看人類的集體，國家、部落、宗教，它們都有一定程度的權力。

And unless we kind of change our narratives from one of victimhood to one of at least partial empowerment, we are not going to take responsibility for anything.

除非我們改變自己的敘事方式，從受害者的敘事方式轉變為至少部分賦權的敘事方式，否則我們不會對任何事情負責。

So then how do you, another question from the audience, it's a great one, how do you define the difference between patriotism and nationalism?

那麼，聽眾們又提出了一個很好的問題，你如何界定愛國主義和民族主義之間的區別？

Specifically, where's the limit before we have ideologies that endanger us?

具體來說，在我們擁有危害我們的意識形態之前，極限在哪裡？

It's the limit between uniqueness and supremeness and the limit of the border between love and hate.

這是獨一無二與至高無上之間的界限，也是愛與恨之間的界限。

The good type of patriotism says that this is a unique group of people which I love, I care about, and therefore I'm willing to go the extra mile for them.

好的愛國主義說，這是一個獨特的群體，我愛他們，我關心他們，是以我願意為他們付出更多。

I'll do for them things that I wouldn't do for others, which is completely reasonable.

我會為他們做一些我不會為別人做的事，這完全合情合理。

This is how we behave with our family, with our friends.

這就是我們與家人、朋友相處的方式。

This is also how we should behave with our nation.

這也是我們對待國家的態度。

It becomes dangerous when we start saying this group of people, they are not just unique, they are superior, they are supreme.

當我們開始說這群人，他們不僅是獨一無二的，他們是優越的，他們是至高無上的，這就變得危險了。

They are better than anybody else.

他們比任何人都強。

They deserve far more than anybody else.

他們應得的遠遠多於其他人。

And when the emphasis shifts from love and caring to hate, people who define themselves, I'm a great patriot because I hate foreigners.

當重點從愛和關懷轉移到仇恨時，人們就會給自己下定義："我是一個偉大的愛國者，因為我恨外國人。

I am a great patriot not because I pay my taxes.

我是偉大的愛國者，不是因為我納稅。

I don't pay any taxes.

我不交稅。

It's because I hate minorities, so I'm a great patriot.

因為我討厭少數民族，所以我是一個偉大的愛國者。

And this is the danger zone.

這就是危險區。

Another question, in the months leading up to October 7th, you were highly critical of the Israeli government.

還有一個問題，在 10 月 7 日之前的幾個月裡，你對以色列政府持嚴厲批評態度。

We've talked about that.

我們已經談過這個問題了。

Since October 7th, you have defended Israel's right to exist and been critical of the progressive left that blames Israel and the occupation.

自 10 月 7 日以來，您一直捍衛以色列的生存權，並責備指責以色列和佔領的進步左派。

How do you reconcile these complicated views?

如何協調這些複雜的觀點？

Two ideas held at the same time, no problem.

兩個想法同時進行，沒問題。

I mean, I'm in...

我的意思是，我在...

I'm in favor of Palestinians realizing their rights to live a dignified life in their homeland, and at the same time, I'm in favor of Israelis having their rights to live dignified lives in their homeland.

我支持巴勒斯坦人實現在自己的家園過上有尊嚴生活的權利，同時，我也支持以色列人擁有在自己的家園過上有尊嚴生活的權利。

What exactly the solution would look like two states, this kind of solution, it's difficult to say at the present moment, but at the end of the road, we need a situation when the right to exist, and not just to exist, but again, to live dignified lives of both nations is recognized, and there shouldn't be a logical contradiction.

兩個國家的解決方案到底是什麼樣的，這種解決方案目前還很難說，但歸根結底，我們需要的是一個兩國的生存權，不僅僅是生存權，而且是過上有尊嚴生活的權利都得到承認的局面，不應該存在邏輯上的矛盾。

Just because you're in favor of the rights of Palestinians doesn't mean you have to be also in favor of destroying Israel completely, and just because you're in favor of defending Israel doesn't mean that you should ignore the terrible suffering of the Palestinians and their rights.

你支持巴勒斯坦人的權利，並不意味著你也必須支持徹底摧毀以色列；你支持保衛以色列，並不意味著你就應該無視巴勒斯坦人遭受的可怕苦難和他們的權利。

So two big things, speaking of...

說起這兩件大事...

Speaking of holding two views in your mind at the same time, since October 7th, two different things have happened, right?

說到同時持有兩種觀點，自 10 月 7 日以來，發生了兩件不同的事情，對嗎？

On the one hand, we have a lot more people that now see the urgency of creating a pathway for the Palestinians to be able to govern themselves and have a level of self-defense.

一方面，現在有更多的人認為，迫切需要為巴勒斯坦人開闢一條道路，使他們能夠自己管理自己，並進行一定程度的自衛。

On the other hand, you have radicalized far larger numbers of populations, both inside Israel and in Gaza, in the West Bank, among Palestinian refugees in Jordan and elsewhere.

另一方面，在以色列境內、加沙、約旦河西岸、約旦和其他地方的巴勒斯坦難民中，你們激進化了更多的人。

Which of those two things do you feel is more likely to play out to determine outcomes, and why?

你覺得這兩件事中哪一件更有可能決定結果，為什麼？

It depends on the decisions being taken right now, or in the coming weeks and months.

這取決於現在或未來幾周和幾個月內做出的決定。

There is a potential that out of this terrible catastrophe, something good will actually emerge.

在這場可怕的災難中，有可能真的會出現一些好東西。

If there is a kind of comprehensive deal for a peace treaty between Israel and Saudi Arabia, which also includes the restart of the Israeli-Palestinian peace conference, a peace process, rebuilding of Gaza, and providing the Palestinian people with a better future.

如果以色列和沙特阿拉伯之間能夠達成一項全面的和平條約，其中還包括重啟以巴和平會議、和平進程、重建加沙以及為巴勒斯坦人民提供一個更美好的未來。

And if we go in that direction, I think that all the terrible hatred and fear that has been created in recent months, we can get over it.

如果我們朝著這個方向前進，我認為最近幾個月所產生的所有可怕的仇恨和恐懼都會過去。

When you're in the midst of this moment of terrible pain, you think it will last forever.

當你沉浸在這可怕的痛苦中時，你會認為它會永遠持續下去。

But time is very powerful.

但時間的力量非常強大。

Talk about Rwanda.

談談盧旺達

Give the Rwanda example.

以盧旺達為例。

Yeah, exactly 30 years ago, we had this terrible genocide in Rwanda.

是的，整整 30 年前，盧旺達發生了可怕的種族滅絕。

You had October the 7th on 10 times bigger, not 1,000 people massacred in a day, 10,000 people massacred in a day, in a terrible way, not with bombs from far away, but with knives and clubs.

10 月 7 日的屠殺規模要大 10 倍，不是一天之內屠殺 1000 人，而是一天之內屠殺 10000 人，而且屠殺的方式非常可怕，不是用炸彈從遠處炸來，而是用刀和棍棒。

And then it happened again the next day, and again the next day, and again the next day, for 100 days, a million people were murdered in 100 days in the most atrocious ways you could imagine. 30 years later, they live together, the Hutu and Tutsis.

第二天又發生了，第二天又發生了，第二天又發生了，整整 100 天，100 天內有 100 萬人被以你能想象到的最殘暴的方式殺害。30 年後，胡圖人和圖西人生活在一起。

Rwanda is one of the most successful, by many measures, countries in Africa.

從許多方面來看，盧旺達都是非洲最成功的國家之一。

At the time, in the early 90s, it would have been utterly unthinkable.

在 90 年代初，這在當時是完全不可想象的。

And it's only 30 years.

而且只有 30 年。

And similarly, if you think about the history of Jews and Germans, that are now very good friends, and it was just 70, 80 years ago.

同樣，如果你回想一下猶太人和德國人的歷史，他們現在是非常好的朋友，而這只是七八十年前的事情。

So in the midst of a very painful moment, the pain and the hatred, they just flood your mind completely.

是以，在非常痛苦的時刻，痛苦和仇恨就會完全湧入你的腦海。

It's like a black screen in front of your eyes.

就像眼前出現了一個黑屏。

You can see nothing.

你什麼也看不見。

You think it will last forever.

你認為它會永遠持續下去。

But if people make the right decisions, even the worst storms pass.

但是，只要人們做出正確的決定，再大的風暴也會過去。