Name: 前臺灣總統蔡英文談她的傳承、中國和未來 (Taiwan President Tsai Ing-wen on her legacy, China and the future | BBC News)
Uploaded: 2024-05-21T03:20:23.000Z
Duration: 13 min 43 s

This is Taipei, capital of Taiwan, an island democracy of 23 million people.

這裡是臺北，臺灣的首府，一個擁有 2300 萬人口的民主島國。

程度副詞

But Taiwan's international status is highly contested.

但臺灣的國際地位卻備受爭議。

基礎被動語態

It is claimed by Beijing, but it's never been part of the People's Republic of China.

北京聲稱擁有該領土，但它從未成為中華人民共和國的一部分。

Instead, over the last 20 years, Taiwan has evolved into a thriving democracy.

相反，在過去 20 年裡，臺灣已發展成為一個繁榮的民主國家。

In 2016, people here chose their first female president, Tsai Ing-wen.

2016 年，這裡的人們選出了他們的第一位女總統蔡英文。

She rejects China's claims to Taiwan and has moved the island further towards Japan and the United States.

她拒絕接受中國對臺灣的主權要求，並將臺灣進一步推向日本和美國。

When I sat down with President Tsai at her home in Taipei, I began on that delicate topic, the threat from China, and whether it's increased under the leadership of Xi Jinping.

當我在蔡英文總統位於臺北的家中與她坐下來時，我首先談到了這個微妙的話題，即來自中國的威脅，以及在習近平的上司下，這種威脅是否有所增加。

Do you fear Xi Jinping? Do you think the world, the democratic world, should fear Xi Jinping and his ambitions?

你害怕習近平嗎？你認為世界，民主世界，應該害怕習近平和他的野心嗎？

I think Xi Jinping now dislikes the fact that he may have a plan of some sort.

我認為習近平現在不喜歡他可能有某種計劃的事實。

But I don't think that is a definitive plan, because the world is changing.

但我認為這不是一個確定的計劃，因為世界正在發生變化。

But the world is very different now, especially after the Ukrainian war, because the democracy seems to be able to get together to form a meaningful deterrence whenever there is an invasion contemplated.

但是，現在的世界已經大不相同了，尤其是在烏克蘭戰爭之後，因為每當有人考慮入侵時，民主國家似乎都能團結起來，形成有意義的威懾。

So if we deal with the matter very carefully, there's still a great possibility for us to maintain peace as we all need.

是以，如果我們非常謹慎地處理這件事，我們仍然有很大的可能維護我們大家都需要的和平。

Tsai's predecessor, President Ma Ying-jeou, had tried to negotiate with China, even holding a meeting with President Xi Jinping in Singapore.

蔡英文的前任總統馬英九曾試圖與中國談判，甚至在新加坡與習近平主席舉行了會晤。

Tsai's strategy has been completely different.

Instead of trying to conciliate China, she's built up Taiwan's own defences, nearly doubling spending, buying new fighter jets and developing Taiwan's first indigenous submarines.

她沒有試圖與中國和解，而是建立了臺灣自己的防禦體系，將支出增加了近一倍，購買了新型戰鬥機，並開發了臺灣第一艘本土潛艇。

Today the Lion Dance is to celebrate the opening of a new special forces training base on the outskirts of Taipei, another tangible example of where this new military spending is going.

今天的舞獅活動是為了慶祝臺北郊區一個新的特種部隊訓練基地的啟用，這是新軍費開支去向的又一個具體例子。

So I guess for President Tsai this is a sort of demonstration of what she's been trying to achieve in defence policy over the last eight years, because part of her big thing is that Taiwan doesn't spend enough on defence.

是以，我想對蔡英文總統來說，這是她過去八年來在防務政策上所做努力的一種展示，因為她的主要問題之一就是臺灣在防務上的投入不夠。

她上任時，這一比例約為國內生產總值的 2%。

She's managed to push that up to about 2.5% of GDP.

她成功地將這一比例提高到了國內生產總值的 2.5%左右。

A lot of people say Taiwan needs to be spending north of 3% of its GDP to have an effective military, given the huge threat that it faces from China.

很多人說，鑑於臺灣面臨來自中國的巨大威脅，臺灣需要將其 GDP 的 3% 以上用於軍事開支，才能擁有一支有效的軍隊。

One of the things you've done very differently from your predecessor, he engaged in dialogue with China, he was trying to get Taiwan into basically an economic partnership with China.

你所做的一件事與你的前任非常不同，你的前任與中國進行了對話，他試圖讓臺灣與中國建立基本的經濟夥伴關係。

You, when you came to power, decided on a very different course, it strikes me.

我覺得，您上臺後決定了一條截然不同的道路。

One of, firstly, building up Taiwan's own military strength.

其一，首先是加強臺灣自身的軍事力量。

I would say that the military capability of ours is much strengthened with the investments that we have put in in the last eight years, and also with the assistance of our friends, primarily from the United States.

我想說的是，由於我們在過去八年中的投資，也由於我們的朋友，主要是美國朋友的援助，我們的軍事能力大大加強了。

So the investment that we have put into the military capacity building is unprecedented.

是以，我們對軍事能力建設的投入是前所未有的。

Another major reform she's pushed through is a return to one year of compulsory military service.

她推動的另一項重大改革是恢復一年的義務兵役制。

She concedes it's not won her many supporters among young voters.

她承認，這並沒有為她在年輕選民中贏得多少支持者。

I was actually able to convince the public here that extension of the military service is something that we need to do, and I get the support of the people here.

實際上，我能夠說服這裡的公眾，延長兵役是我們需要做的事情，我得到了這裡人民的支持。

And also the young people, despite they have some complaint, but it's not about their love for the country.

還有年輕人，儘管他們有一些抱怨，但這與他們對國家的熱愛無關。

President Tsai's political opponents call her military strategy naive, even dangerous.

蔡英文總統的政治對手稱她的軍事戰略是幼稚的，甚至是危險的。

They point to the vastly superior military forces China now has at its disposal, and they say trying to defeat these with Taiwan's much smaller forces is a fool's errand.

他們指出，中國現在擁有強大的軍事力量，他們說，試圖用臺灣小得多的力量擊敗中國是痴人說夢。

China's military is vast, its military modernization is extraordinary, and that in the end, this is what your critics would say, is Taiwan cannot hope by itself to deter China militarily.

中國的軍事力量龐大，軍事現代化程度非同一般，最終，這就是你們的批評者會說的，臺灣無法指望自己在軍事上威懾中國。

Of course that makes some sense, but the cost of taking over Taiwan is going to be enormous, and Chinese leadership have to make a good calculation as to whether they are prepared to pay the cost.

這當然有一定道理，但接管臺灣的代價將是巨大的，中國領導人必須好好計算一下，他們是否準備好付出代價。

But what we need to do is to increase the cost of an invasion.

但我們需要做的是提高入侵的成本。

Strengthening our military capability is one, and working with our friends in the region to form a collective deterrence is another.

加強我們的軍事能力是其一，與我們在該地區的朋友合作形成集體威懾是其二。

I suppose, again, just playing devil's advocate here, your critics would say, well, that's all very well, but Taiwan has very few formal diplomatic allies.

我想，還是那句老話，你的批評者會說，這很好，但臺灣的正式外交盟友很少。

It doesn't have any formal military alliances.

And that during the last eight years, particularly the last four years, the situation around Taiwan has actually become objectively more threatening.

在過去八年中，尤其是最近四年，臺灣周邊的局勢客觀上變得更具威脅性。

Of course, we cannot exclude any possibility at the moment, including a possible military conflict and invasion from China.

當然，我們目前不能排除任何可能性，包括可能發生的軍事衝突和來自中國的入侵。

But the thing is, with the collective efforts of the parties concerned in the region,

但問題是，在該地區有關各方的共同努力下、

China actually feels the pressure, because it's not only military, it's a concern.

中國實際上感受到了壓力，因為這不僅是軍事上的，更是一種關切。

They have to be aware of the fact that a war may cost their economic development, and the economic consequences is such that it may probably delay the development of China for years, even for decades.

他們必須意識到，一場戰爭可能會使他們的經濟發展付出代價，其經濟後果可能會使中國的發展延後數年甚至數十年。

So if you are a leader of China, what is more important, taking over Taiwan or your continuing growth economically and socially?

那麼，如果您是中國的領導人，什麼更重要？是接管臺灣，還是在經濟和社會方面繼續發展？

Absolutely crucial to Tsai's strategy of deterring China is support from America.

美國的支持對蔡英文威懾中國的戰略絕對至關重要。

For decades, the United States has kept China guessing as to whether they would or would not defend Taiwan if Beijing attacked.

幾十年來，美國一直讓中國猜測，如果北京進攻臺灣，他們是否會保衛臺灣。

But following the Russian invasion of Ukraine,

President Joe Biden has broken with that tradition, saying repeatedly he would send US troops to defend Taiwan.

喬-拜登總統打破了這一傳統，多次表示他將派遣美軍保衛臺灣。

Are you willing to get involved militarily to defend Taiwan if it comes to that?

如果真的到了那一步，您是否願意捲入軍事行動，保衛臺灣？

President Biden has been extremely supportive of Taiwan.

When asked about whether he would intervene if Taiwan were attacked, he has repeatedly said yes.

當被問及如果臺灣受到攻擊，他是否會進行干預時，他一再表示會。

His critics have said that that is moving America too far away from this idea of strategic ambiguity, and that actually that makes the situation for Taiwan more dangerous.

責備他的人說，這讓美國離戰略模糊的想法太遠了，實際上這讓臺灣的局勢更加危險。

I think the US administration has been very careful in delivering the messages they want to deliver to the public.

我認為美國政府在向公眾傳遞信息時非常謹慎。

So as far as I'm concerned, the way I read it is that the ambiguity is still there.

是以，就我而言，我的理解是，模糊性仍然存在。

How important is victory on the battlefield for Ukraine and continued Western support for Ukraine in terms of how it affects Taiwan?

烏克蘭戰場上的勝利和西方對烏克蘭的持續支持對臺灣的影響有多大？

Many people suggest that Taiwan is a much more important case than Ukraine.

許多人認為，臺灣比烏克蘭重要得多。

And there are arguments that perhaps the US should shift their support and resources from Ukraine to Taiwan.

有觀點認為，也許美國應該把對烏克蘭的支持和資源轉移到臺灣。

We say no, you have to support Ukraine until the very end.

我們說不行，你們必須支持烏克蘭，直到最後一刻。

President Tsai is a famous dog and cat lover.

蔡英文總統是有名的貓狗愛好者。

She takes me to meet her four dogs and two cats.

她帶我去見她的四條狗和兩隻貓。

She is a retired rescue dog. She is now 12 years old.

她是一隻退役的救助犬。現年 12 歲。

The president is also something of an anglophile, having spent the early 1980s studying for a PhD in law at the London School of Economics, just when Britain had elected its first female prime minister, Margaret Thatcher.

總統也是一位 "英國迷"，20 世紀 80 年代初，他曾在倫敦經濟學院攻讀法學博士，當時英國剛剛選出第一位女首相瑪格麗特-撒切爾（Margaret Thatcher）。

I looked at the dates. In the UK you did your PhD in 1984.

我看了一下日期。在英國，您是在 1984 年取得博士學位的。

I wonder, did you register that when you were in the UK, that this was Britain's first female prime minister, even if you didn't like her?

我想知道，你在英國時是否知道這是英國第一位女首相，即使你並不喜歡她？

She is a very determined lady. I have a lot of admiration for her, despite the fact that I may not be in agreement with all her policies.

她是一位非常果斷的女士。儘管我可能並不贊同她的所有政策，但我非常欽佩她。

但作為一個領導者，她是個強硬的人。

One thing that comes across very clearly from spending time with President Tsai is that in spite of it looking very much like China, with a similar language, customs and religious beliefs, she sees Taiwan as a different, separate place with its own unique history.

在與蔡英文總統的相處中，有一點非常明顯，那就是儘管臺灣看起來非常像中國，有著相似的語言、習俗和宗教信仰，但她認為臺灣是一個不同的、獨立的地方，有著自己獨特的歷史。

It was first colonised by the Dutch, the Spanish, and later the Japanese and Chinese.

荷蘭人、西班牙人、日本人和中國人先後在此殖民。

So it's all left a legacy here that makes it very different.

是以，這一切在這裡留下的遺產讓這裡變得與眾不同。

Yes. So we have a very diverse culture here.

是的，所以我們這裡的文化非常多元化。

This is still a very patriarchal society.

這仍然是一個非常重男輕女的社會。

You, I know, have appointed many women to high positions in government.

我知道，您任命了許多女性擔任政府要職。

You appointed the first transgender cabinet minister in Taiwan's history, maybe in Asia's history, I'm not sure.

您任命了臺灣歷史上，也許是亞洲歷史上第一位變性內閣部長，我不確定。

Do you think there's an enduring legacy there that will last?

你認為那裡會有持久的遺產嗎？

Or is there a danger Taiwan could revert to what I might call the boys' club once you're gone?

還是說，一旦你走了，臺灣就有可能回到我所說的男孩俱樂部？

I have a lot of objection about that boys' club that you use.

我非常反對你所說的男孩俱樂部。

People thought it was some sort of unusual happening in Taiwan.

人們還以為是臺灣發生了什麼不尋常的事情。

But I want to say that the Taiwan society and democracy nowadays are mature enough to produce and accept a woman president.

但我想說的是，如今的臺灣社會和民主制度已經足夠成熟，足以產生和接受一位女總統。

And that is a tremendous achievement of the Taiwan society.

In 2019, despite resistance from conservative religious and family groups, her government pushed through legislation making Taiwan the first place in Asia to legalise same-sex marriage.

2019 年，儘管受到保守宗教和家庭團體的抵制，她的政府還是推動通過了立法，使臺灣成為亞洲第一個同性婚姻合法化的地方。

You were well ahead of any other country in Asia in pushing through that legislation.

在推動這項立法方面，你們遠遠走在了亞洲其他國家的前面。

Why was that such an important priority for you?

為什麼這對您來說是如此重要的優先事項？

Because that's the hope of the younger generation, because that is a way to express ourselves as a more advanced country in terms of the progressive values.

因為這是年輕一代的希望，因為這是表達我們作為一個在進步價值觀方面更先進的國家的一種方式。

And also we have very active advocates for the same-sex marriage here.

此外，我們這裡還有非常積極的同性婚姻倡導者。

And it's a test to the society here to see to what extent they can move forward with their values.

這也是對這裡的社會的一次考驗，看看他們能在多大程度上堅持自己的價值觀。

I am actually rather proud that we managed to overcome our differences and get together and produce a package that we can all live with.

實際上，我感到相當自豪的是，我們設法克服了分歧，走到了一起，制定了一個我們都能接受的方案。

In a few days from now, President Tsai will hand over to her successor,

再過幾天，蔡英文總統將與繼任者交接、

Taiwan's current Vice President William Lai.

He has promised to continue her legacy of protecting Taiwan's status quo.

他承諾繼承她保護臺灣現狀的傳統。

Most people here in Taiwan, when you look at surveys and you ask them, they say we want to maintain the status quo.

在臺灣，大多數人在接受調查和詢問時，都會說我們希望維持現狀。

No unification, no independence, status quo.

I think all the people agree on this thing that we are on our own.

我想所有人都同意，我們只能靠自己。