Now I'm not someone that wakes up early.

我可不是早起的人。

I know, no alarm clock and you're usually up by 11.

我知道你沒有鬧鐘，通常 11 點起床。

So no meetings before 11.

所以 11 點之前不能開會。

Okay, got it.

好的，知道了。

So I stay up quite late.

所以我經常熬夜。

What's the best case you could give me for changing that?

你有什麼好辦法讓我改變這種狀況？

And do I need to change that?

我需要改變這一點嗎？

Because what I do is, you know, I flew into LA, I'm jet lagged, I'm flying back in a couple of days, I'm going to be jet lagged when I land as well.

因為我所做的就是，你知道，我飛到洛杉磯，時差還沒倒過來，過幾天我又要飛回來，落地時我的時差也會倒過來。

So what I'm trying to do is just protect my sleep at all costs, because I've come to learn that it's really the foundation of my performance.

所以，我現在要做的就是不惜一切代價保護我的睡眠，因為我已經意識到，睡眠是我工作的基礎。

So if I'm unslept, and I show up at work, the chance that I'm not going to show up correctly, in a variety of ways, emotionally, creatively, whatever, is high.

如果我沒睡好就去上班，那麼我就很有可能無法以正確的方式出現在工作中，無論是在情感上、創造力上還是其他方面。

And that for me is the greatest risk.

對我來說，這才是最大的風險。

So I just, in the last sort of year or two of my life, I've just said, okay, prioritize sleep, because then everything else seems to follow.

所以，在過去一兩年的生活中，我就說，好吧，優先考慮睡眠，因為其他一切似乎都會隨之而來。

When I heard that you wake up sometimes at 4:45 or 4:30, like pretty much all the time, and I've literally seen you on social media, upload your alarm clock, day after day after day, I go, shit, maybe I should rethink.

當我聽說你有時會在 4 點 45 分或 4 點 30 分起床，幾乎所有時間都是如此，而且我還在社交媒體上看到你上傳鬧鐘，日復一日，我就想，媽的，也許我應該重新考慮一下。

No, I think if you've got a system that's working well for you, and then I wouldn't change anything, right?

不，我認為如果你已經有了一個對你很有效的系統，那麼我不會改變任何東西，對嗎？

If you feel like you're performing well, you're physically healthy, you're getting all the work done that you need to do, you're naturally more of a late night, late morning type person, I'd run with it.

如果你覺得自己表現出色，身體健康，完成了所有需要完成的工作，你自然會更喜歡深夜和清晨，我會保持這樣。

If you were telling me, yeah, sometimes I get up, sometimes I don't, sometimes I work late, sometimes I don't, I don't work out every day, sometimes I feel groggy.

如果你告訴我，是的，我有時起床，有時不起床，有時加班，有時不加班，我不是每天都鍛鍊，有時我感覺昏昏沉沉。

If you were telling me that kind of thing, I'd say, okay, pick a time and start waking up at that time every day.

如果你跟我說這種話，我會說，好吧，選一個時間，每天在那個時間起床。

It doesn't have to be 4.40, it could be 8 o'clock, could be 7 o'clock, it doesn't matter.

不一定非得是 4 點 40 分，可以是 8 點，也可以是 7 點，這都沒關係。

Could be 11 o'clock.

可能是 11 點鐘。

But try and go to bed around the same time and try and wake up around the same time.

但要儘量在同一時間睡覺，並儘量在同一時間起床。

And that's going to be a great foundation for everything that you're doing.

這將為你所做的一切打下堅實的基礎。

And I would say when you wake up in the morning, do some kind of exercise.

我想說的是，當你早上醒來時，做一些運動。

Because I think that is very helpful in getting your day started correctly.

因為我認為這對正確開始一天的生活很有幫助。

What are your non-negotiables in your life in terms of habits, routines, disciplines?

在習慣、常規和紀律方面，你的生活中有哪些不可或缺的東西？

I wake up early and I work out every day.

我每天早起鍛鍊。

That's kind of my... those are the minimum requirements in my life.

這就是我，這就是我生活中的最低要求。

Train jiu-jitsu. I don't get to train jiu-jitsu every single day.

訓練柔術，我不是每天都能訓練柔術。

But if I can train jiu-jitsu, I'm going to train jiu-jitsu, I'm going to work out every day.

但如果我能訓練柔術，我就會訓練柔術，每天都會鍛鍊。

If I can surf, I'm going to surf, you know.

如果我能衝浪，我就會去衝浪，你知道的。

I obviously have to work every day.

顯然，我每天都要工作。

I work every day doing something.

我每天都在做事。

You know, I've got a bunch of different companies, I got to write books, podcasts, I work every day.

你知道，我有很多不同的公司，我要寫書、播客，我每天都在工作。

Are you ever undisciplined?

你曾經不守紀律嗎？

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

哦，是的，是的，是的。

Chocolate chip cookies, they're a discipline lapse for me.

巧克力脆片餅乾，對我來說是紀律的缺失。

Yeah, so yeah, I'm not a cyborg.

是的，所以是的，我不是半機械人。

When people look at someone like you, that's, you know, done all the things you've done, you've been a SEAL and you've written all these books and started these companies and actually the drink I'm drinking now is one of your products, which is the, what's that in front of you?

當人們看到像你這樣的人，做了你所做的一切，你曾是海豹突擊隊隊員，你寫了這麼多書，創辦了這麼多公司，實際上我現在喝的飲料就是你的產品之一，你面前的是什麼？

Yeah, it's a, it's an energy drink called Go.

是的，這是一種叫 Go 的能量飲料。

Called Go.

叫 Go。

Delicious, by the way.

順便說一句，非常美味。

Oh, thank you.

哦，謝謝。

I think my mouth has been connected to my brain during this interview, so I think it's working.

在這次採訪中，我覺得我的嘴已經和我的大腦連接在一起了，所以我覺得它起作用了。

I understand there's misconceptions that people have of me, because they assume, it's kind of like the halo effect, we assume because someone's done something well, they do all things well.

我知道人們對我有誤解，因為他們認為，這有點像光環效應，我們認為一個人做得好，就會把所有事情都做好。

And there are so many things that I think would really liberate people and make them inspired if they could see how deficient I was in so many things in my life, you know,

我認為，如果人們能夠看到我在生活中的許多事情上有多麼的不足，我認為有很多事情會真正解放人們並激勵他們，你知道，

because they just assume that if you've done one thing well, you have a good podcast, you have a good, you must be like, you know, the perfect picture of...

因為他們只是假設，如果你把一件事做得很好，你就有一個很好的播客，你有一個很好的，你一定是，你知道，完美的畫面......

What are the big misconceptions generally, moving away from this idea of imperfection, but just generally about Jocko, because you realize you've become a bit of a character, right?

一般來說，最大的誤解是什麼，遠離這種不完美的想法，但一般來說，關於喬科，因為你意識到你已經成為一個角色，對吧？

You know, like Navy SEAL, that comes with an identity package.

你知道的，就像海豹突擊隊一樣，這是有身份包的。

Yeah, I think the biggest misconception, I think, and it's not just me, but it's really the military in general, is the misconception of this kind of authoritarian, and even authoritarian dictatorship from a leadership perspective.

是的，我認為最大的誤解，不只是我，而是整個軍隊，是對這種專制的誤解，甚至是從上司角度看專制獨裁的誤解。

And even when we were having this conversation, I said, I'm going to let my subordinates plan.

甚至在我們進行這次談話時，我還說，我要讓我的下屬來計劃。

And you kind of had a stunned look on your face, like, what are you talking about?

你一臉驚愕，好像在說什麼？

Why would you let your subordinates plan?

為什麼要讓你的下屬計劃？

And so there's an idea and a misconception that the leader is going to stand up and bark all the orders.

是以，人們有一種想法和誤解，認為領導者要站出來發號施令。

So that's one misconception.

所以這是一個誤解。

Another one is I look like a Neanderthal, and so people think I'm going to scream and yell at everybody, and I never yell at anybody, you know.

另一個原因是我看起來像個尼安德特人，所以人們認為我會對每個人大喊大叫，而我從不對任何人大喊大叫，你知道的。

My business partner, Leif Babin, who's worked with me, he was in my task unit at SEAL Team Three and deployed to Ramadi with me.

我的商業夥伴萊夫-巴賓曾與我共事，他曾是我在海豹突擊隊的特遣部隊成員。三人和我一起部署到拉馬迪。

And now we've written a couple books together, we have a business together, and he was like my direct subordinate in Ramadi and during a workup, and I never yelled at him.

現在我們一起寫了幾本書，一起做生意，他就像我在拉馬迪和工作期間的直接下屬，我從沒對他吼叫過。

And he likes to point out that he gave me plenty of reasons to yell at him, but never yelled at him, because what good is that?

他還喜歡指出，他給了我很多罵他的理由，但從來沒有罵過他，因為那有什麼用呢？

And by the way, if I have to yell at somebody, what does that say?

順便說一句，如果我必須對某人大喊大叫，那又能說明什麼呢？

That means if I have to yell at you to get my point across as a leader, I've made like 47 other mistakes.

這意味著，如果作為上司，我必須對你大喊大叫才能讓你明白我的意思，那我就犯了像其他 47 個錯誤一樣的錯誤。

My goal is I don't even have to say anything.

我的目標是什麼都不用說。

That's my goal as a leader.

這就是我作為領導者的目標。

My goal is I don't have to say a word, and you already know what to do, and you make it happen.

我的目標是，我什麼都不用說，你已經知道該怎麼做，然後你去實現它。

And I look at you and give you a thumbs up and say, good job.

我看著你，豎起大拇指說，幹得好。

That's my goal.

這就是我的目標。

So I think the biggest misconception is the idea of someone in the military or myself being an authoritarian leader, being very closed-minded.

是以，我認為最大的誤解是認為軍隊中的人或我自己是一個獨裁的領導者，思想非常封閉。

I got asked a question the other day about, if China attacked Taiwan and you were taking troops in there, what would you be focused on?

前幾天有人問我，如果中國進攻臺灣，而你要帶兵去那裡，你會關注什麼？

And I said, I'd be focused on keeping an open mind.

我說，我會集中精力，保持開放的心態。

Because if you have a closed mind about what the mission is, about how it's gonna happen, about what your troops are gonna do, about what the enemy's gonna do, if you have a closed mind about those things, you're gonna get caught off guard.

因為如果你對任務是什麼、任務會如何進行、你的部隊會怎麼做、敵人會怎麼做等問題閉口不談，你就會措手不及。

You have to have an open mind.

你必須有開放的心態。

You have to be accepting of the information that you're receiving.

你必須接受你接收到的資訊。

You have to be accepting of the other ideas that other people have.

你必須接受別人的其他想法。

And if you have a closed mind, you're gonna fall apart.

如果你思想封閉，你就會崩潰。

Kind of counterintuitive in some ways, because the reason people often think they've been made the leader because they have loads of the correct ideas.

從某種程度上來說，這有點違背直覺，因為人們之所以認為自己是領導者，往往是因為他們有很多正確的想法。

So I think as people often climb in life, they go, well, I've been right so much that they've put me here as CEO.

是以，我認為，正如人們在生活中經常攀登的那樣，他們會想，好吧，我一直都是對的，所以他們讓我在這裡擔任首席執行官。

So now I need to defend my righteousness at all costs, even when I'm not sure, because that's a weakness.

所以，現在我需要不惜一切代價捍衛我的正義，即使在我不確定的時候，因為那是我的弱點。

And you quoted Steve Jobs earlier.

你剛才還引用了喬布斯的話。

And I think actually it's from your book, which was, I don't hire people so I can tell them what to do; I hire good people so they can tell me what to do.

我認為這其實是你書中的一句話，那就是，我僱人不是為了告訴他們該做什麼。我僱用優秀人才，就是為了讓他們告訴我該怎麼做。

So yes, in a leadership position, you should be listening more than you should be talking.

所以，是的，在領導崗位上，比起多說，你應該多聽。