Like do you wake up in the morning and make lists and cross things off and then decide what are the key items on that list?

比如，你會不會早上起來就列清單，完成就劃掉，然後決定清單上的關鍵項目是什麼？

No, I'm a time blocker.

不，我使用時間分塊法。

Time blocker, okay. - Yeah.

時間分塊法，好喔。- 對的。

Yeah, so I'm not a big believer in to-do list, I like to grapple with the actual available time.

是的，我不太相信待辦事項清單，我喜歡抓住實際可用的時間。

Like, okay, I have a meeting here, I have to like pick my kids up from school here.

比如，這個時間我有會議，這個時間我得接孩子放學。

Here's the actual hours of the day that are free and where they fall.

以下是每天實際空出來的時間以及它們在什麼時候。

All right, what do I want to do with that time?

好吧，這段時間我想做什麼？

Well, okay, now that I see that there's a lot of gaps in the middle of the day here, they're short, maybe there I'm going to do a lot of small non-cognitively demanding thing.

嗯，好吧，現在我看到這邊白天有很多空閒時間，時間很短，也許這時間我會做很多比較小、不用太動腦的事情。

Oh, this first 90 minutes in the morning is like the main time I have uninterrupted.

哦，早晨的前 90 分鐘這是我最不間斷的時間。

Okay, so this, I'm going to work on writing.

所以，這段時間我會努力寫作。

So I've been a big believer of this since I was an undergrad.

我一直堅信這一點，從我讀大學就開始了。

Like you give your time a job as opposed to having a list, which is somewhat orthogonal to what's actually happening in your day.

像是給自己的時間安排了一份工作，而不是列出一份清單，這與你一天中實際發生的事情有些正交。

And then just as you go through your day saying, "What do I want to try to do next?" Which I think is a lot less efficient.

當你每天都在說：「下一步我想做什麼？」我認為這樣效率會低很多。

I'm going to try your method.

我要試試你的方法。

I try and structure my days as much as I can but it just never quite works.

我儘可能安排好自己的每一天，但始終無法奏效。

Do you work late into the night or you, no?

你會工作到深夜嗎？

No, I'm a 5:30 man.

不，我是一個 5:30 就休息的人。

Okay. - Yeah.

好喔。- 對啊。

So 5:30 p.m., that's it?

下午5點半，就結束工作？

Yeah, more or less, that's my cutoff.

是的，早點或晚一點，五點半就是我的分界線。

Now, one exception is if I'm writing on deadline, I'll sometimes, like if I need to get more writing done, I can do an evening writing session which I got used to through long experience of, I used to write my blog post at night after like my kids went to bed.

現在，一個例外是，如果我要在截止日期前寫作，我有時會，例如如果我需要完成更多寫作，我可以做一個晚上的寫作課程，我透過長期的經驗習慣了，我曾經在我的孩子們上床睡覺後寫表部落格文章。

Now they're older and they don't go to bed as early.

現在他們長大了，不會那麼早睡了。

So it's like the one thing I have left that I'll do after 5:30 is like every once in a while I'll do like a 90-minute evening writing block.

所以，五點半之後我唯一會做的事情是，我偶爾會在晚上進行 90 分鐘的寫作。

But I call this, by the way, this whole philosophy, I call fixed schedule productivity.

順便說一句，我把這叫做「整體哲學」，我稱之為固定日程生產力。

And I've been doing it since I was a grad student, fix the work hour schedule, that's my commitment.

我從研究所學生時代就開始做這件事了，固定工作時間，這是我的承諾。

I work in these hours and then work downstream from that for everything else.

我在這些時間工作然後在此基礎上再向下進行其他工作。

So like this controls like even what you decide to bring into your life 'cause you know I can't go past the schedule and it drives you to be more innovative in how you deal with your time and schedule.

因此，就像這樣的控制，甚至是你決定帶入你的生活的東西，因為你知道我不能超越時間表，它會驅使你在如何處理你的時間和時間表方面更具創新性。

You have to be efficient because you only have these hours here.

你必須有效率，因為這個時端只有空出這幾個小時。

That's been a signal for my life since I was in my early 20s.

從我20歲出頭起，這就是我人生的一個訊號。

Fix the schedule and don't work outside of that schedule.

確定時間表，不要在時間表之外工作。

Now it's your move to figure out, anything you want to do, you have to make that work.

現在就看你怎麼想了，想做什麼都行，你必須做到這一點。

You want to become a professor, figure out how to make that work.

你想當教授，就想辦法讓它發揮作用。

You want to write books while you're being a professor, figure out how to make that work.

你想一邊當教授，一邊寫書，就想辦法讓它發揮作用。

You don't have the option of just throwing hours at it.

你不能選擇一味地投入時間。

And you innovate a lot, I think, when you have the constraints.

你的創新能力很強我認為，當你有制約因素時。

Where do sleep and exercise fit into your schedule?

睡眠和健身與你的日程安排有何關係？

What's your typical to bedtime, wake up time, what's your typical exercise routine?

你通常的就寢和起床時間是幾點？你的通常怎麼健身？

And the reason I ask about this is because I think nowadays we hopefully people understand that exercise and cognitive function are inextricably linked.

我之所以問這個問題，是因為我認為如今我們希望人們明白，運動與認知功能密不可分。

Yeah.

是啊。

And we're all going to live longer lives and be sharper mentally by doing exercise.

我們都將活得更長，並通過健身使腦袋更靈光。

Yeah, so, I mean, my main like actual working with weights, I do this pre-dinner, right.

是啊，所以，我的意思是，我的主要愛好是舉重，我會在吃晚餐前做。

And this was an innovation of the last couple of years, it's a fantastic psychologically for me.

這也是最近幾年的一項創新，這對我來說是個絕妙的心理治療。

This is a transition from work to like family time after work.

這是從工作到下班後的家庭時間的過渡。

So I'll do like 45, 50 minutes garage gym that we built during COVID after I'm done working before dinner.

所以我會在晚餐前完成工作後，去我們在新冠疫情期間建造的車庫健身房健身45、50 分鐘。

And once you get used to that, like it also forces you like, I got to finish work 'cause I got to get this in before dinner.

一旦你習慣了，就像它也迫使你喜歡，我必須完成工作，因為我必須在晚餐前把它完成。

But then I'll do also quite a bit of walking if it's not a teaching day so I'm not on campus. I do a lot of thinking on foot, walking my kids to the bus stop which isn't particularly close and back.

但如果不是教學日，不在校園裡，我也會走很多路。 我步行思考了很多事情，步行帶孩子們去不是特別近的公車站然後回來。

So I'll do a lot of walking.

所以我會走很多路。

But my serious exercise now is always pre-dinner.

但我現在認真健身的時間總是在晚餐前。

Then I want to be up in our room by 10.

然後，我想在 10 點前回到房間。

And then at that point I don't track, so I have insomnia issues, which actually has been like key driver of a lot of the things I think about, especially with slow productivity,

然後在那一點上我不追蹤。我有失眠問題，這實際上是我思考的很多事情的關鍵驅動因素，特別是在生產力低下的情況下，

is I'm very wary because I can without any control on my own, just find myself unable to sleep sometimes.

我非常警惕，因為我自己無法控制，有時會發現自己無法入睡。

Fall asleep or stay asleep?

入睡還是保持睡眠？

Fall asleep, yeah.

入睡。

I mean, I used to get it really bad.

我的意思是，我曾經失眠很嚴重。

Not so bad now but you know, it comes and goes.

現在沒那麼糟了，但你知道，來得快去得也快。

That really affected the way I thought about productivity,

這確實影響了我對生產力的思考，

because it seemed like to me the definition of just "I get after it with a bunch of stuff" wasn't really on the table because if my notion of productivity depended on me like every day being able to just like hammer on a bunch of stuff.

因為如果我的生產力定義是每天都必須像機器一樣一直辛勤工作，那麼這樣的生活方式對我來說可能不適用。

I'm very busy, I have lots of commitments.

我很忙，有很多承諾。

What would happen if I couldn't sleep? I wouldn't be able to do that.

如果我睡不著會怎麼樣？我無法做到這一點。

So I drifted naturally towards a definition of productivity which was, it doesn't really matter if you work tomorrow, but it is important that like this month you work, like writing a book.

我自然而然地傾向於一個對生產力的定義，即明天是否工作並不重要，但重要的是在這個月內你有所成果，比如寫一本書。

It doesn't matter if you work on your book chapter tomorrow in particular, but like this month you have to spend a lot of time working on it.

明天特別努力寫這段章節這件事並不重要，但在這個月裡你必須花很多時間來進行這項工作。

So it was like an insomnia-compatible definition of productivity was sort of morphed into this idea of slow productivity, taking your time with it.

這種對於生產力的定義，對於失眠症患者來說更為適合，逐漸演變成了一種慢生產力的概念，即用心慢慢地完成工作。

So it's interesting.

所以這很有趣。

So like sleep issues really shaped the way I thought about work and put me on these much longer timescales of productivity.

睡眠問題塑造了我對工作的看法，使我進入了更長的生產力時程。

Try not to be dependent on any particular day being critical to what you do.

嘗試不要依賴於某一天對你所做的事情至關重要。

I don't want the high stress situation.

我不想要這種高度緊張的狀況。

I don't want the like I'm just going to, 10 hours a day for the next 10 days, we're going to make this deal happen.

我不想每天花十個小時，接下來的十天，讓這件事情發生。

Like I can't operate in that space 'cause I worry about it, anytime my brain could betray me and I could like lose sleep for a couple days.

我無法在這種情況下運作，因為我會擔心，隨時我的大腦可能背叛我，我可能會失眠幾天。

I think it's really important that you're sharing this because while people's challenges differ.

我認為你分享這一點很重要，因為雖然每個人的挑戰都不同。

I think oftentimes people hear the content of my podcast or other podcasts and think, "Oh, gosh, I have to have everything dialed in just right."

我認為很多時候人們聽到我的播客或其他播客的內容，就會認為：「天哪，我必須把一切都安排得恰到好處。」

When in fact, most all of the tools and protocols that have been discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast are in response to a particular challenge that I've had or that others close to me have had.

事實上，Huberman Lab 播客中討論的大多數工具和協議都是針對我自己或我身邊其他人所面臨的特定挑戰而設計的。

And I love this.

我喜歡這個。

Well, I'm sorry that you suffer from insomnia, we have a series on sleep with Matt Walker in which he lays out some great tools that we haven't yet discussed on the podcast.

嗯，很抱歉你遭受失眠之苦。我們有一系列關於睡眠的節目，Matt Walker 在其中介紹了一些很棒的工具，這些工具我們在節目中還未討論過。

I'll just send you, I'll text you, I'll call you with a short list of those and hopefully they'll help as we do cover insomnia in some depth.

我會把這些資訊發送給你，可以透過短信或是打電話告訴你。希望這些工具能對你有所幫助，因為我們會深入探討失眠問題。

But I think it's important that people realize that they can be very productive with the hours that they have and the moments or hours of high-focus clarity that they have even if they're not sleeping great, even if they're raising small children,

但我認為重要的是讓人們意識到，即使他們睡眠不佳，甚至是在照顧幼小的孩子，他們仍然可以利用他們擁有的時間和高度專注的時刻來提高生產力，

because that's the real world and certainly that's the real world of deadlines and academia but family and colds and flus and travel and jet lag and arguments and all the happy stuff too.

因為這就是現實，這也是處於截止日期和學術界的現實，但同樣也包括家庭、感冒、流感、旅行、時差、爭執，以及所有美好的事物。

Vacations, so sounds like you're very good at adapting your day to what's going on around it but that you have certain sort of committed time.

休假也是如此。聽起來你很擅長根據周遭環境調整你的日程安排，但同時你也有一些固定的時間。

Am I correct in assuming that you have at least one period of say, 60 to 90 minutes of real, what you would call deep work, let's say at least five days a week?

我假設你每週至少有五天的某個時段，比如說 60 到 90 分鐘的真正深度工作時間，這是正確的嗎？

I know that might be an underestimate but it seems like that's what-

我知道這可能是一個低估，但看起來似乎是這樣。

That the goal.

這就是目標。

That's what I'm extracting from this.

這就是我從中得出的結論。

That's the goal, right?

這就是目標，對嗎？

So to me, depending on the season, is how extreme that can get.

所以對我來說，根據季節的不同，情況會變得多麼極端。

So the busiest season would be like a teaching semester, right?

所以最繁忙的季節就像是教學學期，對嗎？

But even then, I'm going to make sure that five days a week I'm starting with deep work and the non-teaching days are more than the teaching days.

但即便如此，我也會確保每週有五天開始深度工作，並且非教學日比教學日多。

Compared that to the summer, for example, where all I do for the most part is deep work.

例如，與夏天相比，我大部分時間所做的都是深度工作。

No meetings on Mondays and Fridays, all admin stuff is midday to early afternoon, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.

星期一和星期五不安排任何會議，所有行政工作都安排在中午到下午初的時段，週二、週三、週四。

Everything else is deep work, you know?

其他時間都用於深度工作。

Just locked in, hours at a time.

專注於一段時間。

But I want, if I'm not getting five days, five days of starting the day with deep work, I'm unhappy, right?

但我想，如果我沒有五天，五天開始工作的時間，我就會感到不滿意，對吧？

Because I mean, I keep coming back to this is, okay, because I'm not going to be able to, I mean, fortunately, the insomnia hasn't bothered me in years but the threat of it like completely shaped the way I think about things and because I know I'm never going to be, have a sort of like an Elon Musk style energy of like, I can just take on seven companies and make it happen, right?

因為我一直回到這一點，就是，我不會能夠，我是幸運的，失眠已經幾年沒有困擾我了，但它的威脅完全塑造了我對事物的看法，因為我知道我永遠不會擁有一種像伊隆·馬斯克那樣的能量，可以應付七個公司並讓它實現，對吧？

I just don't have that ability.

我就是沒有那個能力。

I've always focused on the long game and to me the long game plays out with get your deep work time in, you know?

我一直專注於長期規劃，對我來說，長期規劃就是確保有足夠的深度工作時間。

Just keep working on the stuff you do best and get better at it, you know?

繼續專注於你最擅長的事情，並不斷進步，你知道的。

Tomorrow doesn't matter.

明天並不重要。

But if you're doing this most days for the next four months, like that's going to matter, you know?

但如果你接下來的四個月大多數時間都在這樣做，那麼這將是重要的，你知道的。

And so I often think about productivity in my own life at the scale of decades.

所以我經常會以十年為尺度來思考自己的生產力。

Like what do I want to do in my 20s, you know?

比如說，在我的二十歲，我想做什麼，你知道的？

Okay, what do I want to do in my 30s?

我 30 多歲時想做什麼？

You know, what do I want to do in my 40s?

我 40 多歲時想做什麼嗎？

And that helps.

這很有幫助。

Like in my 30s, I had a lot of young kids like it's, yeah, I mean, the amount of time I could spend total working is like much less, right?

在我 30 多歲的時候，我有很多年幼的孩子，我的意思是，我可以花在工作上的總時間少得多，對吧？

But I could still think about what do I want to do in my 30s?

但我仍然可以想一想，我 30 多歲時想做什麼？

How do I make that happen?

怎樣才能做到這一點？

Let me make sure I'm pushing like on those things.

讓我確保我在這些事情上持續努力。

Then everything else I can adapt to, I can give here and there, you know?

那麼其他的事情我可以適應，我可以在這裡和那裡做出讓步，你知道的。

It allows you to be very adaptable when you're thinking about what do I want to do for the next 10 years.

這讓你在思考未來十年要做什麼時非常靈活。

It also means you're not on a random Tuesday chiding yourself because like, why didn't I get three more hours of work in?

這也意味著在一個隨機的星期二，你不會責怪自己，為什麼我沒有再多工作三個小時？

And that becomes sort of a nonsensical question.

這就變成了一個荒謬的問題。

And what you care about is like what happens in the next decade, which is, that's the long game.

而你該關心的是接下來十年會發生什麼，那才是長期規劃。

It's not about hustling today.

這不是關於今天的奔波。

It's about, I came back to deep work day after day after day when other people got distracted by TikTok.

這是關於，我一天又一天地回到深度工作，而其他人卻被 TikTok 分心了。

Like I got to, yeah, whatever, it's that coming back to what matters again and again.

對，無論如何，就是一次又一次地回歸到重要的事情上。