歐巴馬電視訪談（Barack Obama - Protecting Democracy and the Commitment to Facts

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[cheering]
Welcome back to The Daily Show.
Our guest tonight is here to discuss the inaugural Obama
Foundation Democracy Forum, and how
he's training the next generation of young leaders
in the US and around the world.
Please welcome the 44th president of the United
States, Barack Obama.
[cheering]
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Yeah, that's right.
I should have brought Michelle here, so that you could--
[cheering]
This is how I'd like to be greeted when I come home.
But I feel like Michelle's the star now, right?
Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
Mr. President, welcome to The Daily Show.
It is wonderful to see you.
Do you miss your name, by the way?
Because everyone calls you Mr. President, but like,
I feel like I would, like if people
called me like Mr. Daily, I would
miss just being called Trevor.
Do you miss your name sometimes?
My best friends call me Barack.
TREVOR NOAH: OK, OK. So, Barack.
You should call me Mr. President.
TREVOR NOAH: Oh, I knew it.
But--
You know, I was--
[laughs] welcome to the show.
Let's start with, I mean, the most pressing news.
The midterms just happened.
You know, America voted.
The House is flipping.
Democrats have held onto the Senate.
Many credit you for coming out and pushing
out people to vote.
I would love to know two parts to that.
Number one, do you do you feel pressure whenever
you're asked to come out?
It's like in the movies when they need
that home run and the bases are load and the team's losing
and they go, Barack, we need you
to hit this out of the park, we might lose everything.
Do you feel the pressure?
Does it get to you?
And second of all, what does it say
about the state of the Democratic party
that they always need you to come out and do
that before an election?
Look, I think that the reason we did better
than expected can be attributed to not me or anything I did,
but it has to do with A, we recruited
some excellent candidates.
You look like at a Wes Moore in Maryland, a Josh
Shapiro in Pennsylvania.
You look at our Senate candidates,
you know, John Fetterman and Mark Kelly.
They are committed, passionate, down to earth,
they connect with people.
And so I come in mainly to shine a spotlight on them.
So that's point number one.
And the second thing that happened in this Midterm,
and we've seen it now for three elections,
so I'm starting to feel pretty hopeful that this is a habit,
young people are voting.
And you've got higher, it has been many times
remarked how I got thumped during Midterms
during my presidency.
And part of it was that voting rates were really low.
People in some sense, I think a lot of Democrats felt,
all right, Obama's there, we'll be OK.
And if it turns out that McConnell and Boehner
and others suddenly have power, then
that greatly restricts what a president can do.
And I think that lesson was learned.
Trump comes in and suddenly 2018, 2020, and now this one,
you've seen young people come in
and they're typically voting at a rate of 70 to 30, 60 to 40
Democrat to Republican.
TREVOR NOAH: Right.
And that makes a huge difference.
And so their--
TREVOR NOAH: But many of them are--
--enthusiasm I think is what really drove this election.
I agree with that in terms of the people who actually voted.
But young people don't seem to be turning out as much.
So the ones who did vote, voted overwhelmingly Democrat.
Yes.
But then the number of young voters
seems to be dwindling from election to election.
And many young voters are saying
they feel disillusioned.
They feel like America hasn't made a way for them.
They don't see a future for themselves.
Well, look, what is always true is young people are
going to vote at slightly lower rates than old people,
like me.
Because they've got better things to do.
Michelle and I are sitting at home, eating dinner.
We've kind of run out of things to say.
Well, let's go vote.
Young people, Malia and Sasha, they're out,
they got all kinds of stuff.
So that's always going to be the case
that young people voting rates are a little bit lower.
They are higher now than they were in the Midterms
when I was president.
And in such a polarized environment,
1%, 2%, 3%, if they're turning out at 21% instead of 18%--
TREVOR NOAH: It makes a difference.
--that can make an enormous difference.
Right.
When you look at that tiny difference,
you still see the places where, I mean,
people got into power despite the fact
that they deny elections.
I think Republicans got 170 election deniers
into Congress, people who don't believe in the way America
is running its elections, people who don't believe Joe
Biden should be president or they'll
be vague about their answers. BARACK OBAMA: Yeah.
What do you what do you think it says
about American democracy that so many people are getting
elected to these positions when they seem to dismiss
the election itself?
Well, the interesting thing is, you notice,
election deniers don't deny their own election.
Funny how that works.
How many of them actually believe
some of the nonsense that circulates versus those who
think it's convenient or it's a way to own the libs
or it's a way to send a message or align themselves
with Trump?
That's hard to say.
But what is important is, that because of some really
concerted efforts in a lot of important states,
some of the most egregious, prominent, and potentially
dangerous election deniers--
TREVOR NOAH: Right.
--they got thumped.
They got beat.
And particularly in these Secretary of States races,
and in some cases, Governor's races,
where in the next presidential election,
you could have somebody who could really do some damage.
There, I think we held the line.
Now what it does say more broadly,
is the fact that not just here in the United States,
but around the world, the fundamental precepts
of democracy are being challenged.
TREVOR NOAH: Right.
We're not having arguments about policy,
but we're having arguments about the rules of the game,
which previously we all agreed to, right?
There was a notion that all right,
we run elections, whoever gets the most votes actually wins.
The loser concedes, goes back and tries
to do better next time.
And what we've seen now for a whole host of reasons
is a creeping sense that if the outcome is not what we want,
then we can do whatever we want and say
whatever we want in order for us to win.
And that is profoundly dangerous.
And as I said, it's not unique to the United States,
but when it happens in the United States,
it sends a signal all around the world
that weakens democracy.
And that's why I think us getting our house
in order is so important.
When you look at the discourse in the country,
as well, and around the world, but again, I
think you're correct in that America is
a leader in what's happening right now,
the discourse has become so toxic.
Yeah.
TREVOR NOAH: You were in every single state.
You were meeting with people all the way from Iowa
through to California, wherever you were
meeting people on the ground.
They were listening to you.
There was an openness, even though people
had different political affiliations.
It seems like that has eroded over time.
And I wonder what you make of that.
Where do you think it's coming from?
Do you think it's social media?
Do you think it's the tenor of politicians in the capital?
Two things.
The biggest change that's taking place.
When I ran for let's say US Senate in Illinois,
you go down state, that's the South.
I mean, it's rural, it's conservative.
There aren't a lot of folks who look like you or me.
And certainly, there are more Trevors than there
are Baracks in these areas.
[laughs]
And so-- and I'm driving around, I've got a map.
For young people here, it's this paper thing.
You can't figure out how to fold it back,
but it's how you find your way on roads.
But I go into a town and it'd be 70% Republican, a lot
of evangelicals, et cetera.
But I could go to a diner or a VFW Hall or a county fair.
I could go to the local newspaper,
and the owner there is conservative,
and he's got a bow tie and buzz, cut
and he's kind of skeptical about my ideas.
But there wasn't the filter that
had been created by Fox News or the media infrastructure,
the sort of right wing conspiracy theory folks.
And so they came at me with an open mind.
And I could listen to them, and they could listen to me.
And at the end of the day, they might say, well,
he's a little liberal for our taste,
but we have something in common.
He talked about his mom getting sick.
I remember my mom getting sick.
You know, it seems like he loves his kids.
I love my kids.
There was some sense of connection.
And I think the filter now has become so thick.
It started I think with Fox News
and some of the other traditional media.
And now with social media, that's gotten turbocharged.
If you go into those same communities now,
they have so many preconceptions about what
somebody like me believes, cares about,
et cetera, that it's very hard to penetrate.
So I think the answer is both thinking about information
flow and media, and how can we break through that information
bubble that people are in.
That requires, by the way, progressives to get
out of their media bubble.
Because we've got some preconceptions that I
think create barriers as well.
And then working a lot more locally.
Because you notice that when you're
on the ground doing stuff, it's harder to stereotype people.
And the nationalization of our politics I think
has been damaging.
The more we can focus on grassroots efforts,
real world rather than just virtual meetings,
conversations, that's what over time I think
can help strengthen democracy.
And that's part of what our emphasis has been
at the foundation is, with young leaders who
are working on the ground--
TREVOR NOAH: Right.
--coming up with new ideas to create those connections.
Well, I definitely want to speak to you about that.
I want to speak to you about democracy worldwide.
I want to speak to you about disinformation
and what we can do to immunize ourselves from it.
But we've got to take a quick break.
We'll be right back after this with more
from President Barack Obama. - Very good.
Welcome back to The Daily Show.
We are still here with President Barack Obama,
chatting democracy, disinformation, and who
is better looking between us. I won.
Oh.
[laughter]
TREVOR NOAH: Let's start--
[laughs]
Listen.
The real question is, how will he look when he's 60?
[laughter]
61.
You know, I mean, everybody's attractive when
they're in their 20s and 30s.
I mean, come on. - [laughs]
You know?
TREVOR NOAH: I'm almost 40, sir.
That's no feat. Almost?
TREVOR NOAH: Yeah, almost. - That doesn't count.
- Almost. - Still doesn't count.
Let's talk--
Live a little bit.
[laughs] Let's talk about--
I plan to.
Let's talk about your foundation.
Let's talk about what you're doing.
We see you out there.
We see you talking about democracy.
The world is in a really interesting place in that,
a few years ago, I think the world was at,
like, 49%, 50% of the world was-- you could say
the countries were democratic.
They had elections.
People won those elections.
There was an exchange of power, et cetera.
And now I think 70% of the world is living in a state
where they're either ruled-- where
it's a complete autocracy or it isn't a democracy.
Right.
Two things again.
One, why do you think the world has gotten there?
If democracy and freedom are things that everybody wishes
to have, why does it seem like the world
is moving away from that?
And then, secondly, what can we do, or why should we then try
to get back to this democracy?
If you look at the trend lines,
there are a bunch of factors, I think.
Globalization, the global economy disrupted a lot
of traditional societies.
TREVOR NOAH: What do you mean by disrupted?
Well, the global supply chain eliminates industries,
eliminates jobs--
TREVOR NOAH: Got it.
--increases the wealth gap not only between countries
but within countries, right?
So-- and then modernity challenges people's
traditional notions of religion and family and gender roles.
And you've got these culture clashes, right?
You're in some village in Yemen,
and suddenly your kid has a phone
and is looking at the Kardashians and--
TREVOR NOAH: Right.
And so you get this vertigo.
And what happened-- what you've seen happen, I think,
in a whole bunch of places is essentially
a pushback, a backlash to change that is happening
too fast for their comfort.
And when people are pushing back against change,
then they're vulnerable to politicians who say,
you know what?
I can make things just like it was back then, when you
were feeling more important.
You had higher status.
You didn't have people who don't look like you suggesting
somehow that you're doing something wrong,
that somehow your traditions are flawed.
And that appeal usually also involves
saying the problems you're feeling
are somebody else's fault. It's those folks there.
It's immigrants.
It's gays.
It's Hindus.
It's Muslims.
It's-- so forth and so on.
And that then gets turbocharged with the information issues
that we talked about.
And, look, democracy requires, by definition,
getting along with people who don't agree with you.
And the other thing that happens
is these countries are becoming less homogeneous, right?
And so you just had a right-wing party in Sweden,
which we always used to-- Swedes, right?
They're fun.
They're so chill--
[laughs] Yes.
--and democratic, right?
But if you've got a whole bunch of immigrants coming in,
suddenly people start getting nervous.
And so part of what I think we have to do
is to stand fast on the principles of equality
and self governance and representation,
and everybody gets a seat at the table.
But I think we have to also find a language and a story,
a way of telling the story about how we can get together
that does not threaten people who
are uncomfortable with change as much.
And that's going to be different
for different countries.
But I'll give you an example.
There's a young leader who we worked with from Slovenia--
she's part of our network--
who was an advocate for doing something
about domestic violence.
The laws of that country didn't have domestic violence.
It was a real problem.
Ran a referendum-- it got crushed.
And we worked with her and suggested,
well, maybe you want to talk to the people
who didn't vote for it.
So she goes out to these rural villages with these older,
traditional, rural, very religious, very conservative
women, and just interviewed them and listened to them
and talked to them.
And it's not that they agreed with domestic abuse.
It's that they thought their way of life
was being challenged.
TREVOR NOAH: Right.
She adapted their language, ran
the referendum again a few years later,
and it passed, right?
Because she adopted the language that made them feel
as if, OK, this is not so much of a earthquake,
a huge change in how we live.
But it's rather affirming our best values.
And I think us finding ways to do that in a consistent way
will help.
But it's hard.
Yeah, look, for most of human history,
democracy is a relatively recent vintage.
TREVOR NOAH: It's a blip.
It's a blip, yeah.
Tribe, nation state, race, sect--
that's typically been how we organize things.
And it's always easy to say us versus them.
That's the easy politics.
Right.
What democracy demands is always
a little bit more difficult.
It also feels like when you observe it,
there are two elements that I often see is on the one hand
storytelling, as you said.
It's often easier to tell a story of blame.
Yes.
Why are things going wrong?
It's because of that person. It's simple.
There's the person. We've solved it.
Why are things going wrong?
Well, there's a confluence of factors, and you have this,
and you have the economy.
You got to understand the supply chain.
That's not an answer for many people.
Yes.
And when you sell freedom, they go, I can't eat freedom.
I can't buy a house with freedom.
I can't-- you know?
And then the second part is what you're talking about,
the us versus the them, the who is and who isn't.
Sometimes I think for many people it feels like--
it feels like the populists come in and just do, you know?
Whether it is in Brazil, you know, whether it's Bolsonaro,
whether it's in America with Trump,
they go, they're just going to do.
And whether they do or don't actually do it,
it feels like they're going to do.
But then some people go, oh, but when
we get the freedom people, they want to talk,
and they want to discuss.
And it seems incremental, and it seems
like things won't change.
Yeah.
Is there a way to combat that?
Because it is a feeling a lot of the time.
Well, yeah, look, if you want to be
a progressive, pluralist, tolerant democrat--
and I don't mean small d democrat.
I don't mean Democratic Party.
You can't be a wuss.
TREVOR NOAH: [laughs]
I mean, you've got to have a story with some swag.
You've got to be able to sell the future.
[cheering]
And deliver.
And also call out the fact that what
those folks say they're going to do, they almost never
do, right?
Because the truth of the matter is that when you look at--
we have experiments-- those countries
that have the ability to harness everyone.
And everybody participates, and there's consent,
and people feel like, all right,
this is working for us, versus places that are failed states.
The track record of democracy is pretty good.
But we have to be forceful in making our argument.
And what is true is that we can't just talk.
We got to walk the walk, which is why we're
having a forum in New York.
One of the topics that we're talking about
is inclusive capitalism.
People are-- when you think about,
let's say, here in the United States,
there's greater appeal of right-wing populism in a lot
of communities, rural communities,
that they're not wrong that the economy, the global economy,
has shifted away from them to urban centers,
even in their own states.
And so the opportunities in Austin, Texas
are different than in a rural community in East Texas.
And people notice that.
So we have to spend some time thinking about,
how are we delivering on behalf of people whose lives--
who used to work in a factory, who used to farm for a living,
and have dignity and worth and stability and security
in those lives, and now, suddenly, they don't feel
as if they've got the lottery ticket
in this existing economy?
That does have to be addressed.
And in places like Africa, you know, right now you have,
let's say, China coming in, heavy presence
in a lot of these countries, providing
a lot of foreign aid-- a lot of strings attached,
a lot of Chinese workers coming in to build big buildings.
Right, them owning the points, et cetera.
Et cetera.
But if we're not there, if we're not
helping build that road, if we're not there
to build that port, then naturally people
are going to start thinking, well, maybe
that's a recipe for bettering my life as
opposed to some flowery language,
but it has nothing behind it.
TREVOR NOAH: Right, right.
I wonder, though, do you think inclusive capitalism
is somewhat of a paradox?
A few think it's possible.
It feels-- you think it's-- because it feels like, I mean,
capitalism is designed to extract as much
wealth as possible from every single
interaction that it can.
Yeah, but, look, I mentioned Sweden
and some of the problems they're having because.
Immigration on the other hand, you look
at Scandinavian countries.
They're capitalist countries, but--
But some people would argue--
--and those work very well.
But some people would argue that their foundation is more
socialist, and then they go with--
it's almost like they go, we're socialist first,
and then capitalism is our undercurrent.
TREVOR NOAH: Not really.
You don't agree with that?
Well, if you go there, essentially,
people are taxed more, and they have more common goods.
Right.
But you're still going around at a job, and you get paid,
and you can't-- it's not like you're going into the store,
just grabbing whatever you want [laughs] and walking out.
- But the question-- - All right, see you!
[laughs]
See you, Sven, you know?
No, but the reason--
No, you got to pay for it, right?
Right.
Then the guy at the cash register's checking,
did I make a profit here today? Right.
Right, but the reason I'm asking that is because--
and maybe it's the words that fail us sometimes.
I often-- I'll talk to my friends about this.
I go, it's interesting that we sort of stopped.
We went, oh, this is socialism.
There's this. There's the communism.
There's capital-- and then we just stopped.
We're like, this is it.
There's capitalism, and that's that.
I sometimes wonder, is there not something better?
Is there not something we could be moving towards?
Well, I think there is. The--
Maybe I should be asking, what is inclusive capitalism?
The reason I just used, let's say, a Denmark as an example
is not because it's going to work perfectly in India,
the United States, et cetera.
The point, though, is they've got some blend, some mix.
TREVOR NOAH: Right.
Right?
There is an advantage in terms of efficiency
and also freedom to a market system.
TREVOR NOAH: OK.
You have a control system.
You have some guy in an office is deciding how many potatoes
we're going to grow this year.
That usually doesn't work.
TREVOR NOAH: Right.
The flip side of it is that what we've also learned
is that if some guy in a boardroom is deciding,
I'm going to ravage the environment
to do whatever I want, that doesn't work either.
TREVOR NOAH: Right.
So we're going to have a blend of some sort.
We want some collective decision
making about the social good.
And we want something that's efficient and dynamic
and allows us to exercise our innovation and freedom.
And we don't need to worry so much about the labels as we do
about being practical and thinking about
what's working and what isn't.
And this is going back to the information issues.
This is part of why, to me, one of the biggest challenges
to democracy is not just the mechanics of elections
or the independent judiciary.
Those things are all important.
But this is why this information and media
issue is so important.
Because what we've seen here in the United States
and elsewhere is a abandonment of a commitment
to facts and reason and logic and stuff that is useful.
[laughter] And--
Some would say necessary.
Necessary.
And if we can't have a debate based on facts,
then we can't get to better solutions, right?
We start talking in slogans and nonsense.
And there's no reality check.
We just make stuff up.
I didn't lose an election.
You know, there's something broken over there.
And it doesn't-- and it's impervious to facts.
So part of what I think--
why I've been spending a lot of time thinking
about this disinformation issue is how do we--
in how we teach our kids in either industry standards
and/or regulation of these social media platforms--
how do we get back to the point where you can have opinions--
we all do-- but facts matter, and proof matters?
And our capacity to debate and say, you know what?
If we do things this way, it might work better.
And then you may disagree, but at least we
agree to a set of rules whereby we can
arrive at a better solution.
TREVOR NOAH: Do you think it's possible to get to that place
when almost half-- let's just talk about the United States--
where almost half the country says,
well, what are those rules?
And why are you even deciding them?
And why are we having this conversation?
You are not even a fact.
How do you-- I honestly mean, how
do you get to that place with people
where you can agree a little?
The interesting thing is even in those places that are just
inundated with what I consider to be nonsense and lies
and distortions, when people operate in their own lives,
they're still operating on facts, right?
On their jobs, when they're coaching their kid's
little league or their soccer game or football game,
they don't let the ref just kind of say, ah,
you know what?
This time, we're just going to get
5 points for the touchdown.
It's like, wait, wait, wait.
Folks on the sidelines say, nope,
it's 6 points for the touchdown,
and then you get the extra point.
And so we abide by all kinds of facts in our own lives.
It's just this national story that is being told where
we allow lies to be told.
And we accept them mainly because it turns out
that when we tell a story about the other side,
it makes us feel better.
It's like, ah, you know, Trevor, he's a jackass.
You should see--
I don't know it has to be me who's the example.
Well, you happen to be sitting there.
I mean-- [laughs]
And so we enjoy the performative aspects
of making stuff up.
And part of that is because we don't think
there are consequences to it.
Now what we learned from the election of my successor,
from the pandemic, from the insurrection, is,
actually, the stories we tell do matter.
And having some baseline of sticking to the truth when
you're telling stories about our country, about policy,
but also about the other side, that matters.
And I like to think that part of what
happened in this election is people said,
OK, you know what?
Some of this stuff's getting a little too crazy.
It turns out that there is a majority of country that
does prefer normal, not crazy.
And that's a basis for hope.
[cheering]
I could talk to you for hours about this.
I know you don't have the time.
It has been wonderful having you here though.
It's also been wonderful seeing what you're getting up to.
Because after I had the pleasure of interviewing you
at the White House just before you left,
and then afterwards I saw you kite surfing.
And I loved it.
I loved it, by the way.
Great technique.
But I often wonder, like, what is Mr.
President going to do next?
Where does he go?
And you started producing shows about issues around the world.
And now you've got this forum.
I wondered if maybe you have any tips for me as-- you know?
Well--
Because, I mean, you and I, like,
we're basically the same. - We're the same.
We're basically the same.
You know, it's--
You know, I think--
[cheering]
I think you're going to have to really focus
on relearning things like driving, pressing
your own elevator buttons.
I think you have different ideas what was my job is
and what your job is.
When was the last time you were at the dry cleaners?
I was actually on 53rd Street.
Has it been-- OK.
That's where I go. I take it myself.
Yeah.
Yeah, we are very-- you--
like, you're very like, [grunts] you know?
Like I said, you're Mr. President forever.
You have Secret Service forever.
That's correct, right?
I do, and it--
I barely get to keep my hoodies after this.
I--
[laughter]
I still am in a bubble.
I thought I could escape it.
Quick story since we're in New York,
I used to say, oh, you know what?
Once I get out of here, I'm going to just be able to,
like, walk through Central Park, and--
TREVOR NOAH: Oh, wow.
--it's going to-- and I'll just put,
like, on a baseball cap, and it's going to be fine.
And Michelle's all like, yeah, OK.
[laughs]
Good luck with that.
And the first time I tried it, I got, like, half a block.
[laughter]
And then, suddenly, there was this swarm,
and there's phones and traffic stopping.
And it didn't work.
[laughter]
So, you know, I guess what I would say,
though, is that you will be missed here.
But--
[cheering]
But we were talking backstage.
You're already following one piece of advice
that I would have is leave when your poll numbers are high.
[laughter]
That's how they'll remember you.
So--
I'm actually-- yeah, I'm excited.
I'm going to go on the road.
Yes.
I mean, I've said this to you before.
Yeah.
You know, whether it's the White House Correspondents
Dinner, in Georgia when you're doing the speech,
you're a very funny guy.
So you want me to open for you.
[cheering]
I've got some shows in Chicago.
You know what? Not even open.
I wouldn't dare.
We could co-- you know?
You can't open for me.
You're still Mr. President.
- Banter. - We just do like a--
Just banter. Do a little banter.
Yeah, the coheadlining tour, you know what I mean?
We'll call it Half and Half.
You know what I mean?
[cheering]
[laughs]
- I like that. - We could do it.
- We can do it. - We'll talk.
We'll get our people in contact.
President Barack Obama, everybody.
We're going to take a quick break.
But we'll be right back after this.
[cheering]
Thank you so much.

歐巴馬電視訪談（Barack Obama - Protecting Democracy and the Commitment to Facts | The Daily Show）