You've been listening

to some of the reporting

just just airing just before you

and you obviously seeing everything

that's going on around you.

Tell me first,

what has been going through your head

and your heart since October 7th?

Well, since

October 7th,

everything has changed in some ways

and in other ways.

Everything is

my my worst fears are coming true.

I as you mentioned,

I fought in Gaza in 2014.

That war was also preceded by a horrific

terrorist attack,

just like we saw on October 7th.

Three Israeli teenagers

were kidnaped and murdered,

which led to a oh, don't worry

sorry story

which led which led to a horrific

which led to the firing of rockets.

A massive crackdown on Hamas

in the West Bank

and the firing of rockets and

then a ground invasion.

The the images that

everyone is seeing that I'm seeing

remind me very vividly of that fighting.

And frankly it's it's my worst fears

because many people colleagues

in the Israeli peace camp in the Israeli

anti-occupation camp

have been warning

for so many years

saying that

there is no military solution.

We can't just manage the conflict

and maintain a very, very brutal

military

regime of control over Palestinians.

That actually plays

into the hands of Hamas

and plays

into the hands

of these murderous terrorist groups.

And so all I've been doing since then

is trying to share my message, try

to share my experience,

and try to avoid making the same mistakes

that we made in 2014

when Hamas only got stronger

after we bombed them and killed thousands

and we struck them a decisive blow

where that's at least

what I thought at the time.

But I only saw afterwards

that my own government

strengthened Hamas.

You know,

it's pretty intense to hear you say that.

Look,

we know that

the majority of your country

right now is in favor of this war.

They might not be in favor

of the current government,

but they definitely believe

that somehow, somewhere

Hamas has to be defeated.

You're saying

it can't be done militarily.

Tell us.

I guess the first question

really is to you.

Are you out of step

with the majority of your country people

right now?

And are you able still to talk about,

you know, what you saw,

what you feel,

what you've learned, how you've changed,

Yeah.

Well, I'll add,

you know, I'm not a I'm not a pacifist.

I believe that Israel

has the responsibility to defend itself.

Against Hamas.

And, of course,

that includes military actions.

But I think that right now

in Israeli society,

there's a debate going on

as to

whether this war that we're fighting

should be against Hamas

or it should it be against

the Palestinian people.

And you have

members of this current government

who have said

since the horrific atrocities

that we saw in October,

on October 7th against Israeli civilians

and the kidnaping of Israeli

civilians who are still being held

they have made it clear

that they aren't differentiating

between civilians and and Hamas.

Even last night,

a senior member of the coalition

sorry, on Saturday night,

senior member of the coalition

of a member of the cabinet,

Bezalel Smotrich,

the finance minister

and the minister overseeing

the West Bank

and the Ministry of Defense said

that he doesn't

really see

a big difference

between the Palestinian Authority

and Hamas.

The Arabs are the same Arabs.

So there are many Israelis

who disagree with that.

And there are many Israelis

who are questioning the assumptions

and questioning

the lies that they've been told

for so many years.

And maybe it is a majority

who has believed the lies that

our government has told us.

But, you know, I

think that this is an opportunity for a

for partners

of mine in the Israeli peace camp.

I saw

many of my.

Yes,

I can hear you

Let me ask you another question, Ben.

Let me ask you another question.

Okay, Ben.

See, your line is dropped.

We're going to redial you

and we're going to bring you back.

We're going to bring you back

So standby and we'll bring you back.

I want to ask you again about the op ed,

the article

you wrote

for The New York Times

describing what it was like

you know,

in the deployment in 2014 and Gaza.

You wrote,

you know,

that some of your soldiers

were feeling doubts at that time.

And then you wrote your own thoughts

on a piece of paper and you wrote this.

I wrote that

some members of my team had been tallying

the number of soldiers killed

and discussing

whether this operation

was worth the losses.

I think it could be worth it.

I wrote

as long as we decisively eliminate

the threat.

That's the lie they told us

and the lie that's being repeated today

that we can decisively eliminate

the threat of Hamas

through a military operation and see.

How did you come to the conclusion that

you couldn't

Well, you know, one of the voices

that I've listened to over the years

and I've been convinced

by is not just not just the voices

of human rights activists,

but also the voice of the former

head of the Shin Bet, Amy Ayalon,

who is the top counterterrorism expert

and for four

and a half years in the in the country.

And he said this openly.

He said,

the only way to decisively defeat

the terrorism that Hamas represents

is through creating an alternative

and creating hope.

And that means working

towards a political solution.

And our current government has been

fundamentally committed

to opposing a political solution

and to preventing the creation

of a Palestinian state

and preventing Palestinian independence.

So, therefore,

I that's why

I realize that

military alone will not defeat Hamas.

And that's why

I think that our government

needs to be changed immediately.

So let me ask you then as well,

because you talk a lot in your favor

of what you saw in Gaza in 2014.

Tell me,

because earlier

you said you don't believe

that the soldiers distinguish

carefully enough

between civilians and Hamas fighters.

What did you

yourself experienced to make you say that

Well, you know,

in the

area that we went,

we were told that

all the civilians had fled.

And that was true for the most part,

but it wasn't entirely true.

We did find civilians.

There was an entire family

in the second neighborhood

that my unit took over

was an entire family who stayed behind

And the soldiers,

you know, luckily

when they entered the house, they didn't

kill them through live fire.

They gave them food and water.

They guarded them for many days.

But when we pulled out,

the Air Force

flew overhead

and bombed the entire neighborhood.

And eight

members of that family were killed.

I learned this later.

So I've seen this with my own eyes

and I'm not.

And I'm listening today.

I'm listening to my own leaders,

including who I'm mentioned,

Bezalel Smotrich,

who said he doesn't really

differentiate between

the Palestinian Authority,

which recognizes

Israel wants to negotiate

with Israel and Hamas,

which is the terrorist organization

that carried out these atrocities.

The Arabs are the Arabs.

That's what he said on Saturday

night on Israeli television.

So it's hard for me to believe.

I don't believe that

I've seen it with my own eyes.

I don't believe that Israel

is doing everything in its power

to prevent civilian casualties

based on the statements

of members of the Likud

and other members of the coalition.

And I think that that's

a result of the fact that this government

doesn't view

the Palestinian people

as the future partners

for making peace with.

And they are just convinced that

overwhelming military power

is going to bring us safety and security

and this is a catastrophic mistake.

It's the same catastrophic mistake

that led us to the horrific

events of

October 7th And

we absolutely need to change that.

We need our partners abroad.

We need the US government also.

I'm an Israeli, but I'm also an American.

And I expect that the American government

also not just pay lip service to the idea

of pursuing a political solution.