字幕列表 影片播放 列印英文字幕 Welcome to the program. You've been listening to some of the reporting just just airing just before you and you obviously seeing everything that's going on around you. Tell me first, what has been going through your head and your heart since October 7th? Well, since October 7th, everything has changed in some ways and in other ways. Everything is my my worst fears are coming true. I as you mentioned, I fought in Gaza in 2014. That war was also preceded by a horrific terrorist attack, just like we saw on October 7th. Three Israeli teenagers were kidnaped and murdered, which led to a oh, don't worry sorry story which led which led to a horrific which led to the firing of rockets. A massive crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank and the firing of rockets and then a ground invasion. The the images that everyone is seeing that I'm seeing remind me very vividly of that fighting. And frankly it's it's my worst fears because many people colleagues in the Israeli peace camp in the Israeli anti-occupation camp have been warning for so many years saying that there is no military solution. We can't just manage the conflict and maintain a very, very brutal military regime of control over Palestinians. That actually plays into the hands of Hamas and plays into the hands of these murderous terrorist groups. And so all I've been doing since then is trying to share my message, try to share my experience, and try to avoid making the same mistakes that we made in 2014 when Hamas only got stronger after we bombed them and killed thousands and we struck them a decisive blow where that's at least what I thought at the time. But I only saw afterwards that my own government strengthened Hamas. You know, it's pretty intense to hear you say that. Look, we know that the majority of your country right now is in favor of this war. They might not be in favor of the current government, but they definitely believe that somehow, somewhere Hamas has to be defeated. You're saying it can't be done militarily. Tell us. I guess the first question really is to you. Are you out of step with the majority of your country people right now? And are you able still to talk about, you know, what you saw, what you feel, what you've learned, how you've changed, Yeah. Well, I'll add, you know, I'm not a I'm not a pacifist. I believe that Israel has the responsibility to defend itself. Against Hamas. And, of course, that includes military actions. But I think that right now in Israeli society, there's a debate going on as to whether this war that we're fighting should be against Hamas or it should it be against the Palestinian people. And you have members of this current government who have said since the horrific atrocities that we saw in October, on October 7th against Israeli civilians and the kidnaping of Israeli civilians who are still being held they have made it clear that they aren't differentiating between civilians and and Hamas. Even last night, a senior member of the coalition sorry, on Saturday night, senior member of the coalition of a member of the cabinet, Bezalel Smotrich, the finance minister and the minister overseeing the West Bank and the Ministry of Defense said that he doesn't really see a big difference between the Palestinian Authority and Hamas. The Arabs are the same Arabs. So there are many Israelis who disagree with that. And there are many Israelis who are questioning the assumptions and questioning the lies that they've been told for so many years. And maybe it is a majority who has believed the lies that our government has told us. But, you know, I think that this is an opportunity for a for partners of mine in the Israeli peace camp. I saw many of my. Yes, I can hear you Let me ask you another question, Ben. Let me ask you another question. Okay, Ben. See, your line is dropped. We're going to redial you and we're going to bring you back. We're going to bring you back So standby and we'll bring you back. I want to ask you again about the op ed, the article you wrote for The New York Times describing what it was like you know, in the deployment in 2014 and Gaza. You wrote, you know, that some of your soldiers were feeling doubts at that time. And then you wrote your own thoughts on a piece of paper and you wrote this. I wrote that some members of my team had been tallying the number of soldiers killed and discussing whether this operation was worth the losses. I think it could be worth it. I wrote as long as we decisively eliminate the threat.