(Do) You remember that Pixar film "WALL-E"?

還記得皮克斯的電影《瓦力》嗎？

I think "WALL-E" is prophetic in many ways, of, like, the path we could go down,

我覺得《瓦力》在很多面向都有預言我們接下來走向的效果，

where people are just sitting, looking at a screen, and we've lost all sense of reality.

人們只會呆坐著、看著螢幕，然後失去所有的現實感。

You talked about how... how vicious stress is as a cause, I guess, for inflammation.

你聊到劇烈壓力是發炎的起因之一。

You know, people tend to think of stress as being a really, really bad thing.

人們傾向認為壓力是非常糟糕的東西。

I... I hear often that some kind of stress is... is a good stress.

我經常聽到的是，某種程度上的壓力是好的壓力。

What is, in particular, the type of stress you're talking about that is leading to this... this shame-flammation?

你所特別提到導致這種體內發炎的壓力是什麼壓力？

I... I'm assuming it's chronic stress.

我假設是慢性壓力。

Yeah, human species⏤the human species wouldn't be here without some grit and resilience.

沒錯，如果沒有一些毅力和韌性，人類今日就不會存在。

And I think, in some ways, you could argue that we're really lacking our resilience and grit.

我認為在某些方面，你可以辯稱我們真的缺乏韌性和勇氣。

And that's something that I'm teaching my patients and in the book,

而那是我在書中教導我病人的東西，

for people to, sort of, gain a resilience to handle stress; there's nothing wrong, inherently, with stress.

讓人們獲得應付壓力的韌性——本質上來說，壓力是沒有問題的。

And even if you look at the research around hormetic effects or hormesis,

即便是觀察與毒物興奮效應或激效反應有關的研究，

like, people are doing the cold punches you see all around the wellness space or sauna therapy or high-intensity interval training, or even things like fasting.

人們會在健身中心揮冷拳、進行三溫暖治療、高強度間歇訓練或類似斷食等事情。

These are all hormetic effects that humans would've spent times in, like, difficult times, periodic times of stress.

這些都是人們在艱困時期、有壓力時期會耗時其上的毒物興奮效應。

That actually makes ourselves more resilient and... and our souls more resilient in... in many ways.

那就許多面向而言，實際上會讓我們還有我們的靈魂更有韌性。

But it's the chronic stress where it's out of alignment with that ancestral health perspective.

但是長期慢性壓力與祖先的健康觀點不一致。

It's... it's⏤there's a... that evolutionary mis... mismatch that I mentioned earlier.

這裡有一個我前面提到的演化錯位。

That is something that we haven't aligned with.

那是我們還沒對齊的東西。

We have these... these different stress adaptation responses in the body, and the body is releasing things like cortisol and adrenaline.

我們體內有不同的壓力適應反應，而身體正在釋放皮質醇和腎上腺素等物質。

And we never allow this sympathetic fight-or-flight stress aspect of our autonomic nervous system to calm down.

而我們從來沒有讓自律神經系統中的戰或逃壓力面向平靜下來。

So, we're always in this fight-or-flight stressed state to varying degrees that people never are able to regulate themselves

所以說，我們總是處在不同程度的戰或逃壓力狀態，人們從來沒能夠自我調節，

and never able to support that parasympathetic, that resting, digesting, that hormone-balanced state of their... their nervous system.

也從來沒有能夠支持神經系統中的副交感神經，亦即休息、消化和激素平衡的狀態。

So, yeah, it could look different for different people.

所以，它對不同的人來說，看起來可能不同。

But the things that I hear the most with... from people, it's their jobs.

但我最常聽到人們說的就是工作。

It's... it's like a lack of, I would say, healthy boundaries with their jobs,

我會說那像是缺乏與工作之間健康的界線，

and their family can be a source of stressor, finances can be a sort of stress, and their health.

他們的家庭也可能是壓力來源、財務狀況也可以種壓力，還有健康狀態。

I think when you don't feel well, that's stressful as well.

我覺得當你身體不適時，那也是種壓力。

Those are the most common things that I hear from people.

那些都是我最常從人們口中聽到的事情。

This fight-or-flight response, this, sort of, prolonged state of feeling like you're kind of in fight-or-flight,

這種戰或逃反應、這種覺得自己處在戰或逃模式的長期感受，

which is, sort of, characterized by being short of breath or feeling a bit on edge or nervous.

這些都是由呼吸短促、感到有點不安或緊張感表現。

What is the consequence of being in that state for too long?

在這種狀態下時間過長的後果是什麼？

'Cause a lot of people can probably relate to that.

因為可能有很多人都能感同身受。

Well, it's⏤that is, in part, what's driving these... these vast epidemic of health problems in our world today.

嗯，那在某些面向是推動世界現今健康問題廣為流行的原因。

When you're talking about 50 million Americans having autoimmune condition(s),

當我們論及約 5 千萬名美國人罹患了自體免疫疾病時，

hundreds of millions worldwide are having autoimmune condition(s), Type two diabetes.

全球數億人罹患自體免疫疾病、二型糖尿病。

I mean, it's the vast majority of people in the West are somewhere on this insulin-resistance spectrum,

我是說，西方絕大多數人都在這個胰島素抵抗範圍中的某個落點，

meaning they have things like PCOS or weight-loss resistance or insatiable cravings or prediabetes or type two diabetes.

意味著他們有罹患了多囊性卵巢症候群、減重抵抗、無法滿足的食慾、糖尿病前期症狀或二型糖尿病。

All of these health problems that we are plagued with as a world are, in part, fed by chronic stress.

所有這些困擾全世界的健康問題，在一定程度上都是由慢性壓力造成的。

It's just a matter of how much your body can handle.

問題只在於你的身體能承受多少。

And that's sort of the conversation in the book about bio-individuality, right?

這就是書中關於生物個體性的對話，對嗎？

Some people have the buck analogies, sort of, that bucket analogy⏤some people have massive buckets.

有些人會有所謂的水桶理論，有些人的水桶很大個。

And they can handle a lot of things in their life before it's gonna hit that tipping point.

他們在到達臨界點前，可以應付人生中的很多事情。

What is the tipping point?

那個臨界點是什麼？

The tipping point is health problems where something's got to give, and they realize they're diagnosed with a health problem,

臨界點是必須有所退讓的健康問題，他們意識到自己被診斷有健康問題，

and it's stressors, the foods we eat, trauma⏤all of these things accumulate.

還有壓力來源、我們吃的食物、創傷，這些事情都會堆積。

You can't change your bucket size, but you can change what you put in it.

你不能改變你桶子的大小，但你可以改變放在裡面的東西。

You can't change your genetic tolerance for stressors, but you can change what you put in it.

你不能改變你對壓力源的遺傳耐受性，但你可以改變你放什麼東西在裡面。

So, it's really a message of agency, right?

所以，這其實是一個代理訊息，對嗎？

It's a message of "What can I do?"

這是一個「我可以做什麼」的訊息。

We all have different abilities or thresholds to handle things in our life, but we all have the ability to clear these things out and to heal, ultimately.

我們都有應付生活中一切的不同能力或門檻，但我們都有能力把這些東西清除掉，並開始療癒。

You know, have... hearing all of this, it makes me feel so deeply that the way we've chosen to live our lives is really un-human.

聽到這一切後，讓我深深感受到，我們選擇的生活方式實在是太不人性化了。

And when I think about what we can do to change that from, like, a real systemic level, it seems like it might just be too big of a job.

當我考量我們能做些什麼來真正系統性地改變這種情況，工程可能似乎太過浩大。

Because of the direction of travel of everything⏤ technology, the way we're... we're organizing our lives in terms of, like, cities and work and profession⏤professionalism and social media, etc., etc.

因為包含科技、我們在居住地與工作與職業等人生規劃、專業、社交媒體等一切的行進方向。

Are... are you optimistic that there's things we can do to change it?

你是否樂觀地認為我們可以做一些事情來改變它？

And what are those, like, real systemic things we have to do within our own lives as individuals, but also as a society?

以及不只是個人，而是以社會整體，我們在自己的生活中必須要做哪些系統性的事情？

Yeah, I mean, it's something I think often about, and I think that there's a growing amount⏤

嗯，我是說，那是我時常思考的事情，我覺得越來越多——

pockets of people, if you will, that are... that know, intuitively, they have to do something different to see something different.

有越來越大群的人直覺上知道自己必須做不同的事才能看到不同的東西。

And being in functional medicine for the past 13-plus years at this point,

而過去 13 年多的時間都任職於功能醫學後，

I have to say, what was once considered radical or fringe 13 years ago⏤the idea that stress and trauma could trigger autoimmune issues⏤

我不得不說，13 年前曾經被認為是激進的或邊緣的東西（例如壓力和創傷可能引起自體免疫問題的想法）

is now very much talked about in conventional settings.

現在在傳統環境中都非常頻繁地被談論。

And the things that may have seemed woo-woo and strange 13 years ago, now is being researched by reputable institutions.

13 年前可能是胡鬧和奇怪的事情，現在被有聲望的機構所研究。

I... I talk about the research of the book around "shinrinyoku", which is the Japanese term that translates as "forest bathing",

我談論到圍繞 shinrinyoku 一書的研究，這個詞源自日文，表示「森林浴」，

which sounds weird when you think of it in English, but it's actually a beautiful description.

當你用英文想它，聽起來很奇怪，但它其實是很美的描述。

I believe... the Japanese art of using nature as a meditation, using nature as a medicine.

我相信日本利用自然作為冥想的藝術，利用自然作為藥物。

And how research has show, like, just spending few minutes in nature and taking it in with all of your senses, like, a sensorial effect of nature,

研究已經顯示，只要花幾分鐘時間在大自然中，並用所有感官去感受這種大自然的感官效應，

lowers inflammation levels, lowers stress hormones, balances the human immune system,

能夠降低發炎程度、降低壓力荷爾蒙、平衡人類免疫系統，

actually improves the human microbiome because of the... the things you're smelling in and taking in with all of your senses.

實際可以改善人類的微生物組，只因為你用所有感官所聞、所體驗的一切。

So, I... I think the fact that researchers are looking at these ancient arts is a good sign that we, as a culture, are looking for something different.

所以說，我認為研究人員正在研究這些古代藝術的事實是一個好的跡象，顯示我們作為一種文化，正在尋找不同的東西。

'Cause I think, in many ways⏤do you remember that Pixar Film "WALL-E"?

因為我認為在許多方面——還記得皮克斯的電影《瓦力》嗎？

I think "WALL-E" is prophetic, in many ways, of, like, the path we could go down, where people are just sitting, looking at a screen, and we have lost all sense of reality.

我覺得《瓦力》在很多面向都有預言我們接下來走向的效果，人們只會呆坐著、看著螢幕，然後失去所有的現實感。

I don't⏤I think, whoever wrote "WALL-E", the people at Pixar, we can go a different direction.

我不——我想，不論《瓦力》編劇是皮克斯的誰，我們都可能前往一個不同的方向。

You know, this is such a... an interest⏤strange question to ask, based on what you've said.

根據你所說的內容，問這個問題可能有些奇怪。

But I was just... just as you finished speaking then, I was thinking about how we know this stuff,

但我只是——就在你講完的時候，我想著我們是如何知道這些東西。

Like, you know this stuff, I know this stuff; it's not the⏤in terms of like getting back to being a little bit more human in the way that we organize our lives.

這些東西你我都知道，並不是說——在我們組織生活的方式上，我們要更人性化一點。

But we⏤I was gonna ask you the question, like, do you do it?

但我們——我打算問你這樣的問題，你會不會做？

Yeah, I mean, to me, I don't think you have to pick between modernity and decreasing that chasm between genetics and epigenetics.

我是說，對我來說，我不認為你必須在現代性和減少遺傳學和表觀遺傳學的鴻溝之間進行選擇。

So, I live in a modern world, I run a telehealth clinic.

我生活在一個現代世界，我經營一間遠距醫療診所。

So, I use technology to speak to people around the world at⏤for the past 13 years, and we ship labs to them.

我會用科技與世界各地的人交談，在過去 13 年中，我們會像他們發送檢驗結果。

So, I, very much, am a fan of technology and⏤people are listening to us right now around the world.

所以說，我非常喜歡科技，現在全世界的人都在聽我們的聲音。

I love the decentralization, the democratization of health information because of technology.

我喜歡科技帶來的權力下放和健康資訊民主化。

It's wonderful.

這很美妙。

But I think the, sort of, unfettered lack of healthy boundaries with this phenomenon that we only have, relatively, a few years of experience with as... as a world,

但我認為，這種不受約束、缺乏健康界線的現象，我們整個世界相對來說只有幾年的經驗，

I think that that's something we just have to learn how to check ourselves, and we are all trying to figure it out right now.

我認為那是我們必須學會如何自省的東西，而我們現在都在試圖弄清楚。

So, do I live it? Yes, I live it, but I... I live it in a balanced way, where I have boundaries with technology.

所以說，我是否生活在其中？是的，我活在其中，但我是以一種平衡的方式生活，與科技有界線。

Like, my son's here in the studio with us right now.

像是今天跟我們一起在攝影棚的我兒子。

He's 16 years old; he just got a phone at 16.

他今年 16 歲，16 歲時才剛拿到第一支手機。

And so as a parent, I'm making these decisions of⏤there's kids that are like 8, 9 years old having social media.

身為家長，我正在做這些決定——有些小孩 8、9 歲就有社交媒體了。

And we have the US Surgeon General Dr. Vivek Murthy say recently that⏤

而美國醫務總監 Vivek Murthy 博士近期表示——

He says, and this is the US government saying, "Children under the age of 14 shouldn't have social media."

他說（這也是美國政府所說）：「14 歲以下的兒童不應該有社交媒體。」

If the US government's saying it, who takes well-measured, conservative advice for these type of things when it comes to wellness, historically,

美國政府在歷史上，當涉及到健康時，會採取良好、保守建議，

if they're recommending it, I could only assume that we have an issue at hand.

如果他們建議這樣做，我只能假設我們手上遇到了問題。

So, yes, I... I think it's just a matter for all of us to make these decisions for ourselves out of self-respect, not out of shame, but out of self-respect.

所以說，是的，我認為這只是一個所有人出於自尊為自己做的這些決定，不是出於羞恥，而是出於自尊。

What do I need?

我需要什麼？

What healthy margins, what healthy boundaries do I need to live a more sane life, to live a more joyous⏤to live a... a more meaningful life?

我想要過更理性、更快樂、很有意義的生活的話，需要哪些健康的界線？

Some people can handle, probably, more technology than me; some people could probably⏤

有些人大概比我更能應付更多的科技，有些人大概可以——

We all have, again, this bio-individuality when it comes to these things.

我重申，論及這些事時，我們都有生物獨特性。

But I think we just need to... to, out of self-respect, check ourselves.

但我認為我們只是需要出於自尊地自我檢視。

If you love the "Diary of a CEO" brand and you watch this channel, please do me a huge favor, become part of the 15% of the viewers on this channel that have hit the subscribe button.

如果你喜歡 Diary of a CEO 這個品牌，也有在收看頻道，請幫我一個忙並成為 15% 已經點擊訂閱的頻道觀眾之一。

It helps us tremendously, and the bigger the channel gets, the bigger the guests.

那對我們會有極大幫助，而頻道越強大、來賓就會更大咖。