Well, if mass protests are rare in Iran, they were practically unheard of in china yet over the past week and a half, that is exactly what we've seen anger on the streets of chinese cities.

如果說大規模抗議在伊朗很罕見，那麼在中國幾乎聞所未聞，然而在過去一週半的時間裡，這正是我們在中國城市的街道上看到的憤怒。

The biggest nationwide display of discontent this tightly controlled country has seen in a generation large crowds of protesters are openly defying the chinese president and calling on him and the Communist Party to step down, thousands of people took to the streets all over the country, angry and frustrated about the car countries, extremely harsh covid restrictions.

這是這個被嚴格控制的國家在一代人的時間裡所看到的最大的全國性不滿表現，大批抗議者公開反抗中國國家主席，並呼籲他和共產黨下臺，全國各地成千上萬的人走上街頭，對汽車國家極其嚴厲的毒品限制感到憤怒和沮喪。

Police have responded to the unrest with brutality, chaotic scenes of protesters being dragged, shoved and beaten.

警察對騷亂做出了粗暴的反應，出現了抗議者被拖拽、推搡和毆打的混亂場景。

My guest this week is CNN international correspondent Selina wang for months.

本週我的嘉賓是CNN國際記者Selina wang，為期數月。

She's been looking into the wide ranging repercussions of china's zero covid policy.

她一直在研究中國的零關稅政策所帶來的廣泛影響。

We talk about what put these protesters over the edge and what the government's response can tell us about its leader xi Jinping, let's go to Beijing From CNN This is one thing.

我們談談是什麼讓這些抗議者陷入困境，以及政府的反應可以告訴我們關於其領導人習近平的情況，讓我們去北京 來自CNN 這是一件事。

I'm David Ryan Selena.

我是大衛-萊恩-塞勒納。

Where does this story start?

這個故事從哪裡開始？

So these protests that we've been seeing sweeping across the country are the culmination of years of anger and frustration from people in china who have been living under these draconian zero covid lockdowns.

是以，我們看到席捲全國的這些抗議活動是多年來中國人民的憤怒和挫折感的頂點，他們一直生活在這些嚴厲的零關稅封鎖之下。

I mean this has been going on pretty much since the start of the pandemic people are stuck in this endless cycle of lockdowns, Mass quarantine mass testing and that is why all of this pent up anger, it's finally bubbling over in china.

我的意思是，自從大流行病開始以來，這種情況一直在持續，人們被困在這種無休止的封鎖、大規模隔離和大規模測試的循環中，這就是為什麼所有這些壓抑的憤怒，最終在中國湧現。

You know, I think when people in the US hear the words lockdown, they think of one thing.

你知道，我認為當美國人聽到封鎖這個詞時，他們會想到一件事。

But what is that actually entail in china?

但在中國，這實際上意味著什麼呢？

Like what is the zero covid policy in practice?

比如說，在實踐中，零存整取的政策是什麼？

Yeah, I mean I've been living through this myself.

是的，我的意思是我自己也經歷過這種情況。

It's incredibly frustrating, pretty much for the entirety of this year in order to do anything.

這是令人難以置信的沮喪，幾乎是在今年的整個過程中，為了做任何事情。

I've got to stand in a long line to get a covid test.

我得排著長隊去做covid測試。

It's fluctuated from one once a day, once every two days or once every three days.

從每天一次，每兩天一次或每三天一次，一直在波動。

It's impossible really to make any plans.

真的不可能制定任何計劃。

And every time you go in somewhere you scan a code so the government knows where you are at all times.

而每次你進入某個地方時，你都要掃描一個代碼，這樣政府就能隨時知道你在哪裡。

So when you're like, okay, I want to go meet a friend in a restaurant, then you're like, well if I go into that restaurant, I run the risk of being identified as a close contact.

是以，當你想，好吧，我想去餐廳見一個朋友，那麼你就會想，如果我進入那家餐廳，我就有可能被認定為密切接觸者。

Because what if tomorrow there's a covid case there.

因為如果明天那裡有一個貪汙案件怎麼辦。

So me going to this restaurant with my friend, I'm basically putting myself in the risk of getting sent to a mass quarantine facility, doing your rest of your week, the rest of your month by just doing a simple thing like going out to a restaurant.

是以，我和我的朋友去這家餐廳，我基本上是把自己置於被送入大規模隔離設施的風險之中，做你剩下的一週，你剩下的一個月，只是做一件簡單的事情，比如去餐廳。

Yeah, basically like doing anything, like going into a taxi, going into a park, you're like putting yourself into a lottery to have your whole life upended every single time.

是的，基本上就像做任何事情一樣，比如進入計程車，進入公園，你就像把自己放在一個彩票中，讓你的整個生活每次都被顛覆。

So it means that essentially for the past few years, if there's even a single covid case or a small handful of covid cases, a whole city could go into complete lockdown or your whole neighborhood could go into complete lockdown.

是以，這意味著在過去的幾年裡，如果有哪怕是單一的covid病例或一小撮covid病例，整個城市都可能進入完全封鎖狀態，或者你的整個社區都可能進入完全封鎖狀態。

And I mean lockdown as in some cases your doors bolted shut, sealed shut fences around your entire compound.

我指的是封鎖，因為在某些情況下，你的門被栓住了，你的整個院子周圍有密封的柵欄。

They hear and see people starving, they hear the screams for food and medicine.

他們聽到和看到人們在捱餓，他們聽到了對食物和藥品的尖叫聲。

And there have been countless stories of people who have died because they couldn't get emergency help and lockdown because they couldn't get enough food.

而且已經有無數的故事，人們因為無法得到緊急幫助而死亡，因為無法得到足夠的食物而被封鎖。

A desperate mother under lockdown jumping to her death from her 12th floor balcony.

一個被封鎖的絕望的母親從12樓的陽臺上跳下死亡。

These stories of suffering have played out over and over again.

這些痛苦的故事一次又一次地上演。

So you can imagine just how angry this would make The population.

所以你可以想象這將使民眾多麼憤怒。

The fire started on the 15th floor.

火災是從15樓開始的。

The smoke poisoned my family.

煙霧毒害了我的家人。

The government could not stop the fire in time.

政府無法及時制止火災。

So on November 24 there was a deadly fire in a room key.

是以，在11月24日，有一個房間的鑰匙發生了致命的火災。

This is the capital of China's far West Xinjiang province.

這是中國最西部的新疆省的首府。

This fire occurred on a high floor of an apartment building and videos went viral on social media before sensors were able to scrub all of them and it shows the fire blazing and smoke coming from the building and then you can see there are these tents and covid fences surrounding the compound that appeared to be preventing Ambulances and fire trucks from getting close enough to the building.

這場火災發生在一棟公寓樓的高樓層，在傳感器能夠刷新所有視頻之前，視頻在社交媒體上瘋傳，它顯示火勢熊熊，煙霧從大樓裡冒出，然後你可以看到有這些帳篷和帆布圍欄圍繞著大院，似乎在阻止救護車和消防車靠近大樓。

They could not escape because the fire escape was blocked and the fire escape to the roof of the building was also locked and then the video shows water going up towards the building but not actually reaching the fire because it's not close enough.

他們無法逃學生，因為消防通道被堵住了，通往樓頂的消防通道也被鎖住了，然後視頻顯示，水向樓頂升起，但實際上並沒有到達火場，因為它不夠近。

And at least 10 people died.

而且至少有10人死亡。

Several more were injured.

還有幾個人受傷。

Although some accounts say the death toll was higher than that and that was really the straw that broke the camel's back.

雖然有些說法是死亡人數比這更多，而這確實是壓垮駱駝的那根稻草。

Because there have been these heartbreaking stories just continuously for years.

因為多年來一直有這些令人心碎的故事在不斷髮生。

So these protests, protests in china in general are incredibly rare, right?

所以這些抗議活動，在中國一般的抗議活動是非常罕見的，對嗎？

Like what did this look like?

比如這看起來像什麼？

Yeah, protests are rare.

是的，抗議活動很罕見。

Now during Covid we've seen a lot of localized uprisings in a community, you know, where people are just like I'm breaking out of lockdown, you know, let me out of here.

現在，在Covid期間，我們已經看到了很多社區的局部起義，你知道，人們就像我正在突破封鎖，你知道，讓我離開這裡。

What made these protests so rare was that it was happening sort of around the same time in multiple cities across china.

使這些抗議活動如此罕見的是，它是在中國多個城市的同一時間發生的。

We're talking about major cities, small cities, university campuses and some of these protests turned into calls not just to end zero Covid but into political demands in shanghai.

我們談論的是大城市、小城市、大學校園，其中一些抗議活動不僅變成了對結束零度Covid的呼籲，而且變成了上海的政治要求。

There were chants, People were saying she Jinping shat high.

人們高呼，說她金平拉的屎很高。

They were saying to xi Jinping stepped down.

他們在說給習近平下臺。

I mean that is virtually unheard of.

我的意思是這幾乎是聞所未聞的。

And so I was still, you know, just getting off live on air and we got word that there was a protest breaking out in Beijing.

是以，我還在，你知道，剛剛結束直播，我們得到消息說北京發生了抗議活動。

So I rushed out to a central area of Beijing and I found myself in the middle of a protest in the capital.

於是我趕到北京的一箇中心區域，我發現自己處於首都的抗議活動中。

It was surreal.

這是不現實的。

People have gathered here in the center of Beijing to protest the covid measures.

人們在這裡聚集在北京市中心，抗議這些貪婪的措施。

We are in Salyan district, this is the city center.

我們在Salyan區，這裡是市中心。

So being in the middle of that protest in Beijing there was a lot of excitement, there was some anxiety, there was a lot of energy of it was mostly young people and they were largely chanting Giulio which means no more covid tests.

是以，在北京的抗議活動中，有很多興奮，有一些焦慮，有很多能量，主要是年輕人，他們基本上都在高呼朱利奧，意思是不要再做科維德測試。

We want freedom.

我們想要自由。

There is a heavy police presence.

有大量警察在場。

I am surrounded by police.

我被警察包圍了。

They're telling me to shift in a little bit and there was an interesting discussion among protesters where some started to call for more political reforms and then other people were saying no no no that's going too far right.

他們讓我往裡移一點，抗議者之間有一個有趣的討論，一些人開始呼籲進行更多的政治改革，然後其他人說不不不，那就太右了。

Like let's not go in that direction, let's just focus this on Covid.

就像我們不要往那個方向走，讓我們把注意力放在科維德身上。

And I interviewed a man who spoke to me live on camera and I can't even begin to say how rare that is.

我還採訪了一個人，他在鏡頭前與我交談，我甚至無法說這是多麼難得的事情。

He was putting himself at risk but he wanted to talk talk to me, he was totally fine being on camera mask list and he said that all conscientious chinese people should be out here with us and he said I'm not looking for regime change or government change.

他把自己置於危險之中，但他想和我談一談，他對上鏡頭的面具名單完全沒有意見，他說所有有良知的中國人都應該和我們一起出來，他說我不是在尋求政權的改變或政府的改變。

I just want them to hear our voices.

我只是希望他們能聽到我們的聲音。

Many of those people, they were holding up white pieces of paper.

這些人中有許多人，他們舉著白色的紙片。

We've seen that in cities across china So that really is a symbol against censorship?

我們在中國各地的城市看到了這種情況，那麼這真的是一個反對審查制度的象徵嗎？

It's like you can't arrest me for holding up a white piece of paper.

這就像你不能因為我舉著一張白紙而逮捕我。

There's nothing on it.

這上面什麼都沒有。

Are you going to censor a blank sheet?

你要對一張白紙進行審查嗎？

Yeah.

是的。

Are you going to censor a blank sheet of paper?

你要對一張白紙進行審查嗎？

It's like I spoke to a protester just the other day and he said to me, it's like a symbol of our generation.

就像我前幾天和一個抗議者交談，他對我說，這就像我們這一代的象徵。

It's everything we want to say.

這就是我們想說的一切。

But we can't say that white paper is everything that we want to say and you cannot arrest us for just holding a white paper.

但我們不能說那份白皮書就是我們想說的一切，你不能因為我們只是拿著一份白皮書就逮捕我們。

But of course the government did censor images of people holding white papers.

但當然，政府確實審查了人們手持白皮書的影像。

What do you think you guys achieved by participating in that protest?

你認為你們通過參加那次抗議活動取得了什麼成果？

If you don't demonstrate, if you don't show them your voice, your idea, they would never know.

如果你不展示，如果你不向他們展示你的聲音、你的想法，他們就永遠不會知道。

Violence will not protect you.

暴力不會保護你。

So Selena like you were alluding to before the break, chinese authorities responded to these protests.

是以，像你在休息前所暗示的那樣，塞琳娜，中國當局對這些抗議活動作出了迴應。

Like we would imagine they cracked down really, really hard.

就像我們想象的那樣，他們的打擊非常非常嚴厲。

There were some violent scuffles in some cities.

在一些城市發生了一些暴力混戰。

The internet censors were describe any mention of the demonstrations.

互聯網審查員描述了任何有關示威的資訊。

Police were even seen checking people's cell phones and calling protesters in the days after.

在之後的幾天裡，人們甚至看到警察檢查人們的手機並給抗議者打電話。

But what I find really interesting here is that china experts have been saying, oh, this is much bigger than just a china story.

但我發現這裡真正有趣的是，中國專家一直在說，哦，這比中國的故事大得多。

Like these lockdowns could impact the global economy and just look at what's happening at the big Foxconn factory there, can you break that down for me?

就像這些封鎖可能會影響全球經濟，看看富士康那裡的大工廠發生了什麼，你能為我分析一下嗎？

Yes.

是的。

So since mid october, the world's largest iphone factory in Chengdu in central china.

是以，自10月中旬以來，位於中國中部成都的世界最大的蘋果手機工廠。

They've been dealing with absolute chaos at the sprawling Foxconn manufacturing plant in china, have been attempting to escape what is a very strict covid lockdown after a covid outbreak, there were viral videos showing workers walking miles by foot on highways trying to flee the factory because of the total chaotic covid restrictions there.

他們一直在處理中國龐大的富士康製造廠的絕對混亂問題，一直試圖逃離非常嚴格的ovid封鎖，因為那裡完全混亂的ovid限制，有病毒視頻顯示工人在高速公路上步行數英里試圖逃離工廠。

Then Foxconn went on a hiring spree to try and replace those workers because they need workers ahead of the big holiday season, right?

然後，富士康大肆招聘，試圖取代這些工人，因為他們在大的假日季節之前需要工人，對嗎？

They need to pump out those iphones for apple.

他們需要為蘋果抽出那些蘋果手機。

So they went on a mass hiring spree, brought in more workers, but the COVID restrictions remain what people do not get about Foxconn.

所以他們大肆招聘，帶來了更多的工人，但COVID的限制仍然是人們對富士康不理解的地方。

It is massive.

它是巨大的。

300,000 people all crammed together in small rooms and little places and in very crowded workspace.

30萬人都擠在小房間和小地方，在非常擁擠的工作區。

This is not fun.

這並不有趣。

So the workers are living sleeping and working on site and they were complaining about pay disputes, the terrible living conditions, unsanitary conditions and workers had enough.

是以，工人們住在工地上睡覺和工作，他們抱怨工資糾紛、糟糕的生活條件、不衛生的條件，工人們受夠了。

So there was a mass revolt of workers clashing with police, tearing apart covid barriers using covid barriers as shields, using metal parts from the fence as weapons to hit the police.

是以，出現了工人與警察發生衝突的大規模起義，他們撕毀科維德屏障，用科維德屏障作為盾牌，用柵欄上的金屬部件作為武器來打擊警察。

And there are videos of police brutally hitting and beating the workers as well.

而且還有警察粗暴地打擊和毆打工人的視頻。

It was an absolute mess as a result Foxconn was like, okay, we're gonna boost pay, we're gonna make this situation better.

這絕對是一個混亂的結果，富士康想，好吧，我們要提高工資，我們要使這種情況得到改善。

We apologize for the error.

我們對這一錯誤表示歉意。

But of course the damage is already done.

但當然，損害已經造成了。

Analysts estimate that during this chaotic period Apple was losing a billion dollars a week in lost iphone sales.

分析師估計，在這一混亂時期，蘋果公司每週因蘋果手機銷售損失而損失10億美元。

I mean that's so like these harsh restrictions are not just a local problem.

我的意思是，這就像這些苛刻的限制不僅僅是一個地方性問題。

It can have kind of global impacts on supply chain tech, all that kind of stuff.

它可以對供應鏈技術產生某種全球影響，所有這些東西。

Yeah.

是的。

I mean china is the world's factory floor.

我的意思是中國是世界的工廠。

This is the world's second largest economy.

這是世界第二大經濟體。

It is critical when there's a problem in china impacts global supply change that impacts the global economy and look zero.

當中國有一個問題影響到全球供應變化，影響到全球經濟和看零，這是至關重要的。

Covid has definitely made global companies reassess their reliance on china, especially companies like Apple, but china is still critical and the importance of china in this global network global supply chain, it's it's not going to go away.

Covid肯定使全球公司重新評估他們對中國的依賴，特別是像蘋果這樣的公司，但中國仍然是關鍵，中國在這個全球網絡全球供應鏈中的重要性，它是它不會消失。

But this is definitely a wake up call to big companies.

但這絕對是對大公司的一個警醒。

I have to say wait, wait, wait.

我不得不說等待、等待、等待。

We rely so heavily on china, a country where at any moment all your operations could go dark.

我們如此依賴中國，這個國家在任何時候你的所有業務都可能陷入黑暗。

Is that a smart idea?

這是個聰明的主意嗎？

So the message from the protesters is we don't want these Covid tests anymore.

是以，抗議者發出的資訊是我們不再想要這些Covid測試。

We want to be able to move about.

我們希望能夠四處走動。

So is there a sense that that message is breaking through to the government.

那麼，是否有一種感覺，這種資訊正在突破政府。

Do we know if they're going to ease off on some of these harsh restrictions that have been the source of all this anger.

我們是否知道他們是否會放鬆一些嚴厲的限制，這些限制是所有這些憤怒的來源。

So we've already seen health officials soften their tone with nice phrases like we need to have a more human centered approach to Covid in Guangzhou where there have been these major riots, they announced they're lifting lockdowns in some district and that they're no longer requiring district wide mass testing.

是以，我們已經看到衛生官員用漂亮的短語軟化了他們的語氣，如我們需要對廣州的Covid採取更以人為本的方法，那裡發生了這些重大的騷亂，他們宣佈在一些地區取消封鎖，他們不再要求在整個地區進行大規模測試。

They have lifted lockdowns in some other areas as well.

他們在其他一些地區也取消了封鎖。

But for the majority of the population there's really no change to the policy and china's kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place because the studies do show that if they were to completely open up there would be a mass number of deaths because they have not been able to vaccinate enough of the vulnerable elderly population and china's hospital capacity?

但對於大多數人來說，政策確實沒有變化，中國有點夾在石頭和硬地方之間，因為研究表明，如果他們完全開放，會有大量的死亡，因為他們沒有能力為脆弱的老年人口接種足夠的疫苗，而中國的醫院能力？

They don't have enough I.

他們沒有足夠的I。

C.

C.

U.

U.

Capacity instead of putting their resources into vaccinating the population.

能力，而不是將他們的資源用於為民眾接種疫苗。

Getting a more effective M RNA vaccination to the population.

讓民眾獲得更有效的M RNA疫苗接種。

Instead of boosting that hospital capacity they put all their resources to mass testing and quarantine and lockdowns.

他們沒有提高醫院的能力，而是將所有資源用於大規模測試、隔離和封鎖。

So in reality this zero Covid it's it's not going away.

是以，在現實中，這個零科維德是它不會消失的。

Right.

對。

So I guess you know with that said what is the reality for people still in china?

所以我想你知道，說到這裡，仍然在中國的人的現實是什麼？

Is there any kind of effort for people to remove themselves from this situation?

是否有任何形式的努力讓人們從這種情況中擺脫出來？

Find opportunities elsewhere?

在其他地方尋找機會？

What have you found on that front?

你在這方面有什麼發現？

So there is a lot of sentiment among many chinese people that they want to emigrate.

是以，在許多中國人中，有很多人想移民的情緒。

They want to go to a different country.

他們想去一個不同的國家。

But china has made it really hard for chinese nationals to leave this country.

但是中國已經讓中國公民離開這個國家變得非常困難。

Have you told your family where you are?

你有沒有告訴你的家人你在哪裡？

I did speak to one man who went to extreme lengths to get out of this country.

我確實和一個人談過，他為了離開這個國家而採取了極端的手段。

He flew from china to South America from there he motor cycled, he walked by foot, he bust thousands of miles to the US Mexico border.

他從中國飛往南美洲，從那裡他騎摩托車，他步行，他破費了數千英里到達美國墨西哥邊境。

You know he even trekked through the Panama rainforest and then he did illegally cross the border.

你知道他甚至徒步穿越了巴拿馬雨林，然後他確實非法越境。

He is currently seeking asylum and he's hoping to live his life out in America.

他目前正在尋求庇護，他希望能在美國過自己的生活。

He just couldn't take the restrictions.

他只是無法接受這些限制。

The lockdowns anymore, which of course also made it harder for him to make ends meet and he does still have his Children in china but he's hoping to find some way any way to bring them to America with him.

封鎖了，這當然也使他更難維持生計，他確實還有他的孩子在中國，但他希望能找到一些方法，讓他們和他一起去美國。

Well, Selena thanks very much, really appreciate it.

好吧，塞琳娜非常感謝，真的很感激。

Thanks for having me.

謝謝你邀請我。

One thing is a production of CNN audio.

有一件事是CNN音頻的製作。

This episode was produced by paolo Ortiz and me.

本集由保羅-奧爾蒂斯和我製作。

David Rind Matt Dempsey is our production manager, says Jamil is our senior producer.

大衛-林德-馬特-鄧普西是我們的製作經理，賈米爾說是我們的高級製作人。

Greg Peppers is our supervising producer.

Greg Peppers是我們的監製。

And Abbie Fentress Swanson is the executive producer of CNN Audio if you like the show, leave us a rating and a review on apple podcasts.

阿比-芬特雷斯-斯旺森是CNN音頻的執行製片人，如果你喜歡這個節目，請在蘋果播客上給我們留下評分和評論。

It helps other people discover the show and if you want to be a little more direct with feedback.

這有助於其他人發現這個節目，如果你想更直接一點的反饋。

I'm on social media.

我在社交媒體上。

Love to hear from you.

喜歡聽到你的聲音。

Thanks for listening.

謝謝你的聆聽。

We'll be back next sunday Talk to you then.

我們將在下週日回來，屆時與你交談。