you have to choose to some extent, a life of suffering.

你必須在某種程度上選擇痛苦的生活。

You might wonder,

你可能想知道。

"Why would evolution be so

"為什麼進化論會如此

malevolent to curse us with pain?"

邪惡的人用痛苦來詛咒我們？"

But there's actually a perfectly good evolutionary

但實際上有一個完美的進化論

argument for this.

這方面的論據。

It serves the function of training you

它的功能是訓練你

to avoid things that damage the body.

以避免損害身體的事情。

Just like hunger drives you to food

就像飢餓感驅使你去吃東西一樣

and lust drives you to sex,

和慾望驅使你去做愛。

pain pushes you away from things that would hurt you.

痛苦使你遠離那些會傷害你的東西。

But that sets up a puzzle, which is if the purpose of pain,

但這就設置了一個難題，那就是如果痛苦的目的。

and fear, and grief, and all of that is to avoid them,

和恐懼，以及悲傷，所有這些都是為了避免它們。

why do we sometimes seek them out?

為什麼我們有時會去尋找它們？

Why do we go to movies that scare us?

為什麼我們會去看那些讓我們害怕的電影？

Why do we do things like push our bodies to the limit?

我們為什麼要做把身體推到極限這樣的事情？

So where is the lure of the negative?

那麼，負面的誘惑在哪裡呢？

Why are we drawn towards them?

為什麼我們會被他們吸引？

And that's the puzzle, which I'm very interested in.

而這就是我非常感興趣的難題。

I'm Paul Bloom.

我是保羅-布魯姆。

I'm a professor of psychology at the University of Toronto,

我是多倫多大學的一名心理學教授。

and my new book is called

而我的新書叫做

"The Sweet Spot:

"甜蜜點"。

The Pleasures of Suffering and a Search for Meaning."

苦難的樂趣和對意義的尋求"。

There's a world of difference between chosen suffering,

選擇的痛苦之間有天壤之別。

which I think has all sorts of benefits,

我認為這有各種各樣的好處。

and unchosen suffering.

和未選擇的痛苦。

Unchosen suffering like: chronic pain.

未選擇的痛苦如：慢性疼痛。

Like: your child dies,

比如：你的孩子死了。

your house burns down,

你的房子被燒燬。

you lose your job,

你失去了你的工作。

you get assaulted.

你被毆打了。

Sometimes they can strengthen you.

有時它們可以加強你的力量。

Sometimes they can build you up spiritually

有時，他們可以在精神上建立起你

or emotionally or even physically.

或情感上或甚至身體上。

But for the most part, they're bad for you.

但在大多數情況下，它們對你來說是有害的。

Avoid them. Avoid them, if you can.

避免他們。如果你可以的話，避免他們。

I think the real value in life,

我認為生活中的真正價值。

the richness is found in chosen suffering.

豐富的內容是在選擇的痛苦中找到的。

So Alan Watts has this wonderful story he tells.

所以Alan Watts有這樣一個精彩的故事，他說。

He says, imagine you go to sleep one night

他說，想象一下，有一天晚上你去睡覺的時候

and you find yourself in a lucid dream.

而你發現自己在一個清晰的夢中。

You could dream whatever you want.

你可以做任何你想做的夢。

Any sort of joy, pleasure, any experience you want.

任何形式的快樂、愉悅，任何你想要的體驗。

If you could fantasize about it, you could experience it.

如果你能幻想它，你就能體驗它。

Then you wake up the next morning

然後你在第二天早上醒來時

and you get to have whatever dream you want again.

而你可以再次擁有你想要的任何夢想。

And again, it's a lucid dream.

再說一遍，這是個清醒的夢。

And again, you explore pleasure and all sorts of excitement.

而且，你再次探索快樂和各種刺激。

But sooner or later, Watts points out,

但遲早有一天，沃茨指出。

you're gonna get bored of this.

你會對這個感到厭煩的。

What you're gonna do

你要做什麼

is you're gonna throw out some obstacles.

是你要拋出一些障礙。

You're gonna set up the possibility for failure.

你要設置失敗的可能性。

You're gonna set up situations where you do fail,

你要設置一些你確實失敗的情況。

because if you don't fail, then the successes mean nothing

因為如果你不失敗，那麼成功就毫無意義。

and soon you'll be living a life in your dreams

很快你就會過上夢想中的生活

of complexity, of struggle, of pain.

複雜的、鬥爭的、痛苦的。

And then he says you'll be living a life

然後他說你將會過上一種生活

much like the life you live now.

很像你現在的生活。

There's a deep insight here

這裡有一個深刻的洞察力

which is that the good things in life

這就是，生活中的美好事物

only make sense relative to the bad things.

只有相對於壞事才有意義。

If you win every competition you engage in

如果你贏得了你所參與的每一次競爭

there's no fun to it.

毫無樂趣可言。

You have to have the possibility of loss.

你必須要有損失的可能性。

If all of your experiences are positive

如果你的經驗都是積極的

they cease to become positive, you need a negative.

他們不再成為積極的，你需要一個消極的。

From a Darwinian perspective,

從達爾文的角度來看。

it's no mystery why we seek out good food,

我們為什麼要尋找好的食物，這並不神祕。

good sex, good company, all of that good stuff.

好的性生活，好的公司，所有這些好東西。

But people do more than that.

但人們做的事情不止這些。

People often choose to suffer,

人們常常選擇受苦。

and they do so in ways that go from small to the big.

他們以由小到大的方式進行。

So the small, something like hot chilies,

是以，小的，類似於辣子的東西。

working your way through a crossword puzzle, saunas,

通過填字遊戲的方式工作，三溫暖。

hot baths, scary movies, massage pain,

熱水澡、恐怖電影、按摩疼痛。

running till it hurts.

奔跑到痛。

Moving it up a bit, some people willingly engage in projects

再往上移一點，有些人願意從事的項目

that involve a lot of suffering and difficulty.

這涉及很多痛苦和困難。

No one who decides to have a kid

沒有人決定要生孩子

is unaware that this is gonna be difficult.

是不知道這將是困難的。

If you were in such good shape

如果你的身體狀況這麼好

that training for a triathlon was easy,

訓練鐵人三項很容易。

it wouldn't have much meaning for you.

它對你來說就沒有什麼意義了。

But the difficulty is part and parcel of things.

但是，困難是事情的一部分和組成部分。

Part of what makes it valuable.

這也是它有價值的部分原因。

I've long been interested in the relationship

我長期以來一直對這一關係感興趣

between a life of meaning and chosen suffering.

在有意義的生活和選擇的痛苦之間。

Meaning, and now we're sort of away

意思是，現在我們算是離開了

from the spicy food, crossword puzzle.

從辛辣的食物，字謎。

Meaning, in the broad sense, is intimately related

廣義上的意義是密切相關的

to the more heavy duty suffering and difficulty.

到更重的痛苦和困難。

I would go so far as to say that

我甚至可以說，

if it's not hard at some level, if you don't look back on it

如果它在某種程度上不難，如果你不回頭看它

and sort of shudder a bit, it probably isn't meaningful.

並有點不寒而慄，這可能沒有什麼意義。

There was a survey done of over a million people

有一項對超過一百萬人的調查

and the survey asked, what's your job?

和調查問，你的工作是什麼？

And then they asked how meaningful is your job?

然後他們問，你的工作有多大意義？

And the most meaningful jobs were not the jobs

而最有意義的工作並不是那些工作

that were high status,

這些都是地位很高的。

nor were they the jobs that paid the most.

它們也不是報酬最高的工作。

They were jobs like being an educator,

它們是像教育工作者一樣的工作。

a medical professional, in the military,

醫學專家，在軍隊中。

that involve struggle and difficulty.

涉及鬥爭和困難。

So we see in our lives a whole spectrum of suffering

是以，我們在生活中看到整個痛苦的光譜

from things so mild, they barely deserve the name,

從如此溫和的事情，它們幾乎不值得這個名字。

you know eating some spicy food,

你知道吃一些辛辣的食物。

or working your way through a crossword puzzle.

或通過填字遊戲的方式工作。

No reward, nothing.

沒有獎勵，什麼都沒有。

You just do it because it's hard.

你只是因為它很難做。

All the way to the sort of pursuits

一路走來的那種追求

that structure our lives.

構建我們的生活。

And I actually, I'm gonna make a pretty strong claim here.

而實際上，我在這裡要提出一個相當強烈的要求。

I think that the way people think about meaning

我認為，人們對意義的思考方式

our very notion of what a meaningful experience

我們對有意義的經驗的概念是什麼？

or meaningful goal, or meaningful life is,

或有意義的目標，或有意義的生活是。

is that it requires some degree of suffering.

是，它需要一定程度的痛苦。

Where suffering could be physical pain.

其中痛苦可能是身體上的疼痛。

It could be difficulty, it could be worrying.

這可能是困難，可能是擔心。

It could be the possibility of failure.

這可能是失敗的可能性。

But stripped of that, the experience isn't meaningful.

但剝離了這一點，這種體驗就沒有意義了。

We need pain and suffering to have rich and happy lives.

我們需要痛苦和磨難來擁有豐富和快樂的生活。