in-the-air perspective, is that we're all--

從空中的角度來看，我們都...

Oh, I see what you did there.

哦，我知道你在那裡做了什麼。

Because Sam can fly.

因為山姆會飛。

Oh, OK. - Yeah.

哦，好的。- 是的。

You--

你 --

You must be some kind of writer.

你一定是某種類型的作家。

[MUSIC PLAYING]

[音樂響起]

Hi, everyone.

嗨，大家好。

My name is Evan Narcisse.

我的名字是Evan Narcisse。

I'm a comic book writer and a recovering journalist.

我是一個漫畫家，也是一個正在恢復的記者。

Most recently, my work for Marvel

最近，我為Marvel的工作

has included "Rise of the Black Panther," Marvel's "Voices,"

其中包括 "黑豹的崛起"、漫威的 "聲音"。

and "The Last Annihilation:

和《最後的湮滅》。

Wakanda."

瓦坎達。"

And I am Tochi Onyebuchi, author

我是Tochi Onyebuchi，作者

and NAACP Image Award finalist, most notably

和NAACP形象獎入圍者，最著名的是

known for "Captain America:

以 "美國隊長 "而聞名。

Symbol of Truth" and "Black Panther:

真理的象徵 "和 "黑豹"。

Legends."

傳說"。

Thank you so much for joining me here on "Disney+ Voices"

非常感謝你加入我的 "迪士尼+聲音 "節目。

to discuss the expansion of Black narratives

來討論黑人敘事的擴展

in the Super Hero genre, and how elements from Black culture

在超級英雄流派中，黑人文化中的元素是如何形成的？

have become ever more present in today's comics, specifically

在今天的漫畫中變得越來越多，特別是

in the Marvel Universe.

在漫威宇宙中。

I, you know--

我，你知道 --

So, Tochi--

那麼，Tochi --

I just-- like it's--

我只是... ...喜歡它...

[LAUGHING]

[大笑]

It's funny, because I feel like during the course of this

這很有趣，因為我覺得在這個過程中

conversation, this is going to happen a lot,

談話，這將會經常發生。

where we're both like, I'm--

在那裡我們都喜歡，我...

[INTERPOSING VOICES] - I want to say something.

[我想說點什麼。

Because I'm excited to talk about you.

因為我很想談一談你。

And I'm excited to talk about you.

而我很高興能談及你。

You're my friend.

你是我的朋友。

And you're my friend, too.

而且你也是我的朋友。

Exactly.

正是如此。

Talk to me about why you think, like,

跟我說說你為什麼這麼想，比如。

Sam is such an important character when we talk

當我們交談時，山姆是一個如此重要的角色

about the evolution of Black Super Hero portrayals

關於黑人超級英雄形象的演變

within the Marvel Universe.

在漫威宇宙中。

Really now, he's front and center in a way

真的，現在，他在某種程度上是前臺和中心。

he hasn't been before, right?

他以前沒有去過，對嗎？

Like, Marvel Studios' "The Falcon and The Winter Soldier,"

比如，漫威影業的 "獵鷹與冬兵"。

people are experiencing this character

人們正經歷著這種特性

in a whole new context.

在一個全新的背景下。

It's really dope to see Sam Wilson

看到薩姆-威爾遜真的很有成就感

take on this really iconic role and not be a sidekick.

承擔這個真正具有標誌性的角色，而不是做一個跟班。

And we saw some of this in "Falcon

我們在《獵鷹》中看到了一些這方面的內容。

and The Winter Soldier."

和《冬兵》。"

And you know, it's time.

而且你知道，現在是時候了。

There is that-- it's time.

有了這個--是時候了。

It's almost past time.

時間快過了。

I was about to say, it's past time if we're being

我想說的是，如果我們要做的是，現在已經是時候了。

really real, it's way past time.

真的很真實，現在已經過了時間。

Exactly, yeah, if we're keeping it 100 emoji.

沒錯，是的，如果我們要保持100個表情符號。

There's an incredible richness that you

有一種令人難以置信的豐富性，你

get in having a Black man, having a Black Super Hero assume

在有一個黑人的情況下，有一個黑人超級英雄的假設

the role of Captain America, particularly

美國隊長的角色，特別是

given the state of America.

鑑於美國的狀況。

There's this temptation to do this sort of throat clearing

有這樣的誘惑，做這種清嗓子的事情

in the beginning, right?

在開始時，對嗎？

And we've seen this in previous instances of Sam

而我們在以前的Sam的例子中已經看到了這一點。

holding the shield, which is to address

持有盾牌，這是為了解決

the question of the racism that he'll face domestically,

他在國內將面臨的種族主義問題。

the #NotMyCaptainAmerica folks.

不是我的美國隊長 "的人們。

And I wanted to skip right past that, because in my mind,

而我想直接跳過這一點，因為在我心中。

Sam Wilson's not going to put down

山姆-威爾遜不打算放下

the shield because some edgelord's like,

盾牌，因為一些邊緣人的喜歡。

don't think that a Black man should-- like,

不認為一個黑人應該......比如。

he's Captain America, like, he's just--

他是美國隊長，就像，他只是 --

he's going to do his job.

他要做他的工作。

He's got bigger fish to fry, so to speak.

可以說，他有更大的魚要釣。

What I realized was really cool about it

我意識到它真正酷的地方是

was that this was an opportunity to build Sam Wilson's cannon.

是說這是一個建造山姆-威爾遜大炮的機會。

Because we haven't necessarily seen

因為我們還不一定看到

Sam interact with the majority of the Marvel Universe

薩姆與漫威宇宙的大多數人互動

as Captain America.

擔任美國隊長。

Sam is going to interact with T'Challa, with Wakanda,

山姆要與特查拉、瓦坎達互動。

very differently than Steve Rogers

與史蒂夫-羅傑斯非常不同

would, because he's a Black man, because he's African American.

會，因為他是一個黑人，因為他是非洲裔美國人。

Because he might be thinking in a way

因為他可能是以一種方式在思考

that Steve isn't thinking, of the question of,

史蒂夫沒有想到，這個問題的。

OK, Wakanda's had all these resources,

好吧，瓦坎達擁有所有這些資源。

and they just let the rest of the Black world

而他們只是讓其餘的黑人世界

go through what they were going through?

經歷了他們所經歷的一切？

Like, that's-- it's such a rich--

就像，那是... ...它是如此豐富的... ...。

Yes, yes.

是的，是的。

--dramatic material.

--戲劇性的材料。

When I was writing "Rise of the Black Panther,"

當我在寫 "黑豹的崛起 "時，

one of my favorite scenes that I wrote

我最喜歡的場景之一，我寫的

was, you know, a young T'Challa is in New York,

是，你知道，一個年輕的T'Challa在紐約。

and he runs up against Luke Cage,

而他碰到了盧克-凱奇。

like, back when he's still Carl Lucas.

比如，回到他還是卡爾-盧卡斯的時候。

And part of the reason was just pure fanboy.

而部分原因只是純粹的粉絲。

I was like, look, this man has been

我當時想，看，這個人已經被

running around with a pseudonym that sounds just like yours.

用一個聽起來和你一樣的假名到處跑。

What if they meet

如果他們遇到

And then they're like, oh, we're not going to be best friends.

然後他們就會說，哦，我們不可能成為最好的朋友。

I don't know you. You're trying to rob me.

我不認識你。你想搶劫我。

Because-- - Exactly.

因為......正是如此。

That's how Luke ran back in the day, right?

盧克當年就是這樣跑的，對嗎？

I think some readers might pick up "Symbol of Truth"

我想有些讀者可能會拿起 "真理的象徵"。

and expect there to be all these cameos from

並期望有所有這些客串，從

other Black Super Heroes, and everybody's just getting along,

其他黑人超級英雄，大家就這樣相處著。

right?

對嗎？

And they're all on the same team,

而且他們都在同一個團隊。

because they're Black Super Heroes, right?

因為他們是黑人超級英雄，對嗎？

That's not what I have planned.

這不是我的計劃。

And it's super dope, because you get to really highlight

它是超級棒的，因為你可以真正突出

these really interesting sort of intracommunal conflicts

這些真正有趣的社區內部衝突

that I think are such rich dramatic material.

我認為這是很豐富的戲劇性材料。

I read the first issue of "Symbol of Truth"

我讀了第一期 "真理的象徵 "雜誌

a couple of weeks ago.

幾周前。

But even before that, I read "Black Panther:

但即使在這之前，我也讀過《黑豹》。

Legends," the first couple of issues,

傳說》，前幾期。

and I love how you're using Hunter so much.

而且我喜歡你對亨特的使用方式。

I was like, yes, somebody else who gets it.

我當時想，是的，還有人懂這個。

This dude is fascinating.

這哥們兒很有魅力。

Like, you're the only one in Wakanda.

比如，你是瓦坎達唯一的人。

Like, what do you do?

比如，你是做什麼的？

And then you're being the shady ultra-nationalist?

然後你就成了陰暗的極端民族主義者？

Like, it's just such a great character to tap into.

就像，它就是這樣一個可以挖掘的偉大角色。

I mean, I couldn't-- as soon as I discovered him,

我的意思是，我不能......我一發現他，我就不能。

there was no way I wasn't going to use him.

我不可能不利用他。

I was just like, this guy has just been sitting on the shelf

我只是想，這傢伙一直在架子上坐著。

the whole time.

整個過程中。

Like, what is-- - Yeah, yeah.

比如，什麼是... ... - 是的，是的。

--going on?

--正在進行中？

And I love it, because it's this brilliant kind

我喜歡它，因為它是這種輝煌的類型。

of like subversive implementation

顛覆性的實施

of the Tarzan myth, right?

的泰山神話，對嗎？

It's like--

這就像...

Oh.

哦。

--you're a White guy who crash-lands in Africa,

--你是一個在非洲墜落的白人。

and you're king of the jungle? Guess what?

而你是叢林之王？你猜怎麼著？

The jungle already has a king.

叢林裡已經有了一個國王。

So we'll let you live, but you're not going to be

所以我們會讓你活著，但你不會是

king of anything over here.

在這裡，任何東西都是國王的。

So I just-- as like a psychological motivation

所以我只是--作為一種心理上的動機

for him to, like, to turn towards amorality,

對他來說，比如說，轉向非道德的行為。

I think, is brilliant.

我認為，這很有意義。

So I'm really excited to see what else you do with him.

所以我真的很想看看你還能用他做什麼。

Oh, man, thank you so, so much.

哦，夥計，非常感謝你，非常感謝。

When I was doing my research for "Black Panther:

當我在為 "黑豹 "做研究時。

Legends," and I was reading up on T'Challa and so much

傳說"，我正在閱讀關於T'Challa和如此多的內容

of the mythology of him, "Rise of the Black Panther"

的神話故事，"黑豹的崛起"

was an essential work for me.

對我來說，這是一部至關重要的作品。

Well, how did you go from being a kid who loved comics

那麼，你是如何從一個喜歡漫畫的孩子變成了一個熱愛漫畫的人呢？

to writing something like "Rise of the Black Panther"

撰寫類似 "黑豹的崛起 "的文章

for Marvel?

為Marvel？

Comics have always been a part of my life,

漫畫一直是我生命中的一部分。

a huge part of my life, right?

是我生活中的一個重要部分，對嗎？

Like, I grew up reading them.

比如，我是讀著它們長大的。

I learned to read from reading comics.

我是通過看漫畫學會閱讀的。

And one of the earliest characters that I latched on to

而我最早接觸到的一個角色是

was T'Challa.

是T'Challa。

One of the reasons I loved him was because he gave me

我愛他的原因之一是，他給了我

such strong, like, immigrant vibes.

這種強烈的，像移民的氛圍。

Even as a member of a Super Hero team.

即使是作為超級英雄團隊的一員。

Like, you're the ruler of a country.

比如，你是一個國家的統治者。

You come to another country, and all

你來到另一個國家，而所有

of a sudden, you're like, wait, I don't

突然間，你會覺得，等等，我沒有

get how things work here exactly, kind of wishing I

確切地瞭解這裡的工作情況，有點希望我

was back home.

是回家了。

As a child of immigrants myself, I knew what that was like that.

作為一個移民的孩子，我知道那是什麼樣子。

That made T'Challa feel familiar to me.

這讓我對T'Challa感到熟悉。

Then as I'm growing up, pursued a journalism degree and writing

然後隨著我的成長，攻讀了新聞學學位和寫作

about the stuff that I love, animation, comic books, movies,

關於我喜歡的東西，動畫、漫畫書、電影。

whatever, Black people, it was my actual writing

不管怎麼樣，黑人，這是我的實際寫作。

about Black Panther that came to the attention of the editors

引起編輯們注意的關於黑豹的報道

at Marvel. I was shook.

在Marvel。我感到很震驚。

I was scared.

我很害怕。

It was like, oh, OK, here's destiny knocking on your door.

這就像，哦，好吧，命運在這裡敲響了你的門。

What are you going to do?

你打算怎麼做？

Like, you're just put on a Do Not Disturb sign on?

就像，你只是掛上了一個請勿打擾的牌子？

No.

沒有。

I'm going to see what I can do with this character

我要看看我可以用這個角色做什麼

that I've loved so much.

我一直非常喜歡的。

When I was writing "Rise of the Black Panther,"

當我在寫 "黑豹的崛起 "時，

one of the core thematic questions for me was, like,

對我來說，其中一個核心的主題問題是，比如。

what do we do with what we inherit?

我們如何處理我們所繼承的東西？

Right?

對嗎？

Like, that's the question T'Challa faces.

比如，這就是特查拉麵臨的問題。

That's the question I personally was facing as a writer.

這是我個人作為一個作家所面臨的問題。

Talk to me about how you got on this book,

跟我說說你是如何走上這本書的。

how "Captain America:

如何 "美國隊長"。

Symbol of Truth" came about, and how much of your upbringing

真理的象徵 "的來歷，以及你的成長經歷有多少

did you bring to keep Sam Wilson feeling like a character

你是否為保持山姆-威爾遜的感覺而帶來了一個角色？

who's like a real-life Black person?

誰像現實生活中的黑人？

It would be impossible for me to write

我不可能寫

a Captain America book that was completely

一本美國隊長的書，完全是

divorced from social issues.

脫離了社會問題。

I, you know, after law school, I worked in public interest law.

我，你知道，在法學院畢業後，我在公共利益法領域工作。

I did civil rights work.

我做過民權工作。

The idea that Sam Wilson's background in the comics

漫畫中山姆-威爾遜的背景的想法

is as a social worker, I was like, oh, I know that.

是作為一個社會工作者，我當時想，哦，我知道。

I know that world, a social worker in Harlem.

我知道那個世界，是哈林區的一名社會工作者。

After law school, I lived in Harlem.

法學院畢業後，我住在哈林區。

Like, I was on 152nd Street.

比如，我當時在第152街。

I was in Sugar Hill, so, like--

我當時在Sugar Hill，所以，像...

I was like--

我當時就想...

I was on 120th and Lenox.

我在第120街和Lenox街。

There you go.

你去吧。

There you go.

你去吧。

So it really was--

所以這真的是...

it really was this cosmic choreography in terms

這真的是一種宇宙的編排，在這方面

of me getting on that book.

的我上了那本書。

How do you as an author continue to create narratives

作為一個作者，你如何繼續創造敘事？

that, like, go to all sorts of exciting places,

比如說，去各種令人興奮的地方。

but that are exciting not only to yourself,

但這不僅是對你自己的刺激。

but to your audience?

但對你的觀眾來說呢？

Like, do you think about your audience

比如，你是否考慮過你的觀眾

when you write these books?

當你寫這些書的時候？

Writing a character like T'Challa,

寫一個像T'Challa這樣的角色。

it's like, for a while, he was raised by a single parent,

這就像，有一段時間，他是由單親父母撫養長大的。

you know, like I was.

你知道，就像我一樣。

What is it like when somebody new comes into your life,

當有新的人進入你的生活時，是什麼樣的感覺。

like Ramonda?

像拉蒙達？

What is it like to mourn a parent?

悼念父母是什麼感覺？

And that's something that I feel like was

而這一點，我覺得是

so rarely explored in T'Challa's life, emotional life, right?

在T'Challa的生活中，情感生活中很少被探討，對嗎？

Like, N'Yami he didn't get to meet.

比如，他沒能見到的N'Yami。

What does that void do to you?

這種空虛對你有什麼影響？

You had a loving parent.

你有一個充滿愛的父母。

So it's serves as such a rich stand-in for the experiences

是以，它可以作為豐富的經驗的替身。

of Black people all over the world,

世界各地的黑人。

especially if you grow up in predominantly White

特別是當你在以白人為主的地方長大時

social systems, the sense of feeling embattled,

社會系統，感覺被包圍了。

trying to hold on to what it means

試圖堅守它的意義

to be a Black person in the present day and age, right?

在當今時代，成為一個黑人，對嗎？

Like I said before, the history of those who have gone

就像我之前說的，那些走了的人的歷史

before you, all that stuff just is

在你面前，所有這些東西只是

so potent in the fictional construct of,

虛構的結構中如此有力的。

like, Wakanda and T'Challa.

比如，瓦坎達和特查拉。

It feels like such a missed opportunity

感覺像是錯過了一個機會

if you don't do that stuff.

如果你不做這些事。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

The idea that, like, we get to invoke the multiplicity

這個想法，就像，我們可以調用多重性

of our lived experiences as Black people.

我們作為黑人的生活經驗。

Like, you and I have different paths,

就像，你和我有不同的道路。

different journeys, right?

不同的旅程，對嗎？

And one commonality we have is that like--

而我們的一個共同點是，像...

and it's a commonality we share with our forebearers,

而這是我們與我們的祖先的共同點。

is like we have to fight to get our voices heard.

就像我們必須通過鬥爭才能使我們的聲音被聽到。