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  • Hillary Clinton has been US Secretary of State, she's been Senator of New York, she's been

  • First Lady and she's odds on favourite to be the next and first female President of

  • the United States of America.

  • Her new memoir Hard Choices gives us a tantalising insight into her four years as America's premier

  • diplomat but Guardian readers, viewers and contributors just wanted to know more.

  • So Secretary Clinton, thank you so much for answering some of our questions.

  • Thank you so much for having me Phoebe.

  • OK, first up is a question from comedian Sarah Silverman.

  • OK.

  • I heard that when Bill was President you... you guys went on a trip to your home town

  • and you stopped at a gas station and the gas station attendant was a guy that you once

  • dated and as you drove away Bill was like: "I wonder what your life would have been like

  • if you stayed with him," and you were like: "Oh, he'd be President." So tell me that's

  • a true story.

  • Ha ha ha ha....

  • Oh, I hate to disappoint Sarah, who's very funny, but it's not a true story.

  • Oh no!

  • But it's a great story and it's one that I've heard before in different settings, so I want

  • to urge all the viewers to use it because it actually applies in a lot of different

  • situations.

  • OK, well sorry Sarah, but she's got a second question for you.

  • What's your plan when you are President with this women's rights stuff? What men would

  • ever put up with making laws about what they can and can't do with their bodies?

  • OK, so just to explain to those of us who may not be following this issue as carefully,

  • last week the US Supreme Court ruled that some companies can use their religious beliefs

  • as an exemption from paying for contraception for their employees as is mandated under the

  • affordable healthcare act. This follows a raft of quite radical personhood Bills that

  • would seek to criminalise abortion and some forms of contraception. Now, Secretary Clinton,

  • you've been campaigning for women's rights for more than 20 years, what do you plan to

  • do about these threats, this roll back on the right of American women to choose?

  • Well, I think it's outrageous and the Supreme Court decision was so deeply disturbing because

  • it was the first time that any decision was made which said, basically, that an employer's

  • religious beliefs could affect the health care available to women who were in the employment

  • of that employer. Absolutely a terrible decision that has so many implications even beyond

  • the core issues of women's rights. So we're going to have to keep our fight up, which

  • is what we've had to do for so many years in the United States. I'm pro-Choice because

  • I think that's the best position. If someone chooses to have an abortion or chooses not

  • to have an abortion, that is such a highly personal decision that that woman should make

  • based on her own faith beliefs, her own personal situation, her own medical condition. The

  • fight is not over in the United States and we're going to have to keep standing up for

  • women's rights and particularly reproductive health rights.

  • Next we have a question from Conservative MP Rory Stewart.

  • In many areas of the world it seems the lack of a strong government and legal system is

  • creating areas where terrorists are thriving. We've struggled for more than a decade to

  • deal with that threat, do you have a new theory on how we can address that threat?

  • Well, first I want to thank Rory Stewart for his excellent works in both Afghanistan and

  • Iraq, a lot of people paid a great deal of attention to what he had to write. I think

  • he's hit on the most difficult issue we face because the United States, the UK, Europe,

  • other countries cannot impose democracy, we have certainly learnt that lesson. But where

  • we have to do a better job is conveying the values that should be the birth-right of every

  • human being. These are universal values of freedom and opportunity, of equality, and

  • democracy is the best way to deliver on those values. So we have to stand up for people

  • who are exercising their human rights. There are other ways of doing it besides military

  • action. Sometimes military action is necessary but not always. We could do more to help support

  • political parties that are truly democratic. We could do more to help support institutions

  • like labour unions and others that play key roles in democracies and we could do more

  • to get information into societies about how they can help organise themselves. So i think

  • we've learned a lot of hard lessons the last 10-12 years that we need to be applying, going

  • forward.

  • OK, but when you came to the State Department, you came committed to aggressively going after

  • al Qaeda, now, in Iraq we have ISIS, an al Qaeda offshoot declaring a caliphate. Specifically

  • about Iraq, what would you do there?

  • Well, I think it's important to note that we did degrade al Qaeda, core al Qaeda, in

  • Afghanistan and Pakistan and I said from the very beginning that the philosophy, the ideology

  • underlying the Islamist extremism is one that was going to find fertile ground in other

  • places. So, in Iraq specifically, much of the problem is because the Sunni Iraqis have

  • made common cause with the extremists named ISIS because they were not included in the

  • government of Nouri al-Maliki in the way they should have been. Maliki really moved far

  • from what he had told us and others, including Iraqis, he would do as Prime Minister. And

  • he, in fact, purged the government, he purged the military forces, so a lot of the Sunnis

  • are saying: "Well, we're going to combine with ISIS to try to put pressure on Maliki

  • and then we'll take care of ISIS. The problem with that idea is that the last time they

  • tried to do that, the United States military helped them to do that because they didn't

  • have the resources to be able to take on al Qaeda in Iraq. We joined together, we got

  • rid of al Qaeda in Iraq. Now the government in Iraq and the military in Iraq needs to

  • integrate the Sunnis to take on this threat from ISIS.

  • And how would you help that? What would you do?

  • Well, we are helping. We, you know, President Obama has sent several hundred technical advisers

  • and surveillance experts, we're providing intelligence, we are working with the people

  • that we have worked with before to try to help them, frankly, organise better to be

  • able to take on this threat. But it is, at bottom, it is an Iraqi problem. They had a

  • very reasonable chance to build a unified Iraq, they wouldn't pass laws to give the

  • Kurds the autonomy they deserved and they wouldn't pass laws that would guarantee revenues

  • from oil and they made a lot of other decisions that were not in the best interests of a unified

  • Iraq. So yes, you have to work on the immediate threat and try to do everything we can to

  • stop that, but you also have to work on the political problems that are underlying the

  • extent of the threat.

  • And yet these are extremists who pose a threat to the rest of the world as well. I mean,

  • two years ago we discovered that the British government was offered a proposal to train

  • 100,000 moderate Syrian rebels and the British government turned this down. This was very

  • similar to a plan that you proposed to President Obama, which was also turned down.

  • Right.

  • Were you aware of this proposal to the British government and was it a catastrophic mistake

  • and a missed opportunity not to go with it?

  • Well, I'm not aware of the specifics about any proposal to the British government but,

  • like our government I knew there was a debate because I was advocating for trying to vet

  • and train and arm Syrian moderates because, remember, this dispute with Assad rose out

  • of the very legitimate concerns that Syrians themselves had. Unfortunately, in the debate,

  • you couldn't say conclusively like: "If you do this, we'll get that result." But, I thought

  • it was a good bet. Now, what we see is our government and others beginning to train moderates

  • to try to stem the tide of the extremism, because it's not just ISIS, it's a whole range

  • of these al Qaeda wannabe offshoots that we have to worry about.

  • OK, great, thank you. We have our next question from Owen Jones, who is a Guardian columnist.

  • You're a loving parent. What would you say to the loving parents of up to 202 children

  • who have been killed by drones in Pakistan in a programme which you escalated as Secretary

  • of State?

  • Well, I would argue with the premise because clearly the efforts that were made by the

  • United States in cooperation with our allies in Afghanistan, and certainly the Afghan government,

  • to prevent the threat that was in Pakistan from crossing the border, killing Afghans,

  • killing Americans, Brits and others, was aimed at targets that had been identified and were

  • considered to be threats. The numbers about potential civilian casualties I take with

  • a somewhat big grain of salt because there have been other studies, which have proven

  • there not to have been the number of civilian casualties, but also in comparison to what,

  • you know, the Pakistani armed services was always saying: "Well, let us bomb these places."

  • That would have been far more devastating in terms of casualties. But, of course, anyone

  • who is an innocent bystander, especially a child, who's caught up in any operation against

  • terrorists, that is a cause of great concern and it's a cause of real disappointment and

  • regret on our part. But I would hasten to add that the Pakistanis themselves are the

  • primary victims of Islamist terrorism. More that 30,000 people, civilian and military

  • alike, have been blown up in markets and mosques and airports and so many other places. And

  • so, these extremist elements are a very real threat to the stability and lives of Pakistanis

  • and their government to people across the border in Afghanistan and, of course, to Americans

  • and others, who are trying to help end that kind of terrorism.

  • So, when you took the job of Secretary of State, despite some misgivings initially,

  • you thought that it was absolutely necessary to restore America's standing, it's reputation

  • in the world, which had been damaged under the Bush administration and yet, according

  • to Pew research figures, actually during your period, your tenure as Secretary of State,

  • some of the approval ratings in countries that were focuses of foreign policy, such

  • as: Pakistan, Egypt, China, even the UK, approval ratings for the US actually fell. How is it

  • that you can justify the argument that it's America that needs to go in and solve the

  • world's problems when, in fact, US exceptionalism gets so many people's backcs up.

  • Well, this is an inherent contradiction because, of course, when America acts in furtherance

  • of our values, our interests and our security, there's not going to be universal popularity

  • and when we don't act, that is not going to be universally popular. So it's a constant

  • balancing. What do we do? How far do we go? Now, clearly President Obama totally rejected

  • the Bush unilateralism: invading Iraq, imposing a different system on the Iraqis. In Afghanistan

  • there was universal support in our country for going after al Qaeda and the Taleban who

  • were taking care of them inside Afghanistan because of the attack on 9-11. So, it's not

  • a popularity contest but it is an effort to restore our leadership in a way that gets

  • problems solved and eventually is understood by people. So, in the countries that you mentioned,

  • our approval ratings in Pakistan have always been low, our approval ratings in Egypt have

  • always been low and part of that is a very active disinformation campaign. Like, if you

  • look at Pakistan, for example, the United States gives more humanitarian aid, development

  • assistance than every other country put together but there are very serious objections to American

  • involvement because we also work with India and we consider India a very strong partner

  • of ours. We also push the Pakistani government to go after al Qaeda. I said, famously: "Somebody

  • in this government knows where al Qaeda is!" And it turns out he was right there in a military

  • town in Pakistan. So, yeah, we, we stand up for our values but we also seek common ground

  • and it's going to be a constant balancing act and I think, certainly the Obama administration

  • has been much better received than the prior administration.

  • OK, great, thank you. Next up there's a question from our editor, Alan Rusbridger.

  • The new head of the NSA has said that the sky didn't fall in as a result of the Snowden

  • allegations. Do you think, in the end, it was a healthy thing to have this discussion

  • and do you think that Edward Snowden ought to be able to return to the US with some kind

  • of public interest defence so that he can defend his actions but the administration

  • can take a view over his behaviour?

  • Well, I would say, first of all, that Edward Snowden broke our laws and that can not be

  • ignored or brushed aside. Secondly, I believe that if his primary concern was stirring a

  • debate in our country over the tension between privacy and security, there are other ways

  • of doing it, instead of stealing an enormous amount of information that had nothing to

  • do with the US or American citizens. I would say thirdly that there are many people in

  • our history who have raised serious questions about government behaviour. They've done it

  • either with or without whistleblower protection and they have stood and faced whatever the

  • reaction was to make their case in public. Mr Snowden took all this material, he fled

  • to Hong Kong, he spent time with the Russians in their consulate, then he went to Moscow

  • seeking the protection of Vladimir Putin, which is the height of ironies given the surveillance

  • state that Russia is. If he wishes to return home, knowing that he would be held accountable

  • but also be able to present a defence, that is his decision to make. But, I know that

  • our intelligence forces are doing what they can to understand exactly what was taken and

  • the debate about how to better balance security and liberty was already going on before he

  • fled. The President had already given a speech, members of the Senate were already talking

  • about it, so I don't give him credit for the debate. I think he may have raised the visibility

  • of the debate but the debate had already begun.

  • Sure, but if he does return to the United States. If he "mans up" as John Kerry has

  • asked him to do, he'll be charged under the Espionage Act and he doesn't have recourse

  • to a defence, let alone a public interest defence. How do you think his case should

  • be handled if he does come back? Do you think there should be an alteration to the Espionage

  • Act in order to give him this opportunity to give a defence?

  • Well, I don't know what he's been charged with, those were sealed indictments. I've

  • no idea what he's been charged with. I'm not sure he knows what he's been charged with.

  • But even, in any case that I'm aware of as a former lawyer, he has the right to mount

  • a defence and he certainly has the right to mount both a legal defence and a public defence,

  • which of course can affect the legal defence. Whether he returns or not is up to him. He

  • certainly can stay in Russia, apparently under Putin's protection, for the rest of his life

  • if that's what he chooses, but if he's serious about engaging in the debate then he could

  • take the opportunity to come back and have that debate. But that's his decision. I'm

  • not making a judgment one way or the other.

  • OK, but you mentioned that there would be other legal courses of action for him to take.

  • Now, in terms of the NSA, we are aware of at least a handful of other NSA analysts,

  • Bill Binney among them, who did try to take the legal courses for several years and expressed

  • their concerns about the extent of NSA surveillance. They ended up with their homes ransacked by

  • the FBI, charges of indictment against them and their careers were essentially left in

  • tatters. Can you understand then, with those precedents, why Snowden thought his only recourse

  • was to go to the media?

  • No, I really don't. I have to just tell you my opinion. I don't. I think there were certainly

  • members of the Senate that were already raising issues and we do have a history of people

  • going, not to the media, going to members of Congress, where in effect they are given

  • a certain protective shield because they are working with elected representatives of our

  • country. But the other issue, which has never been satisfactorily answered to me is, if

  • his main concern was what was happening inside the United States, then why did he take so

  • much about what was happening with Russia, with China, with Iran, with al Qaeda? That's

  • the part that most objective observers, who might very well say: "Well, he might very

  • have helped the debate on what our laws should be and how we should be thinking about this,

  • but then, what was he doing dwnloading all the rest of this stuff that could only help

  • Chinese surveillance, Russian surveillance, al Qaeda and their methods and communication.

  • That's never been answered and I don't know the answer to that.

  • I mean, but what it did reveal, was the huge extent of American surveillance globally.

  • I mean, you've described the US as leaders in internet freedom, you've criticised China

  • for attempting to hack into Google, even Russians as well, having to leave your mobile phone

  • on a plane because of their aggressive intelligence and yet, it's the US, more than anyone else

  • that's invested, what is it? $75 billion in the private companies that are helping the

  • NSA in this global spying network. I mean, why is it that it's one rule for America and

  • another for the rest of the world?

  • Well, as an American because I honestly believe that our acquisition of information saves

  • lives and protects not just the United States but our friends and our allies. Right now,

  • you know very well here in the UK, we have a serious, credible threat about terrorists

  • getting on airplanes, going to the United States, intending to blow them up. That didn't

  • happen by accident that this is a credible threat. I mean, I think it would be shocking

  • to most people if the United States stopped gathering information and we basically said:

  • "OK, everybody you're on your own, we can't tell our allies in Asia what's happening,

  • we can't share information with our allies in Europe, we're going to stop. Well, that's

  • just not the way the real world works and we do have to have more restraints and, as

  • I say, that debate is going on and I think we're making some good changes at home but

  • when it comes to the information competition that exists between the West and the rest,

  • I think it would be an abdication of responsibility not to be gathering information that we can

  • use to protect ourselves and, as I say, our friends and allies.

  • OK, thank you for that. we have one question from Arianna Huffington, who's the editor-in-chief

  • of the Huffington Post.

  • I know Arianna.

  • After you left the Obama administration, you told the New York Times that your first order

  • of business was to get "untired". Did you get "untired"? And if so, how did you do it?

  • And one follow up: what lessons have you learnt about over-work and burnout over the years

  • that could help other women?

  • Well, I appreciate Arianna's question because, you know, she's just written a really good

  • book called Thrive, in which she recounts her experience and others because, you know,

  • we all live these 24/7 lives, we're working so hard. It's an intense, stressful environment

  • that we put ourselves in, nobody says you must go and operate at this high level but

  • we choose to do so. I knew that I had to get off the airplane as Secretary of State. That

  • I had been truly on the highwire of politics and diplomacy for more than 20 years and it

  • was time to just let down and that's exaclty what I've done. I've had the most enjoyable

  • and restful time. By my standards, I wouldn't recommend it for otehrs but, just by mine.

  • We live in a little renovated farmhouse, north of New York City. We have three dogs. We go

  • for long walks. In the summertime we have a fabulous garden and it's just been wonderful

  • being able to breathe deeply, take yoga, learn to breathe better and all that. So, I thought

  • Arianna's admonition really that other women, in particular, because that's who her book

  • is aimed at, need to just find more time to let down, to relax, to take time for yourself

  • and I fully endorse that.

  • OK, now, obviously you're not going to tell us whether you're going to run for President

  • or not but you've admitted that it's going to be a 24/7, absolutely energy draining exercise

  • if you do. Can you tell us at least, what do Bill and Chelsea say about the idea of

  • that? You're about to be a grandmother, what do they say about it?

  • You know, Phoebe, they both say the same thing, that it's really such a personal decision

  • - and they know better than most how personal it is because you have to reach deep down

  • inside to decide whether or not you want to do it and are ready to suit up and do it again.

  • So, they've said: "Whatever you decide!" They will support it and part of why I haven't

  • made up my mind is because I want to really feel my way toward the decision. This is not

  • an intelliectual decision. I mean, I know what I believe about what we need to do about

  • the economy to help Americans get back on their feet, what we need to do to fix our

  • political system... I understand what I think has to be done but it's not just having a

  • vision of where you would go, but can you lead us there? What is required? And I just

  • have to feel my way to that and, as you said, I'm going to be a grandmother. I want to be

  • fully focused on that experience because, first time grandmother, I'm really looking

  • forward to it. So, I'm not in any hurry. You know, that's one of teh problems with American

  • politics. It goes on forever and here we are talking about something two and a half years

  • away. We actually have an election in November, which I want people to pay attention to, so

  • I'm just going to bide my time.

  • OK. OK, well listen, we've had so many questions that we wanted to ask you and we've run out

  • of time. So, I was wondering if we could just finish with a really quick, quickfire round.

  • Sure.

  • So, we're just looking for one sentence answers, maximum.

  • OK, I'll try.

  • You ready?

  • Yes.

  • OK, great. Filmmaker Richard Curtis wants to know what you think is the best American

  • comedy of all time?

  • Oh my God! Oh! Oh! My brain! I'm freezing up. There's so many that I've laughed at for

  • so long.

  • The one you saw most recently, what was your favourite recent comedy?

  • My favourite recent comedy? Well, you know, I keep thinking. I keep going back to Mel

  • Brooks, who I watch anything with Mel Brooks so you know, Carl Reiner. Let me just say

  • that Brooks and Reiner have made me laugh for many years.

  • Great, OK. What's the trait you most deplore in yourself?

  • Ugh, let me see. Probably... I have a long list, let me check through it. Probably my

  • lack of willpower about getting in shape. I mean I've got great willpower about everything

  • else and I know I need to do more cardio and all the rest of that, so that's probably what

  • I deplore the most.

  • OK, great. Who is your hero?

  • Nelson Mandela.

  • Who would play you in a film of your life?

  • Huh! Well, if Ihad a choice it would be Meryll Streep, of course!

  • If you do become President will you shut Guantanamo?

  • Yes, I wanted to shut it as Secretary of State.

  • Great, what's the last thing you cooked?

  • Scrambled eggs.

  • Great. Final one: tell us a joke.

  • Oh my God! Well... (laughs) The joke that Sarah told I would repeat. I'm not a very

  • good joke teller. I love jokes and I laugh a lot at jokes but I always mess them up so

  • I will try to preserve my reputation as being, you know, somewhat humourless and jokeless

  • by not trying to tell one.

  • (Laughter)

  • Secretary Clinton it's been so fantastic to talk to you. Thank you so much for your time

  • and best of luck with whatever it is the choice that you make.

  • Thank you, these are hard choices we're talking about! Thank you Phoebe.

  • Thank you very much.

Hillary Clinton has been US Secretary of State, she's been Senator of New York, she's been

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希拉里-克林頓2014年的採訪。愛德華-斯諾登、ISIS、無人機襲擊和婦女權利。 (Hillary Clinton interview 2014: Edward Snowden, ISIS, drone strikes & women's rights)

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    Anne Sheu 發佈於 2021 年 01 月 14 日
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