in Moscow, Mikhail Gorbachev was the last leader of the Soviet Union

在莫斯科，米哈伊爾-戈爾巴喬夫是蘇聯的最後一位領導人。

who sought to usher in an era of openness from behind the Iron Curtain.

他試圖從鐵幕後開創一個開放的時代。

But just over six years later, the Soviet Union was no more ending

但僅僅6年多以後，蘇聯就不再是過去式了。

the defining conflict of the post war era.

這是戰後時代的決定性衝突。

Christmas Day 1991 the hammer and sickle. The red banner of the disintegrating

1991年的聖誕日，錘子和鐮刀。瓦解的紅色旗幟

Soviet Union is lowered for the last time over the Kremlin. The last

蘇聯在克里姆林宮上空最後一次降下。最後一次

general secretary of the Soviet Communist Party, Mikhail Gorbachev,

蘇聯共產黨總書記米哈伊爾-戈爾巴喬夫。

addressed his people

對他的人民說

situation which follows the establishment of the Commonwealth of

在建立英聯邦後的局勢

Independent States.

獨立國家。

I hereby cease to act as the president of the Soviet Union.

我在此停止作為蘇聯總統的行動。

Gorbachev and his dying regime had survived a coup attempt just a

戈爾巴喬夫和他垂死掙扎的政權在一次政變中倖存下來。

few months earlier. But the long and cold road that led to that December

幾個月前。但導致那年12月的漫長而寒冷的道路

day was years decades in the making 40 years of cold War between

這一天的到來是幾十年來的事。

the US and Russia, both with enough weapons to destroy the planet

美國和俄羅斯，都有足夠的武器來摧毀地球

many times over.

多次了。

Early 19 eighties were among the most frigid days of that cold war

19世紀80年代初是那場冷戰中最寒冷的日子之一

with the new American president Ronald Reagan, who made his name

與新任美國總統羅納德-里根，他的名字是

as an anti communist. He proposed major defense increases and ratcheted

作為一個反共產主義者。他提議大幅增加國防開支，並提高了

up the denunciations of Moscow and beginning with the 1982 death

譴責莫斯科，並從1982年的死亡開始。

of long time leader Leonid Brezhnev came to more old guard Soviet

的長期領導人列昂尼德-勃列日涅夫來到更多守舊的蘇聯

leaders.

領導人。

Both died in office quickly into this leadership Vacuum stepped 54

兩人都是在任上去世，很快就進入了這個領導層的真空期，54

year old Mikhail Gorbachev unanimously elected party head in March

年的米哈伊爾-戈爾巴喬夫在3月被一致推選為黨魁。

of 1985. He was the youngest member of the Politburo and became the

1985年的時候。他是政治局中最年輕的成員，併成為了政治局委員。

first and only Soviet leader. Born after the 1917 revolution, he

第一個也是唯一一個蘇聯領導人。他出生於1917年革命之後。

set out to reform an ossified and corrupt system likely beyond reform.

著手改革一個僵化和腐敗的系統，很可能無法改革。

He had two main platforms, one pair historica or restructuring,

他有兩個主要的平臺，一個是對historica或改組。

We need more enterprise, more democracy, more organization and discipline.

我們需要更多的企業，更多的民主，更多的組織和紀律。

Then we will be able to bring perestroika up to full speed and give

然後，我們將能夠使改革開放全速發展，並給

new impetus to developing socialism would meet President Reagan the

形成發展社會主義的新動力，這將滿足里根總統的要求。

next year in Iceland for the first of several hugely consequential

明年在冰島舉行的幾個具有重大影響的會議中的第一個會議。

summit over nuclear weapon matters.

峰會上的核武器問題。

The adversaries became allies in this effort, with Reagan's famous

在這一努力中，對手變成了盟友，里根著名的

motto leading the Way Trust but verify.

帶路的格言 信任但要核實。

All the while Reagan kept up the pressure, dubbing the Soviets the

與此同時，里根一直保持著壓力，將蘇聯稱為 "世界上最好的國家"。

evil empire and making this demand in West Berlin in front of the

邪惡的帝國，並在西柏林當面提出這一要求。

Berlin Wall, Mr Gorbachev

柏林牆，戈爾巴喬夫先生

Tear down this wall.

拆掉這堵牆。

In 1989, the Berlin Wall began to crumble the death throes of more

1989年，柏林牆開始倒塌，更多的人開始了死亡的掙扎。

than 40 years of communist domination that would end with Gorbachev

超過40年的共產主義統治將隨著戈爾巴喬夫的到來而結束。

leaving office that cold Christmas night. He died today in Moscow.

在那個寒冷的聖誕之夜離開辦公室。他今天在莫斯科去世。

He was 91 years old.

他已經91歲了。

For more on Mikhail Gorbachev's legacy. We turn to Andrew Weiss,

關於米哈伊爾-戈爾巴喬夫的遺產的更多資訊。我們轉向安德魯-魏斯。

he served in the George H. W. Bush and Clinton administrations at

他曾在喬治-H-W-布什和克林頓的政府中任職。

the Pentagon, National Security Council staff and the State Department.

五角大樓、國家安全委員會工作人員和國務院。

He's now vice president for studies at Carnegie Endowment for International

他現在是卡內基國際基金會的研究副主席。

Peace. A think tank Andrew Weiss. Welcome back to the news hour.

和平。一個智囊團安德魯-魏斯。歡迎回到新聞時間。

Thanks for being with us. It has been said that very few leaders

謝謝你和我們在一起。有人說，很少有領導人

have in modern history have had the kind of impact that Mikhail Gorbachev

在現代歷史上有過這樣的影響，米哈伊爾-戈爾巴喬夫

did.

做了。

Do you agree with that? Is that a fair assessment?

你同意這一點嗎？這是一個公平的評估嗎？

It's a very fair assessment. When Gorbachev came into power in 1985,

這是一個非常公平的評估。1985年戈爾巴喬夫上臺後。

the Soviet Union was a formidable multinational empire, and it had

蘇聯是一個強大的多國帝國，而且它有

it had an enormous external empire in Eastern Europe, and by the

它在東歐擁有一個巨大的外部帝國，並且到了

time he left office, the Soviet Union was no more and the countries

在他離任的時候，蘇聯已經不復存在，而各國都在為自己的利益著想。

of Central Europe were independent. So it was a remarkable mixed

中歐獨立了。是以，這是一個顯著的混合

legacy policies. We mentioned perestroika and glasnost. What should

遺留政策。我們提到了改革開放和格拉斯諾斯特。什麼應該

be understand about those what was behind Gorbachev's push for

我們要理解戈爾巴喬夫推動 "一帶一路 "的背後是什麼。

Those reforms.

這些改革。

So when Gorbachev took power, the Soviet Union was basically a stagnating

所以當戈爾巴喬夫上臺時，蘇聯基本上是一個停滯不前的

society, which in the eyes of the Soviet leadership needed to keep

社會，在蘇聯領導層看來，需要保持

up with the West. But Gorbachev unleashed these reforms. Paris troika

與西方接軌。但戈爾巴喬夫釋放了這些改革。巴黎三駕馬車

the policy of trying to introduce new, more democratic governance

試圖引入新的、更民主的治理的政策

and some form of a market economy, as well as glass nose to try to

和某種形式的市場經濟，以及玻璃鼻子來嘗試

open up some of the dark spots in Soviet history.

揭開蘇聯歷史上的一些黑點。

It was his idea that that would somehow humanize or modernize the

他的想法是，這將在某種程度上使人性或現代化。

Soviet system. In the end, it proved to be the undoing of the Soviet

蘇聯系統。最後，它被證明是蘇聯的敗筆。

system. It was an unreformed able system, and Gorbachev didn't seem

系統。這是一個未經改革的能動系統，戈爾巴喬夫似乎並沒有

to really understand that. At the beginning, he kept improvising.

以真正理解這一點。一開始，他不斷地即興創作。

And as the improvised things only got worse, and that basically spelled

而隨著即興創作的進行，事情只會變得更糟，而這基本上意味著

the demise both of Gorbachev's political career as well as the Soviet

戈爾巴喬夫的政治生涯和蘇維埃社會主義共和國的滅亡。

system itself.

系統本身。

How is he viewed by the US at the time? How did the Reagan administration

當時的美國是如何看待他的？里根政府是如何

view his reforms with skepticism?

對他的改革持懷疑態度？

At the end at the outset, the Greg an administration was quite skeptical.

最後在一開始，格雷格政府是相當懷疑的。

But then British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher helped convinced

但後來英國首相撒切爾夫人幫助說服了

her counterpart Ronald Reagan. The Gorbachev was someone you could

她的同僚羅納德-里根。戈爾巴喬夫是一個你可以

do business with, and the two leaders did remarkably important work

這兩位領導人做了非常重要的工作。

on strategic nuclear arms control. And then when President Bush,

在戰略核軍備控制方面。然後，當布什總統

the elder president, Bush came into office

老總統布什上任後

They ensured that the Soviet empires, dismantlement and central and

他們確保了蘇維埃帝國、解體和中央及

Eastern and central Europe would be peaceful and that those countries,

東歐和中歐將是和平的，這些國家。

including Germany, which was allowed to reunify could go their own

包括德國在內的被允許統一的國家可以走自己的路。

way. That was a remarkable achievement. But at the same time, Gorbachev's,

辦法。這是一個了不起的成就。但與此同時，戈爾巴喬夫的。

uh, policies toward the components of the Soviet Union what were

呃，對蘇聯的組成部分的政策是什麼？

then known as the Republic's really tarnished his reputation in the

當時被稱為 "共和國的 "真正損害了他的聲譽。

eyes of US officials.

美國官員的眼睛。

Andrew, A Kremlin spokesperson has since put out a statement saying

安德魯，克里姆林宮發言人後來發表聲明說

that President Putin is expressing his deepest condolences on Gorbachev's

普京總統對戈爾巴喬夫去世表示最深切的哀悼。

passing. We know that Putin has called the collapse of the Soviet

經過。我們知道，普京將蘇聯的崩潰稱為

Union, the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century.

聯盟，這是20世紀最大的地緣政治災難。

Do we know what the two men thought of each other?

我們知道這兩個人對彼此的看法嗎？

So Gorbachev towards the end of his life was rather, Harris is a

是以，戈爾巴喬夫在他生命的最後階段是相當，哈里斯是一個

complicated figure who didn't uh, for example, speak out against

複雜的人物，比如說，他沒有大聲地反對

the war in Ukraine. But But if you look back at some of the things,

烏克蘭的戰爭。但是，但如果你回顧一下一些事情。

he said about Putin earlier on, and particularly struck by a comedy

他早些時候對普京的評價，特別是對一則喜劇印象深刻。

made in 2011, where he compared Putin, who at that point was thinking

他在2011年發表的一篇文章中對普京進行了比較，當時他正在思考

of coming back in the Kremlin in 2011, with an African dictator who

在2011年回到克里姆林宮，與一位非洲獨裁者在一起。

had held onto power too much for too long and what Gorbachev said

掌握權力太久了，戈爾巴喬夫說的是什麼？

at that point, I think was very poignant.

在這一點上，我認為是非常悽美的。

He said. The only thing that's important in such situations for those

他說。在這種情況下，唯一重要的是對那些

leaders and the people around them is holding onto power. I believe

領導人和他們周圍的人是在掌握權力。我相信

that something similar is happening in our country right now.

類似的事情現在正在我們國家發生。

What about his reputation in Russia? How is he viewed there?

他在俄羅斯的聲譽如何？他在那裡是如何被看待的？

Gorbachev was wildly unpopular. And in Russia, he was seen as a person

戈爾巴喬夫是非常不受歡迎的。而在俄羅斯，他被看作是一個

who had basically ruined the country had pulled it apart had removed

基本上毀掉了這個國家的人把它拆散了，把它移走了。

its, uh, its ability to sustain itself. The economy was in shambles.

它的，呃，它維持自身的能力。經濟處於崩潰狀態。

By the time he was forced from power, and in many ways the popularity

到了他被迫下臺的時候，在許多方面，他的人氣

Gorbachev enjoyed in the West was simply not. You can't find people

戈爾巴喬夫在西方享有的待遇是根本沒有的。你不可能找到人

it except for a very small number of Russian liberals. Who would

除了極少數的俄羅斯自由主義者之外。誰會

who would speak so warmly about him today?

誰會在今天如此熱烈地談論他？

So many events of enormous consequence during his leadership, Andrew

在他的上司下，發生了這麼多具有巨大影響的事件，安德魯

in the In the few moments we have left, is it Is there any way to

在我們所剩無幾的時間裡，是否有任何方法可以讓我們的生活更美好？

kind of sum up what you believe his legacy is today?

你認為他今天的遺產是什麼？

I think that Gorbachev ignited seminal reforms inside the Soviet

我認為戈爾巴喬夫在蘇聯內部點燃了開創性的改革。

Union, as well as in the event. What was called the Warsaw Pact the

聯盟，以及事件中。被稱為華沙條約的the

Soviet satellite countries in central and Eastern Europe. And that

中歐和東歐的蘇聯衛星國。而這

is probably the single most important part of his legacy is his achievements

他的遺產中最重要的部分可能是他的成就。

at home, though, are far more complicated, and I think that we're

不過，國內的情況要複雜得多，我認為我們正在

still dealing frankly, with the wreckage of the Soviet Union today,

今天仍然坦率地處理蘇聯的殘骸。

with the horrible war that's going on in Ukraine.

在烏克蘭發生的可怕的戰爭中。

Andrew Weiss from the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace

卡內基國際和平基金會的安德魯-魏斯

on the Life and Legacy of Mikhail Gorbachev. Andrew Thank You always

關於米哈伊爾-戈爾巴喬夫的生活和遺產。安德魯 感謝你總是

good to talk to you.

很高興與你交談。